Metro Jacksonville

We're here.

Denise Lee is absent today.

Redman and our very own Ock were being interviewed earlier by Action News.  ALL major media outlets are packing Conf Room A in City Council's office

Redman says 'we need drastic action'

Jeniffer Hewitt Apperson of DVI:

Making the park clean,safe and attractive.  Program the heck out of it for a variety of users.

Quote from: stephendare on October 23, 2012, 03:32:13 PM

Quote from: TheCat on October 23, 2012, 03:31:09 PM
We're here.

Bill Gulliford opened with a speech thats basically a pish posh on all this attention to the subject.  "Slow News Day" is how he characterized it.

Gulliford reads Metro Jacksonville?  Cool.

Redman:  We have other cities that are giving people bus tickets to homeless.  We don't need the reputation of being the homeless capital of the world.

This is a very tense environment in this room today.

Officer Michelle Cook (zone commander), she says "downtown is safe but the perception is that crime is bad...in police work perception is reality."

So...we're legislating based on a false perception.

Redman, spoke a few minutes earlier, he said, essentially, we need to get rid of the people. It's time for drastic measures to send a message.

-send a message to who?

Mark Crammer - has taken the "stage" uninvited. He is on two committees:1) to recall the mayor 2) international boycot on the city of jacksonville.

--this guy is pissed/frustrated. He is saying to Redman "you make your drastic decisions and you will be met with others making their drastic decisions to confront you. Sounds like a call to arms but its more of a call to say "f*&$ You!"

SHADCO rep saying that we need to better integrate the surrounding uses.  Sorry did not catch her name. 

She wants it to be a 'controlled area' not a park. 

I'm not sure her name...but she is giving a visionary speech for hemming park...but I'm not hearing the vision...just a lot of compelling cadence and almost anecdotes...where is this going? Gulliford, nods his head, looks away, he does not know what she is talking about.

She also wants to strip away the racial undertones in the conversation and have a civil discourse on the matter.

'Urban renewal not urban removal.'

Stop kicking the can down the road and build a city for everybody.

This has become a circus. 

Quote from: fieldafm on October 23, 2012, 03:39:41 PM
Redman:  We have other cities that are giving people bus tickets to homeless.  We don't need the reputation of being the homeless capital of the world.

This is a very tense environment in this room today.

EXPLOSIVE. The 'homeless guy' that I invited is speaking. He's a member of the longshoreman union, has a job, has a house, and plays cards in the park. So much for the 'homeless, plague.

A gentleman is up saying now 'The problem is not at the park, the crime is happening in different areas around downtown.'

'How do you differentiate who is undesirable'

Undesirables?  An element that flaunts how bad they are, and challenges everyone.

UH?

I just spent an hour walking from table to table (with a mac book in my hand) and only one guy asked me anything; 'Sir, do you have the time?'

There will be a request for information to see if anyone will manage the park according to Gulliford.  No mention of an RFP or budget. 

Gulliford, says the meeting will be closed in 15 minutes. He's leaving.

--Public comments are a formality.

Mr. John: yes, it is about renewal. If Jacksonville has a great system for the homeless why are they in hemming park. It is extreme to remove furniture. The crime does not happen in hemming park it happens in the landing. It happens at shands. It happens at the church. Who are the undesirables?

Gulliford responds: we do not have undesirables. we have a certain element of people that are aggressive and confrontational. The reason we are going after gaming is to send a message to the people who are aggressive. This is not a homeless issue it is a conduct issue.

Another gentleman says there needs to be public restroom facilities so that the Library won't become the defacto restroom.

Noone is taking pictures.

Looks like a bad case of nerves, making excuses to escape from the crowd.

Stephen Dare up now.

We can't change the behavior of a few people by destroying the physical environment.

We are now living with the results of taking away amenities for decades.

You make it uncomfortable for the entire public by taking away amenities of a very few. 

Stephen is handing them their ass. 'You won't make it more useful by taking away all of the amenities. Its not in our best interest to shut down a park to control people.'

There are about 40 people in the room and another dozen spilling into the hallway. 

Quote from: TheCat on October 23, 2012, 03:50:50 PM
Gulliford responds: we do not have undesirables. we have a certain element of people that are aggressive and confrontational. The reason we are going after gaming is to send a message to the people who are aggressive. This is not a homeless issue it is a conduct issue.

This makes no sense. Stopping people from playing Chess sends a message to aggressive and confrontational individuals?  That's a new level of planning that I'm not aware of.

Short, 30 minute meeting.  Pretty explosive environment with lots of heated tempers exploding. 

It was a spectacle.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 23, 2012, 03:58:30 PM
This makes no sense. Stopping people from playing Chess sends a message to aggressive and confrontational individuals?  That's a new level of planning that I'm not aware of.

I hear it was recently added to the AICP exam ;)

Quote from: fieldafm on October 23, 2012, 03:58:09 PM
There are about 40 people in the room and another dozen spilling into the hallway.

I was in the hallway, with half of Hemming Park.

What was the point of the meeting?  It seems like it was a complete waste of time.

I counted over 60 people and there were definitely more. The fact that the chair of the meeting was a no show certainly didn't help. Hope everyone filled out the sign in sheet because that is the official record.

There will be another meeting.

Lots of good discussion but no action taken.

Thelakelander, yes...it was meaningless (some good conversations afterwards as the owner of Kona was able to get a few the council members to think outside of the box regarding Hemming).

Gulliford, who claimed he had to leave for another meeting cut the hemming meeting short then came back into the room where we were lingering within ten minutes.

Denise Lee did not show up and Gulliford did not want to be the impromptu chair of the meeting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Denise Lee skipped the meeting on purpose because she was not expecting so many people to voice shock and opposition.

Her office literally told someone who called to get information about the meeting that they would be wasting their time if they showed up. That the meeting was just a formality...etc. That there wouldn't even be time for public comments.

So, I'm not sure what the purpose of the meeting but maybe Denise Lee is incredibly cunning. If people came to this meeting and left thinking it was a waste of their time maybe they won't show up to the next one...?

Or, maybe she wasn't expecting a large crowd of "fired" up people and every media outlet in the city to be present.

Or, she was just running late...which I have experienced with her on more than one occasion.

Either way, that's totally disrespectful to the people who showed up to be heard and provide input.

Couldn’t go, but just read the posts.  It sounds like there was good energy.  Love it.  Even though the meeting was cut short, partially because of the absence of Denise Lee, we made a strong impression as to our willingness to oppose the frivolous removal of the oaks, the tables, chairs, and benches, and any rules against playing chess and other games.

Perhaps now, those with interests in park decisions will finally understand that it makes little sense to attempt solving any problems at the park by degrading it, removing amenities in it, or restricting behavior in it.

I continue to believe that the new day center, once open, will go a long way in decreasing the “occupy” population in the park, thereby opening the door so that others can gradually begin to use it.  The new users will balance and normalize the park, making it difficult for the “occupy” condition to return.

I sense that the subject has become a little awkward for Lee, Gulliford, and Redman.  They probably don’t know how to handle the building opposition to what’s been suggested for solutions.

Love it. This means we might get our way, which will be to keep most of the oaks, the tables, the benches, and the ability to play games and chess.  Thanks to those who attend the meetings to voice opinions, the park will be free from full or partial destruction.

Thanks to all who could and did go.  What I saw from what was posted was three council members who could care less what the public wants, they will take this onward to council of that is the next step.  Redman doesn't care about anyone that isn't "his kind of person", Lee doesn't care about anyone but herself, and Gulliford always just seems a bit lost to me.  Is this a prime item for an "emergency"?  Do these few "council people" have enough support among their peers to do it?

Thanks to everyone who attended and took notes for us who couldn't be there. In the future would it be possible to film it or take so some photos? I assume yes since it's public record.

Quote from: coredumped on October 23, 2012, 06:45:42 PM
Thanks to everyone who attended and took notes for us who couldn't be there. In the future would it be possible to film it or take so some photos? I assume yes since it's public record.

Noone took some photos which I imagine he will post.  I was standing at the door, amused by the sight of stephendare, thecat and fieldafm seated at the far end of the long conference table from councilman, focusing down typing furiously at their computers/tablets.  I can only imagine what the CMs were thinking... "Who are these guys?" "What are they writing?" "Will I win the best dressed award?"

FROM CHANNEL 4 NEWS

Quote

Opinions mixed on Hemming Plaza changes
Many want card playing banned, benches removed; others don't want changes

Published On: Oct 23 2012 05:27:35 AM EDT  Updated On: Oct 23 2012 10:08:17 PM EDT

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -
Members of the Hemming Plaza committee met Tuesday to draft an ordinance on the push to ban card playing and remove benches from the popular downtown park.

Quick Clicks
No more games in Hemming Plaza?
It would change the look of the plaza in front of City Hall for good and move the homeless to another location.

Though many want the homeless gone, some business owners are actually defending them.

"People always talk about the negative parts of it, but to me it's real life out there," business owner Rob Chamblin said.

Downtown bookstore and cafe owner Chamblin doesn't see this as a major problem that calls for a permanent fix in the form of a city law.

At the meeting, more than a dozen residents showed up to voice their concerns, arguing that the suggested restrictions are a violation of human rights.

Committee members disagree, but said they're open to other ideas.

"We have to put some restrictions in this public park so that the rest of the public can use it, not just the people that are hanging out here," City Councilman Don Redman said.

Committee members said they want card playing in Hemming Plaza banned. They also want to remove the benches, trim the trees and allocate money to repair the flower beds.

"If you take the tables out, the benches, it will make the park not a park," Chamblin said. "Not enjoyable by anybody. They should leave the ability to play games."

"I want to know where the litmus test is going to fall. Are we going to take a chart out here and gauge it by how many baths a week somebody takes, maybe the shade of their skin color?" said Robert Mann, who opposes changes to the park. "Who is acceptable and who isn't, who gets to decide?"

But not everyone agrees with Chamblin and Mann.

"They don't just show up and leave," resident Bob Pallais said. "They show up and stay, and that can be a problem."

Pallais sees the issue with the homeless just hanging out. He said some people don't feel safe bringing their families to the park.

"Honestly, what they've got to do is make the downtown area a more comfortable place to visit," Pallais said.

Committee members are hoping the City Council signs off on the law, but some locals say that won't happen without a fight.

"Taking away the chair and tables is totally stupid," resident John Fletcher said. "Homeless people exist. We should be doing something to fix the problem. Thank God we have a decent mayor now that's for the people."

The chair of the committee designed to re-energize Hemming Plaza didn't show up to the meeting. So after some discussion, members decided to schedule another meeting at a later date. It's unclear when that will be, but it will be open to the public.

Robert Mann, publisher of MetroJacksonville.com, said he is up in arms over the proposal.

"It’s part of our city. It's part of our culture and heritage. I feel like its part of me," Mann said. "I can remember being here as a toddler and to tell me suddenly that you’re going to exclude this group or you’re going to exclude that group...is it shade of skin color, is it income, is it how many baths a week they take or maybe a month? And who gets the clip board to go around and check?"

SOURCE: http://www.news4jax.com/morning-show/Opinions-mixed-on-Hemming-Plaza-changes/-/1875838/17093504/-/9jqimaz/-/index.html

So Councilman Redman believes that he must actively engage in making the park accessible and usable to others beside the homeless, and in his mind taking the homeless away makes that happen.  Why would I go to the park as it is now?  There is nothing for me there, and with or without homeless it is not a pleasant park to sit in and hang out at.  It's 1 small city block, mostly paved, poorly landscaped, with very few activators in/around it.

If I am a non-homeless person, resident of DT, young prof, etc and I feel like hanging out in public space downtown, it's going to be the Riverwalk, Chamblin's to read/coffee and sit on porch, or maybe even the Landing courtyard to watch the boats and have a drink.  They could make Hemming pristine and beautiful with no homeless and there would still be no reason for me to go there.  3 out of 4 sides are governmental non-uses, and I can stay on the sidewalk by the library/MOCA to enter those places.

If the City could activate the Riverfront more and the Klutho parks and spaces around it, and create a nice walkable connection between the two, then Hemming would naturally become a stopping point (but there are still no uses around it).  City officials are so agenda oriented and filled with personal goals that have nothing to do with the city or the public.  If they could devote as much time to improving the actual city as they do to embarking on their personal, often religious or politically motivated/discriminatory missions, then Jacksonville would be booming.  PWC's annual "Emerging Trends" publication came out and there is not one positive thing said or noted about Jax...just like past 5 years it is only a few places ahead of Detroit/Cleveland.  Surely public officials realize that their priorities are all personal and misguided and are leading the city down a really bad path.

Wow.  I certainly don't like the start of the article.  It flat out assumes that removing benches, tables, and banning games will make a certain group leave and another group come.  However, there's no truth in that position.  Where has making a space unsuitable for human habitation worked in causing additional humans to show up?

Quote from: simms3 on October 23, 2012, 11:09:17 PM
So Councilman Redman believes that he must actively engage in making the park accessible and usable to others beside the homeless, and in his mind taking the homeless away makes that happen.  Why would I go to the park as it is now?  There is nothing for me there, and with or without homeless it is not a pleasant park to sit in and hang out at.  It's 1 small city block, mostly paved, poorly landscaped, with very few activators in/around it.

If I am a non-homeless person, resident of DT, young prof, etc and I feel like hanging out in public space downtown, it's going to be the Riverwalk, Chamblin's to read/coffee and sit on porch, or maybe even the Landing courtyard to watch the boats and have a drink.  They could make Hemming pristine and beautiful with no homeless and there would still be no reason for me to go there.  3 out of 4 sides are governmental non-uses, and I can stay on the sidewalk by the library/MOCA to enter those places.

If the City could activate the Riverfront more and the Klutho parks and spaces around it, and create a nice walkable connection between the two, then Hemming would naturally become a stopping point (but there are still no uses around it).  City officials are so agenda oriented and filled with personal goals that have nothing to do with the city or the public.  If they could devote as much time to improving the actual city as they do to embarking on their personal, often religious or politically motivated/discriminatory missions, then Jacksonville would be booming.  PWC's annual "Emerging Trends" publication came out and there is not one positive thing said or noted about Jax...just like past 5 years it is only a few places ahead of Detroit/Cleveland.  Surely public officials realize that their priorities are all personal and misguided and are leading the city down a really bad path.

In this case, it appears the committee is being led by three councilmembers with no professional background or experience in urban design, downtown development, or planning.  Do these members even frequent this space on a regular basis?  Also, at what point does public participation, opinion, and desire enter the picture.  What's been discussed in this ordinance is completely the opposite of the survey this committee conducted.  Was that all for show?

Prior to the meeting I spent an hour walking from group to group, covering virtually 100% of everyone in the park, with my MAC BOOK PRO swinging in my hand. ONE PERSON approached me uninvited, he said, 'Sir, do you have the time?' I did. After the TV interviews I went back through the park and informed everyone that we were about to hold a meeting to discuss throwing them out. The heat quickly rose, and of course it was only right that I informed them that they could have a chance to speak. I crossed the street with maybe 30 people from the park, and we were looking for a fight if that's what it would take.

One of the reporters asked me if we shouldn't try and move the 'homeless people' out of the park. What a strange thought. I stopped her and said, 'The key word is P E O P L E,' not homeless, not rich, not tourists, not poor, not anyone that you can label, just 'people'. She seemed taken aback, "We are the people, this is the public, and we want to be heard," were my parting shots.

HOPEFULLY, we did some good. Agree though that this caught them completely off balance.

They didn't expect opposition.  Then when they found out there is, they tried to discourage people from showing up.  When Hemming Plaza is devoid of tables, devoid of benches, and devoid of trees, who will show up then?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 23, 2012, 11:16:16 PM

Quote from: simms3 on October 23, 2012, 11:09:17 PM
So Councilman Redman believes that he must actively engage in making the park accessible and usable to others beside the homeless, and in his mind taking the homeless away makes that happen.  Why would I go to the park as it is now?  There is nothing for me there, and with or without homeless it is not a pleasant park to sit in and hang out at.  It's 1 small city block, mostly paved, poorly landscaped, with very few activators in/around it.

If I am a non-homeless person, resident of DT, young prof, etc and I feel like hanging out in public space downtown, it's going to be the Riverwalk, Chamblin's to read/coffee and sit on porch, or maybe even the Landing courtyard to watch the boats and have a drink.  They could make Hemming pristine and beautiful with no homeless and there would still be no reason for me to go there.  3 out of 4 sides are governmental non-uses, and I can stay on the sidewalk by the library/MOCA to enter those places.

If the City could activate the Riverfront more and the Klutho parks and spaces around it, and create a nice walkable connection between the two, then Hemming would naturally become a stopping point (but there are still no uses around it).  City officials are so agenda oriented and filled with personal goals that have nothing to do with the city or the public.  If they could devote as much time to improving the actual city as they do to embarking on their personal, often religious or politically motivated/discriminatory missions, then Jacksonville would be booming.  PWC's annual "Emerging Trends" publication came out and there is not one positive thing said or noted about Jax...just like past 5 years it is only a few places ahead of Detroit/Cleveland.  Surely public officials realize that their priorities are all personal and misguided and are leading the city down a really bad path.

In this case, it appears the committee is being led by three councilmembers with no professional background or experience in urban design, downtown development, or planning.  Do these members even frequent this space on a regular basis?  Also, at what point does public participation, opinion, and desire enter the picture.  What's been discussed in this ordinance is completely the opposite of the survey this committee conducted.  Was that all for show?

Ennis,

Public participation is where is should start - and public input should be what informs decisions. Most great cities have a strong culture of public participation and involvement. Somehow it seems that elected officials have forgotten that they are elected by and work for the public.

The idea of tearing what's left of the soul of Jacksonville's greatest Town Square through a form of social engineering is shameful. Hemming Park should be the crown jewel of Jacksonville's urban parks and one of the most important civic spaces in the city, populated by people of all kind. It makes me sick that these discussions are occurring as they are - intentionally.

- Steve

Repeated phrases from the meeting.

"it's not a homeless issue it's a conduct issue."

--So, Gulliford did his best to paint the current picture of people in the park as aggressive. He told a story of a man who aggressively panhandled a first time visiter to the core. "It's not a recored crime" he said, "but it's an internalized perception of our downtown that won't be forgotten."

I feel bad for not sharing the story of the homeless man who escorted me from my car to the entrance of a downtown church for a wedding under the cover of his umbrella to shield me from the rain. Even after I insisted, "dude, I don't have any cash. Sorry." He said, "that's okay, man. You shouldn't get wet all dressed up."

We need to grow up. There is this fascination with and embellishment of the homeless/poor man "archetype." We love to tell stories of how the poor man looked at us like he was going to "beat me up." Or, as someone wrote on our facebook page "we're afraid for our lives [when we walk through hemming park]." T

The truth is most people just feel awkward. That's what we're dealing with, awkwardness.

"It's about how we are being perceived. Hemming is an extension of city hall. It reflects poorly on us to have people with "bad conduct" at our front door."

-They should be more concerned about the perception they are creating as our legislators. It's our city council and governing authorities that make us "look bad" not the people with "bad conduct" in hemming park.

-The zone commander for JSO said at the meeting that downtown crime is low. Downtown is relatively safe. We have a perception issue. That may be true. I think many people perceive Jacksonville's downtown to be something out a 1980s comic book about New York. We don't have a gotham. I remember looking up crime stats in our urban core. It hardly exist. I'm never concerned walking through downtown, at anytime. It's probably one of the safest places to be unless you are at the landing (the one managed property), at night...that's where my fight or flight instincts are all tingly. 

"Look, we have a problem, the solution may not be to remove the games and furniture but something has to be done. We're open to ideas. We don't know everything."

- Gulliford said this repeatedly. Though, you don't get the feeling that they are open to ideas. In any other world, I would expect legislators to propose legislation that they feel confident will solve a problem. I don't feel confidence coming from them. I think they sit around and talk about the people in the park like they are 5 year old kids,  "when we take away their games they'll listen to us."

"We need to send a message."


-This was from Redman. They are sending a message just not the one that they think they are sending. What are you trying to prove to the three people who are loud? That you can write laws? Good job council. The other message you have sent: Council does not know what they are doing and is not trying to actually figure out how to make Hemming Plaza better for the community. 

Insomnia again.  You make good sense Lake.  Surely most of the points you make are valid.  The fact of continued apparent avoidance by the significant decision makers to recognize the truth of what you’ve said, and what others have said concerning the lack of progress toward core development, and to act upon them, is interesting, especially when it makes good sense.

We know  some of the dynamics of the causes of decline in the core, and most realize that nobody actually intended the decline to the current state of core abandonment.  The current state of abandonment, and lack of vibrancy, is a natural consequence of the explosive rush to the suburbs, and the loss of critical industries in the core, a condition as experienced by many American cities.

What is most interesting to me is the fact of stagnation, the fact of a city being unable to solve a problem, when the problem has been set over decades clearly for all to see. 

To most, problems are fun, as they offer opportunities to exercise the most wonderful qualities of the mind, that of searching for solutions, of making right, what has been wrong.  Given the problem of core revitalization, of its existence over so long a time without solution, why has there been no solution? 

You have stated what must be done, and your ideas make sense to me.  You and others have mentioned the idea that city council members are not city planners by occupation, so they are not the best individuals to rely upon to consistently make the right decisions which would encourage or force revitalization. 

Our local history has shown that even when a new group or committee is established, with the objective of revitalization set before them, the group or committee fails to make solid progress toward vibrancy and core infill.  Why is this failure repeated over and over?

The period of relative stagnation has been over decades.  Who or what is to blame?  During this period we’ve had several mayors.  We’ve had different council members.  We’ve had both good and bad economies.  We’ve had different groups or committees who’ve been assigned the task of achieving vibrancy and infill.  If we cannot blame any of these entities for holding up real progress, what or who can we blame?

We still, for the most part, have an abandoned downtown core.  Is the new authority going to succeed in forcing significant progress toward vibrancy?  After a period of perhaps one year, we will have a sense of probable success or failure. 

So, to my earlier point, on another discussion, is there something hidden, something fundamental to the achievement of success, which lies beneath the radar, and is causing the failure of all efforts to achieve real progress toward vibrancy?  Does the hidden entity which might be responsible for failure consist of individuals, or does it consist of some characteristic in the environment we’ve missed?  Are there influential individuals or groups who, by their existence and needs or agendas, preventing, without any intention of doing so, progress toward vibrancy?   

Surely nobody intentionally desires to obstruct downtown revitalization.  However, something must be obstructing it.  Whatever it is, it is not obvious.  Again, it doesn’t have to be individuals directly and intentionally active, only perhaps a byproduct of their agendas, actions, or positions.  But it does have to be something.
I sense that the answer is a combination of strong public input and energy in the way of investment, strong leadership by the mayor, and the creative and determined input from whatever group has been given the task of guiding the revitalization.    By these measures, perhaps the “hidden” impediments to vibrancy, whatever they have been over decades, can be overcome.   
     
     

I was not able to make the meeting but by the sound of it, to put it bluntly, our City Council sucks.

Has the Mayor weighed in on this or does he have nothing to do with it? What about the new Downtown authority?

Thank you all who attended. I love the thought of Bob rounding up the locals. 

Awkwardness does sum it up.  Good point.

"We're not afraid, we're uncomfortable."  That should be their stance. 

Quote from: TheCat on October 24, 2012, 12:38:35 AM
Repeated phrases from the meeting.

"it's not a homeless issue it's a conduct issue."

--So, Gulliford did his best to paint the current picture of people in the park as aggressive. He told a story of a man who aggressively panhandled a first time visiter to the core. "It's not a recored crime" he said, "but it's an internalized perception of our downtown that won't be forgotten."

To be honest, you're more likely to get hit up for change on an isolated random street.  What are they planning for that? Besides, isn't panhandling against the law?  What's keeping us from enforcing the law?

Quote"It's about how we are being perceived. Hemming is an extension of city hall. It reflects poorly on us to have people with "bad conduct" at our front door."

-They should be more concerned about the perception they are creating as our legislators. It's our city council and governing authorities that make us "look bad" not the people with "bad conduct" in hemming park.

-The zone commander for JSO said at the meeting that downtown crime is low. Downtown is relatively safe. We have a perception issue. That may be true. I think many people perceive Jacksonville's downtown to be something out a 1980s comic book about New York. We don't have a gotham. I remember looking up crime stats in our urban core. It hardly exist. I'm never concerned walking through downtown, at anytime. It's probably one of the safest places to be unless you are at the landing (the one managed property), at night...that's where my fight or flight instincts are all tingly.

Enforcing the law should take care of people with bad conduct.  Programming and better utilizing the spaces around the park will take care of the rest.  Removing amenities does nothing.

Quote"Look, we have a problem, the solution may not be to remove the games and furniture but something has to be done. We're open to ideas. We don't know everything."

- Gulliford said this repeatedly. Though, you don't get the feeling that they are open to ideas. In any other world, I would expect legislators to propose legislation that they feel confident will solve a problem. I don't feel confidence coming from them. I think they sit around and talk about the people in the park like they are 5 year old kids,  "when we take away their games they'll listen to us."

A combination of programming the space, adding to the amenities, integrating surrounding uses with the space, and opening a day center should be considered.

Quote"We need to send a message."


-This was from Redman. They are sending a message just not the one that they think they are sending. What are you trying to prove to the three people who are loud? That you can write laws? Good job council. The other message you have sent: Council does not know what they are doing and is not trying to actually figure out how to make Hemming Plaza better for the community.

You'll send a strong message by doing the right thing.  Banning games and removing benches, chairs, and trees only sends the message that you refuse to listen to the public and that you don't know what you're doing.

Quote from: ronchamblin on October 24, 2012, 02:36:57 AM
Insomnia again.  You make good sense Lake.  Surely most of the points you make are valid.  The fact of continued apparent avoidance by the significant decision makers to recognize the truth of what you’ve said, and what others have said concerning the lack of progress toward core development, and to act upon them, is interesting, especially when it makes good sense.

We know  some of the dynamics of the causes of decline in the core, and most realize that nobody actually intended the decline to the current state of core abandonment.  The current state of abandonment, and lack of vibrancy, is a natural consequence of the explosive rush to the suburbs, and the loss of critical industries in the core, a condition as experienced by many American cities.

I'm not sure we do know.  If we did, we'd stop doing the same things that result in continued decline. We still continue to destroy our building fabric, downplay public input, and place value in auto movement instead of pedestrians. Several cities across the country have successfully changed their ways over the last two decades, so the answer is out there.

QuoteWhat is most interesting to me is the fact of stagnation, the fact of a city being unable to solve a problem, when the problem has been set over decades clearly for all to see. 

To most, problems are fun, as they offer opportunities to exercise the most wonderful qualities of the mind, that of searching for solutions, of making right, what has been wrong.  Given the problem of core revitalization, of its existence over so long a time without solution, why has there been no solution?

Ultimately, I believe we have to look at and blame ourselves, if blame must be given.  We are responsible for electing our leaders and participating in improving our community ourselves.  As a whole, we don't live up to those responsibilities.

QuoteOur local history has shown that even when a new group or committee is established, with the objective of revitalization set before them, the group or committee fails to make solid progress toward vibrancy and core infill.  Why is this failure repeated over and over?

Because for years, we have accepted status quo.  Do we really want to put our trust in a barber to resolve urban social issues?  You're not going to have a good outcome if the community doesn't get engaged and participate in the process.

QuoteWe still, for the most part, have an abandoned downtown core.  Is the new authority going to succeed in forcing significant progress toward vibrancy?  After a period of perhaps one year, we will have a sense of probable success or failure.

I don't believe we should totally rely on a new or any authority.  If so, expect more of the same.  This community needs to ask itself what it really wants to be, craft an implementation strategy and hold leaders accountable for moving it forward.  In the meantime, individual citizens need to do what they can to enhance our quality of life as well.  No one should be sitting on the couch waiting for someone else to do everything. 

Quote from: Steve_Lovett on October 24, 2012, 12:26:54 AM
Public participation is where is should start - and public input should be what informs decisions. Most great cities have a strong culture of public participation and involvement. Somehow it seems that elected officials have forgotten that they are elected by and work for the public.

+1,000

Ock I saw you on TV last night. Good job.

As has been stated many times on this forum, when Hemming Plaza was surrounded by shopping and restaurants there was no problem. The city has made the problem worse. The old YMCA should have had store fronts on the street level.
I remember a few years ago I was taking pictures of city hall and when I walked near the main entrance a mysterious voice asked me what I was doing. When I told them taking some photos, I was told to take it to the sidewalk. This is the feeling I get with all the government buildings on Hemming Plaza. Closed and impersonal.

We have to remember that much of the city council is elected by citizens who could care less about downtown, and have the mistaken impression it's crime-ridden and scary.  Some are intimidated by panhandlers, because if you say no, will they get nasty or forceful? They are not used to people panhandling them.  Because of that fear, they stay away.  An officer patrolling the park on foot, and handling any panhandling situation should solve that problem.

Public participation - www.jax2025.org (http://www.jax2025.org).  Take the survey.  There is one in English, Spanish, For Teens and For Kids.  This is a visioning/strategy/implementation process for the next decade or so for all of Jacksonville.  Downtown/urban core/near suburb advocates need to participate.   We need to be heard, and involved, or we will be left out.

Sign up for the emails. Invite the presenter to your company. Tell your friends. Put it on Facebook.  Go to the public strategy meetings.  Hopefully, as we told Tom, who presented this at the SPAR meeting, it won't be another study that is shelved and ignored.

From the FAQ tab on the website: Does anything ever happen out of visioning efforts?  Absolutely! We are committed to making the vision a reality, and have a track record of real, measurable change in multiple communities who use this same process. To see some of the results in just one year from another community, click here. We need results like that, and quickly! We need your help to make it happen.  (The link didn't come over, and I can't get to You Tube from work, but I think this is the video about San Antonio.  Go to FAQ and click the link. It's the last question on the FAQ page.)

When is the next meeting? Is councilwoman Lee OK?

Tomorrow at the 5pm Jacksonville city council meeting 2012-623 is ready for council. before 623 was 202. introduced when 623 gets passed will be 674 new legislation.
In 5 years I have yet to have a phone call, or email back from councilwoman Lee. Never forget 2010-856.
I hope she is OK. Has anyone heard anything?
We have a new Authority.
Embrace it.
Or
it will Embrace us.

Stream of consciousness much?

(http://i860.photobucket.com/albums/ab165/sheclown/homelessveterans.jpg)

COJ, as you attempt to kick the homeless out of the park, remember that a good percentage of them are veterans.

The funny thing is the majority using the park aren't necessarily homeless. They just aren't the demographic some want to see in downtown.

Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2012, 08:57:57 AM
The funny thing is the majority using the park aren't necessarily homeless. They just aren't the demographic some want to see in downtown.

very true. 

Quote from: sheclown on November 12, 2012, 11:49:09 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on November 12, 2012, 08:57:57 AM
The funny thing is the majority using the park aren't necessarily homeless. They just aren't the demographic some want to see in downtown.

very true. 

Next DIA/CRA Board meeting 8 days out. 1st floor city hall at 2pm. Huge announcements and presentations.

Any demographic want to write a check for a buck to 2009-442 the Artificial Reef Trust Fund? I'm serious. Will personally deliver it to the full Jacksonville Waterway Commission at the 9:30 am meeting in city hall council chambers. Then report the results to our new DIA/CRA in the USA a couple of hours later.

Any demographic want to kayak and fish under the brand new No Fishing signs or paddle by Shipyards III?

VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
         If
You can FIND us!

Quote from: TheCat on October 23, 2012, 05:39:17 PM
Thelakelander, yes...it was meaningless (some good conversations afterwards as the owner of Kona was able to get a few the council members to think outside of the box regarding Hemming).

Gulliford, who claimed he had to leave for another meeting cut the hemming meeting short then came back into the room where we were lingering within ten minutes.

Denise Lee did not show up and Gulliford did not want to be the impromptu chair of the meeting.

I wouldn't be surprised if Denise Lee skipped the meeting on purpose because she was not expecting so many people to voice shock and opposition.

Her office literally told someone who called to get information about the meeting that they would be wasting their time if they showed up. That the meeting was just a formality...etc. That there wouldn't even be time for public comments.

So, I'm not sure what the purpose of the meeting but maybe Denise Lee is incredibly cunning. If people came to this meeting and left thinking it was a waste of their time maybe they won't show up to the next one...?

Or, maybe she wasn't expecting a large crowd of "fired" up people and every media outlet in the city to be present.

Or, she was just running late...which I have experienced with her on more than one occasion.

Either way, that's totally disrespectful to the people who showed up to be heard and provide input.

So in one day next city council meeting 2012-732 and an emergency resolution on Hemming Plaza.
There was supposed to be another meeting.
The DIA/CRA in the USA wanted Denise Lee to give a presentation at an upcoming Board meeting. Is that still expected to happen?
The DIA will be branding our city on Wend. As we are banning our people on Tues. VISIT JACKSONVILLE!
Is councilwoman Lee OK? Is 2012-732 an emergency?
Massive stories in this past weekends TU about 2025 so what does the JCCI group think about this secret action?
The Public Trust continues to be totally crushed.
Shipyards III
The secret FIND list.
2010-856
Palms Fish Camp.
Free Parking for council members and judges.
Add your own free banning issue. Anyone want to go kayaking and fishing Downtown under the brand new No fishing signs that was never before the Jacksonville Waterways Commission?
A New Authority
Embrace It
Or
It will Embrace Us.

Quote from: thelakelander on October 23, 2012, 03:37:52 PM

Quote from: stephendare on October 23, 2012, 03:32:13 PM

Quote from: TheCat on October 23, 2012, 03:31:09 PM
We're here.

Bill Gulliford opened with a speech thats basically a pish posh on all this attention to the subject.  "Slow News Day" is how he characterized it.

Gulliford reads Metro Jacksonville?  Cool.

Hemming Plaza meeting 9am 1st floor city hall. Anyone going?

Quote from: thelakelander on October 24, 2012, 07:31:30 AM

Quote from: Steve_Lovett on October 24, 2012, 12:26:54 AM
Public participation is where is should start - and public input should be what informs decisions. Most great cities have a strong culture of public participation and involvement. Somehow it seems that elected officials have forgotten that they are elected by and work for the public.

+1,000

Steve, I believe you were there at the 2/12/13 DIA subcommittee meeting on Hemming Plaza and can you share with everyone about the Public comment period for this Landmark meeting.

There was NO PUBLIC comment.

I counted maybe 19 people in attendance of which I would say that 6 were from the Public. When you walk in there was a sign in sheet and Public comment speaker cards but not a single piece of paper stating what this meeting was about and in the future you would hope that there would be.

Councilwoman Lee arrived late and left early. Was saying something along the lines of Pimpin the Govt. not exactly sure what that is about but she did stress and suggest that a trip to another city may be in order.

So are the table and chairs in or out? Don't recall one word being said on that.

So the plan is creating a Foundation and thus the Police will have more Authority over Rules of Engagement if it were not a Public Park but a Park governed by a Foundation. Thus the Friends of Hemming Plaza. Initially DIA will be seeking 10 people that will each donate $5000 and create the Friends of Hemming Plaza.

Once we have some friends we'll set up a 501-c with a H
                                                                               A
                                                                               R
                                                                               T
DVI floated a budget number of $350,000 and $150,000 would be needed the first year. Terry or anyone else if you want to jump in on this please do.

The benefits of creating over 250 events and programming from 11-1 every day and the creating of a Buzz for Hemming Plaza is a good thing.

Tony Allegretti was there but had to leave and mentioned about free WIFI for Hemming Plaza and talked about a drop cam.

What really concerned me was the mention that once Hemming Plaza is conquered this positive action will hopefully then be extended throughout the Authority Zone on the banks of our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initiative.

Councilman Redman was there and when I walked out with him Scott Wilson and Dave Roman were there and we talked about why Palmer Terrace Park doesn't have a Mayor Brown Kayak Logo.

The Jim Love, Kevin Kuzel, Floating Dock Compromise next to SHIPYARDS III.
Palms Fish Camp next to a FIND project. - A funding source for the 6 artificial reefs south of the Fuller Warren bridge in our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative.
RAM dock
USS ADAMS

So who wants to kayak and fish Downtown under our brand new No Fishing signs that was never before Waterways?

2013 is 2025

I am Downtown and why you aren't.

Quote from: Noone on February 16, 2013, 05:38:58 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on October 24, 2012, 07:31:30 AM

Quote from: Steve_Lovett on October 24, 2012, 12:26:54 AM
Public participation is where is should start - and public input should be what informs decisions. Most great cities have a strong culture of public participation and involvement. Somehow it seems that elected officials have forgotten that they are elected by and work for the public.

+1,000

So are the table and chairs in or out? Don't recall one word being said on that.


Councilman Redman was there and when I walked out with him Scott Wilson and Dave Roman were there and we talked about why Palmer Terrace Park doesn't have a Mayor Brown Kayak Logo.



So who wants to kayak and fish Downtown under our brand new No Fishing signs that was never before Waterways?

2013 is 2025

So in a phone message today from Dist. 4 we just need a load of yellow sand delivered to Palmer Terrace Park and we will have a new Mayor Alvin Brown Kayak launch logo.

Anyone have an in to what one load may cost? Maybe Public Works can deliver a load. I'll volunteer to Make It Happen.

Has anyone heard about one bid for the Jacobs clock slab?

Can one of the Hemming Plaza table and chairs be relocated to Palmer Terrace Park?

DIA Board meeting on 2013-94 1 hour out. Anyone going? 1st floor city hall at 9am.
At noon in 2c Transparancy and Open Govt. meeting.
On the agenda.
Right of Public to speak at Noticed meetings.
Text messaging.

Scott Wilson, Got your message on Palmer Terrace Park. Thank you. It's happening.

So are the tables and chairs in or out at Hemming Plaza? Fun time at ArtWalk last night.
Do we have a bid yet on the Jacobs Public Works/JEA light pole (clock) that is lying in a crate over in Talleyrand?
When is the next DIA Board meeting?
Jacksonville Waterways Commission meeting 6 days out. FIND/LOST still wide open.
I went to the Ethics Commission meeting Transparency and Open Government meeting on 3/1/13  Sounds like the new people Duarte, Chrabot in the FBI will be busy as heck. Big meeting March 11.

Funding?
FSCJ and a midnight email by Wallace and then an EXTRA! EXTRA! $500,000 voted on by a Board.
JTA EXTRA! EXTRA! and a golden 1/4 million dollar plus parachute for Blaylock voted on by a Board.
PFPF EXTRA! EXTRA! and a million dollar plus pension for a convicted child molester voted on by a Board. (2013-9)
The Public Trust continues to be destroyed in Jacksonville.

On a positive note. Who wants to put in and kayak Downtown on our St. Johns River our American Heritage River a FEDERAL Initiative in our newly created DIA zone?

Hemming Plaza DIA subcommittee meeting today at 1:30 City Hall first floor.