In the future...how will we sell rail to the public, particularly on the tracks running parallel to Route 1 and the almighty "MAX"?
I already hear:
* "The lackluster results with the "MAX" rapid transit system prove that doubling-down our investments on the very same corridor for a second rapid transit system is ludicrous."
OR
** "The positive ridership results with the "MAX" rapid transit system prove that Jacksonville readily accepts over rail the BRT concept as the wave of the future and the Jacksonville metro area."
Can somebody please tell me that the "MINIMUM", I mean the "MAX", won't be crushingly detrimental to the development of rail...
Quote from: Jdog on August 11, 2012, 08:36:50 AM
In the future...how will we sell rail to the public, particularly on the tracks running parallel to Route 1 and the almighty "MAX"?
I already hear:
* "The lackluster results with the "MAX" rapid transit system prove that doubling-down our investments on the very same corridor for a second rapid transit system is ludicrous."
OR
** "The positive ridership results with the "MAX" rapid transit system prove that Jacksonville readily accepts over rail the BRT concept as the wave of the future and the Jacksonville metro area."
Can somebody please tell me that the "MINIMUM", I mean the "MAX", won't be crushingly detrimental to the development of rail...
It's not the bus that's the problem, it's the people.
World-wide the life cycle costs of BRT are soaring, the higher O&M, replacement and pavement resurfacing, seem to be wakening larger systems to the Achilles' heel of massive bus investment.
Duplication of routes (the Southside route) just further dilutes the effectiveness of our transit system. This easily could have been routed toward the beaches on Beach Blvd, as well as a location other then under the Skyway in downtown.
People? ABSOLUTELY! JTA and FDOT have been telling the people to get on, sit down and SHUT UP for far too long. It's not what the people want, or even what the people need, it's more about being such an 'authority' that the people can be completely ignored.
Feel like you've been 'tossed under the bus?' One might as well adjust to the fact that our city strives to be the underachiever. In that sea of 'Nordstrom's,' 'Sac's', and 'Macy's', Jacksonville comes across as the 'Big Lots,' of American cities.
Quote from: Jdog on August 11, 2012, 08:36:50 AM
Can somebody please tell me that the "MINIMUM", I mean the "MAX", won't be crushingly detrimental to the development of rail...
Sorry, I've been saying this for years. BRT on parallel corridors will be highly detrimental to the feasibility of future local rail development in Jacksonville. I don't care how one wants to define the users, paralleling lines initially is always a bad thing from a capital cost and ridership standpoint.
Thinking realistically, the best bet for future rail service on the FEC before 2020 will come in the form of Amtrak or FECI (assuming the Miami/Orlando route is initially successful). With those systems, we at least get pulled kicking and screaming. Perhaps a consolation prize is with these we can get a satellite station near the Avenues, providing this region with TOD opportunities in downtown, the Southside and St. Augustine.
With that said, I'm really hoping the FECI project works down South. Since FEC already owns the tracks and will own the system, its service and frequency would be better than anything we could do locally anyway.
Great article, although predicted and covered on MJ for years now. Our leaders can't use great population growth to prove to themselves they are doing a great job. The gig is up: We are far behind our peers. Not only are we slowing in growth, our peers are speeding up in growth.
I have really tried to figure out why JTA would parallel the skyway and the future rail line. I cannot come up with anything. If JTA was trying to flush out the ridership of the skyway and kill the potential of rail, they are only going to kill the potential ridership of the BRT/ making all systems look luke warm at best. What are they thinking? Obviously not of the needs of the people, the future, or the city. :'(
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/08/10/jacksonville-lags-behind-other-us.html:
Jacksonville has long been among the cities with populations in the six-figures, but it is lagging in population growth.
With a population of more than 827,000, Jacksonville ranks No. 4 in the south and No. 11 in the nation for population, according to the latest population estimates from the U.S. Census Bureau.
But Jacksonville’s population only grew 0.75 percent from 2010 to 2011, far less than other large cities like Houston or San Antonio, which grew by 2.18 percent and 2.42 percent, respectively.
A May On Numbers analysis ranked the Jacksonville metropolitan area No. 4 in Florida for daily population growth, reporting that the area gains 31.6 people a day, however, it still lags far behind Miami, which is the fastest growing metro area with 252.2 people added per day.
Click here for a full list of the U.S. cities with the highest populations and their population growth.
I covered this exact topic on the front page of Metro Jacksonville last month. Click on this link to read the feedback generated by our readers.
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jul-2011-census-estimates-for-largest-cities-released
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 11, 2012, 10:31:21 AM
Great article, although predicted and covered on MJ for years now. Our leaders can't use great population growth to prove to themselves they are doing a great job.
Well, as of today, they still are.
Is the MAX even a BRT? It looks like nothing more than an express bus line with odd stops. If they built those bus stations everywhere, I think more people would help improve people's perception of taking the bus. That and 15 min bus intervals. It's sad Jacksonville considers 20 min bus service "rapid" when other cities consider that late.
Except for the routing and dedicated bus lanes and the price attached to this and the marketing that this is more than it is, I don't see anything wrong with The Max other than to show Jacksonville's low ambition to build a modern mass transit system.
How low is this ambition?
QuoteJacksonville drivers have it pretty good.
We don’t have the same kind of traffic jams as Orlando or South Florida.
Thanks can go all the way back to the 1950s when the Jacksonville Expressway Authority started building roads and bridges.
In the intervening decades, Jacksonville’s road network has become so good that mass transit just isn’t necessary for those with the means.
Add in the sprawling area of Duval County, at 840 square miles, and it’s difficult for a mass transit network to serve people efficiently.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/editorials/2012-08-02/story/first-coast-transit-so-many-needs-and-priorities
In short, Jacksonville's natural advantage once again saved Jacksonville the need to build rail or the need to do anything fancy with the transpiration system.
What's with all this MAX/BRT crap? The JTA already has a bus system (sort of). Why is JTA trying to pull a fast one on us? What is their REAL agenda? (It certainly doesnt apprear to be providing quality public transportation)
Quote from: cityimrov on August 11, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 11, 2012, 10:31:21 AM
Great article, although predicted and covered on MJ for years now. Our leaders can't use great population growth to prove to themselves they are doing a great job.
Well, as of today, they still are.
Is the MAX even a BRT? It looks like nothing more than an express bus line with odd stops. If they built those bus stations everywhere, I think more people would help improve people's perception of taking the bus. That and 15 min bus intervals. It's sad Jacksonville considers 20 min bus service "rapid" when other cities consider that late.
Except for the routing and dedicated bus lanes and the price attached to this and the marketing that this is more than it is, I don't see anything wrong with The Max other than to show Jacksonville's low ambition to build a modern mass transit system.
I don't think you can blame the end users for this one. People have clearly stated what they've wanted but are being given a different product. In addition, there's nothing wrong with better bus service, which is basically what the MAX is. It's not really BRT, which typically cost just as much or more as LRT. My major problem has always been the duplication of the Southeast and Southwest corridors and the price tag. The two last issues are the things that will delay true rail investment (anything becoming operational after 2020 is a significant delay to me).
Quote from: cityimrov on August 11, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
Is the MAX even a BRT?
by the Federal Transit Administration's definition, yes
put simply, the reason this has been classified as BRT is that it allowed JTA to apply for and get federal New Starts funding (roughly $40 million)...in turn, the bus routes need to have limited stops, signal priority in select locations, and headways of 15 minuites (10 min. in peak hours).
Yeah, the FTA has created a watered down version of what they consider to be BRT. Some refer to this as ART (arterial rapid transit) or BRT-Lite, because it wouldn't muster as BRT in other countries. Do you think its financially feasible to bypass New Starts funding by modifying existing bus routes without installing signal priority, electronic signage, etc.? It appears the Charlotte did this virtually overnight with their Sprinter BRT line. Doing such, would create a better opportunity to leverage federal dollars for commuter rail along the Southeast and Southwest corridors.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 11, 2012, 08:26:04 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on August 11, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
Is the MAX even a BRT?
by the Federal Transit Administration's definition, yes
put simply, the reason this has been classified as BRT is that it allowed JTA to apply for and get federal New Starts funding (roughly $40 million)...in turn, the bus routes need to have limited stops, signal priority in select locations, and headways of 15 minuites (10 min. in peak hours).
Will taking this $40 million now cause the federal government to think Jacksonville doesn't need any more money for future real mass transit options later on?
QuoteI don't think you can blame the end users for this one.
I don't think I blamed the end users.
The federal new starts program is highly competitive and the funds are limited. We're going up against communities across the country that have their acts together (ie. Charlotte, DC, Portland, NYC, etc.). Only the most feasible projects make it through the process of winning federal money.
Common sense should tell us how we'll end up going after federal handouts for two transit projects in a sprawling sunbelt city that parallel each other. Take BRT cash for Philips Highway and Roosevelt Blvd now and you drop your chance of them handing out money soon for commuter rail along the same corridors.
Up in Charlotte, they desire a LRT/streetcar connection between their airport and Uptown in the long term. In the short, they created a BRT line (similar to what JTA wants to do here) by modifying a bus route on their own dime. When the time is right, they'll go after federal dollars for the game changing project instead of blowing their wad on an incremental improvement.
Typical. At the BRT community "input" events opponents of BRT were completely shut down. As in a "shut up, sit down, I'm going to tell you why you will love it" kind of an attitude. As in a "You don't reallly think I came here to listen to what you have to say, did you?" kind of an attitude from JTA. If you are going to hold a community "input" event, at least have the courtesy to listen with an open mind before you ignore the community input.
Lake, could the express bus routes JTA already tried be considered tp be what you meant with Charlotte's Sprinter line? They didn't work either, I don't think. JTA had an express bus/park 'n ride from the beaches and one from JTA and Phillips. They had a park 'n ride under the bridge overpass in San Marco. I don't think any of those worked. This BRT iteration sounds an awful lot like that with a couple of extra stops.
To note also:
I hear a crap load of "lack of density", "lack of population", "won't be ready for serious transit for a long time,"....
Here we are talking about duplicate and paralleling routes... like a twilight zone or something...
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 12, 2012, 08:19:13 AM
Lake, could the express bus routes JTA already tried be considered tp be what you meant with Charlotte's Sprinter line? They didn't work either, I don't think. JTA had an express bus/park 'n ride from the beaches and one from JTA and Phillips. They had a park 'n ride under the bridge overpass in San Marco. I don't think any of those worked. This BRT iteration sounds an awful lot like that with a couple of extra stops.
No. Charlotte's Sprinter is what JTA is trying to build in Jax. It's BRT that travels on existing streets, sharing lanes with cars. They just implemented it locally instead of going with the Fed's New Starts funding program.
Debbie, what's being proposed is a transit route where a bus will come every 10-15 minutes. The route's stops will be spaced at distances similar to light rail in other communities. Bus stops on the BRT routes will have shelters, ticket vending machines and real time information. Overall, the idea isn't a bad one. Jax needs reliable bus service. Unfortunately, our implementation plan and funding strategy isn't the best and will cost us in the future.