Metro Jacksonville

Jacksonville by Neighborhood => Downtown => Topic started by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:09:08 PM

Title: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:09:08 PM
Getting started here.  Unless I speak (for the third time),doesnt look like anyone from the public will oppose. 

Talking right now about the overland pedestrian bridge at the Courthouse... this has been discussed for close to two years now.

Goes to show you how out of whack priorities are around here.  Retail-less, tax subsidized parking garage will probably be greenlighted... while a pedestrian bridge gets drawn out with no end in site
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:11:01 PM
As was not the case at the previous meeting, all board members are here today.

$750k savings based on modified design of pedesttrian bridge at Courthouse.  Will use precast concrete.  It looks Jacksonville-rific!
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:12:24 PM
Parador has an increased presence here from previous meetings.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:14:15 PM
I wore an even nicer blue shirt today than at the Context Sensitive Streets subcommittee yesterday... unfortunately, there are no women here to impress.  My cold blooded bravado has been wasted on this sausage fest.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:21:32 PM
Pedestrian bridge presentations (of which I have now seen 6) are about as thrilling as watching paint dry.  You almost wish Kim Daniels was here to spell up some demons on this meeting.

Roland Undanze asking questions about treatment of windows on pedestrian bridge.... complete with sketch of what he means doodled on his notes.

jonathan=  "looks like subway car"

Chris Flagg= 'are we rendered useless, we already had a final decision months ago?'  JAson Teal says they do have to come back to board, they are looking for more guidance b/c they have been through so many revisions.  State historic preservation office also needs to sign off.

This is high stakes, drama.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:23:14 PM
Parador guys look upbeat and happy, they should be... about to get half their construction costs as a gift from taxpayers.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Tacachale on October 11, 2012, 02:23:51 PM
No one's going to speak against this? Get it done, Mike!
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fsujax on October 11, 2012, 02:24:10 PM
what a waste. If I were Flagg I would just resign. Cant wait till they spend an hour talking about the purple Aetna sign.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:25:04 PM
A rash of yawns have started infecting the room.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 02:28:44 PM
Blue shirt?  Isn't there some plaid that you could wear?   8)
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:29:13 PM
And we're off, here comes the parking saviors!

NRW, its blue plaid
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:31:49 PM
Design has not changed in any signifigance from last meeeting.  Looks like they put up some faux window boxes and increased the width of the sidewalks somewhat.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:33:19 PM
BTW Simms.... you will MOST definately see this beauty from the river.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:34:25 PM
Chris Holmes, the project's architect, mainly designs buildings and garages in suburban office parks... as an FYI
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:35:35 PM
"There has been a VAST array of changes from the original proposal"
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:36:55 PM
Apparently, "pedestrians will gather in the public plaza proposed and many special events will be held there."

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2012, 02:39:26 PM
So they're assuming that flash mobs will just congregate on some empty pavement????  "If you pave it, they will come"
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:39:56 PM
"Wayfinding markers are now more refined and elements have been highlighted to get rid of the long linear form"

"Colors are now more bold and will stand out"  Basically there are two shades of beige with white on the corners.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fsujax on October 11, 2012, 02:40:22 PM
you know maybe the food trucks could pull up on those wide sidewalks!
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: copperfiend on October 11, 2012, 02:41:20 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:36:55 PM
Apparently, "pedestrians will gather in the public plaza proposed and many special events will be held there."


Are homeless people considered pedestrians???
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:45:40 PM
"Street vendors and artists will be invited and congregate and make this passive space and active space"

There is 'retail showbox' on the corners of Bay/Hogan.  No actual retail, it's just an area where you can put some window dressings up that mimics a retail store's showroom.

FSUjax, food trucks are not sidewalk vendors

phase two retail would accomodate 3-4 tenants from infill where the setbacks are on Hogan, b/w 2200 to 4600 square feet each.  It may be 4600 square feet, but he does not mention the actual stall dimension... which would be odd (think the bottom level retail bays at the Everbank Bldg on Riverside Ave).

As I mentioned in the previous thread, the portion of the building Parador bought are not office condos... it's space that will be traditionally leased.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fsujax on October 11, 2012, 02:47:18 PM
I was joking Mike.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 02:47:38 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:39:56 PM
"Colors are now more bold and will stand out"  Basically there are two shades of beige with white on the corners.

"50 Shades of Beige", the NYT Bestseller that continues to deliver on full nights of peaceful sleep for Jacksonville's suburbanite housewives.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:48:05 PM
There will be a plaza b/w the garage and the building... it's not impressive.  The garage could be moved closer to the bldg to allow for better depths for future infill along Hogan.  These are my thoughts, btw.

If I 'quote' something... thats the architect.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:50:19 PM
"the elements added will give it a lillte more classical look like the bldgs built in the teens and twentys in downtown /jacksonville'

Henry Klutho is rolling over in his grave.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2012, 02:52:24 PM
This is a nightmare
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 02:53:38 PM
Quote from: The Architect
"Colors are now more bold and will stand out" 

I am speechless...
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fsujax on October 11, 2012, 02:53:56 PM
horrible. I cant wait to hear what Flagg has to say.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 02:54:17 PM
Lol. Did an architect really say that?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:55:19 PM
Future retail will have a recess effect (some will be 24 inches set back further than others).  Which will have the appearance of the infill having happened along different time lines.  Way to fake em out Chris!

"The courtyard will be active with a nice place to sit with shade trees"  BTW, it's palm trees in the picture.

"maybe we could have a wireless hot spot" in the plaza.  Sounds like he's making it up as he goes.

The 'retail box' could 'be an opportunity for a public service ad'  Dont think that meets the signage guidelines, Chet.

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:56:39 PM
"2600 sqaure foot faciity and a 4600 square foot opportunity for the two retail spaces"
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 02:58:05 PM
The picture was just presented of what the future retail buildout will look like.  It looks like a one story concrete box fell out of the sky and just landed next to a five story building.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: duvaldude08 on October 11, 2012, 03:00:05 PM
I can only imagine if they were designing an actual building! What a mess  ::)
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 03:01:03 PM
Mike, you are making this too much fun, darnit.  I didn't go because I have too much work to catch up on.  Now I am glued to the blog and can't get any work done.

Too bad there isn't a way you can put your blog and the comments on a screen in the room.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:01:33 PM
So they really expect people to want to hang out and socialize next to a parking garage? Do they have any successful examples?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
David Beurline from the TU and Max Marbut from the Daily Record are my guests today.  Everyone else here is presenting in front of the Board.

DVI was here for the first meeting, but not at the last two.

Here comes the 'I could see sculptures setting up shop in the plaza, which is common in urban areas"  He said that last meeting too.  Apparently he's more well traveled than I.  I've been to almost every major metropolitan areas in this great country and I've never seen that.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Captain Zissou on October 11, 2012, 03:08:03 PM
At least they're making it easy for you to get up there and shoot them down.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:09:14 PM
Are they offering to fund the construction of a sculpture park? Otherwise, why stop the vision? Hell, why not a 30' wide, 10 story Macy's and a flying lakelander?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I have too much work as well, but it was clear no one else could make it.. and I feel a public record of what is happening is far more important.  I'll just have to work until 10pm to catch up with my workload.

Like Tachale said, this may be the worst publicly subsidized building downtown in years... which is a dubious distinction.  At least the Courthouse wasnt in this prime of a location.  And you would also think.. we would have learned from previous taxpayers disasters.

I'm perhaps being too hard on the architect.  He's probably just trying to work within the cheap framework the developer wants.  Still, the comments about mirroring early century Jacksonville architecture was pretty insulting.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
We are now watching 3D renderings.  It actually looks worse than I previously imagined.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 03:12:12 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:03:05 PM
Here comes the 'I could see sculptures setting up shop in the plaza, which is common in urban areas"  He said that last meeting too.  Apparently he's more well traveled than I.  I've been to almost every major metropolitan areas in this great country and I've never seen that.

I remember that one.  Once this project is finished, I am going to bring a generator, my welder, some scrap metal and set up shop.

The question is, will they be providing power?  And a place to lock up my tools at night?

If I understood correctly from the last meeting, he wasn't saying that it would be a place for the artwork to be displayed, he was saying it would be a place where artists could gather and create their masterpieces.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:13:34 PM
I have decided not to speak.  I've already said it twice.

John Fischer, 'design is much improved, especially the recess of the central panels.  nice articulation on the edges.'  Also impressed with 'choice of colors'  'I really like the way it looks when you build out the retail"  'archways in the concrete loosens up the feel'  'all in all, i think its a good design effort'
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 03:14:07 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:09:51 PM
I'm perhaps being too hard on the architect.

Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:10:41 PM
We are now watching 3D renderings.  It actually looks worse than I previously imagined.

Nah.  It's sounds like he's deserving of some harsh criticism. 

Are his power-point skills enough to consider him for the Director of JTA?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:17:25 PM
Logan Rink who was not at the lsat meeting, wants to defer before hearing from all the other board members

Jim Bailey 'i think you're discounting the alley you are creating'  wants a retail element in the alleyway.
'i dont know much about retail'  wants the retail along bay to have less depth so retail can be added in the alleyway.  'a tiny riverside arts market'  Architect has not explored that.  Jim says retail 'may be too deep'

design will have a little under 7000 square feet of retail in second phase

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:19:45 PM
Roland declines to speak

john cruza=agrees with Jim.  In miami they have planters at the top of the parking garage, nice to soften up the facade with some 'green relief'  'overall a great job'

Andy Sikes 'agrees with John Fischer'  'maybe green up the wall in the alleyway to make it pleasing for people in the Suntrust buidling"
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
A corner retail spot along the alley, but directly facing the Landing isn't a bad idea.  Independent Drive is really the most important side of this thing to address and it appears to be a complete afterthought.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 03:21:30 PM
Does Logan throw up a little bit in his mouth everytime he looks at the proposed renderings?  Just wondering.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
chris Flagg 'effort to get to this point is commendable... you still need 2 or 3 more meetings to get there'

'overall arching question-does the design standards of this garage complements the surrounding prominent site?"  "need to be as creative and innovative as we can to make this make less of a garage and more of a multi-faceted building"  YES!!!

"you need to pay greater attention to that"

"does the design of this garage heal all the wounds of being a garage?"

'bay street retail window treatment is better... we still need to consider the fact that we are deviating from our guidelines"

"has the reatil showcase concept proven successful in the past?" 
Architect- 'well its a question of who "owns" that display case'  'if it's someobody like MOSH, then yes... if it belongs to one of the retailers in the second phase-then yes'  'retail is not about how deep is your store, it's about how much window coverage you have"   Jesus help me!!!

Flagg again= "the lack of activation along the street is this city's problem"  'thats what draws the people"
'we have to remember as a board, we want retail there primarily" 
architect 'well do you want retail or do you want people?"
Flagg 'well one draws the other"
architect 'we asked the street vendors about this, and they wanted water and electricity, they now have the opportunity to have better options than just operating off propane tanks"


Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:30:41 PM
Flagg now comparing this to Minneapolis, calling it a hidden jewwl (i would agree!!) one of the concepts he learned about was pop up retail (hello, been saying that for awhile!!!) and how we could incorporate that in this project.

"dissapointed that we dont have green walls or better lighting features"

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:31:31 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
A corner retail spot along the alley, but directly facing the Landing isn't a bad idea.  Independent Drive is really the most important side of this thing to address and it appears to be a complete afterthought.

that corner is an exit for the stairway on the garage
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
This is insane.  I can't believe the stuff coming out of this architect's mouth.  No wonder downtown has become what it is today.  If we can't get the basics right of designing buildings to fit within an urban setting we're screwed and it doesn't matter how much money we pour into the place.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
Flagg thinks even the future retail looks like a second box to the box already there.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:36:58 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:31:31 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:21:18 PM
A corner retail spot along the alley, but directly facing the Landing isn't a bad idea.  Independent Drive is really the most important side of this thing to address and it appears to be a complete afterthought.

that corner is an exit for the stairway on the garage

The great thing about projects still on paper is that we can move things around until its right, before going to final design and construction.  Looking at the plan, they could switch the location of the stairwells.  However, that would get them into what they never wanted to do.  That's integrate retail into the structure.

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:38:02 PM
many board members want palms moved to hogan street facade instead of Independent

flagg 'is there a way to replicate the hogan facade on bay?"  architect 'we're hoping that we'll have retail sooner rather than later"  flagg "we've heard a lot about hope and change lately"  laughter  'i think you have to look at the functionaltiy, you want recesses, shade, etc.. that's a hot street in regards to temperature'

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 03:38:37 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
This is insane.  I can't believe the stuff coming out of this architect's mouth.  No wonder downtown has become what it is today.  If we can't get the basics right of designing buildings to fit within an urban setting we're screwed and it doesn't matter how much money we pour into the place.

WTH are you talking about, Lake. 

The new AIA Standards are out and obviously you didn't read the section detailing the new design standards for urban environments.  The first section deals with getting design input from the hot dog vendor....

Quote from: Architect
'we asked the street vendors about this, and they wanted water and electricity, they now have the opportunity to have better options than just operating off propane tanks"

{Hot Dog guy does a fist pump with the in the back of the room}
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:39:16 PM
flagg wants bay street facade to match hogan facade.  feels that this is a big decision to not get right
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:40:00 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:34:55 PM
Flagg thinks even the future retail looks like a second box to the box already there.

I see Flagg's point:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Parador-Partners-Parking/i-wKN26V3/0/M/DDRB-Meeting-Packet-October-M.jpg)

Given the high profile location, they should be thinking of shielding the garage completely:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4194-p1070173.JPG)
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 03:40:09 PM
It's all about the car, baby!  We are spending more money to park these cars than the cars are worth themselves.  And we can't get them to spend any money on the pedestrian experience.

It reminds me of Lori Boyer's response to Jim Robinson at Context Sensitive Streets yesterday afternoon.  He was commenting on how the current design standards have a certain level of safety built into them.  Her direct comment back was "safer for who?"

And again, we are back to the same point.  We are designing this building for the cars.

Has their been any talk about how they are going to address the TCEA requirements for downtown?  Mitigation of impact on the pedestrian, bicycle and transit systems?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:41:39 PM
Selim-  this is public private parking facility, how are you seperating the public versus private parking spots?

architect 'public parking will be at lower levels and assigned at upper levels' 

no tcea talk
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: John P on October 11, 2012, 03:44:03 PM
Has DIA, DVI, mayors office or city councilman assigned to this district weighed in?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: John P on October 11, 2012, 03:46:28 PM
Theer are AIA reps that live near downtown
surely they would be interested if notified. Flagg needs back up.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:49:45 PM
It's clear, this thing is going to get passed

Miller  "chris is right, it could be improved with more meetings... but still better than first renderings' 

likes the recesses of the faux retail, makes it a liltle more palatable

"opportunities in the alleyway" 
architect 'not an alleyway, it's pretty wide expanse'  'maybe break up planters instead of one long liner planters for the opportunity for a pop up retailer to set up shop'
apparently t shirt vendors will be glad to be out of site lines outside 

'lighting could look better, instead of shining only halfway down' 
architect 'prefer that over long uplighting'  'bc suntrust is group of condo owners, we have to get their input first'

miller again 'overall youve come a long way, still a parking garage, but more comfortable than with it than previous designs'


Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:53:25 PM
The approval/review process towards downtown is broken.  We've forgotten the importance and definition of what it means to design for the pedestrian scale level.  If the Mayor's Office/DIA doesn't address this, I really don't see their creation of the DIA having as much of a positive impact on downtown as they wish.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:54:08 PM
Logan Rink

'im still completey unconvinced of the need for this'

'ive never had problems paking downtown'

'this couldnt be the highest and best use of this property'

'if he have to accpet a parking garage... then it seems like granting deviations is not a good idea.  its like we are encouraging this'  'love to hear the math on the need for this'  'what does 65% occupancy rate have to do with retail?'

architect '65% is where the developer breaks even'  'until then he's losing money every month'  'from a standpoint of a leasee going into the bldg, if im a suburbanite-im coming downtown unless i have an easy way to park'  'working with two major tenants now that said if you build the garage we will come' he's talking about PSS and Advanced Disposal  'as a citizen of jacksonville, if a parking space brings people downtown, that will be a catalyst for growth'  'it was refreshing to be in chicago recently having people wizz by you, i get bored to death in DT Jax'  'you have to have a destination'  'you have to get enough workers to drive those retail opportunities'

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
Rink 'im not convinced parking is downtown's problems'

architect 'this is solely a tenant issue, were not trying to solve the Landing's parking problems, the city has decided that they want to incentivize the parking garage'  'our developers believes this is the first major development downtown for a long time'

btw, parador owners left halfway though presentation.

architect 'right now, developer doesnt think enough demand exists for retail'

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:57:27 PM
^If they are coming if a garage is built, then going ahead and put in the retail.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Noone on October 11, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
This parking garage sounds like if it does get voted in now it will have to be grandfathered in before the new JTA guy would have said "What are we Doin?"
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 03:59:56 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 03:56:34 PM
architect 'this is solely a tenant issue, were not trying to solve the Landing's parking problems, the city has decided that they want to incentivize the parking garage'  'our developers believes this is the first major development downtown for a long time'

How is this anymore major than the courthouse garage that was built a couple of years ago?  I'm not a fan of the courthouse but I'd consider it to be a major downtown development and it just opened this past summer.  Also, if their goal isn't to resolve the Landing issue and the Landing doesn't think it resolves the issue, let's keep the $3.5 million, make this a market rate project and move on.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
This parking garage sounds like if it does get voted in now it will have to be grandfathered in before the new JTA guy would have said "What are we Doin?"
The new JTA guy has nothing to do with this project.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:01:08 PM
Bailey 'if youre going to create a parking garage, that alleyway still needs to be an asset'  'make in more than a parking lot until we get to the point where we need retail'  also says he is glad developer is willing to invest downtown.  'we could need a lot like this, but we wont ever need it if we contnue to do what we are doing now'

architect 'developer is excited about the prospect of retail, but he's not excited about building empty spaces'
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:02:35 PM
Does the developer have any background in retail?  Would it make sense to design the garage's first floor to be able to incorporate a retail buildout at a later date, like the courthouse and Carling garages?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:02:51 PM
johnathan 'what is the projection of getting to 65% mark, do these two tenants get us there?' 

architect 'im not sure if those two tenants make it happen, that was a deal with the developer and JEDC'
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:04:17 PM
So no rational nexus between the marketability of future retail and the 65% number?  The 65% number is just what the developer needs to break even on his Suntrust investment?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:06:12 PM
roland 'with the economy the way it is, you just have to phase all of this' 
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:07:39 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:04:17 PM
So no rational nexus between the marketability of future retail and the 65% number?  The 65% number is just what the developer needs to break even on his Suntrust investment?

yes, pretty sweet deal if you ask me.  Strips out the risk.  Viva the free market!
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:07:59 PM
Doesn't Roland work for Haskell?  He has a conflict of interest.  I thought he was staying out of it.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:10:19 PM
before the vote... Flagg 'we have a suburban mentality in this city and well continue to exasberate that problem if we keep doing this'  ' we have to maintain the integrity of downtown'  'does this garage match the proximity of this site?  should we settle?  our responsibility is to maintain the integrity of our urban landscape'

Thank God for Chris Flagg
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:10:56 PM
flagg 'we continue to accept mediocricity'
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:12:32 PM
Thank God but he's outnumbered.  However, he is exactly right.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
It's a problem when someone can present a sketch like this and really believe people would want to spend time next to a blank wall:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.2537.feature.jpg)

If anything, this "courtyard/alley" looks like another poor lighted place with limited visibility for someone to get mugged.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: John P on October 11, 2012, 04:17:34 PM
Forgive my ignorance. How do these individuals find themselves on the DDRB committee? By appointment? If so by who?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Bridges on October 11, 2012, 04:20:02 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
It's a problem when someone can present a sketch like this and really believe people would want to spend time next to a blank wall:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.2537.feature.jpg)

If you draw them, they will come.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Non-RedNeck Westsider on October 11, 2012, 04:20:05 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:16:12 PM
It's a problem when someone can present a sketch like this and really believe people would want to spend time next to a blank wall:

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/assets/thumbs/image.2537.feature.jpg)

If anything, this "courtyard/alley" looks like another poor lighting place with limited visibility for someone to get mugged.

or is it worse that the people looking at that rendering and automatically think Art Market or Sculpter Garden?

I can look at a retention pond all day and think Lake Tahoe - it's still a retention pond in the middle of a suburb.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:24:14 PM
I am at a point where I would rather see a well-landscaped surface parking lot that provides Parador with enough spaces to get to 65% occupancy.  And then build a structure that is worthy of being at that site.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: fieldafm on October 11, 2012, 04:25:36 PM
retail deviation vote with three conditions (future retail on Hogan with 65%, alleyway deviation, and proper DRI and TCEA has to be submitted prior to issuing building permit). thankfully, a concerned citizen brought the DRI/TCEA issue up this moring :)


board wants the design for the alleyway, heights on periphat, and how they are dealng with facade on Hogans  (DRI/TCEA is staff review)... to come back to the board instead of being reviewed by staff prior to permit.. this motion is seconded and passed

first deviation (65% occupancy to provide retail)... two against(Rink and Flagg) one abstains (roland)
second deviation (transparent design deviation)... same as first vote
final approval (with board imposing the conditions in my second paragraph)... two against (Bailey and Flagg) one abstains (Rink actually voted yes on this vote)

developer is shovel ready once all conditions are met
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:26:34 PM
While we're questioning market realities, why would a vendor want to set up a kiosk at this location?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Parador-Partners-Parking/i-94qSZ44/0/M/Parador-17-M.jpg)

A vendor needs something in place to create foot traffic to support them being there.  Retail would do that but why would someone believe a parking garage wall would?

Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:28:21 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:24:14 PM
I am at a point where I would rather see a well-landscaped surface parking lot that provides Parador with enough spaces to get to 65% occupancy.  And then build a structure that is worthy of being at that site.
This actually would not be a bad idea and it would be cheaper for all parties involved.  I wonder how many spaces could fit on that lot if it were simply improved?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Noone on October 11, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
This parking garage sounds like if it does get voted in now it will have to be grandfathered in before the new JTA guy would have said "What are we Doin?"
The new JTA guy has nothing to do with this project.

Just thinking of the pedestrian experience. How close to a bike rack. Transit. Don't pretend to be an expert but if we have a new JTA guy what is an example from where he is coming from?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:32:00 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
This parking garage sounds like if it does get voted in now it will have to be grandfathered in before the new JTA guy would have said "What are we Doin?"
The new JTA guy has nothing to do with this project.

Just thinking of the pedestrian experience. How close to a bike rack. Transit. Don't pretend to be an expert but if we have a new JTA guy what is an example from where he is coming from?

I'm confused to what the new JTA guy would bring to the table on this issue that hasn't already been presented.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
QuoteTransportation Concurrency Exception Area: Downtown was designated as a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA) to promote mixed-use development tied into mass transit options to mitigate the impacts of development on the downtown and surrounding roadway system.

The Office of Economic Development is the master developer of the Consolidated Downtown Development of Regional Impact Development Order (DRI DO), approved March 12, 1993, and the Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA), approved December 13, 2005. The Downtown Zoning Overlay requires a developer obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval.

DRI development rights are obtained only after receiving conceptual approval by the DDRB. All new and rehabilitation projects require DRI development rights, which are made available through the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO. A developer of a proposed project must obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval. DRI development rights are allocated to a developer through a Redevelopment Agreement, negotiated by the Office of Economic Development and approved by City Council. Developers are required to mitigate the impacts of their proposed development by adhering to the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO conditions and agreeing to applicable TCEA Mobility Performance Standards.

The downtown area is designated a TCEA and requires developers to agree to implement applicable mobility improvements that promote mixed-use development, increased efficiency of existing roadways, enhanced streetscapes, mass transit ridership, transit oriented design, etc., in lieu of traditional road widening improvements.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:33:45 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 11, 2012, 04:29:23 PM
But Lake, if garages werent crowd generators, then why is more than 65% of downtown devoted to parking?  All that success cant be wrong!

Yeah, downtown's streets should be bustling with activity from all the garage frontage we've built.  We should be winning ULI awards and having other economic development councils visiting downtown to take lessons on how to build garages with the best of them.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
QuoteTransportation Concurrency Exception Area: Downtown was designated as a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA) to promote mixed-use development tied into mass transit options to mitigate the impacts of development on the downtown and surrounding roadway system.

The Office of Economic Development is the master developer of the Consolidated Downtown Development of Regional Impact Development Order (DRI DO), approved March 12, 1993, and the Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA), approved December 13, 2005. The Downtown Zoning Overlay requires a developer obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval.

DRI development rights are obtained only after receiving conceptual approval by the DDRB. All new and rehabilitation projects require DRI development rights, which are made available through the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO. A developer of a proposed project must obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval. DRI development rights are allocated to a developer through a Redevelopment Agreement, negotiated by the Office of Economic Development and approved by City Council. Developers are required to mitigate the impacts of their proposed development by adhering to the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO conditions and agreeing to applicable TCEA Mobility Performance Standards.

The downtown area is designated a TCEA and requires developers to agree to implement applicable mobility improvements that promote mixed-use development, increased efficiency of existing roadways, enhanced streetscapes, mass transit ridership, transit oriented design, etc., in lieu of traditional road widening improvements.

I don't think this would have much influence on what they've proposed, since they're getting the retail requirement waived as an initial phase.  They could simply say they are complying with the guidelines, they're just phasing the mix of uses in, which the JEDC/DIA has already agreed too.  Also, they could probably argue that an "enhanced" sidewalk over what exists today, does improve mobility around the site.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: Tacachale on October 11, 2012, 04:39:40 PM
Who all are the board members?
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:43:12 PM
Chair - Timothy Miller, AIA, ELM - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Vice-Chair -  John A. Fischer, AIA, Danis Construction - Architect Representative

Secretary - Logan Rink, Design Cooperative, LLC - Downtown Property Owner Representative

James F. Bailey, Jr., Bailey Publishing and Communications, Inc. - Downtown Property Owner Representative

Christopher D. Flagg, RLA, ASLA, Flagg Design Studio, LLC - Landscape Architect Representative

Jonathan R. Garza, Garza Constructors, Inc. - Contractor/Developer/ Realtor Representative

Andy Sikes, Baptist Health - Urban Planner Representative

Montasser (Monty) M. Selim, Urban Planner Representative

Roland Udenze, Haskell Architects and Engineers - Architect Representative
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:44:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:37:46 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on October 11, 2012, 04:32:50 PM
QuoteTransportation Concurrency Exception Area: Downtown was designated as a Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA) to promote mixed-use development tied into mass transit options to mitigate the impacts of development on the downtown and surrounding roadway system.

The Office of Economic Development is the master developer of the Consolidated Downtown Development of Regional Impact Development Order (DRI DO), approved March 12, 1993, and the Transportation Concurrency Exception Area (TCEA), approved December 13, 2005. The Downtown Zoning Overlay requires a developer obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval.

DRI development rights are obtained only after receiving conceptual approval by the DDRB. All new and rehabilitation projects require DRI development rights, which are made available through the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO. A developer of a proposed project must obtain DRI development rights prior to receiving final DDRB approval. DRI development rights are allocated to a developer through a Redevelopment Agreement, negotiated by the Office of Economic Development and approved by City Council. Developers are required to mitigate the impacts of their proposed development by adhering to the Consolidated Downtown DRI DO conditions and agreeing to applicable TCEA Mobility Performance Standards.

The downtown area is designated a TCEA and requires developers to agree to implement applicable mobility improvements that promote mixed-use development, increased efficiency of existing roadways, enhanced streetscapes, mass transit ridership, transit oriented design, etc., in lieu of traditional road widening improvements.

I don't think this would have much influence on what they've proposed, since they're getting the retail requirement waived as an initial phase.  They could simply say they are complying with the guidelines, they're just phasing the mix of uses in, which the JEDC/DIA has already agreed too.  Also, they could probably argue that an "enhanced" sidewalk over what exists today, does improve mobility around the site.

Perhaps.

It does open the door for city council to weigh in.  Not saying they will.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:57:42 PM
Good point about council.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: JeffreyS on October 11, 2012, 05:06:21 PM
Members of the council have expressed to me concern about the use of that site being a parking garage. Well ok it was only two of them but hey lets do whatever we can to keep improving this project that the tax payers are ponying up for.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: simms3 on October 11, 2012, 11:21:46 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on October 11, 2012, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Noone on October 11, 2012, 03:57:55 PM
This parking garage sounds like if it does get voted in now it will have to be grandfathered in before the new JTA guy would have said "What are we Doin?"
The new JTA guy has nothing to do with this project.

Just thinking of the pedestrian experience. How close to a bike rack. Transit. Don't pretend to be an expert but if we have a new JTA guy what is an example from where he is coming from?

LoL...not sure there is an example of that kind of impact being generated by Ford in either SF or Atlanta.  This is what I tried to say before on another thread.  Lake would know better than probably most (or Oklawaha being the transit expert), but to me Ford is a big city transit chief who simply knows how to run a big system.  He's not Mr. Creative trying to implement new things or change any paths.  Arguably under Scott and Ford MARTA deteriorated, both in terms of perception in the public and state government and in terms of operations and finances.

Scott is now going to head MBTA in Boston (again these big cities just trade people...Ford went from Atl to SF back to Atl).  Atlanta took a new route and hired a guy from much smaller San Antonio, which only has busses.  This guy had a stellar reputation there and someone from their authority even wrote an editorial in an Atlanta paper saying how blessed we were and how sad they were that he would leave.  He is most known for getting the ball rolling on streetcars there (though nothing has broken ground yet).  Atlanta is laying track now for its first streetcar in generations, so perhaps he was chosen for a reason (reputation builder and streetcar implementer back where he was from, exactly what the board at MARTA feels the system needs).
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: simms3 on October 11, 2012, 11:28:48 PM
And to add, I know in Atl MARTA has nothing to do with improving bike transit or building complete streets.  All up to stakeholders in local CIDs, local NPUs, and non-profits such as Bike Atlanta, Bicycle Coalition, PATH, etc etc.  The city gets involved, but the transit agency has nothing to do with it.  In fact the DRC that impacts me is tied to the NPU and CID in my neighborhood, not to the city.  Code is generalized by the city and specified at the neighborhood level with local representation.  Street projects are funded by CID, not by city.  Even my local police force is barely attached to APD and is instead split funded by APD and the CID and run as a sub-organization called the Midtown Blue (separate uniforms, separate vehicles, separate police station, etc).

If downtown Jax is going to improve, it needs to get serious.  It needs to be its own entity in every way.  DVI needs to advance to the next step and it sure as hell needs a much larger annual budget to get anything substantial done (like all of the complete streets and aesthetic/quality of life improvements we all want built and maintained downtown).  Code needs to be customized to downtown moreso than it is and the DRC should be specific to downtown only, so it can properly serve downtown needs.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 12, 2012, 06:03:34 AM
During the presentation the other day, Ford claimed, while over MARTA he oversaw the implementation of the Lindbergh Station development (billed himself as a TOD expert over the other two finalist).  He also said he implemented the Breeze smart card program.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: simms3 on October 12, 2012, 07:45:21 AM
Breeze maybe, but that was easy...it would have been the only transit system still using tokens if it had not adapted with the times.

TOD?  That's been one of MARTA's big problems (lack of TOD like in DC).  The visionaries behind Lindbergh are a couple of Atlanta developers (someone at a party I was just at was credited and I can't remember who right now).  He may have overseen stuff, but that doesn't mean the ideas were his and seriously, Lindbergh is nothing yet is all Atlanta has in terms of TOD.  There are news articles up here all the time about how pathetic it is.  The last article last week was how MARTA "identified" some stations that could be ripe for TOD.  Stupid.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: thelakelander on October 12, 2012, 08:02:51 AM
Quote from: simms3 on October 12, 2012, 07:45:21 AM
Breeze maybe, but that was easy...it would have been the only transit system still using tokens if it had not adapted with the times.

Lol, that would be JTA.  The SMART card just came out less than a year ago.

QuoteTOD?  That's been one of MARTA's big problems (lack of TOD like in DC).  The visionaries behind Lindbergh are a couple of Atlanta developers (someone at a party I was just at was credited and I can't remember who right now).  He may have overseen stuff, but that doesn't mean the ideas were his and seriously, Lindbergh is nothing yet is all Atlanta has in terms of TOD.  There are news articles up here all the time about how pathetic it is.  The last article last week was how MARTA "identified" some stations that could be ripe for TOD.  Stupid.

It's better than anything we have hear in Jax.  Compared to the others who presented, he stood head and shoulders above them.  Bland was......Bland and too general.  Martin didn't even bother to have someone spell check his power point.
Title: Re: Live blogging DDRB Review of Parador Garage
Post by: dougskiles on October 12, 2012, 08:20:05 AM
I am happy with the choice of Ford.  As far as who gets credit for a project, there is rarely one person who can take full credit for anything.  It takes a number of people working very hard to make anything different happen.  And sometimes the most critical element is the agency director allowing the developers to do their thing.