Portland Oregon, (pop 593k) who has a very extensive light rail system (Tri Met) has seen extensive growth in their heavy rail commuter line run by Amtrak (22% over EOY 2011).
(http://media.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/photo/10639487-small.jpg)
This commuter line only runs 15 miles to Oregon City, but replaces a 1 hour car commute and reaches the outer rim of suburbs not served by Tri Met in only 20 minutes.
(http://media.oregonlive.com/oregonian/photo/2012/03/10643352-large.jpg)
Portland used to be a major interurban hub in the Willamette Basin and until that was torn up immediately after WWII has relied on cars heavily. When a TriMet funding act was passed, Portland was wise to implement a urban planning zone as part of the legislation. This required that all zoning in the MPA had to be transit aware. This has allowed TriMet to grow along with the increase in density.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7e/PortlandTriMetMAX.jpg/300px-PortlandTriMetMAX.jpg)
While Portland had to implement this plan due to the encroachment on the mountains and the Columbia River basin, it is a textbook lesson that light urban rail can co-exist with ex-urban heavy rail as long as the MPA follows their own plans and rules to urban area zoning.
Jacksonville is probably in the same position Portland was in the early 1980's. No mountains to contain the population here (just an ocean), but at the right place to implement an urban planning zone to compliment a new light rail funding initiative. With Amtrak/AAF being the ex-urban complimentary heavy rail component similar to Portland, there is a great opportunity here if the region can support it.
TriMet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TriMet)
Article on Amtrak in Portland
http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/03/amtrak_gaining_popularity_amon.html (http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/index.ssf/2012/03/amtrak_gaining_popularity_amon.html)
We basically have a similar model with the mobility plan funding streetcar in the urban core and Amtrak/AAF possibly providing service down the FEC. All you would need on either of those two systems is a station downtown, a satellite at the Avenues and one in St. Augustine and you basically have the Amtrak Casades model.
The wildcard is JTA's proposed commuter rail system which most likely won't even have a single line up and running until after 2020. Questions would include...
1. What's the validity of commuter rail on the FEC if parallel BRT and AAF comes online?
2. Given the landscape of the Northside, does commuter rail work better as a DMU line with LRT-like service?
3. We show BRT heading to the beaches down Beach Blvd. However, most of Southside's major destinations are along the JTB corridor. How do we address transit connectivity in the Southside and still efficiently access/serve the beaches?
4. With Sunrail happening on the CSX A Line, congestion on Blanding and Roosevelt, and a significant portion of existing freight traffic being relocated from it, does the CSX A line between downtown, Riverside, Murray Hill and Clay County make sense as the first commuter rail corridor instead of the FEC? Sound it be traditional commuter rail or should some sort of hybrid system be considered on it as well?
Nice catch Spuwho, I lived in Portland for several years, one of the great loves of my life lived in nearby Boring. I miss the mountains in Oregon, Medellin, or the American west in general.
Just so there is no confusion Amtrak, or Tri-Met DO NOT operate 'heavy rail.' Heavy Rail is a description used for subways and elevated urban metro systems. The metros are more expensive to build then standard conventional rail systems. The trains in Portland would be properly called 'intercity rail' or 'corridor rail', which is also 'intercity' in nature. Tri-Met operates Light Rail, Streetcar and aerial cable systems, as well as extensive bus operations.
(http://laist.com/attachments/lindsayrebecca/Amtrak_Surfliner.jpg)
INTERCITY RAIL, Amtrak, this could also be a corridor train on an intercity schedule.
(http://www.dallasnews.com/incoming/20110614-drc_052611_atrain_10.jpg.ece/BINARY/w620x413/DRC_052611_Atrain_10.jpg)
COMMUTER RAIL, The wonderful Denton TX 'A-Train'. Anyone that doesn't think Jacksonville can do this check out: http://www.dcta.net/a-train/a-train/menu-id-132.html
(http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/I0000JqqPf0OKzck/s/650/650/Medellin-Metro-Medellin-Colombia.jpg)
HEAVY RAIL, This is our system in Medellin, Colombia. You can click on 'ENGLISH' to check this out, but in Jacksonville you can't click on Spanish, or Tagalog, or Arabic, or... : http://www.metrodemedellin.gov.co
(http://www.subwaynut.com/hblr/newhblrl.jpg)
LIGHT RAIL, This is the Hudson-Bergen system. http://www.njtransit.com/sf/sf_servlet.srv?hdnPageAction=LightRailTo
(http://wvs.topleftpixel.com/photos/2007/10/streetcar_king-sherbourne_01.jpg)
STREETCAR, This one can also operate on grade separated track which is often heavily landscaped,
http://www.ttc.ca/Routes/Streetcars.jsp
(http://www.monorails.org/webpix%202/CnstMM09.jpg)
MONORAIL, Moscow has gone far beyond what JTA started and never finished. http://www.mosmetro.ru/stations/mmts/
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Metrocable.JPG)
AERIAL CABLE, Another piece of the Medellin Metro, this is the METRO CABLE system and I'd encourage everyone to check out http://www.medellininfo.com/metro/index.html
Quote from: thelakelander on September 24, 2012, 10:17:11 PM
We basically have a similar model with the mobility plan funding streetcar in the urban core and Amtrak/AAF possibly providing service down the FEC. All you would need on either of those two systems is a station downtown, a satellite at the Avenues and one in St. Augustine and you basically have the Amtrak Casades model.
The wildcard is JTA's proposed commuter rail system which most likely won't even have a single line up and running until after 2020. Questions would include...
1. What's the validity of commuter rail on the FEC if parallel BRT and AAF comes online?
I don't think the BRT will affect the rail ridership at all, actually rail is the big dog and will take longer steps between stations and have a much more distant reach. With a station at the Avenues I could see Sunshine Bus sending their Jacksonville connection up SR13 to Julington Creek/Mandarin instead of US-1 to the Avenues Mall.
Quote2. Given the landscape of the Northside, does commuter rail work better as a DMU line with LRT-like service?
Such a short and extremely dense line would work better as light-rail. I believe the proposed stops are too close together for a DMU or RDC car, or locomotive hauled train. If it was light-rail it could tie into the 'Electric 7' proposal that I laid out,
Quote3. We show BRT heading to the beaches down Beach Blvd. However, most of Southside's major destinations are along the JTB corridor. How do we address transit connectivity in the Southside and still efficiently access/serve the beaches?
If there was ever a place where PRT would actually work, this is it! The PRT lines could meed the BRT or Light Rail along the boulevards. I would consider a study of a VERY LIGHT PRT system.
Quote4. With Sunrail happening on the CSX A Line, congestion on Blanding and Roosevelt, and a significant portion of existing freight traffic being relocated from it, does the CSX A line between downtown, Riverside, Murray Hill and Clay County make sense as the first commuter rail corridor instead of the FEC? Sound it be traditional commuter rail or should some sort of hybrid system be considered on it as well?
Because of the freight rail on those lines which operate at higher speeds, both should be traditional commuter rail using an RDC or compliant DMU. It shouldn't be an either/or situation, BOTH ROUTES need to come online about the same time as they, along with northside LRT would feed each other. I know what the 'expert studies' say, but I'm betting the 'A' line is actually more popular then the FEC route, though the FEC line will perform quite well from the Avenues to St. Augustine.
We also have the opportunity to recruit the FEC to open up their own passenger service, which is what they want anyway. So rather then jump though all of the hoops, we should help them plan it, then subsidize it's operation.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 24, 2012, 11:14:25 PM
I don't think the BRT will affect the rail ridership at all, actually rail is the big dog and will take longer steps between stations and have a much more distant reach. With a station at the Avenues I could see Sunshine Bus sending their Jacksonville connection up SR13 to Julington Creek/Mandarin instead of US-1 to the Avenues Mall.
I believe it will. Realistically speaking, BRT will run every 10-15 minutes and JTA's commuter rail will probably run every hour or two at best and probably not at all on the weekends. If you have AAF running on the FEC at similar frequencies of the Orlando/Miami proposal, between those two modes, you're already serving that corridor pretty well. Imo, take your local rail money and spend it somewhere else with more limited transit services.
QuoteQuote2. Given the landscape of the Northside, does commuter rail work better as a DMU line with LRT-like service?
Such a short and extremely dense line would work better as light-rail. I believe the proposed stops are too close together for a DMU or RDC car, or locomotive hauled train. If it was light-rail it could tie into the 'Electric 7' proposal that I laid out,
How is Austin's service currently working out? The Northside's station spacing will be pretty similar to Austin's.
QuoteQuote3. We show BRT heading to the beaches down Beach Blvd. However, most of Southside's major destinations are along the JTB corridor. How do we address transit connectivity in the Southside and still efficiently access/serve the beaches?
If there was ever a place where PRT would actually work, this is it! The PRT lines could meed the BRT or Light Rail along the boulevards. I would consider a study of a VERY LIGHT PRT system.
Only if money grew on trees. I personally think it makes more sense to run LRT long term parallel to JTB. San Diego's Green Line in Mission Valley is eerily similar to the JTB corridor and works very well.
QuoteQuote4. With Sunrail happening on the CSX A Line, congestion on Blanding and Roosevelt, and a significant portion of existing freight traffic being relocated from it, does the CSX A line between downtown, Riverside, Murray Hill and Clay County make sense as the first commuter rail corridor instead of the FEC? Sound it be traditional commuter rail or should some sort of hybrid system be considered on it as well?
Because of the freight rail on those lines which operate at higher speeds, both should be traditional commuter rail using an RDC or compliant DMU. It shouldn't be an either/or situation, BOTH ROUTES need to come online about the same time as they, along with northside LRT would feed each other. I know what the 'expert studies' say, but I'm betting the 'A' line is actually more popular then the FEC route, though the FEC line will perform quite well from the Avenues to St. Augustine.
We also have the opportunity to recruit the FEC to open up their own passenger service, which is what they want anyway. So rather then jump though all of the hoops, we should help them plan it, then subsidize it's operation.
If I'm a betting man and JTA is currently stating their first commuter rail corridor won't come online to after 2020, I don't think the FEC line ends up being feasible to land federal dollars. Commuter rail to St. Augustine won't be worth a crap if AAF connects Jax to St. Augustine with hourly service five years before construction starts on a JTA line along the same corridor (and BRT essentially makes all your local stops anyway).