Metro Jacksonville

The finalist to replace Michael Blaylock at JTA.  Btw, I agree with Councilman Bishop.  I'd like to see JTA become a transit only agency.

QuoteStephen Bland, CEO of the Port Authority of Allegheny County in Pittsburgh.

Carolyn Flowers, CEO of the Charlotte Area Transit System in North Carolina.

Mikel Oglesby, general manager of the SunLine Transit Agency in Riverside County in Southern California.

Frank Martin, senior vice president of business development for transit and rail with Atkins North America, a design and consulting firm in Clermont, Fla.

Nathaniel Ford, former executive director of the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency.

full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-09-17/story/new-jta-leader-could-mean-new-direction-authority

Time to learn a little more about each one.  I noticed the first 3 on the list (the ones who are still employed at other agencies) did not apply for the job.  The search firm determined that they would be good candidates and each one of them agreed to be included on this list.  The final 2 somehow made the list late (not sure why).

Stephen Bland went so far as to say that he doesn't want to leave the Pittsburgh area.

They all appear to have experience with transit.  Which one will have the personality strong enough to fight for the funding JTA needs to continue to survive?  Which one has been the most successful integrating transit with land development?

I too was glad to read Councilman Bishop's comments about JTA's focus.

Here's some information about Nathaniel Ford leaving Muni last year:

(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQD8HxIJXRkuTPlbs9zc5DSbgDi96p_-BD_7zul197Ooki1KYRu-g)

QuoteMuni sends chief Nat Ford packing from the SF transit agency

Soon after the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency concluded contentious contract talks with transit operators, its board asked Executive Director Nathaniel Ford to step down, which he will do at month’s end.

“The board approached me about making a change, and while we both thought now was the right time, it was ultimately their decision,” Ford said Wednesday night.

Ford had frequently been rumored to be a candidate for other transit posts, most recently in March, when he seemed about to depart for the Metropolitan Washington Airports Authority. His apparent desire to leave irritated some agency insiders.

However, SFMTA watchers said no such action made sense until Muni wrapped up negotiations with operators.

Monday night, an independent arbitrator imposed a three-year contract and essentially ended the months-long campaign.

“This just seems like the right time for him and the agency,” SFMTA Chairman Tom Nolan said. “This is not a termination, and I think Nat seemed very much at peace with this decision.”

Ford, who joined the agency in 2006 and earns $308,000 a year, recently signed a two-year contract extension.

full article: http://www.sfexaminer.com/local/2011/06/san-francisco-transit-agency-sends-chief-nathaniel-ford-his-way

Here's some information on Frank Martin:

(http://www.comto.org/resource/resmgr/board_of_directors/martin,_frank.jpg)

QuoteMartin re-elected to American Public Transportation Association’s Business Member Board of Governors - November 8, 2011

Tampa, FL â€" Atkins’ senior vice president and national transit business sector manager Frank T. Martin, was recently re-elected by the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) to serve on its Business Member Board of Governors (BMBG). Martin began his two-year term in October.

According to the APTA, the BMBG is responsible for directing and establishing activities for APTA’s business members and developing policy recommendations to its executive committee and board of directors. Their objectives include encouragement of greater business member participation in APTA; development of better communication between governmental bodies and APTA business members; and providing APTA with continuing support in its efforts to represent the public transit industry.

In his current role with Atkins, Martin is responsible for overseeing all aspects of transit, including business development, operations, and resource management. Before joining Atkins in 2004, Martin was the chief operating officer of the Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority in San Jose, California.

In 2006 Florida Governor Jeb Bush appointed Martin to the 17-member Florida Board of Governors, the constitutional body created by voters in 2002 and established in 2003 as a governing body for the State University System of Florida. (www.flbog.org) Martin is former chair of the Transportation Research Board’s Transit Cooperative Research Program J-7 Panel that applies contract research programs to develop near-term, practical solutions to current problems facing the transportation industry (http://www.trb.org/TCRP/TCRP.aspx). In September 2005 he was elected to the American Public Transportation Association (www.apta.com) Board of Directors, serving a four-year term representing the Business Members Board of Governors. In 2004 and in 2006 he chaired the Nominating Committee for the Conference of Minority Transportation Officials and the Annual Fund Raising Chair for the Dallas Conference in 2009  (http://www.comto.org).

Martin holds a master’s degree in urban and regional planning from Fisk University and a bachelor’s degree in business administration from Tennessee State University.

http://northamerica.atkinsglobal.com/media-center/press-releases/2011/martin-re-elected-to-american-public-transportation-associations-business-member-board-of-governors

Information on Mike Oglesby:

(http://cmsimg.gdn.mydesert.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=J1&Date=20120914&Category=NEWS01&ArtNo=309140038&Ref=AR&MaxW=300&Border=0&SunLine-chief-C-Mikel-Oglesby-eyeing-Florida-position)

QuoteSunLine Transit Agency General Manager C. Mikel Oglesby is a finalist for the same position at the transit agency in Jacksonville, Fla., he and SunLine board president Robert Spiegel confirmed.

Jacksonville Transportation Authority Board President Edward Burr announced Aug. 30 that a consulting firm the agency hired had chosen Oglesby as a finalist for its general manager position, along with two other transportation officials, the Florida Times-Union in Jacksonville reported. The board can reject those recommendations and choose any other candidate.

Oglesby said he wasn’t job-searching, and that it was “very early in the game to even comment on something that’s so premature.”

“I’ve not been seeking the job, have not been interviewed and have not been to Jacksonville,” he said. “But I was contacted by a firm and agreed to let them put my hat in the ring.”

Oglesby, who has run SunLine since 2004, said it was not the first time a head-hunting firm contacted him to put him into consideration for a job at another transportation agency.

“I’m happy to be considered one of the leaders in the industry,” he said.

full article: http://www.mydesert.com/article/20120914/NEWS01/309140038/Mikel-Oglesby-SunLine-Transit-Agency-Florida-position

Some information on Carolyn Flowers.

(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQAKSmlCC7lTJ5MyVAZ8GTahGMTdliZkkObmU7x3n8oJnoYlUM_Cw)

QuoteCharlotte transit CEO Carolyn Flowers recommended for Jacksonville post

Charlotte Area Transit System Chief Executive Carolyn Flowers is among three executives a consultant has recommended to be head of the Jacksonville Transportation Authority in Florida â€" even though Flowers hasn’t applied for the job.

Olaf Kinard, CATS director of marketing and communications, confirms Flowers is among the three top choices Krauthamer & Associates has forwarded to the Jacksonville agency. But he says she wasn’t among the 90 candidates who applied for the post and she hasn’t interviewed for it.

Flowers couldn’t be reached for comment.

“It’s never a surprise that someone would be interested” in Flowers, Kinard says. “She’s an excellent CEO, and she has done a lot to advance the Blue Line (light-rail system) and other transit corridors” in Charlotte.

full article: http://www.bizjournals.com/charlotte/news/2012/08/31/charlotte-transit-ceo-carolyn-flowers.html

Some more information on Stephen Bland.

(http://triblive.com/csp/mediapool/sites/dt.common.streams.StreamServer.cls?STREAMOID=nLZ6US8D6JcYJopbRG_Zfc$daE2N3K4ZzOUsqbU5sYu8EpWh1HhXrvGWgSNVqh3eWCsjLu883Ygn4B49Lvm9bPe2QeMKQdVeZmXF$9l$4uCZ8QDXhaHEp3rvzXRJFdy0KqPHLoMevcTLo3h8xh70Y6N_U_CryOsw6FTOdKL_jpQ-&CONTENTTYPE=image/jpeg)

QuotePort Authority of Allegheny County CEO Steve Bland is a finalist for the top post at a Florida transit agency that is about one-fifth the size of Pittsburgh’s.

But Bland, 50, would get a six-figure raise if he gets the job with Jacksonville Transportation Authority, if the current CEO’s salary is any indication.

“I was approached to see if I would consider submitting my qualifications to the board of directors as a potential finalist for consideration. I ultimately agreed to do so,” Bland said on Friday after news surfaced that he is a finalist along with transit executives from Charlotte and Riverside County, Calif.

“I have not visited Jacksonville nor had any further conversations with members of their board or community leadership since that time,” Bland said.

full article: http://triblive.com/home/2517334-74/authority-bland-port-florida-jacksonville-allegheny-applied-board-consider-county#axzz26ouTbp25

Reported salaries from a quick google search:

Nathaniel Ford - $308,000 (2011)

Michael Blaylock - $273,000 (2012)

Mikel Oglesby - $208,000 (2010)

Carolyn Flowers - $197,000 (2009)

Steve Bland - $185,000 (2012)

Whoever wins will get a fat raise!

I would take Bland or Flowers, Bland is also one of the two finalist for the MARTA CEO job.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2012, 12:27:59 AM
Stephen Bland, CEO of the Port Authority of Allegheny County in Pittsburgh.

A large transit agency that is THE pioneer in abandoning rail in favor of Bus Rapid Transit, a fact which has come back to bite them square in the butt with plummeting ridership. They moved all remaining streetcars off the streets downtown and placed them in an over costly subway. Sounds like Jacksonville material to me.

QuoteCarolyn Flowers, CEO of the Charlotte Area Transit System in North Carolina.

A Jacksonville size agency that has broken the mold and is rapidly adding commuter rail, light-rail and streetcar as fast as they can find funding.

QuoteMikel Oglesby, general manager of the SunLine Transit Agency in Riverside County in Southern California.

A tiny bus only agency in the high desert which has little in common with JTA.

QuoteFrank Martin, senior vice president of business development for transit and rail with Atkins North America, a design and consulting firm in Clermont, Fla.

Great, but can he spell R-a-i-l?

QuoteNathaniel Ford, former executive director of the San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency.

Like Flowers, this is one of the county's number one rail based agency's.

Will Jacksonville do the right thing?

Sounds like Flowers or Ford for taking Jax forward.  I would really prefer one that favors rail, and has experience in this area.  Maybe they could get Amtrak back to downtown, and redo the transportaion center.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2012, 07:42:31 AM
Reported salaries from a quick google search:

Nathaniel Ford - $308,000 (2011)

Michael Blaylock - $273,000 (2012)

Mikel Oglesby - $208,000 (2010)

Carolyn Flowers - $197,000 (2009)

Steve Bland - $185,000 (2012)

Whoever wins will get a fat raise!

I believe the salary for this job will be around $250k

^Still a fat raise.  Any idea why Blaylock's salary was so high in comparison with these heads from larger agencies?

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2012, 10:42:26 AM
^Still a fat raise.  Any idea why Blaylock's salary was so high in comparison with these heads from larger agencies?

I doubt that the agencies themselves are much larger, if any, considering what all JTA does in construction. I believe that Charlotte's agency is substantially smaller than JTA, for instance.

HERE ARE SOME HARD FIGURES SO YOU CAN MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND.

San Francisco is number 8 in the top 50 for unlinked passenger trips

Pittsburgh is number 25

Charlotte is number 49

Jacksonville doesn't make this list, but then neither does SunLine.

TOP TRANSIT BUS FLEETS 2010 data:

Pittsburgh - 25
San Francisco - 26
Charlotte - 44
JACKSONVILLE - 95

JACKSONVILLE'S FLEET, NUMBER 95, RANKS BEHIND  THE FOLLOWING REGIONAL RIVALS -

MIAMI - 24
ATLANTA - 34
CHARLOTTE - 44
POMPANO/BROWARD - 53
ORLANDO - 69
MEMPHIS - 80
NASHVILLE - 87
CLEARWATER/ST PETE - 88
TAMPA - 92

SLIDE INFORMATION BOXES TO THE LEFT TO READ ALL DATA:

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-LBJUmGPaTq8/UFjQo4Ua1BI/AAAAAAAAGDA/WEE993Fiut8/s800/Screen%2520Shot%25202012-09-18%2520at%25203.45.15%2520PM.png)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-IUgSdcmVuiY/UFjQo8XRMSI/AAAAAAAAGDI/dcmttFwIJ_c/s800/Screen%2520Shot%25202012-09-18%2520at%25203.46.05%2520PM.png)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-WcQXFtCiv8k/UFjQo8k1VgI/AAAAAAAAGDE/N0PvZyl_ySU/s800/Screen%2520Shot%25202012-09-18%2520at%25203.47.21%2520PM.png)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-eDqaAmIMuek/UFjQpTRq29I/AAAAAAAAGDY/AcRGkeLvfL0/s800/Screen%2520Shot%25202012-09-18%2520at%25203.48.34%2520PM.png)

It simply has to do with the road building aspect of the agency and execution of the better jax program. Not so much related to size of the transit function of the agency.

True,  but as roads and bridges are likely to be taken away it will leave JTA as a transit agency represented by the numbers I posted. Sad when one considers Orlando and St. Petersburg are bigger, and Gainesville carry's as many passengers even though we have two universities and several colleges along our own routes.

That's IF the roads and bridges are taken away, which is unlikely to be contingent on this one hire. As is, the head of JTA will run JTA which has a considerable construction element most other transportation agencies do not have.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 18, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
True,  but as roads and bridges are likely to be taken away it will leave JTA as a transit agency represented by the numbers I posted. Sad when one considers Orlando and St. Petersburg are bigger, and Gainesville carry's as many passengers even though we have two universities and several colleges along our own routes.

Gainesville and Tallahassee are not fair comparisons....50,000 students at UF and 43,000 at FSU compared with less than 25,000 combined at UNF and JU

Plus, both cities transit systems get millions from their universities each year in return for making the system "fare-free" for students and some staff...plus you have a captive market of students whose parking can be severly restricted.

Now UNF has started a transit service on campus...and with their new policy that all freshmen live on campus, parking can be minimized and transit ridership could go up....but of course it isn't operated by JTA so it doesn't count in their figures.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 18, 2012, 10:42:26 AM
^Still a fat raise.  Any idea why Blaylock's salary was so high in comparison with these heads from larger agencies?

Because there is no checks and balances.
An Independent Authority.
The outgoing JTA director gets a golden parachute that was approved by the Board.
City council is voting on a budget that will include free parking for some of themselves. 2012-202
Also you have to have a compensation bar for the newest Independent Authority that has just been created.
next council meeting is approval of the newest appointment of DIA Board members.
So can you just imagine how the Board will now vote and approve a compensation package for the New DIA director.
Cha -Ching.

I guess someone from Pittsburgh would be happy to see Bland leave.....

QuoteSanDee1    09/18/12 - 09:18 pm

The citizens of Pittsburgh and the surrounding areas would LOVE to get rid of, umm, make that have Bland be JTA's new head honcho considering what has gone on under his watch there. Yippee, one more reason for me to go back home!!!!

http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-09-17/story/new-jta-leader-could-mean-new-direction-authority#comment-646593

A FRESH OKLA-RANT!

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 18, 2012, 05:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 18, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
True,  but as roads and bridges are likely to be taken away it will leave JTA as a transit agency represented by the numbers I posted. Sad when one considers Orlando and St. Petersburg are bigger, and Gainesville caries as many passengers even though we have two universities and several colleges along our own routes.

Gainesville and Tallahassee are not fair comparisons....50,000 students at UF and 43,000 at FSU compared with less than 25,000 combined at UNF and JU

Plus, both cities transit systems get millions from their universities each year in return for making the system "fare-free" for students and some staff...plus you have a captive market of students whose parking can be severly restricted.

Now UNF has started a transit service on campus...and with their new policy that all freshmen live on campus, parking can be minimized and transit ridership could go up....but of course it isn't operated by JTA so it doesn't count in their figures.

Who said anything about Tallahassee?

Unfair? Hardly, more like inept leadership at JTA being a reason why UNF started their own transit service. RTS (Gainesville) operates FREQUENTLY all over the UF campus... where is JTA? 16,500 students and faculty are not enough to get JTA to the table? Over at FSCJ,  7,535 full time students and 18,151 part time at various campuses, get the typical 30-45 minute headway JTA 'accommodation,' which is quite shy of a real 'service.' 751 more at Edward Waters College, 3,715 over at JU and toss in 1,753 more at the FCSL, all get the, "Well the bus comes around every hour or so, so the students definitely have 'convenient transit, even if they have to stand in the rain and wait," excuse. As long as our 'Transportation Authority' is missing in action, it's a fair comparison.

Has ANYONE at JTA ever thought what a community shuttle running on 15 minute headways during school day and evening hours, between the schools (thus connecting all school facilities with each other), and research facilities such as the 3.5 million volumes at the downtown library? Or perhaps directly linking the schools with the Beaches, Highlands, Mandarin, Pablo Creek, Regency Square, South Mandarin, Southeast, Wesconnett, West Regional, Argyle, Northwest, Brentwood, Myrtle Avenue, Maxville, Murray Hill, Eastside, San Marco, University Park, Westbrook or maybe Willowbranch libraries? Recreation facilities? Military Bases (which often have excellent training facilities and thousands of college age - education paid - students or prospective students).

Likewise has JTA ever thought about a career focused shuttle? How about linking all of our major medical facilities with a dedicated frequent service? Have they ever sat down with the commander of Kings Bay, Marine Corps Blount Island Command, Mayport, JIA Air National Guard, NAS JAX and the various armory's? Hell they even managed to miss the massive Baptist Hospital and the oldest insurance building on the south bank with the Skyway, and there is no easy way to walk from the San Marco Station. This is not to mention Shand's, San Marco, Brooklyn and the Stadium District somehow fell off the Skyway's goals.

No excuses, JTA is a rogue agency that needs to focus 100% on mass transit or highways, but not both. It's fleet and 'accommodations' have fallen sharply behind many regional towns and cities, and TRUE SERVICE is nearly nonexistent.

END OF RANT...

Flower's candidacy has made the Charlotte newspaper this morning.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/09/19/3539890/cats-flowers-on-short-list-for.html

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2012, 12:37:14 PM
Unfair? Hardly, more like inept leadership at JTA being a reason why UNF started their own transit service. RTS (Gainesville) operates FREQUENTLY all over the UF campus... where is JTA? 16,500 students and faculty are not enough to get JTA to the table? Over at FSCJ,  7,535 full time students and 18,151 part time at various campuses, get the typical 30-45 minute headway JTA 'accommodation,' which is quite shy of a real 'service.' 751 more at Edward Waters College, 3,715 over at JU and toss in 1,753 more at the FCSL, all get the, "Well the bus comes around every hour or so, so the students definitely have 'convenient transit, even if they have to stand in the rain and wait," excuse. As long as our 'Transportation Authority' is missing in action, it's a fair comparison.

and RTS got redesigned to center on the UF campus as part of the campus development agreement....whereby UF pays RTS millions of dollars each year to offset their transportation impact to the community

come on Ock, I know you know better....JTA may have a long way to go, but there are lots of reasons Gainesville has a successful transit system that can't be easily replicated here.

For the love of God, just don't hire the guy from Florida!

Lol, I think I may fall in your camp, at this point.  Let's find someone who actually knows (this includes having recent public transit experience) how to build a public transit system who also isn't afraid to be a leader, even if it means taking a position that may rock the political boat here.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 19, 2012, 01:19:49 PM
and RTS got redesigned to center on the UF campus as part of the campus development agreement....whereby UF pays RTS millions of dollars each year to offset their transportation impact to the community

come on Ock, I know you know better....JTA may have a long way to go, but there are lots of reasons Gainesville has a successful transit system that can't be easily replicated here.

Do I? Sorry TUFSU1, I am of the belief that in spite of our local schools smaller size, and our city not being the most populous metro area in Florida, there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't lead the entire nation in mass transit. If you really want to talk apples to apples, there is one other great port city in this country with a nearly identical population, identical industrial base, and split by a great river... PORTLAND, OREGON. Portland has chosen leaders, it has become the model of successful urban areas based almost entirely on rail or aerial cable mass transit. If Jacksonville had the will, the guts and the innovative spirit shown in our northwest twin, we could easily be 'PORTLAND-SOUTH.'

It would be amazing and refreshing to have Jacksonville actually recruit a leader at JTA that can spell RAIL.

Quote from: urbaknight on September 19, 2012, 02:35:11 PM
For the love of God, just don't hire the guy from Florida!

I'm not saying hire the guy....but note that he works at a consulting firm with Florida as his home base...he has managed transit agency contracts in Atlanta, Miami, Houston, Phoenix, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2012, 03:28:38 PM
Do I? Sorry TUFSU1, I am of the belief that in spite of our local schools smaller size, and our city not being the most populous metro area in Florida, there is absolutely no reason why we couldn't lead the entire nation in mass transit. If you really want to talk apples to apples, there is one other great port city in this country with a nearly identical population, identical industrial base, and split by a great river... PORTLAND, OREGON. Portland has chosen leaders, it has become the model of successful urban areas based almost entirely on rail or aerial cable mass transit. If Jacksonville had the will, the guts and the innovative spirit shown in our northwest twin, we could easily be 'PORTLAND-SOUTH.'

It would be amazing and refreshing to have Jacksonville actually recruit a leader at JTA that can spell RAIL.

sorry ock, but Portland has at least one big thing we don't have....a highly educated populace.

TUFSU1, I believe your making excuses for JTA. The reason that Portland is a world model isn't because they have a highly educated populace, and we don't. We lead Portland in High School Grads, people with 'some college' and those with an associate degree. Several cities including Portland lead us in bachelors or graduate degrees but counting all students age 25 or under, Portland has exactly 11,627 more then Jacksonville. That's roughly the population of Palatka, hardly a stellar difference.

Fact is, Portland has imported transit talent, it has cultivated transit talent, and Portland could actually be called "The Bold New City Of The Northwest." Here's the actual data:



So what about other cities that have embraced rail, either old, new, or planned? Well there is Memphis, which already has a growing streetcar system using actual historic cars as a vital piece of the regional transit agency. Based on your argument, Memphis should be light-years ahead of Jacksonville in the education field, but we blow them away in EVERY category.  That Memphis streetcar track is built to light-rail standards and will make a great downtown loop for fast light-rail trains into the burb's at some future date. This is called planning ahead, and it apparently didn't take rocket scientists to work it out.



What about a city with the oldest continuously operated streetcar system in the United States? A system largely abandoned then given a last hour stay of execution only to be wiped out in 'an act of God.' Sorry, no cigar. New Orleans also gets trashed by Jacksonville's education numbers. Though they, like several other cities, lead us in percentages of grad students, we have many more actual people with advanced degrees.



Norfolk should be an interesting case study, here is a southern/mid-Atlantic city that has just opened an amazing starter line that now has disbelievers in Virginia Beach begging for a link. So is Norfolk's population smarter? Not even close to Jacksonville's actual numbers, Norfolk does have a less then 1% lead in graduate degrees completed, but the actual numbers show Jacksonville with a lead of 28,046 people that actually have completed a grad degree. Yet even with our own highly educated populace, we are continuously screwed by JTA, FDOT, COJ... etc...



Lastly, how about a city that has fought the good fight and come out a winner in the race to get new streetcar systems up and running? Cincinnati, Ohio, The Midwest, The Industrial Heartland...etc. Surely Cincinnati's population is highly educated beyond Jacksonville's wildest dreams? One might be forgiven for thinking so, after all we have more high school dropouts then Cincinnati, or Norfolk, or New Orleans, or Memphis, or Portland. But we also have about 100,398 more high school graduates then Cincinnati, 82,704 more people with some college then Cincinnati, 33,071 more people with associates degrees then Cincinnati, 50,790 more people with bachelors degrees then Cincinnati, 16,537 more people with graduate degrees then Cincinnati. So to extrapolate on your theory, since Jacksonville has far more highly educated people, we should be working on phase 7, of regional light-rail, streetcar, BRT, aerial cable, commuter rail and corridor train services... It's not education that we lack, it's BOLD NEW LEADERSHIP!


I've lived in Portland, and Sandy, and Boring, Oregon. Jacksonville might have it's rednecks, and our rednecks might have a largely unearned reputation for a lack of formal schooling, I have never seen a bigger collection of toothless, tobacco chewing, musclebound, dope smoking, axe swinging, beer swilling, dumb asses in my entire life then one can find in Portland. But this is not to knock Portland or Jacksonville, Portland through maverick leadership, bold planning and state of the art execution has overcome a bad hand, and dealt itself a royal flush. Portland sparkles, and I believe that Jacksonville can shine.

Ock, great stats as always. I don't agree on the education argument. I know Oregon leans to the left on many of its issues, in fact it is a mostly democratic state with 40% of the registered voters showing a democratic card. 57% percent of the state's population is in Portland, and was shown to be the 4th most liberal state in the country.

Compare this to Jacksonville. Is our great city in the same league as the progressives in terms of risk taking for a transportation solution? We have the history of tracks here, but the enthusiasm is not here, we are far too conservative to get to the need of a new rail system. This is an area that has not supported a democratic presidential candidate, except Jimmy Carter in 76, since 1952. This was further demonstrated with Delaney becoming the FIRST republican mayor in the area since 1887.

I like the ideas, would love to see rail cars somewhere in Jax, but I think we are in the minority, the extreme minority.

We don't need to be a majority.  All we need to do is let the mobility fee moratorium sunset and let it start generating funds for starter projects in the urban core.

The list is back down to 3....unfortunately, Flowers from Charlotte didn't make the cut

http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-09-20/story/jta-selects-finalists-executive-director-job

Crap. Out of these three, I'd rank them as 1. Ford, 2. Bland and 3. Martin. That means the Atkins guy (Martin) will win.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2012, 11:24:25 AM
Crap. Out of these three, I'd rank them as 1. Ford, 2. Bland and 3. Martin. That means the Atkins guy (Martin) will win.

Make it two except Ford should win if MARTA screws up.

-Josh

More info about Bland:

QuotePort Authority board Chairman John A. Brooks is doubtful CEO Steve Bland would leave for a similar job in Atlanta, where he is one of two finalists to run the country's ninth-largest public transit system.

But despite the fact that people close to Mr. Bland note that he did not seek out the Atlanta position -- or a top transit post in Jacksonville, Fla., for which he is also a candidate -- the truth is that Mr. Bland hasn't taken himself out of the running, either.

"We thought all the candidates certainly expressed interest in the position otherwise they wouldn't have been here," Charles N. Pursley Jr., general counsel for the Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transit Authority, said Monday.
Mr. Pursley said all seven short-list candidates, including Mr. Bland, had traveled to Atlanta for an interview before the list was pared to two, who will be announced Wednesday.

He said MARTA hopes to make a decision by its Oct. 9 board meeting or sooner.

full article: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/news/transportation/port-authority-chief-still-in-running-for-atlanta-post-653838/

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2012, 08:27:36 PM
TUFSU1, I believe your making excuses for JTA. The reason that Portland is a world model isn't because they have a highly educated populace, and we don't. We lead Portland in High School Grads, people with 'some college' and those with an associate degree. Several cities including Portland lead us in bachelors or graduate degrees but counting all students age 25 or under, Portland has exactly 11,627 more then Jacksonville. That's roughly the population of Palatka, hardly a stellar difference.

Fact is, Portland has imported transit talent, it has cultivated transit talent, and Portland could actually be called "The Bold New City Of The Northwest." Here's the actual data:

(http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/49576/2664575740104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

So what about other cities that have embraced rail, either old, new, or planned? Well there is Memphis, which already has a growing streetcar system using actual historic cars as a vital piece of the regional transit agency. Based on your argument, Memphis should be light-years ahead of Jacksonville in the education field, but we blow them away in EVERY category.  That Memphis streetcar track is built to light-rail standards and will make a great downtown loop for fast light-rail trains into the burb's at some future date. This is called planning ahead, and it apparently didn't take rocket scientists to work it out.

(http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/52106/2805716250104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

What about a city with the oldest continuously operated streetcar system in the United States? A system largely abandoned then given a last hour stay of execution only to be wiped out in 'an act of God.' Sorry, no cigar. New Orleans also gets trashed by Jacksonville's education numbers. Though they, like several other cities, lead us in percentages of grad students, we have many more actual people with advanced degrees.

(http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/51316/2628513740104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

Norfolk should be an interesting case study, here is a southern/mid-Atlantic city that has just opened an amazing starter line that now has disbelievers in Virginia Beach begging for a link. So is Norfolk's population smarter? Not even close to Jacksonville's actual numbers, Norfolk does have a less then 1% lead in graduate degrees completed, but the actual numbers show Jacksonville with a lead of 28,046 people that actually have completed a grad degree. Yet even with our own highly educated populace, we are continuously screwed by JTA, FDOT, COJ... etc...

(http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/51420/2275259900104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

Lastly, how about a city that has fought the good fight and come out a winner in the race to get new streetcar systems up and running? Cincinnati, Ohio, The Midwest, The Industrial Heartland...etc. Surely Cincinnati's population is highly educated beyond Jacksonville's wildest dreams? One might be forgiven for thinking so, after all we have more high school dropouts then Cincinnati, or Norfolk, or New Orleans, or Memphis, or Portland. But we also have about 100,398 more high school graduates then Cincinnati, 82,704 more people with some college then Cincinnati, 33,071 more people with associates degrees then Cincinnati, 50,790 more people with bachelors degrees then Cincinnati, 16,537 more people with graduate degrees then Cincinnati. So to extrapolate on your theory, since Jacksonville has far more highly educated people, we should be working on phase 7, of regional light-rail, streetcar, BRT, aerial cable, commuter rail and corridor train services... It's not education that we lack, it's BOLD NEW LEADERSHIP!

(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/51374/2507163150104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

I've lived in Portland, and Sandy, and Boring, Oregon. Jacksonville might have it's rednecks, and our rednecks might have a largely unearned reputation for a lack of formal schooling, I have never seen a bigger collection of toothless, tobacco chewing, musclebound, dope smoking, axe swinging, beer swilling, dumb asses in my entire life then one can find in Portland. But this is not to knock Portland or Jacksonville, Portland through maverick leadership, bold planning and state of the art execution has overcome a bad hand, and dealt itself a royal flush. Portland sparkles, and I believe that Jacksonville can shine.

Wow Ock, that's a lot of info! A great amount of research, did it take long? Why don't you run for some kind of city office? Or at least work as an adviser for the city, that is if anyone's wise enough to hire you and take you seriously.

$20 says the Florida guy will win, anyone wanna bet me? If he wins, JTA will not change, and that's how they want it to stay. I might as well make some money from my misfortune.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2012, 08:27:36 PM
TUFSU1, I believe your making excuses for JTA. The reason that Portland is a world model isn't because they have a highly educated populace, and we don't. We lead Portland in High School Grads, people with 'some college' and those with an associate degree. Several cities including Portland lead us in bachelors or graduate degrees but counting all students age 25 or under, Portland has exactly 11,627 more then Jacksonville. That's roughly the population of Palatka, hardly a stellar difference.

Fact is, Portland has imported transit talent, it has cultivated transit talent, and Portland could actually be called "The Bold New City Of The Northwest." Here's the actual data:

(http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/49576/2664575740104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

So what about other cities that have embraced rail, either old, new, or planned? Well there is Memphis, which already has a growing streetcar system using actual historic cars as a vital piece of the regional transit agency. Based on your argument, Memphis should be light-years ahead of Jacksonville in the education field, but we blow them away in EVERY category.  That Memphis streetcar track is built to light-rail standards and will make a great downtown loop for fast light-rail trains into the burb's at some future date. This is called planning ahead, and it apparently didn't take rocket scientists to work it out.

(http://inlinethumb11.webshots.com/52106/2805716250104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

What about a city with the oldest continuously operated streetcar system in the United States? A system largely abandoned then given a last hour stay of execution only to be wiped out in 'an act of God.' Sorry, no cigar. New Orleans also gets trashed by Jacksonville's education numbers. Though they, like several other cities, lead us in percentages of grad students, we have many more actual people with advanced degrees.

(http://inlinethumb53.webshots.com/51316/2628513740104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

Norfolk should be an interesting case study, here is a southern/mid-Atlantic city that has just opened an amazing starter line that now has disbelievers in Virginia Beach begging for a link. So is Norfolk's population smarter? Not even close to Jacksonville's actual numbers, Norfolk does have a less then 1% lead in graduate degrees completed, but the actual numbers show Jacksonville with a lead of 28,046 people that actually have completed a grad degree. Yet even with our own highly educated populace, we are continuously screwed by JTA, FDOT, COJ... etc...

(http://inlinethumb29.webshots.com/51420/2275259900104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

Lastly, how about a city that has fought the good fight and come out a winner in the race to get new streetcar systems up and running? Cincinnati, Ohio, The Midwest, The Industrial Heartland...etc. Surely Cincinnati's population is highly educated beyond Jacksonville's wildest dreams? One might be forgiven for thinking so, after all we have more high school dropouts then Cincinnati, or Norfolk, or New Orleans, or Memphis, or Portland. But we also have about 100,398 more high school graduates then Cincinnati, 82,704 more people with some college then Cincinnati, 33,071 more people with associates degrees then Cincinnati, 50,790 more people with bachelors degrees then Cincinnati, 16,537 more people with graduate degrees then Cincinnati. So to extrapolate on your theory, since Jacksonville has far more highly educated people, we should be working on phase 7, of regional light-rail, streetcar, BRT, aerial cable, commuter rail and corridor train services... It's not education that we lack, it's BOLD NEW LEADERSHIP!

(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/51374/2507163150104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)

I've lived in Portland, and Sandy, and Boring, Oregon. Jacksonville might have it's rednecks, and our rednecks might have a largely unearned reputation for a lack of formal schooling, I have never seen a bigger collection of toothless, tobacco chewing, musclebound, dope smoking, axe swinging, beer swilling, dumb asses in my entire life then one can find in Portland. But this is not to knock Portland or Jacksonville, Portland through maverick leadership, bold planning and state of the art execution has overcome a bad hand, and dealt itself a royal flush. Portland sparkles, and I believe that Jacksonville can shine.

Not to continue pushing this even further away from topic, but those figures seem to be tied to the city population. Due to consolidation Jacksonville's figures include many suburban areas that aren't included for other cities. Conceivably, the suburban populace has higher levels of educational attainment than the core cities. Overall, I think it's pretty clear that the Jacksonville area, like all of Florida's largest metros, has a pretty unenviable level of educational attainment.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 19, 2012, 12:37:14 PM

Unfair? Hardly, more like inept leadership at JTA being a reason why UNF started their own transit service. RTS (Gainesville) operates FREQUENTLY all over the UF campus... where is JTA? 16,500 students and faculty are not enough to get JTA to the table? Over at FSCJ,  7,535 full time students and 18,151 part time at various campuses, get the typical 30-45 minute headway JTA 'accommodation,' which is quite shy of a real 'service.' 751 more at Edward Waters College, 3,715 over at JU and toss in 1,753 more at the FCSL, all get the, "Well the bus comes around every hour or so, so the students definitely have 'convenient transit, even if they have to stand in the rain and wait," excuse. As long as our 'Transportation Authority' is missing in action, it's a fair comparison.

Has ANYONE at JTA ever thought what a community shuttle running on 15 minute headways during school day and evening hours, between the schools (thus connecting all school facilities with each other), and research facilities such as the 3.5 million volumes at the downtown library? Or perhaps directly linking the schools with the Beaches, Highlands, Mandarin, Pablo Creek, Regency Square, South Mandarin, Southeast, Wesconnett, West Regional, Argyle, Northwest, Brentwood, Myrtle Avenue, Maxville, Murray Hill, Eastside, San Marco, University Park, Westbrook or maybe Willowbranch libraries? Recreation facilities? Military Bases (which often have excellent training facilities and thousands of college age - education paid - students or prospective students).

Likewise has JTA ever thought about a career focused shuttle? How about linking all of our major medical facilities with a dedicated frequent service? Have they ever sat down with the commander of Kings Bay, Marine Corps Blount Island Command, Mayport, JIA Air National Guard, NAS JAX and the various armory's? Hell they even managed to miss the massive Baptist Hospital and the oldest insurance building on the south bank with the Skyway, and there is no easy way to walk from the San Marco Station. This is not to mention Shand's, San Marco, Brooklyn and the Stadium District somehow fell off the Skyway's goals.

No excuses, JTA is a rogue agency that needs to focus 100% on mass transit or highways, but not both. It's fleet and 'accommodations' have fallen sharply behind many regional towns and cities, and TRUE SERVICE is nearly nonexistent.

END OF RANT...

Not to defend JTA, but UNF's "transit service" is just a shuttle system connecting people between the outlying areas and parking lots and the core campus. I wouldn't expect JTA to cover that. JTA does run buses to UNF and some students take them.

However, there is now a shuttle running between campus and the St. Johns Town Center mall, and that's probably something that JTA ought to cover. And at least one of the nearby apartment complexes that caters mostly to students runs its own shuttle to campus, and that shouldn't be necessary. However, we're currently in talks with JTA about offering a discount rate for our students, so hopefully things will improve.

Why is every arterial on the Southside at gridlock today? Damn, a fixed transit alternative would be great.

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2012, 06:38:46 PM
Why is every arterial on the Southside at gridlock today? Damn, a fixed transit alternative would be great.

+1000

Quote from: thelakelander on September 20, 2012, 06:38:46 PM
Why is every arterial on the Southside at gridlock today? Damn, a fixed transit alternative would be great.

must be the accident on I-95 near JTB

Sucks to not have a grid. I was on I-95 when that accident happened, so I avoided I-95 on the trip back.  However, all of my Southside goat's paths were gridlocked.  Those included Beach, Bowden, Touchton, Gate, Southside and Belford.  It ended up taking me an hour to get from University & I-95 to Target on Southside Blvd.

three accidents on I-95 and the entire southside is stuck in gridlock. we need alternatives!

Here is an article from Charlotte on Flowers. Of course we know she isn't coming to JTA now.  Interesting comments.

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/09/19/3539890/cats-flowers-on-short-list-for.html

I said to myself on 3 different occasions "F Jacksonville", while driving home yesterday. I heard about the accident at JTB and 95, so jumped on 9A (I'm coming from St. Augustine) and figured I'd pick my wife up at work the Town Center for dinner and let traffic clear up. We ate for about an hour and got on JTB to drive DT. JTB was a disaster, so I hopped on Belfort to cut through to the Hart Bridge and there was still traffic there. Just a disaster. Commuter rail please....

But on the UNF bus thing. You can't compare UNF to UF/FSU which are both urban campuses and where about 80+% of the students live within a couple miles of campus. UNF's student population is far less and much more spread out. The cost of operating a UNF system across the Southside/Beaches/DT and so on, would be FAR greater than the revenue generated...and I don't think UNF has the kind of cash to subsidize it. I'd rather JTA focus on transportation that will either stimulate growth and/or not be a financial drain.

Quote from: CityLife on September 21, 2012, 08:23:59 AM
But on the UNF bus thing. You can't compare UNF to UF/FSU which are both urban campuses and where about 80+% of the students live within a couple miles of campus. UNF's student population is far less and much more spread out. The cost of operating a UNF system across the Southside/Beaches/DT and so on, would be FAR greater than the revenue generated...and I don't think UNF has the kind of cash to subsidize it. I'd rather JTA focus on transportation that will either stimulate growth and/or not be a financial drain.

The biggest difference in the schools' logistics is that UF and FSU are fairly centrally located in small college towns where their students and staff make up a huge portion of the population (especially UF). Those schools heavily drove the growth around them in what were formerly pretty rural settings. In contrast, UNF was an isolated commuter-dependent campus on the outskirts of a much larger city, and the growth around it has been suburban.

Currently, the UNF "Osprey Connector" shuttle system is just that - it just shuttles people around the campus, with one route that goes to the mall. It's totally independent of the JTA Southside system, which does exist and runs to UNF (it's just not very good). Additionally, as it's free to ride, it makes exactly no revenue. As I said, we're currently talking to JTA about discounted fares for UNF students. However, I don't see it making a huge difference until JTA's service really improves.

In the future the UNF shuttle system will necessarily be expanded. What I'd hope for that it continues serving the campus and perhaps some other close-by areas, and that the public transit options continue to improve as we develop. The fear, however, is that we keep to the area but JTA doesn't step up. Alternately, down the road, we may see something like a smaller version of the FSU "Seminole Express", which goes to a wider area and serves to compliment Tallahassee's (crappy) bus system. It's logistically unlikely we'll ever see something like the UF system, which is entirely integrated into Gainesville's (awesome) bus system.

16,500 students and faculty at UNF,  7,535  FSCJ full time and 18,151 part time, 751 more at Edward Waters College, 3,715 over at JU and toss in 1,753 more at the FCSL.

THE SCHOOLS PART:
What I'm talking about is a small addition to the cost of attending the area schools, a fee that would include a JTA UNLIMITED bus pass good for the school year.

THE JTA PART:
Survey the schools, see where the most valuable services would originate and where they would go. Study an inter-school/library connector system, one that would almost certainly include a link to the Skyway or downtown area. JTA has community shuttles, so one must consider why they can't make the students a prime part of their system. The old line that 'Jacksonville is just to spread out,' or that 'UNF, JU, EWC etc. are likewise just too suburban,' is a copout. UNF is surrounded by student apartments, so is JU, there is simply no excuse that service can't be or isn't provided.

Here is a link to the map of Seminole Express. It is about 2 miles north to south in the map (probably the size of UNF's entire campus). I'd guess that there are about 40-60 thousand people (mostly students of FSU, TCC, and FAMU) who live in that area. There isn't that type of population density anywhere in Jacksonville, let alone near suburban UNF.

http://parking.fsu.edu/Seminole%20Express/All%20Routes.html

Additionally, FSU is the most pedestrian/bike friendly campus in the state university system. The school has closed down a lot of internal roads, infilled surface lots, and built wide bike/ped paths. This has encouraged more walking, biking, and use of the bus system. You simply can't compare UNF to urban schools like UF and FSU. Maybe look at what UCF and USF do. They have far more in common with UNF....

I'm not saying JTA can't somehow find a way to make it work, just that it is MUCH harder to make it work here, versus Tallahassee and Gainesville. Look to Orlando and Tampa to see how they service their suburban, largely commuter campuses.

UF/FSU have made it a priority to encourage bike/ped/transit as the means for students getting to class.  It is nearly impossible to park on campus.  When I went to UF I rode the bus simply because there was no easy way to park on campus.  UNF is not at that point yet so you're going to have a hard time convincing students to ditch their cars.  As was mentioned earlier, most of the students at UF/FSU that don't live on campus live within a very close radius to it- the same cannot be said for UNF.  It is still trying to shake the commuter school reputation.

^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

Quote from: Tacachale on September 21, 2012, 02:23:19 PM
^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

I don't get it. You say there's clearly a demand for transit options at UNF, but then say you don't see UNF students in the vicinity of campus warming to the JTA bus. And really, how many students live off campus, but within about 2-5 miles?

I think some thought should be given to a fixed trolley circulation route for UNF, SJTC, Deerwood and Tinseltown. This area has shopping,businesses, housing. A correctly placed parking garage would encourage off site parking for SJTC. The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

Quote from: CityLife on September 21, 2012, 02:49:12 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on September 21, 2012, 02:23:19 PM
^That's very true. But at UNF there's clearly a demand for transit options that's not being met by JTA. I can tell you we wouldn't be running a campus shuttle if people didn't use it, nor would the apartment complexes pay for their own shuttles as an amenity for residents. And some UNF students do take the bus, walk and bike to campus, despite the whole area being pretty inhospitable for that.

At some stage transit will be expanded at and around UNF. Ideally, JTA steps up and offers improved service, potentially combined with investment from UNF. However, we may just end up extending the campus system to other areas near campus (FSU is hardly unique in doing this, UCF does it as well).

All this said, I don't see UNF students even in the immediate vicinity of campus really warming to the JTA bus (or paying a fee for the privilege) until the service was really improved and the mentality accordingly shifts.

I don't get it. You say there's clearly a demand for transit options at UNF, but then say you don't see UNF students in the vicinity of campus warming to the JTA bus. And really, how many students live off campus, but within about 2-5 miles?

I said there's demand for transit, not necessarily demand for JTA's offerings as they are now. I think many more students would use transit if there was better, more consistent service.

I don't know how many UNF students live within 5 miles of campus, but I suspect it's a good number of the total student body. There are 4,000 students living on campus this year. Additionally, off Kernan between Beach and JTB there are three good sized apartment complexes that cater largely to students. They have around 1500 units between them, and probably a good 1000 of the residents are students, not to mention students who live in the housing developments there. Even without decent (JTA) bus service, many of those students are already using transit of a sort. One of the complexes is accessible to the Osprey Connector (which it uses as a big selling point), while another pays for its own shuttle to campus.

And this is just that one stretch of Kernan. Many of the apartments and houses on Gate, Beach, Hodges, and possibly even Baymeadows are within 2-5 miles of campus. Of course it's nothing like UF or FSU, but I believe there are a lot more students who would use public transit if it were a real option, and others would chose to live closer to campus as well.

Quote from: jaxjags on September 21, 2012, 03:06:09 PM
I think some thought should be given to a fixed trolley circulation route for UNF, SJTC, Deerwood and Tinseltown. This area has shopping,businesses, housing. A correctly placed parking garage would encourage off site parking for SJTC. The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

I assume you mean fixed rail? It would fail if it only served that area. The Southside is pretty sprawled. Any rail serving that area would need to be linked with the urban core, similar to Charlotte's and Houston's starter LRT lines to be successful. Given the landscape, you'd be looking at something in the price range of $300-$400 million.

I was thinking more to a electric street car type system. Similar to what stephendare describes for a Avondale/Riverside fixed trolley system circulation system. Less expensive and can cover a larger area. I would envision this connecting with DT using a true light rail system in the future when demand is there.

Thinking about UNF and transit, you would think that at the very least the BRT would go to the campus (within walking distance of most major destinations.)  I don't believe the current  BRT design gets anywhere near that close.  The problem though, is that UNF is pretty spread out and even if it did go to the center of campus, most people would find it too far to walk.

Given that, my preference is for JTA to focus its investments in areas of higher density that will lead to more pedestrian activity.  Like Riverside, Downtown, San Marco and Springfield/northside.

It's not practical to upgrade a streetcar line or BRT to LRT.  For the amount of money you'd be spending, you're better off (much cheaper) constructing LRT from the beginning if LRT is your long term goal.  The best places for small fixed rail systems in Jacksonville would be either the urban core or the beaches.  In those locations, on a per mile basis, you can serve a greater population with a much smaller capital investment.

On the flip end, the "edge city" of Tinseltown/SJCT, Deerwoood, etc. is so sprawled out, you'd never be able to get the ROI needed to make the capital investment in fixed transit worth it, unless its part of a more comprehensive network.  If looking for short term improvement, I know the mode would not be popular here, but to me that's an area where BRT-lite really makes sense.

thelakelander, your are right. It is not practical for JTA to invest millions into one system with the intention of shuttering it once it can build something better. What you are forgetting is that government bureaucracy has a hard time looking at statics from a 3 dimensional perceptive. Take for instance the Miami Police Department. The department is running a surplus for the year, which should be a good thing. The problem is that if the department does not spend that money, when their budget is reassed for the following year it will lose out on further funding. It in the interest of the department to spend the rest of the money. In this case it bought two foreign luxury cars to partrol the highways. My point being, things don't always make sense in government spending.

Quote from: jaxjags on September 21, 2012, 03:06:09 PM
The problem is JTA focuses on roads, downtown and large projects, ie commuter rail.

JTA focuses on commuter rail? Man what planet have you been on?

Quote from: Mathew1056 on September 21, 2012, 06:16:33 PM
thelakelander, your are right. It is not practical for JTA to invest millions into one system with the intention of shuttering it once it can build something better. What you are forgetting is that government bureaucracy has a hard time looking at statics from a 3 dimensional perceptive. Take for instance the Miami Police Department. The department is running a surplus for the year, which should be a good thing. The problem is that if the department does not spend that money, when their budget is reassed for the following year it will lose out on further funding. It in the interest of the department to spend the rest of the money. In this case it bought two foreign luxury cars to partrol the highways. My point being, things don't always make sense in government spending.

I understand that scenario but I don't comprehend how it would result in a transit agency trying to grow into LRT by building a streetcar first.  Looking at it from a very very general perspective, they are virtually the same thing with some major operational differences.  So if you're going to invest in one, you might as well invest in the one you really want and one that fits your desired landscape.

With that said, I'm aware that the most recent Memphis streetcar corridor (Madison Avenue) is designed to LRT standards.  However, from my understanding (I'm sure Ock knows more about this than me) that's not a case of trying to grow into a system.  That's a case of already having a streetcar system with long term plans to add a LRT line between the airport and downtown.  Thus, whenever they get to the airport, that new Madison Avenue line will tie it in with downtown.  In the meantime, they're running their existing streetcars on it.

I think we get way too caught up in modern system titles and definitions. Streetcar, interurban and even conventional  railroads throughout history, frequently operated interchangeably on each others trackage.

There is really nothing 'under the hood' of a streetcar that differs significantly from light rail or even high speed electric rail such as the trains in France or Japan. In modern times, there is a weight and speed difference but again, that is more a result of design then it is need. streetcars are the lightest, interurban/light-rail is next, and diesel DMU or locomotive hauled trains are the heaviest.

Provided that the electric current was the same, it would be possible to operate a massive Jewett built wooden interurban, on the same track as a modern streetcar.

That being said, there are many museums that have constructed several miles of electric railroad that operate a host of different equipment types on the same track. Volunteer built track. There are also a few surviving interurban routes that roll out a variety of equipment. These operations usually are built with wooden 'relay' railroad ties, 80-110 pound rail and jointed track. Power is delivered via a simple trolley wire, suspended from recycled telephone poles and several have been in operation since the end of the classic era of electric railroads.

My question is; 'WHY NOT?' Why not take a look at what works and what doesn't and see if we could rip a page from the historical railroad museum play book? As the project developed, and with mobility funds, it would give us the liberty to decide if each component could be upgraded starting with a bare, museum like, basic design. My guess is we could shatter some sort of records for bringing in the whole project for WAY less then other cities have. As Lake has pointed out, it's not even that rail or even BRT is all that expensive, it's the junk streetscapes and furnishings that gets rolled into the projects that run them right off a cliff. When JTA tried to sell the city on their wild BRT designs, they compared it to light-rail... IN SUBWAYS!  Like really? A subway in Jacksonville? Yet the mainstream local media didn't have a clue and parroted the claim that 'BRT is far cheaper then rail...'

Memphis, Fort Collins, Fort Smith, and Kenosha have all gotten close to these concepts, perhaps it's up to us to make them fly.

Here is a video of the system in San Diego.  They run both LRT and currently Streetcar on the same track.  You'll see them passing each other around the 1:00 minute mark on the video.  My point in showing this is to illustrate you don't "grow yourself" into LRT by building streetcar first.  They are pretty much the same type of technology.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 18, 2012, 05:00:44 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on September 18, 2012, 04:46:25 PM
True,  but as roads and bridges are likely to be taken away it will leave JTA as a transit agency represented by the numbers I posted. Sad when one considers Orlando and St. Petersburg are bigger, and Gainesville carry's as many passengers even though we have two universities and several colleges along our own routes.

Gainesville and Tallahassee are not fair comparisons....50,000 students at UF and 43,000 at FSU compared with less than 25,000 combined at UNF and JU

Plus, both cities transit systems get millions from their universities each year in return for making the system "fare-free" for students and some staff...plus you have a captive market of students whose parking can be severly restricted.

Now UNF has started a transit service on campus...and with their new policy that all freshmen live on campus, parking can be minimized and transit ridership could go up....but of course it isn't operated by JTA so it doesn't count in their figures.

Polk State College and Southeastern University have both entered agreements with their local transit agency in Lakeland to allow their students free rides.

Quotetudents, faculty and staff at the faith-based, private college will be able to catch the bus as well, and for free. Carroll said the arrangement will benefit the Citrus Connection bus service and the college.

Polk State College entered into a similar plan with the bus service in April, and that's been touted as a success. Polk State spokesman David Steele said in the first full month of the partnership in May, more than 3,600 people with Polk State IDs used public transportation. The expectation was for about 2,400.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120821/NEWS/120829912&tc=ix

For what its worth, Southeastern also just announced plans to construct a stadium on their Lakeland campus and start their own NAIA Division I football team by 2014:

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/se2.jpg)

(http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa236/heartofflorida/se1.jpg)

http://www.theledger.com/article/20120924/NEWS/120929623?p=all&tc=pgall

Southeastern is slightly smaller than JU.  Polk State College has around 10,000 undergraduates.

Steve Bland, a finalist for both the JTA and MARTA jobs, did not win the MARTA position.  Instead, they selected San Antonio's Keith Parker, who was over transit agencies in Charlotte and Vancouver, before heading to San Antonio. 

QuoteThe next CEO of MARTA will be a seasoned public administrator who now serves as chief of San Antonio’s transit system.

Keith Parker comes with high praise from members of the board that oversees the Texas system named Via Metropolitan Transit. Parker was chosen by a unanimous vote over Stephen Bland, who leads the transit system in Pittsburgh.

http://saportareport.com/blog/2012/10/martas-next-ceo-now-heads-san-antonios-transit-system-earned-high-praise-there/