Metro Jacksonville

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Scientists ask: Did a meteor fall in Jacksonville 448 years ago?
Did European settlers observe a comet impact near here in 1564 that destroyed 500 acres in days of fire?


By Matt Soergel   

At sea in August 1564, a Spanish priest in Pedro Menendez’ fleet wrote of a “miracle from heaven” â€" a comet as bright as the sun, streaking west toward Florida.

On land, the hungry, miserable French settlers at Fort Caroline were stunned by a “stroke of lightning” that, one wrote, instantly “consumed about 500 acres and burned with such a bright heat that the birds which lived in the meadows were consumed.”

The fire burned for three days. The river “seemed almost to boil.” Enough fish died to fill 50 carts.

A retired University of North Florida professor thinks the Spanish comet and the French lightning strike were very likely the same thing â€" an object from outer space that struck at the edge of the St. Johns River in Jacksonville.

It could have been a meteor, asteroid or comet 100 feet across, says UNF’s Jay Huebner. Most of it would have vaporized on impact, with trees and animals incinerated in unimaginable heat. Water from the river and marsh would have made a roaring waterfall as it rushed to fill the crater left by the strike.

That crater, Huebner theorizes, is today’s Round Marsh in the Timucuan Ecological and Historic Preserve.

It is a strikingly circular marsh, befitting its name, ringed by live oaks and cedars and palms. It forms about three-quarters of a circle, with an open section leading to the marshes that stretch north toward the St. Johns.

Indeed, it’s not a big leap of imagination to picture it as a crater, albeit one whose secrets are hidden by water, marsh grasses and centuries of muck.

Huebner is quick to credit the strike theory to the late John Golden, a park ranger at the Timucuan Preserve who was also chief nature trails ranger at UNF. Golden approached him with the idea in the 1990s, when Huebner was teaching a class called The Impact of Asteroids â€" pun intended, he says.

The professor was intrigued and, along with some colleagues, did some preliminary investigating. But they put it aside as they moved on to other interests.

Now, at 73, Huebner is ready again.

Standing atop a popular birdwatching tower at Round Marsh, he said he needs to find funding for a scientific expedition to solve the mystery of Round Marsh. To start, he’s trying to raise $10,000 through crowd-sourcing at petridish.org, a science-oriented site. He’s also looking for outside funding.

Huebner is a professor emeritus in UNF’s physics department, a teacher since the school’s first year of classes in 1972. And he’s recruited an informal team of academics from the school to help investigate the marsh.

Finding a crater would be a big deal.

“I’m not a fan of billboards, but imagine the impact of a billboard on I-95 that says there’s a meteor impact in Jacksonville,” he said.

Barbara Goodman, superintendent of the Timucuan Preserve, said the national park will work with researchers to get them the permits they’d need. “It’s a fascinating question,” she said. “We’re all for finding out whether it’s a solid theory or not.”

Barry Albright, a UNF geologist and paleontologist, said that taking core samples would be one way to determine if there had been a catastrophic disturbance in 1564.

He didn’t want to speculate on it, he said over the phone from southern Utah, where he is searching for evidence of sea life from 93 million years ago.

But he is intrigued by the written accounts from 1564. “There’s really circumstantial evidence that indicates that, perhaps, an impact took place,” Allbright said.

There is, however, a discrepancy in the texts: The Spanish priest said the comet passed on Aug. 27; the French said the lightning strike came two days later.

Heubner thinks that was because the Spanish, on board their ships, would have had accurate ways to measure the date. The French, who’d gone through turmoil and hunger in their remote outpost, might have lost track of time.

Whatever day it was, the French account called the events of that August day “more worthy of interest and of being recorded than any unusual thing that has yet to come to pass, more strange than historians have written about.”

It so befuddled those living there, the French at first thought the native Indians might have burned their houses, out of fear of the French: “It left us in wonderment, because we could not guess where all the fire came from.”

The natives, meanwhile, asked what they’d done to offend the French. Why were they firing cannons at them?

Robert “Buzz” Thunen, a UNF archaeologist with extensive experience in Northeast Florida, said first-hand historical accounts can, of course, be exaggerated. And translations of centuries-old documents can be imprecise.

He’s not ready to say there’s a crater at Round Marsh, though he’s happy to be part of the team that would look for it. And it does intrigue him. “At least the way the French presented it, something catastrophic happened,” Thunen said.

Huebner admits he’d be disappointed if they investigated the mystery of Round Marsh and came up with nothing. Still, he just wants to know, one way or the other.

“If it’s not an impact site, it’s important to get the story out that it’s not,” he said, as a breeze atop the birdwatching tower kept mosquitoes at bay. “It’s still a lovely sight.”

Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-08-08/story/scientists-ask-did-meteor-fall-jacksonville-448-years-ago#ixzz233R9jXdn

This is very interesting indeed. The "lightning strike" is recorded in René Goulaine de Laudonnière's account of Fort Caroline. In my opinion, it's quite possible that he might have gotten the date wrong by two days, especially considering the account wasn't written until after Laudonnière and company returned to Europe, long after the event. If so it's very possible that what he described was the same thing the Spanish mariners saw on August 27, 1564.

Laudonnière is fairly clear that the event was one strike, and that it was more significant a wonder than any other sign seen in recent times. Considering that this was a man who had just built a settlement, ground up, on the far side of the world, it must have been quite a site to impress him so much.

The French didn't know what to make of it. The fire that followed the lighting for three days was so vast and destructive they initially thought it must have been set by the nearby Indians, members of the Saturiwa chiefdom. For their part, the Saturiwa, not yet being as familiar with European weapons as they would soon become, thought the French were firing their cannons at them.

In the true European fashion, Laudonnière used the situation to his advantage. Relations were strained between the French and the Saturiwa, largely because the French had decided to pursue an alliance with the Saturiwa's ancient enemies, the Utina. After the fire, a Saturiwa chief, Alicamani from Fort George Island, approached the French with presents, and asked why they would turn their weapons on his village, when they had previously been friends. Laudonnière replied that he only meant to show his power in light of the recent strained relations; if the two sides returned to amity he would not need to use his "weapons" again.

Taking credit for a destructive natural wonder does not seem to have improved things.

If this event turns out to be a meteor strike, it would be one of only about 1,100 observed meteorite falls in all of human history.

Thank you for posting both the article and the additional historical information, Tacachale.

Is this the site?


https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=30.413463,-81.434693&spn=0.001786,0.002411&t=h&z=19

Actually, this appears to be the site in reference.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Mount+Pleasant+Road,+Jacksonville,+FL&hl=en&ll=30.376356,-81.480553&spn=0.014291,0.01929&sll=30.421218,-81.442423&sspn=0.057139,0.109863&oq=mount+plea&t=h&hnear=Mt+Pleasant+Rd,+Jacksonville,+Duval,+Florida+32225&z=16

Although, the "Round Pond" site a posted before looks more circular.

^Yes, it's the second one. The FTU article has an image of "Round Marsh" if anyone wants to post it:

http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/files/METEOR080912.jpg

This brings up an interesting point: Laudonnière is not totally clear which side of the river the strike was on. He says it occurred within half a league from the fort, which was on the south side of the river. However, Alimacani was on Fort George Island on the north side, and he told Laudonnière that the fire had come close to his house.

For other reasons, though, a lot of people think that in this passage, Laudonnière (or a later editor) has confused Alimacani for Saturiwa, the leading chief of the chiefdom, whose house was on the south side of the river near Fort Caroline. Notably, Laudonnière starts the section complaining about Saturiwa, then says that Alimacani came to him about the lightning strike. Without mentioning either name again for the rest of the section, Laudonnière explains that certain things done by Saturiwa are the reason for his "show of force". Why would he complain to Alimacani about things Saturiwa, on the other side of the river, has done?

The whole section makes more sense if you replace Alimacani's name with Saturiwa's. I think this is what Dr. Huebner is thinking: if the fire came close to Saturiwa's village - and Fort Caroline - then we're looking for a site on the south side of the river.

In the end, though, if Round Marsh turns out not to be a meteorite crater, it doesn't mean that the event itself wasn't a meteorite. It could mean we just need to look at a different site.

Quote from: stephendare on August 09, 2012, 10:14:55 AM
Meteorites must love this area: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php?topic=13043.0

Very cool story tacachale, it reminds a bit of the solar eclipse and the Aztecs, no?

It certainly does. It's worth pointing out that while the Indians were unsophisticated enough to attributed this event to European weaponry, they were certainly *not* dumb enough to continue living near someone who'd cause such destruction as a "demonstration". While acting as if they were content with Laudonnière's reply, the chief secretly withdrew 20 leagues away and stayed away for over two months.

This also meant they didn't have to live with the smoke and rotting fish smell in the aftermath of the fire, as did the stationary French.

Great info T

Here is the relevent excerpt from Charles Bennett's translation of Laudonnière:

Quote
So things moved along, and the hate of Chief Satouriona [Saturiwa] against me continued. On August 29 there fell on the fort such a stroke of lightning that I think it more worthy of interest and of being recorded than any unusual thing that has yet come to pass, more strange than historians have ever written about. The fields were at that time all green and half covered with water, and yet the lightning in one instant consumed about 500 acres and burned with such a bright heat that all the birds which lived in the meadows were consumed. This thing continued for three days. It left us in wonderment, because we could not guess where all the fire came from. At first we had the opinion that the Indians had burned their houses for fear of us, abandoning their old places. Then we thought that they might have observed some ships in the sea and, following their usual custom, lighted up fires here and there to show that people lived in this land. Finally not being reassured, I decided to send to Chief Serranay [another local chief, also recorded as Caravay, Saravay, etc.] to find out the truth. But as I was on the point of sending out a boat to ascertain the facts, six Indians arrived from the land of Chief Allicamany [Alicamani]. On entering, they made a long statement, but first they presented several baskets of corn, pumpkins, and grapes. Then they spoke of the amiable alliance that Allicamany wished to enter into with me. They said he could hardly wait, from day to day, until the hour would come when it would please me to put him in my service. They said that in view of the obedience that he had given me, he found it very strange that I should direct such a cannonade against his dwelling, making many of the green prairies burn away right up to the waterline, so much so that he expected to see the fire in his house. Because of this he humbly begged me to order my men not to shoot any more toward his lodging, otherwise he would have to abandon his land and go to a place more distant from us.

When we heard the foolish opinion of this man, which might nevertheless be very profitable for us, I spoke expediently as to what I thought of the matter at that time, responding to the Indians with a happy countenance and saying that what they had told me of the obedience of their chief was very agreeable with me because previously he had not behaved himself in that way toward me, especially when I had told him to send me the prisoners that he detained of the great Olata Ouae Outina, even though he counted them unimportant [This is something Saturiwa did, not Alicamani]. I told him that this was the principal reason why I had sent the cannonade, and not that I had wanted to reach his house, as I could easily have done that if I had wanted to do so. I said that I had been content to fire just halfway down the course to let him know of my power. I assured him that if he continued in his good behavior, my men would not be shooting at him in the future and I would be his loyal defender against his greatest enemies. The Indians were content with this response and returned to reassure their chief who, notwithstanding this reassurance, kept away from his home and at a distance of about twenty-five leagues for a period of about two months. At the end of three days the fire was entirely extinguished. But for two days after that there was such excessive heat in the air that the river near which we had our habitation became so hot that it seemed almost to boil. Many fish died and of many species, to such an extent that in the mouth of the river alone there were enough dead fish to fill fifty carts. The putrefaction in the air bred so many dangerous diseases among us that most of my men fell sick and seemed about ready to finish their days. However, our good Lord took care of us and we all survived without a single death.

Three Voyages, Rene Laudonniere (translated by Charles E. Bennett), pp. 88-90.

Hmm... I've found a potential issue with the chronology.

Laudonnière's lighting strike is recorded for August 29, 1564.

However, the comet seen by the Spanish occurred on August 27, 1565. It is recorded in Francisco López de Mendoza Grajales' The Founding of St. Augustine:

Quote
On Monday, August 27, while we were near the entrance to the Bahama Channel, God showed to us a miracle from heaven. About nine o'clock in the evening a comet appeared, which showed itself directly above us, a little eastward, giving so much light that it might have been taken for the sun. It went towards the west - that is, towards Florida - and its brightness lasted long enough to repeat two Credos. According to the sailors, this was a good omen.

http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=lopez_de_mendoza_staugustine.xml&action=show
(Section III, 19)

There's no way both accounts are talking about the same thing.

^I contacted Dr. Huebner and he agrees about the Father Lopez account. He will update his descriptions in the future. However he definitely believes Laudonnière's account could be consistent with a meteor strike.

Regardless, Round Marsh is still a worthwhile site to explore. It may have been used as a rice plantation in the British period, and further investigation may turn up important information about our colonial history. And if it is a meteorite crater, it's hard to overestimate how significant it would be. Not only would this be one of only 1,100 witnessed meteorite falls in history, this is an easily accessible site in a national park within a large city. It could be the most accessible meteorite crater in the world!

Interested folks can read more about it and donate to the project here:

http://www.petridish.org/projects/a-historic-meteor-crater-in-jacksonville-florida

Does anyone recall the old Rowlabs that was downtown?  It was owned by Ernest Rowland.   I remember it from the 1960's and it was located in an old house.  I can't find any information, but I remember Mr. Rowland was an amatuer astronomer and had an observatory in the upper story.

I recall that he told of a small meteor striking his observatory and he proclaimed it was an unusual event as it had never occurred before and that Ripley's Believe It Or Not was contacting him.   Anybody else hear of this?    :-\

If you do a terrain view in Google Maps you will see that there is some form of bowl there, but that could have been caused by an older flow of the St Johns centuries ago.

The Chixalub Impact in Mexico wasn't finally pictured until they did a scan of the magnetic field around the Yucatan which showed the impact area well below the ocean floor. The meteor impact had disturbed the magnetic characteristics of the area. Effluent from that impact have been found as far north as Missouri.

Another way they located the impact site is they pulled up old core sample Pemex did in the 50's and 60's when they were looking for oil. This had large quantities of minerals common to a meteor at a certain layer. So perhaps if they drilled and collected some core samples, they could look at the "age" of the layers and see if they come across any high carbon (a sign of burning), or some of the minerals from the meteor itself.

Another thought would be to use ground penetrating imaging (ultrasonic or radar based) and get a composite of the site that shows what is below the muck. This has been used extensively by satellites and the oil industry to get imaging on subsurface content. ( They have found ancient rivers beneath the sands of the Sahara)

The technology exists now to research this pretty extensively. They have found the places where Lewis & Clark camped (carbon from firewood and lots of squirrel bones), and also found where old Roman cities in England were sacked and burned by invaders by finding the carbon layer under the soil.

So it is not out of the question that a well planned survey of the site could be accomplished.

I remember getting petri dishes and agar for science projects there.

Mr. Rowland also had a big reflector telescope set up in his back yard in Southside (Miramar?).  It was quite an event to be able to go there and let him find unusual stars and galaxies for you.  His original shop was somewhere in Southside too.

Quote from: Tacachale on August 09, 2012, 01:40:44 PM
Hmm... I've found a potential issue with the chronology.

Laudonnière's lighting strike is recorded for August 29, 1564.

However, the comet seen by the Spanish occurred on August 27, 1565. It is recorded in Francisco López de Mendoza Grajales' The Founding of St. Augustine:

Quote
On Monday, August 27, while we were near the entrance to the Bahama Channel, God showed to us a miracle from heaven. About nine o'clock in the evening a comet appeared, which showed itself directly above us, a little eastward, giving so much light that it might have been taken for the sun. It went towards the west - that is, towards Florida - and its brightness lasted long enough to repeat two Credos. According to the sailors, this was a good omen.

http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=lopez_de_mendoza_staugustine.xml&action=show
(Section III, 19)

There's no way both accounts are talking about the same thing.

I am trying to see if there was a Perseid Meteor shower on those years. If that is the case, it is possible that they saw similar events a year apart as the Earth was at/near the same place in its solar orbit.

Quote from: spuwho on December 13, 2012, 01:57:56 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on August 09, 2012, 01:40:44 PM
Hmm... I've found a potential issue with the chronology.

Laudonnière's lighting strike is recorded for August 29, 1564.

However, the comet seen by the Spanish occurred on August 27, 1565. It is recorded in Francisco López de Mendoza Grajales' The Founding of St. Augustine:

Quote
On Monday, August 27, while we were near the entrance to the Bahama Channel, God showed to us a miracle from heaven. About nine o'clock in the evening a comet appeared, which showed itself directly above us, a little eastward, giving so much light that it might have been taken for the sun. It went towards the west - that is, towards Florida - and its brightness lasted long enough to repeat two Credos. According to the sailors, this was a good omen.

http://mith.umd.edu/eada/html/display.php?docs=lopez_de_mendoza_staugustine.xml&action=show
(Section III, 19)

There's no way both accounts are talking about the same thing.

I am trying to see if there was a Perseid Meteor shower on those years. If that is the case, it is possible that they saw similar events a year apart as the Earth was at/near the same place in its solar orbit.

Yes, I think this would be the proper time frame for the Perseids.

The Perseids are an annual meteor event typically from mid-July to the end of August based on materials from the comet Swift-Tuttle.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseids)

On July 25th, 1565 (30 days prior) a large meteor shower was also recorded in Japan.

It is rare for a Perseid based meteor to reach the ground as they usually burn up at a high altitudes. However, anything is possible if a splinter of the comet occurred in 1564. That might also explain the large amount of meteor activity the following year in Japan and the southern part of North America.

As far as trying to determine if the area here is an impact zone, read the story on how Chicxulub was located and it might provide insight on how to analyze this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicxulub_crater)

Here is a gravity anomaly map at Chicxulub.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Chicxulub-gravity-anomaly-m.png/220px-Chicxulub-gravity-anomaly-m.png)