Metro Jacksonville

This just in from the 'mass transit wire'.

QuoteTransportation Secretary Ray LaHood Wednesday endorsed the idea of a streetcar for Boise, Idaho, while touring Boise-based MotivePower's locomotive manufacturing facility with local officials.

MotivePower,  a division of Wilmerding, Pa.-based Wabtec Corp., manufactures freight and passenger locomotives, while parent Wabtec provides parts and services for various passenger rail needs, including light rail transit (LRT).

"This morning, I had a chance to spend more than an hour with the mayor and his team," said LaHood. "I have committed to the mayor a team from [DOT] to work together with the mayor on his mission. The idea of a streetcar system to connect the university community with the downtown community is a very strong vision."

Local media note Boise received a $375,000 DOT grant in 2011 for a $500,000 alternatives analysis assessing a streetcar route. The study is scheduled to be completed before 2014.

LaHood and Boise Mayor Dave Bieter traced the proposed streetcar route by car during LaHood's visit, the mayor said.

Apparently Boise is actually a very livable city that attracts young professionals, college grads and those wanting a healthy, urban lifestyle convenient to outdoor activities.  Fast growing city with a thriving downtown and lots of investor activity.

We're talking about Boise here.  It may be the next Denver a few decades from now.

Yeah, one of my cousins from Tampa just graduated from Boise State this past year.  I asked him about the area's vibe a few weeks back.  He said it actually wasn't as bad as people generally believe Idaho to be.  Said it was basically a city like any place else.  Places like this are pretty much why I turn a deaf ear to local naysayers when talking about Jax's potential.

How timely.  This photothread is definitely enough to make many cities gasp with jealousy.  Boise looks like a very progressive city with a very high quality of life.  Jacksonville city councilmen should look at these photos and learn more than they have in their entire lives in the 3 minutes it would take to fly through these photos.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=201107

Apocalyptic doom and gloom for this city.....

No doom.  Just a lot of opportunity for Jax to cash in.

Seriously though, I know that there are alot of smart people here; I don't hardly ever hear anyone talking about adding residential downtown, it's always things like Starbucks, streetcar, etc. We tried to add some Starbucks downtown, and they flopped. I rather not have an IMAX in DT the rest of this decade, then to put one in there right now, and it closes in two years. To tell you the truth, I'm not convinced that streetcar will instantly be the cure all for downtown Jax, but if we must have it, I rather wait ten to fifteen years to build up downtown infrastructure before even considering something like that. We don't hardly have anyone living there, but yet everyone wants to make DT a mini Manhattan overnight. That's counting the chicken before the egg hatch. We have enough 'spur of the moment' urban infrastructure that didn't go according to plan *cough cough ASE* Just my two.

In reality, we have more residents living in downtown now than we did in 1950.  Downtown hasn't been heavily residential in 100 years.  I have no idea of how we settled on the "we need 10,000 residents in the Northbank" thing to achieve vibrancy.  That line of thinking isn't based in reality, given the landscape and history of the district we're dealing with.

Count me in the small camp of people who believe that we already have thousands of "downtown" residents.  They just happen to reside in surrounding neighborhoods like Riverside, Springfield, San Marco, Durkeeville.  I've become a huge fan of fixed rail because I've personally seen how it can immediately extend the residential population base of a Central Business District by tying it with surrounding neighborhoods.  The resulting benefit is they all begin to grow together and a downtown benefits naturally by becoming the epicenter of that transit spine of connectivity.  This story has played out in Tampa, Charlotte, Memphis, Salt Lake City, San Diego, etc.  I really don't understand why we don't think it won't play out similarly here if we work with our assets.

So what I'm saying is a streetcar can give you a stronger urban population to work with immediately and extremely cheaper and less time consuming than subsidizing 10,000 new units of residential construction in the Northbank.  A $30 million streetcar project (roughly $10 million/mile to construct) will help create a situation that makes residential infill in downtown market rate.  The fact that we already have the skyway, gives us something to tie it into, thus extending the footprint of urban connectivity to the Southbank and San Marco. Imo, that's a superior option than dropping an individual $20 million for a Adams Mark Hotel or $59 million for just the Carling and 11 East.

^^^Thanks for being cordial as always Lake (some people would rather bite my head off LOL) One question, what's an example of another city with a Jacksonville-esque downtown residential population that has a successful streetcar?

I'd say Tampa is one.  Some claim it's not because the streetcar doesn't collect enough at the fare box to turn a direct profit.  However, no streetcar, light rail or expressway in this country does.  However, Tampa's streetcar did help bring over $1 billion in new development to a distressed inner city community there, over a ten year period.  To me, that equals fiscal success, in terms of increasing property taxes, building permits, generating new businesses, residents, etc. in an area of town where the infrastructure already exists (schools, parks, fire, police, roads, utilities, etc.).

Other good examples of sprawling sunbelt communities with successful starter lines include Memphis, Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Norfolk and Houston.

^ let's also go with Charlotte....when they started their heritage streetcar route, they had very little residential in the downtown area....the streetcar showed there was an interest in riding the rails again and more urban living, so full-blown light rail followed....and then, sure enough, lots of mid-rise (relatively high density) residential.

Enough already about streetcars & light rail!!  :) Jesus, Mary, & Joseph!!!

We're finally getting an outer beltway (sort of). Cant you be happy with that?!  ;)

Seriously, if all that money being wasted to build the half-beltway was used for a rapid transit system, Jacksonville could have something to rival the MBTA (T) up in Boston. Hell, there's enough money there to build subways here.

^lol, it's crazy.  The first phase of the Outer Beltway costs several times more than the skyway everyone calls a boondoggle and will lose more money annually.  Round up the +$400 million that's being tossed between Blanding and I-10 and you could literally build out a comprehensive rapid transit system for the preconsolidated city.

So true Lake. If only our elected officials could be convinced.

Quote from: I-10east on August 24, 2012, 07:24:55 AM
^^^Thanks for being cordial as always Lake (some people would rather bite my head off LOL) One question, what's an example of another city with a Jacksonville-esque downtown residential population that has a successful streetcar?

Depending on your definition of downtown, New Orleans. The CBD has 2,060 residents, throw in the French Quarter and it's 5,948. Jacksonville Downtown (32202) has 6,374.

Boise is a great city.  Most of the growth seems to be coming from the Mormon church, but I've had fun when going out there on business.

Quote from: JFman00 on August 24, 2012, 09:02:36 AM

Quote from: I-10east on August 24, 2012, 07:24:55 AM
^^^Thanks for being cordial as always Lake (some people would rather bite my head off LOL) One question, what's an example of another city with a Jacksonville-esque downtown residential population that has a successful streetcar?

Depending on your definition of downtown, New Orleans. The CBD has 2,060 residents, throw in the French Quarter and it's 5,948. Jacksonville Downtown (32202) has 6,374.

New Orleans fairly recently suffered through an urban renewal plan called 'KATRINA.' Anyone who has visited since the storm is probably still in shock over the miles and miles of completely cleared land with nothing but foundations or slabs visible.

Little Rock came up with a plan in 2009 to create a fixed transit system and improve downtown living conditions through what could only be described as a 'remake'. Before the streetcar and streetscape the population of downtown was 3,000 mostly impoverished citizens. Today, the downtown sparkles with 11,002 persons living, working, playing in a dynamic and beautiful urban core.

The LDS population of Boise is 15%, however the Mormon church dominates the governments of Utah, Arizona, Idaho and eastern Oregon.

Katrina may have devastated the Lower 9th and New Orleans East, but the urban neighborhoods (CBD, Warehouse District, Uptown) are experiencing a renaissance even by pre-storm standards.

The Loyola Ave streetcar expansion (connecting the Amtrak/Greyhound station to the streetcar network) is well underway, and the likelihood of the South Market District project coming to fruition increases every day (tax breaks are making their way through the system)

(http://southmarketdistrict.com/images/sitemap_V11.jpg)

Boise is nice, definately not what you consider when you think 'Idaho'.  I enjoyed several trips there.  They actually have a really nice cluster of tech jobs there (due to the University).  My sister lived in Sandpoint for awhile (which is basically in b/w Boise and Seattle).

I'd never leave Jacksonville for Boise(or even seriously consider it), but Lake makes a good point..

Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2012, 05:28:05 PM
Places like this are pretty much why I turn a deaf ear to local naysayers when talking about Jax's potential.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 24, 2012, 08:22:00 AM
^lol, it's crazy.  The first phase of the Outer Beltway costs several times more than the skyway everyone calls a boondoggle and will lose more money annually.  Round up the +$400 million that's being tossed between Blanding and I-10 and you could literally build out a comprehensive rapid transit system for the preconsolidated city.

Hell, with all that money a transit system could be built out to Lake City, Fernandina Beach, St. Augustine, Palatka, & Starke.

^ not hardly.....commuter rail is going to cost in the range fo $10 million per mile...and even a simple BRT system would likely cost $1-2 million per mile

^^ I know. I was exaggerating. Still, I think the outer beltway is a waste of money. If Clay & St. Johns want it so badly, let them pay for it themselves.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 11:38:02 AM
^ not hardly.....commuter rail is going to cost in the range fo $10 million per mile...and even a simple BRT system would likely cost $1-2 million per mile

Well, Memphis DID build a streetcar system for $2-$5 million per mile, so if we didn't stack many millions on for streetscape and renewal of other infrastructure, we could keep it quite low. (But then Memphis didn't have to bridge the 'Nile' as JTA officers said about Long Branch Creek) Remember that many modern streetcars are using cantenary and pantographs or bow collectors, actually Memphis does too, and could have saved a bunch going with a simple span wire and trolley poles instead.

JTA'S BRT is more of a streetscape with a frequent bus then it is 'Light-Rail-Lite' Bus Rapid Transit. So again, we are talking about nicer bus stops, some signal priority, GPS, and paint on the road, that's a LONG WAY from LRL-BRT where we'd have dedicated exclusive busways and lanes, automated docking and much higher speeds. I support the Broad/Jefferson BRT route, all the way to 8Th Street, between 8Th and Norwood, I'd like to see exclusive lanes on Pearl. A short Busway, with railroad tracks in it or alongside, between 14Th and Main and 13Th and Moncrief, would do much to streamline our Northside transit.


Commuter Rail, should be able to be done for less then $10 million per mile, but then I'm talking remanufactured Budd RDC cars, and short concrete platforms with bus shelters on them...

Overnight I-10 East?  It's been more like 40-50 years we've been waiting for a downtown effort that made sense.

Quote from: I-10east on August 24, 2012, 06:55:53 AM
Seriously though, I know that there are alot of smart people here; I don't hardly ever hear anyone talking about adding residential downtown, it's always things like Starbucks, streetcar, etc. We tried to add some Starbucks downtown, and they flopped. I rather not have an IMAX in DT the rest of this decade, then to put one in there right now, and it closes in two years. To tell you the truth, I'm not convinced that streetcar will instantly be the cure all for downtown Jax, but if we must have it, I rather wait ten to fifteen years to build up downtown infrastructure before even considering something like that. We don't hardly have anyone living there, but yet everyone wants to make DT a mini Manhattan overnight. That's counting the chicken before the egg hatch. We have enough 'spur of the moment' urban infrastructure that didn't go according to plan *cough cough ASE* Just my two.

Forgive me but we have been saying things like this for the last 30 years. And if we continue to wait it WILL NEVER happen.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 12:18:13 PM
Well, Memphis DID build a streetcar system for $2-$5 million per mile

well that's far below the industry standard

you can always find ways to build things on the cheap, but sometimes there are just circumstances that happen once in a lifetime like Nashville's Music City Star commuter rail $4 million a mile project.

MATA Trolley/Memphis Streetcar:

Main Street Line - 5 track miles
Capital cost:  $34.9 million
Per track mile:  $7.0 million

Riverfront Line - 2 track miles
Capital cost:  $9.4 million
Per track mile:  $4.7 million (utilized existing rail corridor)

Madison Avenue Line â€" 5 track miles
Capital cost:  $60 million
Per track mile:  $12.0 million

Operating budget:  $3.9 million (FY 2005)

http://www.fortworthgov.com/uploadedFiles/Planning_and_Development/Miscellaneous_(template)/Peer%20City%20Handout%20for%20distribution.pdf

(http://www.matatransit.com/uploadedImages/002_Riding_Mata/Trolley_Service/trolley%20map.jpg)

^It wasn't as low per mile as Ock posted (Dallas' M-Line streetcar was that low) but it was still below industry averages (probably around $15-$20 million these days). The MATA Trolley's implementation cost were low because it was built as a "no frills" system.  It's amazing how the costs of these things drop once you remove the road streetscaping costs that are typically thrown in with these projects. 

Another big money saver was going with heritage cars over modern cars.  As Ock has stated many times through out the years, a modern car can cost more than three times the cost of a heritage car.  When you're purchasing multiple orders of rolling stock, that quickly adds up.

The original 2.5 mile line had a total cost, including the streetcars themselves, of $34,887,072, or a somewhat high $14 million per mile. However, almost half of this costâ€"$15,834,000â€"was for improvements to the pedestrian mall. The second 2.5 mile line, which completed the loop, cost just $9,428,860, or $3.8 million per mile. I believe I said $2-$5 million per mile, $3.8 is pretty much within that window.Why the big difference? As noted, the cost of the initial line included extensive repairs to the mall itself, plus construction of a new operations and maintenance facility and a great deal of utility relocation.

San Pedro, California, a 1.5 mile line that recreates the old Pacific Electric “Red Cars” for $4 million per mile, including three streetcars, one Vintage and two Heritage

QuoteThe authors of this paper both recall vividly an incident all too typical in overbuilding. When Cleveland’s fine old Shaker Rapid line was rebuilt, the cost was more than $100 million, and the result was slower trains running on less frequent schedules. When someone asked the local U.S. Representative about the outrage, the reply was, “Why not? It’s free money,” meaning Federal funds. Bah! Humbug! Where's our old friend Mr. Scrooge when the taxpayer needs him?

Currently, the Federal Transit Administration's process for giving new rail proposals a recommended or “not recommended” rating is based too heavily on ridership forecasts. We strongly suggest it should also include a base line “should cost” figure of not more than $20 million per mile for Light Rail and $10 million per mile for streetcars (a similar “should-cost” figure should be set for urban highway construction). Exceptions should be granted, but only when circumstances such as the need to tunnel through a mountain or other unavoidable local conditions clearly justify them.
SOURCE: APTA Heritage Streetcar Page

The FACT is, trolley museum's all around the world, regularly build, operate and maintain streetcar lines for a fraction of the 'normal' costs. I say we take a page from this and launch with a huge volunteer program. SEE: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring

Then there is this little jewel, found in a study just released (June 2012) for yet another city in our neighborhood which has solid plans for streetcars. Welcome to the pack MACON, we'll salute as you race past us.

I read your post wrong.  While the entire system did cost more than $5 million per mile, a lot of the extra cost did come from the first phase's Main Street mall streetscape and the last phase being double tracked and being designed for LRT.  The second phase, which utilized an existing railroad corridor was under $5 million as you mention above and I posted earlier.  So we're both on point about costs can drop pretty low if you exclude the bells and whistles commonly tacked onto these projects.

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2012, 01:52:37 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 01:32:08 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 12:18:13 PM
Well, Memphis DID build a streetcar system for $2-$5 million per mile

well that's far below the industry standard

the consultancy industry?  No doubt they would prefer a much higher price per mile! ;)

sorry dude, but the consuting industry and the construction industry are different....consulting costs (planning, environmental, and design) usually are about 25% of construction costs....and the number referenced was for construction only...and as noted, was after the first phase that cost much more, as it included the maintenance facility

Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 24, 2012, 11:43:03 AM
^^ I know. I was exaggerating. Still, I think the outer beltway is a waste of money. If Clay & St. Johns want it so badly, let them pay for it themselves.

there is an argument that the users (mainly Clay and St. Johns people) will be paying for the facility itself

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 06:19:00 PM

Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 24, 2012, 11:43:03 AM
^^ I know. I was exaggerating. Still, I think the outer beltway is a waste of money. If Clay & St. Johns want it so badly, let them pay for it themselves.

there is an argument that the users (mainly Clay and St. Johns people) will be paying for the facility itself

Clay is going to pay for it alright. As long as they plan to completely wrap LEE FIELD with an expressway, they'll pay by killing ANY chance of opening an inland port. As it is, theirs is one of the few places in the country where a major airport, river port and railroad all join. Once they kill the airport, the game is over.

Quote from: stephendare on August 24, 2012, 06:19:24 PM

only 25 % eh?

Then the size of the total project would be beneath the radar of the consultant industry.

I get it!

obviously you do not....if you'd like to put your own money forward, than you can skirt the planning and environmental studies...but state/federal guideluines require them...and either way, you'll still need to do design...and generally speaking, that's roughly 10-20% of construction costs.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 07:03:44 PM
Clay is going to pay for it alright. As long as they plan to completely wrap LEE FIELD with an expressway, they'll pay by killing ANY chance of opening an inland port. As it is, theirs is one of the few places in the country where a major airport, river port and railroad all join. Once they kill the airport, the game is over.

they seem happy enough with the access the future phases would provide to Reynold Industrial Park....and the assumption that a replacement Shands Bridge would be higher, allowing much bigger ships

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 07:03:44 PM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 06:19:00 PM

Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 24, 2012, 11:43:03 AM
^^ I know. I was exaggerating. Still, I think the outer beltway is a waste of money. If Clay & St. Johns want it so badly, let them pay for it themselves.

there is an argument that the users (mainly Clay and St. Johns people) will be paying for the facility itself

Clay is going to pay for it alright. As long as they plan to completely wrap LEE FIELD with an expressway, they'll pay by killing ANY chance of opening an inland port. As it is, theirs is one of the few places in the country where a major airport, river port and railroad all join. Once they kill the airport, the game is over.

That's Clay county for ya.

Years ago my grandfather told me Clay county is "where the bad people live". I think he was right.

Not necessarily.

Some projects require lots of study but design fairly simple.....others are exactly the opposite.

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 11:02:10 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 07:03:44 PM
Clay is going to pay for it alright. As long as they plan to completely wrap LEE FIELD with an expressway, they'll pay by killing ANY chance of opening an inland port. As it is, theirs is one of the few places in the country where a major airport, river port and railroad all join. Once they kill the airport, the game is over.

they seem happy enough with the access the future phases would provide to Reynold Industrial Park....and the assumption that a replacement Shands Bridge would be higher, allowing much bigger ships

So they get 'improved access'  to a decades old, struggling 'industrial park' with a taller bridge, which will allow bigger boats (ships are at sea TUFSU - Boats are on inland waterways...thus the term 'Ore Boats') to bypass Green Cove Springs and go to a truly progressive port in Palatka.  In exchange for the 'improved access' they'll trash the opportunity for a commercial airport - container port - rail connection al la Huntsville, Alabama. Yep, maybe not 'bad people' but the word 'STUPID' comes to mind.

Check out: http://www.hsvairport.org/iic/index.html
And Green Cove Springs has better bones to build on, being next to the river port.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 25, 2012, 11:59:11 AM
So they get 'improved access'  to a decades old, struggling 'industrial park' with a taller bridge, which will allow bigger boats (ships are at sea TUFSU - Boats are on inland waterways

oh I am aware....but Lake and fieldsfm can validate that some Clay boosters at the meeting said they can get "big ships" to their "port"...all they need is a higher bridge.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 25, 2012, 11:59:11 AM

Quote from: tufsu1 on August 24, 2012, 11:02:10 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 24, 2012, 07:03:44 PM
Clay is going to pay for it alright. As long as they plan to completely wrap LEE FIELD with an expressway, they'll pay by killing ANY chance of opening an inland port. As it is, theirs is one of the few places in the country where a major airport, river port and railroad all join. Once they kill the airport, the game is over.

they seem happy enough with the access the future phases would provide to Reynold Industrial Park....and the assumption that a replacement Shands Bridge would be higher, allowing much bigger ships

So they get 'improved access'  to a decades old, struggling 'industrial park' with a taller bridge, which will allow bigger boats (ships are at sea TUFSU - Boats are on inland waterways...thus the term 'Ore Boats') to bypass Green Cove Springs and go to a truly progressive port in Palatka.  In exchange for the 'improved access' they'll trash the opportunity for a commercial airport - container port - rail connection al la Huntsville, Alabama. Yep, maybe not 'bad people' but the word 'STUPID' comes to mind.

Check out: http://www.hsvairport.org/iic/index.html
And Green Cove Springs has better bones to build on, being next to the river port.

With the river, GCS could easily kick HSV's Alabama ass! Looks like the bad people of Clay dont want it, though. Typical short-sighted Clay fools. They're worse than Jacksonville.

Yes, I am glad to hear this