Metro Jacksonville

QuoteSeminoles: We want Castillo down

Posted: July 23, 2012 - 11:20pm
By PETER GUINTA
peter.guinta@staugustine.com

The Castillo de San Marcos National Monument was a place of torture and death for indigenous people and should be torn down rather than be preserved as a landmark, representatives of the Seminole Tribe of Florida told the St. Augustine City Commission on Monday.

Shannon Larson of Lake Placid, who operates the indigenous support group Ancient Trees, disputes St. Augustine’s claim to being the first city in the New World.

“There was already a settlement here before the Spanish,” Larson said. “There were (many) tribes who were killed, murdered and died in that fort. We must take it down for the healing to begin.”

The Spanish were “war criminals” and “dead murderers should not sit at galas and city events,” she said.

Read the rest at StAugustine.com
http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2012-07-23/seminoles-we-want-castillo-down

Quote“The Spanish brought slavery. We do not believe in slavery,” he said. “(The Castillo) is a slaughterhouse to us. We don’t see anybody speaking about indigenous people here and what was done to them.”

It's been a long time since I took an "official" tour off the Castillo (over 15 years ago), but I still remember being taught about the torture of American Indians and their imprisonment.  In fact, that's one of the only things I remember from that tour. 

Are you kidding me?! Seriously, ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? Grow the blazing frak up, Shannon Larson. We gave your tribe  few reservations, some of your people ran casinos to make so much money, and now you want to destroy a historical landmark that WE NEED to learn from it so, we will NEVER repeat the mistakes of those who did in the past?

Grow up, Shannon Larson! We are all humans, and we are NOT proud of our dark secrets and flaws.

-Josh

EDIT: After reading the article deeply, I realized that it is not the Seminole Tribe, but one specific member who believe in this non-sense notion, Shannon Larson.

These poor folks. Their energy would be so much better spent, I don't know, cleaning a highway or something. They have zero chance of accomplishing their goal here.

I like the part where the mayor "listened politely" as these two ranted about tearing down the fort.

Quote from: Bativac on July 25, 2012, 10:37:22 AM
These poor folks. Their energy would be so much better spent, I don't know, cleaning a highway or something. They have zero chance of accomplishing their goal here.

I like the part where the mayor "listened politely" as these two ranted about tearing down the fort.

I am going to call you out on there. That statement is really almost prejudice-like. It is not "they", because not every single Seminole members share the same view as this person who want to tear down the fort.

-Josh

LOL @ Seminoles

Any member of the Seminole Tribe that arrived at the City Commission meeting via horse, automobile, train, plane or ship, has completely invalidated their argument. You want to get my attention? Walk to the meeting like your ancestors did and shun the 'white mans' medicine that you have selectively used to carry out your protest.

A traditional Seminole? That's rich since the Miccosukee Tribe, of which Bobbie C. Billie is a member, runs casinos in South Florida. 

I don't think the Castillo is going anywhere.

I don't know what's worse here, the silliness of these individuals' desires or the shoddiness of the reporting by the St. Augustine Record.

FIRST OFF: Neither Shannon Lawson nor Bobbie C. Billie are "representatives of the Seminole Tribe of Florida", despite what this reporter says, and what his editor approved for printing.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida is a "federally-recognized tribe", a governing entity of Seminoles in this state, with government-to-government relations with the United States and with Florida. It was recognized in 1957, and is one of three federally-recognized Seminole tribes, along with the much larger Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma and the smaller Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida.

The Seminole Tribe of Florida has over 2000 members, but not all Seminoles, even in Florida, are members. In fact, due to internal and external factors in the mid-20th century, a number of Seminoles primarily living in the Tamiami Trail area formed a second organization, the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, which received federal recognition of its own in 1962.

There are additionally 100 or more Florida Seminoles who are part of neither tribe. Bobbie C. Billie and his family are part of the "Independent Traditional Seminole Nation", called simply "traditionalist Seminole" by the lazy St. Augustine Record reporter, a small, highly traditionalist group of around 30 people in Collier County. They are not federally recognized, and very opposed to modern culture and to the casino industry engaged in by both the federally-recognized tribes.

Bobbie C. Billie has been around for a while, usually drawing attention for things like this. I believe he is not a member of either of the recognized Tribes, though he would be eligible. I don't know anything about Lawson, but at any rate neither of them are qualified to speak for the Seminole Tribe of Florida.

Willie Johns on the other hand is a Seminole Tribe of Florida member who has held various positions in the tribe and has been involved in St. Augustine's 450th celebration, purveying the Native American perspective.

What a disappointing article.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 25, 2012, 11:17:25 AM
Any member of the Seminole Tribe that arrived at the City Commission meeting via horse, automobile, train, plane or ship, has completely invalidated their argument. You want to get my attention? Walk to the meeting like your ancestors did and shun the 'white mans' medicine that you have selectively used to carry out your protest.

That's pretty silly. No one who wants to maintain traditional culture should use any modern infrastructure or devices?

BTW, the Seminole emerged at a time when the horse was already well established in North America.

Quote from: carpnter on July 25, 2012, 11:28:41 AM
A traditional Seminole? That's rich since the Miccosukee Tribe, of which Bobbie C. Billie is a member, runs casinos in South Florida.

To reiterate, he is not a member of the Miccosukee Tribe of Indians of Florida, who have casinos. He's an independent and belongs to a long standing traditionalist group.

Quote from: Timkin on July 25, 2012, 02:26:02 PM
I don't think the Castillo is going anywhere.

I'm not particularly worried either.

Quote from: Timkin on July 25, 2012, 02:26:02 PM
I don't think the Castillo is going anywhere.

It would literally take an act of Congress.

Also, I'm sure the Tribe's official stance would be more along the lines of historical education versus destruction.

Dear Ms. Shannon Larson,
What about Osceola, the great Seminole Indian leader?   You know the one who parades around during the FSU football games.   That's kinda' repulsive isn't it?  Oops, I think I got the wrong Osceola.   Up here in Charleston we got the original Osceola buried right here at Ft. Moultrie on Sullivan's Island.   I guess we need to tear down this Fort too, because the U.S. Army didn't offer proper medical treatment to Osceola when he was imprisoned.  He died of tonsillitis.  Imagine that.

And check this out -- Osceola is buried without his head.   It was removed by U.S. Army surgeon, Dr. Mott and taken to New York Medical School now Columbia University.   Did I mention they got a lot of Native American skulls in storage for the advancement of science?  Yep, I think we should tear down Columbia University, too.   Nothing but a bunch of lefty intellectuals there anyway.

At last but not least down in the Everglades there are bus loads of dumb tourists who are losing their rent and grocery money on Seminole gambling or gaming as they refer to it.  Pawn shops in the area will even take gold teeth so the gamers will have one last chance to daub a dot on the bingo card that will bring them riches.  Problem is they are going home with less teeth and even less money.  So, I think we need to drain the Glades and stop the madness your people are fostering.  We must do sumpin' now!   

^This situation was already at quota of people saying ignorant things, it really doesn't need any more.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2012, 03:05:59 PM

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 25, 2012, 11:17:25 AM
Any member of the Seminole Tribe that arrived at the City Commission meeting via horse, automobile, train, plane or ship, has completely invalidated their argument. You want to get my attention? Walk to the meeting like your ancestors did and shun the 'white mans' medicine that you have selectively used to carry out your protest.

That's pretty silly. No one who wants to maintain traditional culture should use any modern infrastructure or devices?

BTW, the Seminole emerged at a time when the horse was already well established in North America.

Actually I think your argument is pretty silly too...  Funny that you should drive to St. Augustine in a Ford F150 truck or an SUV in order to protest a fort built by the same line of humans that built your Ford?  Horses? What's your point? The Spanish brought them, shouldn't that make them part of the CASTILLO atrocities? The whole thing is rather a stupid stunt, and if by some chance they're successful, then I'm headed to Gettysburg to PROTEST... but I won't be driving a Lincoln.  ;D

Some of you people are entirely too serious, lives to short to be serious.

Quote from: MajorCordite on July 30, 2012, 10:23:41 PM
Dear Ms. Shannon Larson,
What about Osceola, the great Seminole Indian leader?   You know the one who parades around during the FSU football games.   That's kinda' repulsive isn't it?  Oops, I think I got the wrong Osceola.   Up here in Charleston we got the original Osceola buried right here at Ft. Moultrie on Sullivan's Island.   I guess we need to tear down this Fort too, because the U.S. Army didn't offer proper medical treatment to Osceola when he was imprisoned.  He died of tonsillitis.  Imagine that.

And check this out -- Osceola is buried without his head.   It was removed by U.S. Army surgeon, Dr. Mott and taken to New York Medical School now Columbia University.   Did I mention they got a lot of Native American skulls in storage for the advancement of science?  Yep, I think we should tear down Columbia University, too.   Nothing but a bunch of lefty intellectuals there anyway.

At last but not least down in the Everglades there are bus loads of dumb tourists who are losing their rent and grocery money on Seminole gambling or gaming as they refer to it.  Pawn shops in the area will even take gold teeth so the gamers will have one last chance to daub a dot on the bingo card that will bring them riches.  Problem is they are going home with less teeth and even less money.  So, I think we need to drain the Glades and stop the madness your people are fostering.  We must do sumpin' now!

I think he was just being sarcastic and raise a wisecrack point about this to the whose who wants to tear down Castillo because of its dark history.

-Josh

At any rate, if anyone wants to know more about the Traditional Independent Seminole Nation and the Billie family, the Sun Sentinel ran an excellent article on them back in 2000.

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2000-08-05/lifestyle/0008040629_1_chickee-huts-clan

Don't let the powers that be in Jax start controlling St. Augustine. The Fort will be demolished and there will be a tunnel car wash, strip mall and a Wal-mart up in its place ,in no time. ;)

^ Pretty accurate Stephen.   I can see it already ,  Gateway to the City, Oldest School House and entire St.George District razed to make way for the Historic St.George Street  Mobile Home Park...with historically-correct windows :) .

Can you imagine if Jacksonville had preserved its landmarks, large or small, as well as St. Augustine has, all of the points of interest we could have?  And yet we continue to knock down history.   Something is wrong with this picture.

Quote from: Timkin on July 31, 2012, 12:42:50 PM

Don't let the powers that be in Jax start controlling St. Augustine. The Fort will be demolished and there will be a tunnel car wash, strip mall and a Wal-mart up in its place ,in no time. ;)

No it won't.  It'll either be a retail-less steel parking garage, or just a vacant lot.

Quote from: stephendare on July 31, 2012, 12:51:45 PM

Quote from: Timkin on July 31, 2012, 12:42:50 PM

Don't let the powers that be in Jax start controlling St. Augustine. The Fort will be demolished and there will be a tunnel car wash, strip mall and a Wal-mart up in its place ,in no time. ;)

yet it will still be marketed as historic, and the demolition will be approved by the preservation commission, along with the neighborhood preservation group, which will angrily demolish the building to make way for additional parking.

Afterwards they will all talk about the historical correctness of the types of windows installed in the surrounding trailer parks.

Unlike Jacksonville, The jalousie window and unfinished furniture capital of the world, St. Augustine should be able to make hay selling off little 3" x 3" inch coquina paper weights. Do the math! There is enough stone in that fort to create 6.7 trillion paper weights. What do y'all say? 'Lets get to work!'

OCK

^lets see... at $1.00 per paper weight.  That would be enough money to restore every vacant building in the downtown Jax area (and some outlying downtown areas).

Maybe we should take salvage rights and tear it down :P. Finally!  a solution to Fix up the Laura Trio!! :P

Quote from: wsansewjs on July 31, 2012, 08:40:46 AM

Quote from: MajorCordite on July 30, 2012, 10:23:41 PM
Dear Ms. Shannon Larson,
What about Osceola, the great Seminole Indian leader?   You know the one who parades around during the FSU football games.   That's kinda' repulsive isn't it?  Oops, I think I got the wrong Osceola.   Up here in Charleston we got the original Osceola buried right here at Ft. Moultrie on Sullivan's Island.   I guess we need to tear down this Fort too, because the U.S. Army didn't offer proper medical treatment to Osceola when he was imprisoned.  He died of tonsillitis.  Imagine that.

And check this out -- Osceola is buried without his head.   It was removed by U.S. Army surgeon, Dr. Mott and taken to New York Medical School now Columbia University.   Did I mention they got a lot of Native American skulls in storage for the advancement of science?  Yep, I think we should tear down Columbia University, too.   Nothing but a bunch of lefty intellectuals there anyway.

At last but not least down in the Everglades there are bus loads of dumb tourists who are losing their rent and grocery money on Seminole gambling or gaming as they refer to it.  Pawn shops in the area will even take gold teeth so the gamers will have one last chance to daub a dot on the bingo card that will bring them riches.  Problem is they are going home with less teeth and even less money.  So, I think we need to drain the Glades and stop the madness your people are fostering.  We must do sumpin' now!

I think he was just being sarcastic and raise a wisecrack point about this to the whose who wants to tear down Castillo because of its dark history.

-Josh

Thank you Josh.   It has been said that understanding the subtlety of literary sarcasm requires a somewhat skilled interpretation of the writer's intention.  Sarcasm has traditionally been used to ridicule or to mock --  sometimes in an indirect manner.  However, some people lack the ability to recognize irony or even ambivalence in ones point of view.  Like the old saying:  "I think that joke went over his head."  Next time I should be more careful when expressing my opinion.

History comes in many flavors and if you don't like the flavor of the day you can always revise it to suit your tastes.   :P