Metro Jacksonville

Check out this video from the WSJ http://projects.wsj.com/mobile-video/#D7B9A06B-6F7B-4942-A721-9D07E41ACD1E

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 28, 2012, 04:29:19 PM
Check out this video from the WSJ http://projects.wsj.com/mobile-video/#D7B9A06B-6F7B-4942-A721-9D07E41ACD1E

Interesting.

I'm not a fan of bendy buses. Especially as a cyclist. I remember Jax used to have bendy buses years ago, though they were nowhere near as sleek and 'train-like' in appearance as the one in that video. They were made by Grumman, I believe.

I wonder if Jax's BRT service will have bendy buses.

On the topic of BRT in general, I'm not convinced it's a replacement for or an analogue to light rail service - I can see it being a suitable compliment to existing rail services. It seems like a pretty poor choice to offer in lieu of actual rail service.

Quote from: Adam W on September 28, 2012, 05:08:17 PM

Quote from: If_I_Loved_you on September 28, 2012, 04:29:19 PM
Check out this video from the WSJ http://projects.wsj.com/mobile-video/#D7B9A06B-6F7B-4942-A721-9D07E41ACD1E

Interesting.

I'm not a fan of bendy buses. Especially as a cyclist. I remember Jax used to have bendy buses years ago, though they were nowhere near as sleek and 'train-like' in appearance as the one in that video. They were made by Grumman, I believe.

I wonder if Jax's BRT service will have bendy buses.

On the topic of BRT in general, I'm not convinced it's a replacement for or an analogue to light rail service - I can see it being a suitable compliment to existing rail services. It seems like a pretty poor choice to offer in lieu of actual rail service.

You have to have a better Bus service here in Jacksonville Fl light rail service is also needed. But if you first fix the bus system and let it run a lot better then it does. And add light rail out to other places like the beaches and Orange Park etc etc. Then people may begin to give up the car? I have said before in other posts if I lived up in Atlanta my car would be parked a lot more for MARTA would be the way for me to get to just about everywhere I want to go. I'm in my 50's and I feel I will die before light rail makes it to Jacksonville Fl and that is just sad. :( p.s. here is a link to the Cleveland transit website http://www.riderta.com/

Yes, it IS a poor substitute for rail service.

But this is Jacksonville, where TPTB do everything @$$ backwards and on the cheap. (Then act like they did something really special.)

So what is the makeover? Articulated buses are nothing new and yes, Jacksonville DID have them back in the 1970''s. The Twin-Coach came in both diesel and electric models. Twin Coach pioneered the development of the articulated trolley bus in North America, although the first such vehicle in the world was built in Europe slightly earlier, in 1939 (by Isotta Fraschini/Stanga in Italy).  The company built only two articulated trolley buses, and each was marketed as a "Super Twin" model.  Both were originally built as demonstrators. The 1940 unit was eventually sold to the Cleveland transit system and entered service there. The second was built as a gas-powered bus in 1946, but was converted into a trolley bus in 1948, leased to the Chicago Transit Authority and was sold to CTA in 1954. So if articulation is the magic bullet, this story is a dud.

Could Jacksonville support the larger articulated buses of today?  Absolutely, but it would function better if JTA actually had some routes with frequent service serving as arterial bus routes, few by a network of regular city buses, and playing off rail transit to further feed both system types.

^Dam, Ock. Where do you find all this cool stuff?  :)

It's all stored in tiny boxes, neatly stacked in the baggage cars, in the passenger trains running around and around my 'train room'. LOL!

At least you dont have a one track mind!  ;D

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 28, 2012, 09:26:46 PM

(http://inlinethumb52.webshots.com/50995/2016699240104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

So what is the makeover? Articulated buses are nothing new and yes, Jacksonville DID have them back in the 1970''s. The Twin-Coach came in both diesel and electric models. Twin Coach pioneered the development of the articulated trolley bus in North America, although the first such vehicle in the world was built in Europe slightly earlier, in 1939 (by Isotta Fraschini/Stanga in Italy).  The company built only two articulated trolley buses, and each was marketed as a "Super Twin" model.  Both were originally built as demonstrators. The 1940 unit was eventually sold to the Cleveland transit system and entered service there. The second was built as a gas-powered bus in 1946, but was converted into a trolley bus in 1948, leased to the Chicago Transit Authority and was sold to CTA in 1954. So if articulation is the magic bullet, this story is a dud.

Could Jacksonville support the larger articulated buses of today?  Absolutely, but it would function better if JTA actually had some routes with frequent service serving as arterial bus routes, few by a network of regular city buses, and playing off rail transit to further feed both system types.

(http://www.railway-technology.com/projects/madrid-light-rail/images/1-madrid-light-rail.jpg)
Of course about the time the articulated equipment becomes standard on higher patronage bus routes, rail pulls away from the pack again.   ;)

We had bendy buses in the 1980s as well. Don't know what happened to them - I guess they fell out of favor or just broke down and were replaced. I believe they were made by Grumman. These ones were phased in during the 80s, not during the 70s (because I moved to Jax in 1979 and remember them coming into service). I used to ride them when I was in HS.

These were the articulated bendable buses seen in Jacksonville. I never got the chance to ride one in Jacksonville bus most generally had a maximum seated load of 73 passengers. Our ownership of the articulated was the last hurrah of Jacksonville successfully leading anything in Florida mass transit. JTA dispatched these new buses to Orlando, so the operators of the 'tiny' agencies in Orlando, Tampa, etc. could see them.


The largest epic fail in mass transit history (next to the Mobility Plan moratorium or the 'bus is enough' mentality of JTA) was the Grumman Flxible 1982 models. Shortly after mass deliveries were complete, several agencies discovered to their horror that the new Grumman's had cracked 'A Frames,' which means they stood about as good a chance to survive as did the Grumman F4F-3 'Wildcat Fighters' against the Mitsubishi A6M Zero in WWII. Thousands were suddenly sidelined, 500+ EACH in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. Chicago pressed school buses into emergency service much to the delight of many passengers who said it was like 'being a kid again.'

JTA weathered the Grumman-Flxible storm MUCH, MUCH, better then most transit systems, in fact far better then Grumman itself who's bus division collapsed in a miserable heap. 

My favorite as a frequent passenger were the A.M. General's with the huge windows. A.M. General was the heavy vehicle division of American Motors, as the exited the family automobile market.

American Motors was formed in 1954 from the merger of Hudson Motors and Nash-Kelvinator. The deal was the largest corporate merger up to that point - worth $197,793,366 - but was just one phase of a planned megamerger of Hudson, Nash, Studebaker, and Packard.

The combined company would cover all segments of the market, and their size and ability to share engineering would amortize costs nicely; at least, that was the plan of Kelvinator’s George Mason, whose company owned Nash. The name “American Motors” originated with Mason, who started working on the plan just after World War II.

Yep, those were the ones.

They were the first articulated buses I had ever seen (or ridden, for that matter).

What does the inside floor look like in an articulated bus?

Quote from: Jason on October 03, 2012, 12:53:57 PM
What does the inside floor look like in an articulated bus?

Like a regular bus. The articulated bit is a bit weird, but the floor is solid (though it rotates) and the walls are accordion-like. There are pictures at the links below:

http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/181340_419888994718750_648017240_n.jpg (http://a5.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/s720x720/181340_419888994718750_648017240_n.jpg)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kidney_bongos/431321517/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/kidney_bongos/431321517/)

Which routes will be receiving these buses? I can imagine some routes need buses with more capacity, while others could use more frequency and longer hours. I ride a bicycle a couple miles to the end of the CT1 line to get downtown, so I can ride into Riverside to visit friends. Because of how limited the hours are in the evenings, I often have to stay the night with those friends if I want to hang out past 7pm and not have to ride 40 home. As someone from Jacksonville who lived in Chicago and commuted an hour's bus ride into downtown for school/work, it's still hard to get accustomed to a bus that comes but once an hour and only in daylight hours. Makes it hard to attend things meant to attract people to the Core (think Art Walk, film fest), since the route ends so early in the evening.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 29, 2012, 02:01:05 PM

(http://inlinethumb44.webshots.com/49771/2953131210104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
1983, Crown Ikarus model 286, 10 went to JTA.

These were the articulated bendable buses seen in Jacksonville. I never got the chance to ride one in Jacksonville bus most generally had a maximum seated load of 73 passengers. Our ownership of the articulated was the last hurrah of Jacksonville successfully leading anything in Florida mass transit. JTA dispatched these new buses to Orlando, so the operators of the 'tiny' agencies in Orlando, Tampa, etc. could see them.

(http://inlinethumb51.webshots.com/2034/2272568700104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Grumman Flxible MODEL 870.

The largest epic fail in mass transit history (next to the Mobility Plan moratorium or the 'bus is enough' mentality of JTA) was the Grumman Flxible 1982 models. Shortly after mass deliveries were complete, several agencies discovered to their horror that the new Grumman's had cracked 'A Frames,' which means they stood about as good a chance to survive as did the Grumman F4F-3 'Wildcat Fighters' against the Mitsubishi A6M Zero in WWII. Thousands were suddenly sidelined, 500+ EACH in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. Chicago pressed school buses into emergency service much to the delight of many passengers who said it was like 'being a kid again.'

JTA weathered the Grumman-Flxible storm MUCH, MUCH, better then most transit systems, in fact far better then Grumman itself who's bus division collapsed in a miserable heap. 

My favorite as a frequent passenger were the A.M. General's with the huge windows. A.M. General was the heavy vehicle division of American Motors, as the exited the family automobile market.

American Motors was formed in 1954 from the merger of Hudson Motors and Nash-Kelvinator. The deal was the largest corporate merger up to that point - worth $197,793,366 - but was just one phase of a planned megamerger of Hudson, Nash, Studebaker, and Packard.

The combined company would cover all segments of the market, and their size and ability to share engineering would amortize costs nicely; at least, that was the plan of Kelvinator’s George Mason, whose company owned Nash. The name “American Motors” originated with Mason, who started working on the plan just after World War II.

(http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/49983/2851172860104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
A.M. General "Rattler" as the JTA drivers called them.

The Crown Ikaruses & AM General Rattlers were ok. (And yes, they rattled) My personal favorite will always be the GM "fishbowl" from the late 60s early 70s. Now THAT was a bus. If they could bring those back somehow, I might quit griping about JTA not having rail service  ;)

We live on the L9 bus route.  The bus goes right by our front door. Others run nearby. They are usually empty, or with maybe half a dozen passengers. Why are we buying bigger busses? Don't they use more gas?  Shouldn't we be running smaller ones?  Has anyone seen a full bus lately?  I haven't seen a full bus since the 1970's, unless it was a shuttle to the Jags game.

Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 18, 2012, 10:45:12 PM
We live on the L9 bus route.  The bus goes right by our front door. Others run nearby. They are usually empty, or with maybe half a dozen passengers. Why are we buying bigger busses? Don't they use more gas?  Shouldn't we be running smaller ones?  Has anyone seen a full bus lately?  I haven't seen a full bus since the 1970's, unless it was a shuttle to the Jags game.

The trend with JTA has been toward smaller buses, these are used on the community shuttles.

The problem with smaller buses is 75% of your cost is labor, and only about 25% can be recovered from the farebox. So a smaller bus has virtually zero chance of breaking even (as if that were really a goal). Add to this that the difference in fuel economy for a smaller shuttle type bus and a large diesel, electric or hybrid bus is extremely small, so there are no significant savings there either.

Passenger loads are very fluid, a bus that leaves empty from the end of the line in Mandarin on a morning commute might be standing room only by the time it rolls through Deerwood Center, then nearly empty arriving at Rosa Parks. The loads tend to roll up and down like waves on the sea and the very worst thing that one can do is leave passengers standing at the curb because there is no place to sit or stand.

Consider too that buses are not restricted to single routes, a bus with huge capacity but a talent for being hard on fuel might be rotated to a shorter and less frequent route while a smaller bus might have to fill in (as long as the math works) on that longer route. It's part art and part science, but a large city with a fleet of small buses is looking for huge headaches.

Just as a footnote, we also need motor coaches, over-the-road, Greyhound like coaches for our long commute runs. This is an area where JTA has been sorely lacking making due with just a handful of aging MCI's, which have bare interiors. A city with major corporate HQ's and the potential of subscription-fares, needs to pull out all of the stops when ordering the next generation of longer distance express coaches. Wi-Fi, restroom, overhead racks, 110 volt outlets, reclining seats, seat back tables, TV, GPS-such as 'Next Bus', and even a coffee bar. Offer a premium service for a premium price and we'd pack them in.

Hope this helps.