Metro Jacksonville

"The Electric 7" A Streetcar Proposal On A Shoestring

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Affordable-Streetcar/i-JdB3JrZ/0/M/streetcar-volunteers-llano-branch-tx-M.jpg)

Metro Jacksonville's Robert Mann takes time to explain his proposal for taking advantage of former city-owned rail lines to connect Gateway Town Center with Brentwood, Springfield, East Jacksonville, the Stadium District and Downtown Jacksonville, stimulating needed economic development through all of these communities in the process.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-aug-the-electric-7-a-streetcar-proposal-on-a-shoestring)

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Super idea.
All aboard!
Another 501-C
We've got the IBM'ers with the Smarter Cities Challenge in town for 3 weeks. Grant money just waiting to be passed around.
Volunteerism? I'd sign up.
better yet get the homeless involved. In a positive work opportunity program.
50' of track today the FTT (Food Trolley Truck)
50' of track tomorrow the FTT(Food Trolley Truck)
How big will the new Authority Zone be? At least to Gateway north along that corridor.
On another thread I asked you about CSX and any help if any from them.
What has been there response? Public, Private, Partnership
2011-364
What type of legislation are you looking for and need beside volunteers (free labor)?
Bring back the streetcar.
I'm All In.

Great article!  What needs to happen to make it happen?


(and an editing note - the text about people misusing the term catenary appears twice, and you never explain what one is, just what it isn't)

Love it!  We need to start mapping out the potential development opportunities along the way that can fund the system through TIFs.

What can I do to help?

Great idea this is the best plan I have seen this would work in Jacksonville . Look what Savannah Ga has done http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Street_Streetcar and Astoria Oregon http://www.railwaypreservation.com/vintagetrolley/astoria.htm if both of these towns can do this so can we!

I'm in awe of the whole idea--and particularly of all the research that went into this article!!!!

I would personally devote my design and website resources to this project, pro-bono! Count me in!

-Josh

Could we take it on down to Bay street? Could we package this as part of a public-private partnership with a real estate developer?

The old rail right of way runs to Maxwell House at East Adams Street.  To get to Bay/Shipyards, you'll have to create a new block long link down the center of Marsh Street.

Can we get an emlargement of the route diagram?
Great idea!

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2012, 09:20:47 AM
The old rail right of way runs to Maxwell House at East Adams Street.  To get to Bay/Shipyards, you'll have to create a new block long link down the center of Marsh Street.

In a pipe-dream sort of world, if this rail line went to the Maxwell House vicinity, would that not also be in the vicinity of a potential Skyway stop?  Y'know - the Skyway that's extended down Bay Street to the Sports District?

On that note, could we not do some sort of multi-modal station right there?  Skyway/streetcar stop?  Skyway extends to the Stadium/Randolph while the streetcar track heads north?

Like I said - pipe dream.  But a guy can imagine, can't he? :)

The bridge over Hogan's Creek would need to be rebuilt, I would imagine, as it rises above the level of the street, unless the entire level of the street were raised from the JSO past the Channel 12/25 studios. It can happen, for sure. Would eliminate the ability of eastbound traffic being able to turn onto Phillip Randolph, but it is a small price to pay for this service.

Why not incorporate the old Fire Station museum as part of the shed for the rail cars? They need to go somewhere, and Bay street is as good a place to start as any. I'd ride the rails to the Jags games!

Hey this was a tease. I wanna volunteer. I hate manual (only because my joints are in bad shape at the age of 30 LOL), however I would take some pain pills, put on my knee braces and pick up a shovel!! Im "all in"

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2012, 09:20:47 AM
The old rail right of way runs to Maxwell House at East Adams Street.  To get to Bay/Shipyards, you'll have to create a new block long link down the center of Marsh Street.

Who currently owns this ROW?

City of Jacksonville. COJ just built a curving multi use path on half it.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2012, 10:49:40 AM
City of Jacksonville. COJ just built a curving multi use path on half it.

S-Line?

Yes.

Is this the south end of the abandoned railway you are talking about? Right next to Robert F. Kennedy Park?

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=30.335954,-81.645734&aq=&sll=30.34499,-81.683107&sspn=0.836715,1.067047&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=30.335982,-81.645643&spn=0.003269,0.004168&t=m&z=18&iwloc=A (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=30.335954,-81.645734&aq=&sll=30.34499,-81.683107&sspn=0.836715,1.067047&vpsrc=6&ie=UTF8&ll=30.335982,-81.645643&spn=0.003269,0.004168&t=m&z=18&iwloc=A)

The right of way is the parallel rail corridor that runs down Palmetto on that map.  Here are a few interesting images along these abandoned rail corridors:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1050226736_k4YcE-M.jpg)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2087-p1030947.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2077-p1030939.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2086-p1030935.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2082-p1030937.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2075-p1030933.JPG)

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2074-p1030924.JPG)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-July-2012/i-CGStM9h/0/M/P1580218-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Development/Urban-Construction-July-2012/i-PJqhzFm/0/M/P1580220-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1993524709_4QKZWTL-M.jpg)

For the life of me, I can't figure out why this new multiuse path curves all over the right-of-way at intersections.  I guess this is a way to slow bike riders down instead of putting up signage?

Like many others that have commented, I would gladly volunteer on such a project. The only hurdles would be the land itself. I think if that was accomplished that someone would find the money for any rail to be laid and the car itself

The land is owned by the City of Jacksonville.  Where it's not, you can use the right-of-way of nearby local streets. In this case, there shouldn't be a cost for land.  I think the major hurdle would be getting across Norfolk Southern's active Springfield line and getting a city leader to publicly push the concept.  Significant grading changes and the modification of the bike trail currently being constructed would have to be addressed as well.

Let me know when it's shovel-ready.

Quote from: Doctor_K on August 17, 2012, 10:08:16 AM

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2012, 09:20:47 AM
The old rail right of way runs to Maxwell House at East Adams Street.  To get to Bay/Shipyards, you'll have to create a new block long link down the center of Marsh Street.

In a pipe-dream sort of world, if this rail line went to the Maxwell House vicinity, would that not also be in the vicinity of a potential Skyway stop?  Y'know - the Skyway that's extended down Bay Street to the Sports District?

On that note, could we not do some sort of multi-modal station right there?  Skyway/streetcar stop?  Skyway extends to the Stadium/Randolph while the streetcar track heads north?

Like I said - pipe dream.  But a guy can imagine, can't he? :)

Actually the best way to access the '7 Line' would be from Independence to Newnan to Beaver and hence east over Hogans creek and under the FREEway. A streetcar loop from Newnan to Beaver to AP Randolph to Duval and back to Newnan would access the northern part of the sports district and tie the whole thing in with the '7 Line'. With that in mind, the Skyway would be free to occupy Bay Street at some future date.

By taking the streetcar down Bay Street, we rob the Skyway of one of the few logical extensions that would make it even more viable then it has become since it went fare free.

Access from Bay to the '7 Line' is circuitous if not difficult.

Duplication of Skyway and Streetcar routes would make no more sense then the JTA scheme to build BRT under the Skyway and next to their 'professed interest' in commuter rail.

At the very least, the Skyway should connect with the streetcar at a multi-modal station at Bay and Newnan Street.

It's virtually a straight shot to get to Bay Street going south of the Mathews Bridge Expressway.  The ROW is still there.  However, you're right in that running something down to Bay would virtually eliminate the argument of trying to extend the skyway down there.  However, I'm still not on board that not extending the skyway is a bad thing, if a streecar can do the trick for a fraction of the cost. It's not duplicating if it isn't there.

Can you draw and post a map, so we can have a better idea of what you envisioning happening south of the Mathews Bridge Expressway? 

Brilliant , as always, Ock!    How do we get the City on board with this?

Likewise the streetcar line on Duval would continue on to LEE ST, where it would turn south, linking up with the Water Street Line in front of Jacksonville Terminal, both lines proceed to Riverside/Avondale/King Street, either via a new Lee Street Viaduct, or via West Bay to the Myrtle Avenue streetcar subway (which is still in place since since around 1912+/-). A future Skyway route to Shand's/VA/FSCJ south to Blue Cross and south to San Marco at Atlantic Avenue along with the new BRT/MAX line would give us a dense infrastructure investment downtown with transit options for a vast majority of our citizens.

Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2012, 11:39:01 AM
The land is owned by the City of Jacksonville.  Where it's not, you can use the right-of-way of nearby local streets. In this case, there shouldn't be a cost for land. I think the major hurdle would be getting across Norfolk Southern's active Springfield line and getting a city leader to publicly push the concept.  Significant grading changes and the modification of the bike trail currently being constructed would have to be addressed as well.

Shouldn't be a big problem, it is done all of the time considering the streetcar is just another 'bus' crossing the tracks, albeit a much more attractive 'bus'. The fact that none of the railroad trackage in that area of the city is in any way a main line. The Norfolk Southern Railway line is only used by a mid-day switch job. If future 'commuter rail' became a reality on the 'S' then doing as most other light-rail cities and building a streetcar overpass becomes a possibility at some distant date.

I know if can be done but there were significant liability issues with this in Tampa.  It almost blew up the entire proposal a decade ago.  Do you suspect that dealing with NS won't be as difficult as dealing with CSX?

Correct, NS is usually far more open to civic or public projects, they operate a steam locomotive program with excursions that serve as ambassadors for the company. NS President also recently said that future passenger train operations over the NS will be owned and operated by NS! The Norfolk Southern people have also just turned out 27 new diesel locomotives in the paint schemes of all of the different railroads in their 'family tree'. Something done to the delight of railroad buff's around the world (IE: If you are too young to have ever seen a 'Lackawanna Railroad' engine pulling a train NS has you covered). So yes, NS like the FEC, is a completely different animal. That said, consider to that CSX is the home team so we might get a bit more consideration from them if it's ever needed.

^^ I hope not, but NS can be pretty pig-headed at times.

Ock - I was at the NRHS steam event in 1994 and had the delight of seeing the 611 and 1218 pull us with a GP40 in Southern livery green, and it was an awesome trip, the run-bys, I love seeing the Southern Green and seeing Southern Boxcars still roll by to this day. I wish CSX would put out an AC44W in Monon livery.

Agreed, I'd love to see a CSX job in Tavares and Gulf, Charleston and Western Carolina, Georgia, Atlanta and West Point, Clinchfield and most of all, ATLANTIC COAST LINE and SEABOARD AIR LINE, colors. Talk about a rainbow train!

BUT MEANWHILE BACK IN JACKSONVILLE, WE NEED THIS STREETCAR!

I think the main problem will be the City Council. It looks like we have plenty of volunteers, we can probably raise money, but without politicians on board not much will happen.

I'd LOVE to see this happen!  Some nice, old yet reliable PCC cars would bring quaintness, along with quality. Just my opinion, though. I would love to find someone with whom to rediscover the old Jax trolley tracks!

I'm your huckleberry shel777, glad to give you or anyone else a guided tour of some of the highlights. These are seen in the little quaint business districts scattered around town. With the exception of some scars on the Grand Avenue Bridge, and Aberdeen Street, and a couple of abandoned tracks in the Tallyrand area, there is nothing to see of the old tracks. As for streetcars themselves, all we know for sure is that two calls have come into the JTA switchboard over the last 10 years or so. One identified some old streetcars apparently built into a house or out building somewhere in San Marco, the other around Beaver Street. We had 5 beautiful cars remaining that we visited as of 1984, all of which were destroyed in what might have been some misguided attempt by the JTA 'Skyway bug executives,' who thought that the presence of streetcars would kill chances of Skyway funding. Meanwhile the streetcar barns in Brooklyn were razed because "They got in the way of the Acosta Bridge Ramp's." Then JTA had an epiphany, they wouldn't have been in the way after all (giggle - giggle) so they built a Skyway maintenance barn on the same site. AMAZING!