I normally don’t wish to engage something of this nature, but I feel that something must be done before more people are injured or killed. Perhaps somebody on MJ will know who to forward this info to so that something will be done.
Over several years, I’ve seen and heard several t-bone crashes at the Adams/Laura intersection, and almost got t-boned Thursday as I was about to pass through the green light as I headed north on Laura. As I approached the intersection, a vehicle, apparently not seeing the red light which had been red for a good while, drove at a normal speed through the intersection, right past the nose of my auto. It is important to note that the vehicle was not attempting to "make" the green. The driver simply did not see the red light. I noticed that the driver did stop at the next intersection.
Curious, I drove around the block to determine what a driver sees when going west on Adams and approaching Laura. First, two trees, one on each side, obscure the lights on the sides of the intersection, so that when one is about halfway down the block, one still sees absolutely no traffic lights at the intersection. Secondly, whereas perhaps six intersections leading up to Laura have traffic lights above the intersection, in the center of the road, the Laura Street lights do not. There is nothing there, in the center, which is the configuration offered to the driver on the six previous intersections. Therefore, one could argue that the city has designed and built a trap for the driver, wherein the driver is conditioned to expect that all lights will be in the center of the intersection, but only at Laura, the lights are missing.
People drive and behave according to expectations, which are shaped by repetitive patterns set before them. To expect “all†drivers to catch the little surprise at Laura, where the lights are all of a sudden switched to the sides of the roads, is expecting too much. Not everyone is as alert as MJ posters. :D
I expect that the city could be held liable by a reasonably good attorney, in a courtroom, who would be representing a relative of someone who was t-boned and killed at that intersection. I believe that the city would lose the case.
Standing, I looked at the pleasant “openness†of the intersection, wherein there are no lights above, obscuring the scene. I’ll admit that the lights on the sides of the Laura Street intersections makes for a more pleasant view.
I have not verified it, but I suspect that other streets, like Forsyth, might offer the same kind of trap for drivers approaching Laura. But, perhaps they will not have the trees obscuring the lights.
Solutions: How about first removing the two trees so that drivers can see the lights from a good distance? If that doesn’t work, how about placing signs along Adams warning drivers that the lights at the upcoming intersection are located on the sides of the intersection? If that doesn’t work, how about using the same light poles but arching the lights up and over so that they are in the middle of the intersection? I expect that the tree removal will solve the problem.
My suggestion would be to remove the lights from secondary intersections like Laura and Adams and replace them with four-way stop signs. This pedestrian friendly solution has been successfully implemented in various downtowns across the country.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-SKLQMwF/0/M/P1490170-M.jpg)
I can go along with that. I hate to agree with Jerry Moran though. ;D Jerry suggested the stop signs weeks ago.
Yes, the signs would enhance the people friendly aspect.
Thanks Lake, and Jerry for your attention to the problem several days ago. Thinking further upon this thing, I think both of you, having offered the suggestion of placing a 4-way stop at the intersection, arrived at something somewhat viable. However, whereas these 4-way stops are usually placed in areas where the speeds are already slowed by other pressures such as close-in shops and a greater frequency of pedestrians, or other 4-ways in the area, the use of stop signs now might be premature.
The current habit of moderate speed, and expectations of a light above the intersection, as set by the previous six lights on Adams, will cause the same habit of thought with the 4-way stop signs. Just as the current "trap" is set by the fact that the current lights are to the sides of the intersection, the same type of trap will exist with the stop signs.
It stop signs are placed at the intersection, they should be large and prominent, perhaps with blinking lights atop, not too far to the side, and not obscured by parked autos or trees. If these precautions are achieved, then the 4-way might create both a pleasant look, and an intersection with safer attributes.
Otherwise, the removal of the two trees and any other obstructions might be the first attempt at solution.
Actually, and I think Lake will agree with this, the design of openness at the intersection, the lack of the overhead lights, the bricks within, all of these things anticipate and cultivate a feeling of pedestrian enjoyment, a slowed relaxed mood, which is of course looking ahead at a time when something is done with the vacant buildings along Laura. Therefore, if at all possible, we should maintain the ambiance which was designed for a purpose in the first place.
The stop signs change habits. To make people aware could be as simple as placing signage or painting it on the street.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Chicago-Lake-View/i-DhxtPDC/0/M/P1570379-M.jpg%5Bimg%5D%3Cbr%20/%3E%3Cbr%20/%3E%5Bimg%5Dhttp://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Winter-Haven-Lakeland/i-kvn3Tdm/0/M/P1580587-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Francisco-Aug-2009/DSC0379/625136526_zG7Cx-M-1.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Lakeland-July-2010/P1370395/944307644_37VAe-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Knoxville/i-kZ9hLmT/0/M/P1570925-M.jpg)
Makes sense Lake. A big stop sign actually on the street would add to the visibility of the stop sign.
Looks like Jerry has been already working on the problem, with a slight difference of attention however. Jerry just sent me the following communication between him and Scott Wilson, assistant to Don Redman, including the response from the traffic engineer. Although some of the below doesn’t target the exact problem , it is related. The last item (in red) is the most relevent to this problem. Most of this communication was sent to city council members, and to some others.
Don, (From Jerry to Don Redman June 29, 2012)
I was almost killed this morning on Laura Street at 2:20 AM.
I had some paper work to do, and moved my car off Adams Street to Laura Street so I could keep a video eye on it. You can see from the attached photos that my vehicle was pulled in tight to the curb (the time stamp on the photo is 58 minutes early). Just as I opened the door and put my left leg out, a large sedan traveling north on Laura Street impacted my door and crushed my leg between my vehicle body and it's door. The sedan was accelerating up Laura Street at what I estimate to be 45+ mph. Fortunately, I was not seriously injured. A split second later, and I probably would have lost my car door, and my leg. The sedan did not stop.
About a month ago, a part time employee of La Cena parked his car on Laura Street just North of Adams.. At around of 6:45 PM, a north bound F150 truck struck the employee's vehicle, and caused extensive damage. That was also a hit and run incident. I am paying half of the employee's insurance deductable. The kid supports his mother, and works a full time construction job during the day, in addition to his job here at La Cena. Video of both incidents are available, but no license plates can be made out.
In consideration of the tight two-way traffic we now suffer here on Laura Street due to the recent renovation, our street is not as safe as it once was. I want to offer the following suggestion to increase traffic safety on Laura Street:
Between the hours of 6 PM and 6 AM, there should be no green traffic control lights on Laura Street between Water and Union Streets. The light should only be solid red, or flashing red, and never green.In addition to the cobblestone intersections, my suggestion should further slow down traffic on Laura Street, and reduce the likelihood of accidents caused by the tight vehicle lanes.
Don, this is something that can be done immediately, and at little or no cost. Please give it your full attention.
Thank you.
Jerry Moran
Jerry (From Scott, July 18, 2012)
Below is the response from the Traffic Engineer.
I have reviewed this situation and it would not be possible to put the traffic signals to solid red or flashing red operation. This would either not allow any traffic to move or make it extremely difficult and dangerous for side street vehicle movement due to traffic volumes and sight distance obstructions. The width of the vehicle lanes meet State and Federal highway specifications and present no danger to the motoring public. The lane widths on Laura Street are narrower than twelve feet because JEDC made a decision to make narrower lanes as a traffic calming technique (to slow traffic down). I would suggest as always that when drivers are parallel parked on Laura Street or any street that due care should be exercised when exiting their vehicles parallel to a traffic lane.
Scott A. Wilson
Scott, (From Jerry August 9, 2012)
With reference to the dopy response from the traffic engineer below:
There was another t-bone accident at Laura and Adams this evening. According to surveillance video, a west bound vehicle on Adams Street ran the red light and hit a southbound vehicle on Laura. The attached photo was taken after the truck was moved by the police.
A responding JSO officer stated to me that "...drivers miss the light because it is not mounted over the intersection". Why would the traffic engineer dismiss the observation of a dangerous condition by someone who spends half his life on Laura Street?
I will repeat: Vehicles are racing up and down Laura Street at night. Motorists on Adams Street are missing the corner mounted stop lights, and crashing into vehicles on Laura Street that have the green light.
Inaction by the Traffic Engineer on this matter verges on misfeasance.
What is wrong with the place? I'm not the only one asking this question.
Please advise.
Jerry Moran
This type of change probably won't be led by traffic engineering locally. Traffic engineering in Jax is still heavily vehicular focused. I think serious discussion about removing signals at select locations, two waying streets and lane diets will have to come from the Mayors Office or new DIA.
Anyone who is driving in a downtown environment should expect traffic lights at every intersection and be looking for them. Ditto they should expect parallel parking and pedestrians. I can see the point about the light pattern changing, but really people, you are driving downtown! It isn't an interstate or one of your suburban streets with a traffic light only once a mile or so.
That said, paint Signal Ahead on the street in the middle of the block to alert the drivers and save the sight lines, trees, and lives.
One thing for sure Lake, something has to be done by somebody, else t-boning will continue. It would be much better if the trees obscuring the lights were already grown to a height so that the limbs and leaves would be above the lights.
I agree with Debbie that a big "SIGNAL AHEAD" could be painted on the street about a half block before the intersection. This action might make it less appropriate to remove the two trees currently obscuring the lights.
QuoteAnyone who is driving in a downtown environment should expect traffic lights at every intersection and be looking for them. Ditto they should expect parallel parking and pedestrians. I can see the point about the light pattern changing, but really people, you are driving downtown!
+1
I do not want to see 4-way stops downtown, this will only create more traffic woes on my way to and from the Jaguar games (sarcasm), not to mention most people who drive downtown are perfectly able to realize as Debbie mentions, there is going to be a traffic light on every corner you travel in the downtown area. If nothing else, publicize this in the local traffic school, add signs to make people aware that there are traffic lights downtown.
Driving the wrong direction on one-way streets is more of an issue, I see it everytime I am downtown, people know green, Yellow and Red lights but people do not understand a "One Way" sign???
Okay persons. About 6:30 p.m. yesterday (Wednesday), I was heading north on Laura, after turning from Forsyth, and I had been given a green light for quite some time, perhaps a comfortable four seconds or so. Because of my recent close call at this exact spot just the other day, I slowed to insure that nobody was running the light. Sure enough, a vehicle came from the right at perhaps 25 or 30 mph, much closer to me this time, causing me to hit my brake quickly.
This fellow, a male of the human species, was not trying the "make" the light. He didn't even see the light. Why? Again, my explanation.
A driver traveling west on Adams is offered at every intersection, beginning somewhere east of Ocean, a traffic light in the center of the intersection, thereby causing an expectation of lights at the center of all intersections. The driver can even see the light way ahead, at Hogan, where the lights are at the center of the intersection. Additionally at this intersection, the light is partially obsured by trees.
The driver's mind is totally patterned on "center and high lights" at all intersections.
Expect another crash soon at that intersection. It will not include me because I am now conditioned to practically stop when I approach it. I will post the next crash on this thread, with photos if possible.
I am wondering what the statistics are on the intersection since the lights have been placed on the sides?
I will again suggest that someone from the city drive the Adams approach to the intersection and decide about the idea of removing the trees. If the trees are not removed, then they should place large lettering on the street westbound before the intersection saying something like "Signal Ahead".
This is how they do it in the Gaslamp Quarter. If you want to speed throw lights, you avoid the core streets of downtown San Diego.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/San-Diego-2011/i-ZGdVzj6/0/M/P1480918-M.jpg)
Looks like the traffic light issue is being addressed at Laura and Adams. After sending email to Bill Joyce today, he responded with the following:
Mr. Chamblin:
Thanks for the email. We have scheduled for the trees to be evaluated by the City arborist. He will recommend to what extent the trees can be trimmed to maximize visibility. This should take place shortly. Once the trees have been trimmed the situation should improve.
Thanks, Bill
Be safe in your travels, Mr Chamblin!