A LETTER TO EMPLOYEES OF THE JACKSONVILLE SHERIFF’S OFFICE
Wednesday, July 11, 2012
As you all know, the City of Jacksonville continues to experience a serious financial crisis. As occurs throughout the year, and particularly in preparation for the upcoming fiscal year budget, we have been appraising the mayor’s office of our successes (lowering the crime rate through innovative, intelligence led policing tactics and citizen involvement) and our challenges (sustaining crime reductions after having laid off personnel and reduced services; paying for services for which we have no operational control).
In fiscal year 2011-2012 the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office was forced to lay off sworn police officers for the first time in the history of consolidation. This was a deep cut, and in addition to the other people, positions and services we eliminated, all were mandated by the city’s circumstances, last year. The crisis has not abated.
It has actually been strained even further by the increased required pension payment combined with the revenue shortage caused by the continued declines in our property values, resulting in a decline in revenue from property taxes. Normally, some of this revenue decline would be adjusted through a process called “rolling back†â€" which allows the taxable rate on property to self-adjust to previous year’s tax revenue, resulting in NO increase in property taxes paid by the property owner. It allows the city to collect the same amount of revenue as was previously collected. It is my understanding that this adjustment will not occur and the result is less revenue and less money into the general fund. That directly forces cuts to city services, particularly police and corrections.
I would categorize our budget discussions thus far, internally and with both the mayor’s office and various members of the city council, as deliberative and comprehensive, but simply put: the pain continues. I have continued to voice my frustration over the percentage of our expenses which are NOT controlled by us. I am referring to internal services provided by the city for which actual costs should be identified, but cannot be. Theoretically, the costs for services such as IT, fleet management, insurance, benefits, should be passed on to the customer, JSO, with NO MARK UP or cost shifting. However, our budget continues to reflect line items for which we have no purchasing power (employee insurance, fleet management, copiers, etc.) or for which I have no bargaining power (the pension). My concerns have been noted, but we are heading into fiscal year 2012-2013 with no equitable solution to addressing these large sums or parts of our budget for which I have no managerial oversight; and no solution for the pension issue, for which I have no vote nor any control. These items are all placed in the JSO budget.
As I grapple with that, I must remind you that we are stepping up and making sure we are doing our part to help the city meet its fiscal challenges. But I do this at a time when the crime reductions of the last three years, reductions for which every one of you and our citizen-partners have worked, may no longer be sustainable with the manpower levels we will be facing after this next round of cuts.
At this time it appears, yet again, the only way to meet the huge budget reductions being forced upon us by the declining revenues and the rising cost of the pension payment is if I make wholesale, massive cuts to the expenses that we do control â€" which translates to people and services to this community.
The bulk of those budget cuts will come from the elimination of our Community Service Officer program, and the dismantling of our Community Transition Center (minimum security) corrections facility and its programs, such as secure drug treatment.
The Community Service Officer (CSO) program: This program has been a valuable force multiplier and career launching pad for many hard working young people. But, sadly, we will be following suit with other agencies around the country that have also been forced to eliminate such programs. We will realize a $3.3 million dollar savings, but will be facing tremendous challenges in transitioning their duties and responsibilities to sworn officers and other agencies. In particular, working the crashes that occur on our state roadways within the city limit will have to be assumed by the Florida Highway Patrol. I have met with their leadership, and Director Michael Edwards is handling the operational transition and challenges this change will present. The bottom line here is not the $3.3 million dollars saved, but instead the challenges our citizens will face in wait times for FHP officers to respond to crashes that require a police report for insurance purposes or a professional determination of fault. I appreciate the support of the FHP in making this transition. The entire CSO program will be eliminated on August 24th, with sixty-three CSO’s being laid off.
The Community Transition Center (CTC): Often referred to as “the crown jewel†of our corrections operation, after August 24th we will no longer be running the nationally recognized 135 bed in-patient drug rehabilitation center known as Matrix House. Many non-violent, drug and alcohol addicted offenders have had their lives and futures changed because of this program, and it is with great sadness we must shut it down. The resulting dollar savings will be $4.4 million dollars for the operation, and we will forego the $1.5 million of funding from the city for the counseling services that have been provided by River Region Human Services. Programs such as home detention will be expanded, and those inmates/clients who currently have to be supervised will be matriculated into the general jail or prison populations; populations that are already burgeoning. The “savings†from the elimination of the CTC will be realized through the reduction in force of 58 corrections officers. There will be reassignments within our corrections department, as well as the reversions of four corrections lieutenants and 14 corrections sergeants to lower rank. Nine civilian staff members, including program supervisors, will also be laid off. We will be shuttering the facility at 535 Washington Street, and moving the pre-trial services office to the CTC location at 451 Catherine Street. It has better infrastructure, and is a more serviceable facility. This cut will not impact our re-entry program.
Again, any savings realized by the “bottom line†is not easy for me to understand, as I come to terms with the possible increase in the recidivism rate; the impact to the jail population; and our long term ability to deliver corrections services that are restorative and go beyond the mere warehousing of inmates.
We will be permanently eliminating 319 positions in the agency. They are comprised of 74 police officer positions (vacant/will become vacant in FY 2012); 91 corrections positions (58 layoffs/33 vacancies) and 154 civilian positions (72 layoffs/82 vacancies). Yes, many of them are currently vacant, but completely removing them from our personnel cap means any hope we had of hiring more officers; replacing some individuals who retired or resigned; or making up for the loss of the 45 officers and 29 civilian personnel laid off last year will not be possible.
A few other changes that we might expect include reworking our organizational chart, from the top down, to shift responsibilities and duties in response to program closures and manpower changes. I am studying those items closely, and anticipate more announcements as we “even out†the span of control of various parts of our management structure.
With regard to traffic control during special events in our city; the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office will no longer be able to afford to provide traffic officers for which we do not receive compensation for our costs. Like many other large cities in the country we will not be offering traffic control to any event or facility as a convenience to our citizens. This will signify a tremendous shift in the expectations of our citizens, as they may be forced to wait in traffic longer than they previously have, if a sponsoring organization is not able to cover the costs of officers working traffic.
This is where things stand as of today. In the coming days there will be a lot of rumor, speculation, and as talks continue with city leaders, this plan may change. Please remember that these reductions are a direct result of increased pension costs and reduced revenue for the city. Revenue that I believe can be recouped, to some degree. I believe that we cannot continue to follow a “scorched earth†approach to meeting revenue shortfalls, which are happening because of a) a world-wide economic downturn and b) our city’s long term failure to deal with the growing pension obligation, including properly investing back when pension returns were solid. We, the city, need to cut expenses and increase revenue. I will be advocating for an increase in our property tax rate, to provide necessary revenue for public safety. Our property tax rate is purported to be (if not the lowest) among the lowest of any large city in the state.
I want you to know that you remain my top priority â€" your safety, your well-being, and by extension, the safety and welfare of all our citizens. We will weather this and any storm, literally and figuratively. No crisis changes the fact that I am honored to lead you and proud of all you do for our community, every day.
God Bless You All
John H. Rutherford, Sheriff
Quote from: stephendare on July 11, 2012, 09:28:28 PM
This will come to no good end.
But hey, at least we will have the lowest tax rate in the entire state!
What could possibly go wrong?
Exactly, low taxes will lead to prosperity and job creation which will greatly reduce crime, as no one will need to steal to obtain life's necessities.
If you see a JSO officer, thank them for what they do, cause soon, they will be doing a lot more with fewer people around them.
Alvin, how is this better government? Even Peyton raised taxes or fees, is the city burning in hell really worth it?
This is what conservative Jax wants.
Uh, I disagree, not every conservative wants to compromise public safety for cuts. Brown needs to fix it and sell the solution, hey, time to put on the big boy pants and go toe to toe with the council and do what is best for Jacksonville.
Is cutting 300 workers at the JSO the best thing for Jacksonville? Brown's legacy is on the line, let's hope he has a better plan for this, than he did for the Jaguars.
Mitt Romney is campaigning on how out of touch Obama is for wanting Police, Firefighters and teachers. To conservatives now a days a fireman pulling someone out of a burning building is just a Union leach abusing the public tit.
The crazy thing is most of the tea party people I have met are regular people. I'm sure some are wealthy I guess. Haven't met one yet. But it seems this group are the ones who are going to get the screws as their quest for "anti tax increases" continue to plague the entire country. I don't love taxes, who does? But I'm a realist. How the heck else are you going to pay for services?
This tax cut mentality has NOT produced good results in the job market.
Don't believe the lies that companies are sitting on their money until the election for fear of health care reform or increased taxes. May small business but not big. They are sitting on their money because they think they can get more for less. That was exactly what the Big Electronic company I work for preached all of last year.
They have billions in cash by the way.
But that whole philosophy has backfired as I had proclaimed that it would. As our customer service and sales have suffered due to lack of employees and the national press has crucified the company, they have now made an about face. They realize the company will NOT survive unless they provide well trained employees and a decent amount of floor coverage.
But they still pay crap.
If Americans remain stupid about taxes it's going to be a fun few years in our future.
Pave your own road, Get a big fat hose to fight your own fire, burn your garbage in your backyard, and put land mines in your yard to stave off burglars.
Now that's how you privatize.
Quote from: JeffreyS on July 11, 2012, 11:35:56 PM
Mitt Romney is campaigning on how out of touch Obama is for wanting Police, Firefighters and teachers. To conservatives now a days a fireman pulling someone out of a burning build is just a Union leach abusing the public tit.
Of course it is. He probably has a private staff that will pull him out of a fire, teach his kids and armed guards to protect his home. Your problem is your too stupid to be rich, or you foolishly had a soul and wouldn't put thousands out of work and send jobs overseas, so why the hell should he care about you?
God help us all. As much as I hate paying taxes (does anyone actually like them?), I'd be willing to pay to keep the CSO's working, and the transitional center open.
The CSOs do a great job responding to non-injury traffic accidents, and other functions where a police officer isnt absolutely necessary. Sure this will save money, but its also gonna increase response times cuz now JSO will have to respond to EVERYTHING.
As for the transition center, God help those struggling with drug issues who really want to get clean. Even the sheriff said there would be a problem with recivitism(?) Again, something like this I dont mind being taxed for. Addictions are a bitch to beat, and without this avenue of help, the problems will obviously become worse.
Thanx, Alvin, you sorry pathetic excuse for a mayor. You're a disgrace to us JU grads! >:(
Or we could stop persecuting the populace for the human condition and focus on violent crime...
Quote from: RockStar on July 12, 2012, 01:49:41 AM
Or we could stop persecuting the populace for the human condition and focus on violent crime...
That accounts for a lot of law enforcement presence in today's society unfortunately. It's sort of set up to justify their existence in a lot of ways. Especially when we're talking about stuff like writing tickets to random drivers for going 10 miles over the speed limit, seat belt fines (that do absolutely nothing but bring in revenue), busting people in that pesky "war on drugs" we've been throwing money at for decades, and other non-violent crimes. Don't forget that America only makes up around 5% of the world's population, but 25% of the overall prison population in the world.
I'm not saying taking away officers is a good thing, when put towards the right things that actually benefit society & aren't just the rackets the system has set in place for itself. There's a LOT of that in this country, and the world in general. Not just law enforcement, but tons of other stuff. The problem is identifying & pinpointing them, looking past the bullshit.
Again, if the city had made their contributions to the pension fund during the strong economic years, then there would be no shortfall now. Fiscal responsibility, or the lack there of, is the real issue. Don't spend imaginary money, and fund what you contractually agreed to.
Is he saying that the JSO will only save $3.3 million when 319 positions are eliminated? That comes down to $10,345 per position, I doubt that any single position at the JSO costs only $10,245 after you factor in salary, insurance and all of the other taxes associated with a position. Even at a very modest $30,000 per position you would save over $9.5 million on 319 positions.
I think about 75 of those positions are vacant anyway, so he is not cutting that much as it makes it sound. He is getting rid of the Community Officers, which, if you look around folks, most cities have already done. Heck, some cities are about to pay their firefighters and police minimum wage. Some cities are even going bankrupt.
This is not jsut a Jacksonville issue. Property tax fallout and ballooning pension costs are the culprit. Its a nationwide issue. Raising taxes may help a little, but Payton kept raisng taxes and fees for this and that and it never seemd to help anything. We seem to keep having budget shortfalls year after year after year, even with garbage taxes and stormwater fees.
It could be alot worse.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-san-bernardino-bankruptcy-20120712,0,2433019.story
I've never liked the idea that we should feel fortunate cause "look how bad we could have it". I'd rather not race anyone to the bottom.
http://thetimes-tribune.com/news/scranton-police-fire-and-dpw-unions-file-motion-for-contempt-against-mayor-who-slashed-salaries-1.1341634 Min Wage for all City Workers in Scanton, Pa. :(
Quote from: BackinJax05 on July 12, 2012, 12:35:08 AM
Thanx, Alvin, you sorry pathetic excuse for a mayor. You're a disgrace to us JU grads! >:(
Is it Alvin's fault?
Or is it the Council's fault?
Or what about the vast majority of the people in Jax with the lovely "Taxed Enough Already" mindset? Y'know - the ones who elected those first two choices in the first place?
There are plenty of inefficiencies at JSO that could be addressed to save some money. It may not be enough to meet the budget constraints but it could reduce the number of positions that need to be eliminated.
120 living, breathing taxpaying citizens of our county will be out of work August 24 and on unemployment due to the layoffs. Not all of these positions are vacancies. Not sure how this is growing jobs in Jacksonville.
And, when the Community Transistion Center closes, so does the Matrix drug treatment program run by River Region Human Services. There is no way that agency will be able to absorb the personnel currently running that program without the city contract, so look for layoffs there as well.
The ripple effect of these layoffs spread far and wide.
Quote from: Doctor_K on July 12, 2012, 09:55:36 AM
Quote from: BackinJax05 on July 12, 2012, 12:35:08 AM
Thanx, Alvin, you sorry pathetic excuse for a mayor. You're a disgrace to us JU grads! >:(
Is it Alvin's fault?
Or is it the Council's fault?
Or what about the vast majority of the people in Jax with the lovely "Taxed Enough Already" mindset? Y'know - the ones who elected those first two choices in the first place?
You know? This is what Jacksonville wanted. We screamed when Peyton raised taxes again, so we asked alvin not. He said he wouldnt. So............where are we now? lol But there are things JSO can do to run more efficent. For example, not sending three police cars when someone is pulled over speeding. As far as the community services officers.. I know one.......THEY DONT DO SHIT. When I asked what he does, he either sits someone parked or drives around all day waiting on a call about an accident, etc etc. So maybe we can do without them. Im not for people losing their jobs, but there are something JSO can do better.
Well life is good down here in good ole conservative Clay County (Fleming Island). No cuts here by the good ole boys. Things run efficient here, a real tight ship for you Navy vets. The occasional rukus down here is usually caused by escaped gangstas from Duval County (west side mostly, some northside). Now, they won't have any reason to leave Duval. Good on ole (deer in the headlights) Alvin. Cut to the bone. Make em squeal. Some of them heffers can barely fit in uniforms anyway. ;D
^ ::)
It's likely the secure drug treatment program at CTC has done more to prevent future crime than any other crime fighting effort, but it is difficult to measure what has been prevented. Just locking addicts up does absolutely nothing to address their addiction, which they will engage in upon release along with the ancillary crimes necessary to obtain the substance they need.
Even if we legalized all the now illegal substances tomorrow - and, some do need to be legal, just as one of our most abused substances, alcohol - we would still need treatment options for some of our citizens. We have far too few of these programs now, and the elimination of one with proven positive effects make no sense. Or, at least as much sense as laying off people to grow jobs does.
If you, or the ones you love have been ravaged by addiction, having treatment available is often your best and last hope.
QuoteWell life is good down here in good ole conservative Clay County
Thanks to the conservative Clay County, Duval County may get the silly red light cameras too! Thanks Conservatives!
^another waste of money. And silly.
Raise taxes? Most of the time I find the people that say raise taxes, mean raise the taxes on everyone else (the wealthy, corporations, property owners) but not themselves. Its really easy to sit back and say, "Everyone pay more taxes but me to fix the cities problems." If you are saying raise the taxes on every single person like through a sales tax and you personally would like to pay more taxes, then I will respect your opinion. Otherwise, I just ignore those people.
Also, I believe a large portion of these cuts are from the Community Service patrol. If I had to chose between having a few more community service officers or growing business and reviving downtown, I would chose the latter hands down. The deal with Everbank is an example:
"The relocation will add 8 percent to the workforce downtown, city officials said, and should lead to ripple effects, creating more demands for restaurants, shops and perhaps even housing. “It’s the first step toward the resurgence of downtown,†said Jerry Mallott, executive director of economic development group Cornerstone.
"An incentives agreement with the City and state called for 1,000 jobs to be moved and 200 to be created."
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-12-19/story/everbank-move-1500-workers-downtown-mid-2012#ixzz20vIkqPey
So, where did all the money go? What happened to all the profits the city was reaping in good times? What did Jacksonville spend it on? What happened to all the money Jacksonville invested in? Does this have anything to do with giant floating nuclear reactors?
I'm not sure if the sole answer is throwing more money at the department, but something has to be done to make sure THIS is not allowed to happen again:
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-07-17/story/saturday-night-flash-mob-takes-over-jacksonville-wal-mart
My big question is this: are the resources of the JSO being utilized to their best? I have no doubt that they work hard, I have to say that because I truly believe it. I'm just wondering if there are more things that can be done in crime prevention for Jacksonville even if there are budget cuts.
The limited number of proposed red light cameras are an an expensive, non-revenue generating farce. The City has to share, no, PAY the provider from the proceeds of the fines collected just to have the system. Other locales have already found that the cost of operation severely limits any expected revenue from these cameras. The need to have each and every hit reviewed by a law enforcement officer before assessing fines also takes another body away from the streets where he or she could be doing more for the community.
The sane method of curtailing red light runners and making some cash in the process is to target the areas most prone to violations. Why have a traffic enforcement officer, in his unmarked car, sit in the driveway to the Episcopal sports complex on Atlantic Blvd. waiting for some fool exceeding the speed limit when he could join forces with a spotter at the intersection of University and Atlantic just up the street and reel in some real bucks from the fools running the red light. Somebody has failed Math 101 in this case.
http://www.youtube.com/v/4DnNEgIOnfU
Personally id rather not allow this right wing conservative sheriff decide what happens to our city. Is this sheriff trying to run for the next mayor? Hes getting a big fat retirement while the rest of the citizens starve...he runs to taxes when his people are threatened but when our children cant read or write but he says oh no dont you touch my taxes for kids...hipocrit....he sings the same song as evert other conservative.
All the Council has to do is raise the millage rate so that the property taxes collected in 2012 will be the same in 2013, its a number and they can then peg it and sell it. So even though the rate rises, we pay the same as we did last year, to keep the cops.
Question is, are you willing to pay what you paid this year, next year, for the 300 cops and a safer Jacksonville. Taking them off the streets will not make us safer.
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 19, 2012, 11:21:59 PM
All the Council has to do is raise the millage rate so that the property taxes collected in 2012 will be the same in 2013, its a number and they can then peg it and sell it. So even though the rate rises, we pay the same as we did last year, to keep the cops.
Question is, are you willing to pay what you paid this year, next year, for the 300 cops and a safer Jacksonville. Taking them off the streets will not make us safer.
+1.
I've been told Jacksonville is one of the only municipalities that allows cops to drive their cars home and while off duty. I've also been told this is a massive number on the JSO expense line. The vast majority of cities require the police force drive their own vehicles when off duty.
I know their can be an argument made for having those cars in neighborhoods, but I don't think it's worth the cost and it's unfair to people who aren't in a neighborhood with a police officer.
(Don't believe everything you hear, I know)
Quote from: danem on July 17, 2012, 08:11:17 PM
I'm not sure if the sole answer is throwing more money at the department, but something has to be done to make sure THIS is not allowed to happen again:
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-07-17/story/saturday-night-flash-mob-takes-over-jacksonville-wal-mart
My big question is this: are the resources of the JSO being utilized to their best? I have no doubt that they work hard, I have to say that because I truly believe it. I'm just wondering if there are more things that can be done in crime prevention for Jacksonville even if there are budget cuts.
Weill this can happen anywhere regardless of how many police are on the streets. There are not many wal marts that are heavliy armed with multiple police officer's either. That was a totally unexpected occurance.
Quote from: downtownjag on July 20, 2012, 12:38:08 PM
I've been told Jacksonville is one of the only municipalities that allows cops to drive their cars home and while off duty. I've also been told this is a massive number on the JSO expense line. The vast majority of cities require the police force drive their own vehicles when off duty.
I know their can be an argument made for having those cars in neighborhoods, but I don't think it's worth the cost and it's unfair to people who aren't in a neighborhood with a police officer.
(Don't believe everything you hear, I know)
No, most Florida Sheriff's Offices and many agencies across the nation have the same policy. Several studies years ago showed that the so called "Indianapolis Plan" actually saves money by extending the life of the cars.
I can't answer the "fairness" issue. Cops live in middle class neighborhoods.
Given that the JSO budget issue is still with us, I modified slightly my former post on the subject, and offer it below.
The safety of individuals is an emotional component, and so it is given a high priority in the determination of police department budgets. Therefore, anyone attempting to cut a sheriff’s budget, even though cuts might make good sense, is portrayed as being careless or negligent, with the result that during good economies the sheriff's department can balloon to a size obscenely large for the community it serves, with the consequence that tax dollars which should go to libraries, schools, teachers, youth programs, job training, job creation, and other programs designed to reduce the fundamental causes of crime in the first place, are wasted on a bloated agency. Because of a lack of strong and sensible leadership, and because of a momentum of inefficiency, a habit set in the JSO long before the current sheriff, the JSO thrives on the very conditions caused by its own inefficiency, which is its habit of taking funds needed for programs and entities as stated above, which, if implemented, would otherwise reduce the need for policing.
A glance at the dynamics involved in all governmental agencies should illuminate the crux of the problem with the JSO budget. The JSO is a governmental agency which does not have the benefit of the pressure of a competitive marketplace to enforce and promote efficiency and excellence of service. When a private firm has poor leadership, performs inefficiently, and does not effectively address the needs of its customers, it fails. When a governmental agency such as the JSO has poor leadership, performs inefficiently, and does not effectively address the needs of the community, it not only survives, it asks for more money so that it can hire more police to bloat the agency, and perpetuate its mediocrity.
With increased training and improved operational policies, the JSO could reduce its force by 30% and achieve the objectives set before it. And if the funds saved by this reduction were targeted to programs and assistance to needy individuals who otherwise would end up jobless and in the jail cycle, the force could eventually be further reduced because of the decreasing crime rate. Our policies of ignoring the root causes of crime, and the JSO’s habit of growing its empire is a vicious circle which will only worsen if we do not curb the funding of the JSO and route funds to programs as stated above. Reducing the funding to the JSO will tend to force efficiency within it.
Whereas a private company achieves objectives with efficiency and excellence, the governmental agency achieves objectives with a massive work force and a massive budget, the swollen budget being the root cause of too little funds being available for schools, teachers, libraries, training and job programs for youths â€" precisely the things needed to make the JSO less necessary in the first place. We are creating a population of youths who will be engaged by the jail system simply because they have been left out of the loop of getting attention by way of effective programs and services as a result of excessive tax funds funneled to the JSO.
Whereas the crucial motive force for excellence and efficiency in the private company is the competitive market place, the key motive force for excellence and efficiency in a governmental agency such as the JSO is effective leadership and a low to moderate budget. Perceptions of a bloated agency, of inefficiency, of a lack of excellence in performance, of waste, along with a sense of mediocre leadership, not only cultivates poor morale amongst the officers, but it allows for poor performance, and even occasions of indifference and arrogance toward the populace they are set to serve. A tightly run ship, running lean, increases morale and performance. How often does one see indifference and arrogance in a successful private concern? Zilch. How often does one see indifference and arrogance from individuals within the JSO? Frequently. This behavior is a consequence of poor leadership from the top, and a consequence of poor morale and a lack of focus as to ultimate purpose. Morale and performance waivers as employees observe moods of waste and indifference, and when they sense a lack of strong and effective leadership at the top.
In my business experience, both as an employee and a business owner, I’ve become aware that without good leadership, many work force environments are set with a condition wherein 60% of the work is done by 30% of the people. And I’ve come to the conclusion that, by changing attitude alone, and given focus, an employee can produce twice the work as might earlier have been the case.
We need as much funding as possible to support quality education, to reward dedicated teachers, for programs to help the young wayward and needy find their path to independence and productivity in our society. Our senseless system wherein we ignore the youth and other needy only insures that they remain in need, that many engage crime, and that the jails remain full. Our history of focusing only on funding an inefficient JSO at the expense of funding programs to ultimately decrease the need for the JSO, is a consequence of poor vision, of complacency, of being too comfortable in our shells. Continued blindness to the dynamics involved in the scenarios above will only prolong the expense to all of us, and to the suffering of those in the jails, on the street, in the ranks of the unemployed, and in the shelters.
Those who argue against paying reasonable taxes to pay for schools, teachers, educational programs, youth assistance, reasonable and sensible assistance for the needy, job training and creation, should realize that they are reaping the consequences of too-low taxes, by way of increased crime, followed by an increased JSO budget, and not enough funds for positive societal investments. The habit of playing politics with taxes, when there are fundamental necessities urgent for the achievement of societal objectives and quality of life for the majority, is a shameful and irresponsible behavior, selfish in the extreme, and should be avoided by any politician who desires to be remembered as a true leader, and a benefit to his or her community.
Show me a young man reared in our community who is in jail, and I’ll show you a young man who was deprived of a good childhood, deprived of a mentor, deprived of guidance and supervision, deprived of youth programs which take over where parents fail. Criminals are not born, they are created by the society within which they live. The youth do have choices. But the choices are limited too often to those of crime by the local environment. If there are no jobs in our local environment, and no reasonable assistance for those without jobs, crime is too often the choice made by those who are not prepared for other options.
Show me a young black youth who has little education and no skills and I’ll show you a young black man who will most likely be in jail within two years. Why? We, as a community, have failed our young people, especially the black youth. Look at the prison and jail population. Look at the cost of incarceration to our community. And some, the comfortable and the complacent, those who play with politics at the expense of our population, wish to additionally fund the JSO instead of funding entities and programs which, if implemented, would preclude the need to further bloat this agency.
There are those who continue wasting tax money fighting the destructive consequences (crime and full jails) of actions or inactions, when they could eliminate the consequences if they would make decisions to eliminate the causes of them.
Ron - I agree with you on the fact that the JSO could slash waste in its operations and back office areas. I would think the City Council folks on the finance committee would ask, hey, why do you need an HR staff when the City provides one for all the agencies in the city? Why do you need 40 people in IT, when we have a very good IT department in the Hogan building? Logistics, records, the list goes on and on and on. The fact that the Sheriff has raised his budget by 130 million over 9 years, shows me that Peyton allowed him to do so, I think Brown should re-think all that expense, because the number of officers on the street has remained flat during that time, but the backoffice has expanded.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 20, 2012, 10:52:07 AM
Ron - I agree with you on the fact that the JSO could slash waste in its operations and back office areas. I would think the City Council folks on the finance committee would ask, hey, why do you need an HR staff when the City provides one for all the agencies in the city? Why do you need 40 people in IT, when we have a very good IT department in the Hogan building? Logistics, records, the list goes on and on and on. The fact that the Sheriff has raised his budget by 130 million over 9 years, shows me that Peyton allowed him to do so, I think Brown should re-think all that expense, because the number of officers on the street has remained flat during that time, but the backoffice has expanded.
Thanks mtrain... makes sense to question all that back office growth too. These governmental agencies can grow into monsters which will make impossible our city's much needed programs which would, by their existence, decrease the need for a ballooning JSO. BTW, last night, I sent my revised post as above to each city council member and the mayor.
Quote from: peestandingup on July 12, 2012, 02:51:32 AM
Quote from: RockStar on July 12, 2012, 01:49:41 AM
Or we could stop persecuting the populace for the human condition and focus on violent crime...
That accounts for a lot of law enforcement presence in today's society unfortunately. It's sort of set up to justify their existence in a lot of ways. Especially when we're talking about stuff like writing tickets to random drivers for going 10 miles over the speed limit, seat belt fines (that do absolutely nothing but bring in revenue), busting people in that pesky "war on drugs" we've been throwing money at for decades, and other non-violent crimes. Don't forget that America only makes up around 5% of the world's population, but 25% of the overall prison population in the world.
I'm not saying taking away officers is a good thing, when put towards the right things that actually benefit society & aren't just the rackets the system has set in place for itself. There's a LOT of that in this country, and the world in general. Not just law enforcement, but tons of other stuff. The problem is identifying & pinpointing them, looking past the bullshit.
I couldn't agree more. Far too much of law enforcement has been focus on traffic violations. At times they seem like little more than an armed collections agency.
Furthermore I am sure that there is plenty of waste in the system (like there is with any business, especially a government department) that could be eliminated and save at least a few of those jobs. Our Sheriff threatened to use this tactic as a show of his political power and displeasure at the Mayors imposed budget. Much like the military they use fear to get an blank check from the tax payers. I applaud the Mayor. It's our money and he remembers that.
Two problems with this - Our property value has decreased - i.e. we lost money. We raise millage to compensate this year - our values eventually increase (hoping) and the millage rate increase means we pay higher taxes each year that happens. Doing this puts a tap in homeowners pockets for decades not weeks... I can't sustain job loss and higher taxes. So the real question is how much for how long are these jobs worth. There is so much waste in city government there are bound to be common sense cuts that don't affect the police and fire city servants. Raising taxes or millage is not the answer long or short term. especially not in this economy with the highest foreclosure rate in eons. stressing the citizens is like trying to squeeze the last bit of juice out of a rind. unfruitful. I don't agree with Rutherford here in his demand for higher millage, but I think we as citizens need to look at the budgets and follow the money.
Quote from: mtraininjax on July 19, 2012, 11:21:59 PM
All the Council has to do is raise the millage rate so that the property taxes collected in 2012 will be the same in 2013, its a number and they can then peg it and sell it. So even though the rate rises, we pay the same as we did last year, to keep the cops.
Question is, are you willing to pay what you paid this year, next year, for the 300 cops and a safer Jacksonville. Taking them off the streets will not make us safer.
Quote from: venture on August 20, 2012, 03:20:22 PM
I couldn't agree more. Far too much of law enforcement has been focus on traffic violations. At times they seem like little more than an armed collections agency.
Just to throw it out there on this point - if you get a criminal citation (basically a traffic ticket that requires a court appearance) DWLS, DUI, No/Exp Insurance, No/Expired Registration etc. etc. in Duval - the court fees alone are $303.
Driving a motorcycle without the proper endorsement also falls under this catagory. ;)
I don't know what all the acronyms stand for, but here's the breakdown:
LEEA: $5
CCT: $50
LGTF: $60
TNC: $3
SOCIF: $50
AACC: $65
SAIEF: $50
CSTF: $20
The judge actually made the comment when assessing everyone (apporx. 65 people this AM x $303 = $19,695 in 2.5 hours) the court fees, "At least the city didn't raise taxes."
Well, after tonight's City Council vote, one more year's reprieve for the people on the chopping block; and one more year of drug treatment for those who really need it. Maybe in the coming year, we can work together to sort out any number of things that are really important for the future of our city...because most of us plan to be here then, too. It is becoming more and more evident that sitting on the sidelines won't make things better.
If you didn't watch it last night, Jacksonville's program for youth at risk was featured on Beyond Scared Straight on A&E. While you may not agree with all the program components, it has changed most (but not all) of the participants in a positive way. To do nothing, changes nothing.
I heard the CSOs had their last day last week. Does this money allow them to come back?
No, it does not; but it does keep the Community Transition Center open (along with Matrix House, the treatment program) and keeps the agency from having to lay off around 70 or so police officers as well. But the layoff of the CSO's is a sad thing as well; not only did 50+ men and women lose their jobs, we'll all suffer with traffic woes and longer waiting times. It would be interesting to know the actual cost of laying them off; paying them out their leave and paying their unemployment.
Here's an idea:
Copy Waldo, FL's way of raising money, & make the city one big speed trap. Cops could hide behind billboards on the Interstates & other roads leading into town and stop speeders. JSO could keep all the money collected.
OK, Im not really serious - but if they get desperate enough it might actually work. In Waldo the cops drive Lincoln TownCars with the Police Interceptor package ;)
I was disheartened to discover, by way of a letter today from the States Attorney’s Office, that a young black fellow, of about 24 or so, whom I caught stealing two graphic novels from the Laura Street store one art walk night, had spent 34 days in jail because of it. The letter stated basically that he was given “time servedâ€, which was 34 days. I had no idea that this jail duration would happen to the young fellow, and had I known that it would, I would have sought to avoid his arrest.
I felt further saddened because I distinctly remember his eyes as I stood between him and the door. He was about 18†from me, of my height, looking steady at me, seeming to plead with me that I avoid calling the police. He had a helpless look, his eyes begging.
He stated quietly that he used the graphic novels to practice his art. On thinking back, I believe he was sincere. If I had had the presence of mind, I would have simply allowed him to take the books, and asked him to return them when he finished. I would have expressed compassion, avoided confrontation and any idea of hatred, and would have avoided his senseless incarceration for 34 days.
The mechanism through which he was held in jail for 34 days probably revolved around the fact that he had no method of bailing himself out, and had no friends to do so. He simply had to wait for a court date. It was petit theft, but I’m sure that this event will not help him in his quest for future work. If he had a job, he might have lost it over the incarceration. Was he embittered, or did he accept it all with a resolution to avoid theft in the future? Does he hate me, or is he indifferent?
Although it was a lesson about not stealing, it was a harsh lesson, and because he was black, with no money, he endured a greater punishment than most others who might too have been caught.
This kind of thing allows me to express sorrow for all the young black fellows who, because they are black, and because many have had no fathers, mentors, or financial support, do not have the same opportunities for education, jobs, and futures as compared to most other boys in our society.
If I were financially able, I would wish to somehow provide at least a method through which these unfortunate fellows could progress from the bleak futures they currently have, to ones of promise. I suspect that this wish would be realized through actions which provide some kind of education and jobs.
This kind of thing, this senseless court and jail system, is why I have opposed the growing budget for the Jacksonville Sheriff’s Office. We should be using the ever growing JSO funds to attack the fundamental causes of having so many of our young in the jail system, and not to simply build larger and more powerful machines of incarceration. Our overall inclination to avoid the causes, encourages them, perpetuates them, and insures a growing JSO, and a growing court and jail system.
These out of control momentums of misdirected assets, bureaucratic habits, and complacency, along with the senseless and obscenely expensive war on drugs wherein so many lives are ruined because of our failure to realize the similarities between drug use and the alcohol use during the years of prohibition, insures the mediocrity of our society, and its continuing decline. The complacent, the comfortable, the somewhat ignorant, the somewhat stupid, those who stay monetarily fat off of the existing scenario of abuse wherein so many unfortunates in society suffer, should be ashamed of themselves. Where are the machines I occasionally dream about? Where are the guillotines? ;D
Correction. The jail time was 34 days, and not 24. I changed the original post. The letter said "court cost converted to civil judgment, 34 days in County Jail and 34 days time served."
Never heard of 34 days jail time for shop lifting... of course he likely has a history of theft that could be a contributing factor.
Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 31, 2012, 12:18:30 AM
Here's an idea:
Copy Waldo, FL's way of raising money, & make the city one big speed trap. Cops could hide behind billboards on the Interstates & other roads leading into town and stop speeders. JSO could keep all the money collected.
OK, Im not really serious - but if they get desperate enough it might actually work. In Waldo the cops drive Lincoln TownCars with the Police Interceptor package ;)
Sorry, but screw all of those guys. Traffic cops are a mostly worthless bunch of schlubs who in order to sustain their own existence must prey upon middle class folks who are just trying to live their lives, in a forced system that requires them to drive & hence reap everything that goes along with that.
Yes, some stops are justified, but most are simply bullshit & a money making racket. Plucking random people out in standstill traffic for not wearing a seat belt is an example of this. It does nothing for safety, esp considering a traffic cop can't be everywhere at every time. So while they're writing their seat belt ticket to the unlucky guy who just happened to be in front of the cops snout at the time, some idiot across town is driving like a maniac while talking on their cell phones, with not a cop in sight. But that doesn't matter you see. That easy ticket money is where its at. All at $120 a pop. Not bad for 5 minutes of work. You wanna talk safety? How about giving people an alternate choice in transit & not forcing them into a death machine every day of their lives?? I mean, if we're being real about it, then lets be real. But again, that would hurt their bottom line. Can't have that. So the maiming & tickets must continue.
And look, I'm not coming down on all cops, some are amazing & need to be there. Their positions are justified. But there are some who do this kind of thing all day long, every single day. Its a revenue generator, plain & simple. Taxing us all to pay for their worthless employment so they can ride around ticketing all day isn't enough apparently. They gotta get us on both ends. So yeah, those guys need to go.
Quote from: peestandingup on August 31, 2012, 02:02:21 PM
Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 31, 2012, 12:18:30 AM
Here's an idea:
Copy Waldo, FL's way of raising money, & make the city one big speed trap. Cops could hide behind billboards on the Interstates & other roads leading into town and stop speeders. JSO could keep all the money collected.
OK, Im not really serious - but if they get desperate enough it might actually work. In Waldo the cops drive Lincoln TownCars with the Police Interceptor package ;)
Sorry, but screw all of those guys. Traffic cops are a mostly worthless bunch of schlubs who in order to sustain their own existence must prey upon middle class folks who are just trying to live their lives, in a forced system that requires them to drive & hence reap everything that goes along with that.
Yes, some stops are justified, but most are simply bullshit & a money making racket. Plucking random people out in standstill traffic for not wearing a seat belt is an example of this. It does nothing for safety, esp considering a traffic cop can't be everywhere at every time. So while they're writing their seat belt ticket to the unlucky guy who just happened to be in front of the cops snout at the time, some idiot across town is driving like a maniac while talking on their cell phones, with not a cop in sight. But that doesn't matter you see. That easy ticket money is where its at. All at $120 a pop. Not bad for 5 minutes of work. You wanna talk safety? How about giving people an alternate choice in transit & not forcing them into a death machine every day of their lives?? I mean, if we're being real about it, then lets be real. But again, that would hurt their bottom line. Can't have that. So the maiming & tickets must continue.
And look, I'm not coming down on all cops, some are amazing & need to be there. Their positions are justified. But there are some who do this kind of thing all day long, every single day. Its a revenue generator, plain & simple. Taxing us all to pay for their worthless employment so they can ride around ticketing all day isn't enough apparently. They gotta get us on both ends. So yeah, those guys need to go.
rofl... been ticketed lately?...
^ Not lately, just an observation from life really & from moving around. I will say though that FL seems worse for this than any other state I've been to or lived in. They seem to write tickets down here more than doing actual real police work. That's why I won't be shedding any tears if some of that ends, even if it means someone's job ends. Join the party.
Ron,
Could you explain what being black has to do with what happened on the shoplifting arrest? There is no separate procedure for black, white, or any other race. Also, just the fact that the young man was physically arrested indicates some problem in his history. Shoplifters are normally given a Notice to Appear (similar to a traffic citation) unless they have a history of not appearing in court or previous convictions. But I can sympathize with your feelings. Just don't call JSO if you feel that the perpetrator doesn't "deserve" what the system has in store for them. That way you feel better and the people that you feel sorry for can be free to come back to patronize your business.
Pee (and others),
The COJ nor the JSO sets the amount of traffic fines. That is a function of the State government. Only a small portion of the fines go to COJ and I don't believe that any of the fines go to the JSO. (The Police/Fire Pension fund used to receive a small amount, but the city gave that up in negotiations with the State so they could save money elsewhere. Just another screwing of the Police/Fire Pension Fund in the last fifteen years.) Most Officers ride a beat and don't write many traffic citations. I'm sure the traffic unit could be disestablished in today's environment by the Sheriff, but there would probably be more complaints in total because of the perception by many citizens that so many drivers are breaking the law even WITH the traffic unit out there.
The bottom line is that traffic fines do not "pay" for police positions, especially in Jax.
Quote from: NotNow on August 31, 2012, 04:27:29 PM
Ron,
Could you explain what being black has to do with what happened on the shoplifting arrest? There is no separate procedure for black, white, or any other race. Also, just the fact that the young man was physically arrested indicates some problem in his history. Shoplifters are normally given a Notice to Appear (similar to a traffic citation) unless they have a history of not appearing in court or previous convictions. But I can sympathize with your feelings. Just don't call JSO if you feel that the perpetrator doesn't "deserve" what the system has in store for them. That way you feel better and the people that you feel sorry for can be free to come back to patronize your business.
Good question Not Now. Being ignorant as to the reason he spent 34 days in jail, and assuming initially it was only for petit theft, I thought I would convey as much as possible about the event for MJ persons so that perhaps someone could enlighten me as to probable reasons for the 34 days. I’m confident that his blackness had no affect on what happened to him “after†his arrest, but I suggest that even in this post civil rights era, his color, and probable associated home and community environment had a less than positive affect on his life “up to†his arrest.
My initial post was shaped by the idea that it was unfair to have anyone spend 34 days in jail for petit theft. However, recently, a friend suggested that he might have had prior or pending legal issues which caused 34 days in jail, and that the issue might not be as simple as it seemed.
Given my insomnia, and my tendency to contemplate in the middle of the night, I took the opportunity offered by the issue to range a little further than the shoplifting event, and to express my concern about the plight of many of the black children and youths as their growth propels them into what is still, for the most part, a white man’s world.
Slavery has passed into history. And the decades of shameful discrimination against the black people, some of which I witnessed, have disappeared for the most part as a consequence of the civil rights movements. But for anyone to suggest that all is well and good, that there is complete equality of opportunity for the black children and youths as compared to the white youths, is to be blind to the realities of our society. To look askance and to ignore this problem, this unfair societal condition affecting many black children and youths, is to prolong its continued existence.
I think that my concern about this particular fellow was a result of my initial fear that I might have been unfair to him, or at least insensitive to his situation, and that I might have contributed in some way to make more difficult a life which has already been difficult because of conditions beyond his control.
Of course, theft is theft, and cannot be tolerated unless it is committed by the privileged high rollers who can get away with it in the millions of dollars many times over. For stealing eight dollars, this fellow spends time in jail, and most of the high roller thieves, who are the brutal parasites in our society, get another yacht, another airplane, and another home through a theft process that destroys the fundamental structure of our economy which , if not destroyed would allow for this jailed fellow to actually have a better chance to live a normal productive life, perhaps to have an education, a job, and even his own house, and perhaps an automobile.
Quote from: peestandingup on August 31, 2012, 03:38:27 PM
^ Not lately, just an observation from life really & from moving around. I will say though that FL seems worse for this than any other state I've been to or lived in. They seem to write tickets down here more than doing actual real police work. That's why I won't be shedding any tears if some of that ends, even if it means someone's job ends. Join the party.
+1
It does nothing for safety to ticket people for going a few mph over the limit on JTB or 95, which is where these cuts are supposed to hit. Although I'll admit I've had the shit ticketed out of me over the years, often for bogus B.S., so maybe (more like probably) I'm biased. I almost had a published case before I was even admitted to the bar, over a traffic ticket in Flagler county that finally got dismissed on remand after 2 years of fighting it. My rule with myself is if there's even a possibility I was guilty, I just pay it and get it over with. But even then, half of them over the years have been total bullshit. Traffic enforcement has become big business, I don't think that in its present form it does much of anything to make anybody safer. It's mainly a revenue generator. I have to credit Duval though, we toss bogus tickets readily. It's not like that in some other places. Like Flagler.
Quote from: ronchamblin on September 01, 2012, 02:48:01 AM
Of course, theft is theft, and cannot be tolerated unless it is committed by the privileged high rollers who can get away with it in the millions of dollars many times over. For stealing eight dollars, this fellow spends time in jail, and most of the high roller thieves, who are the brutal parasites in our society, get another yacht, another airplane, and another home through a theft process that destroys the fundamental structure of our economy which , if not destroyed would allow for this jailed fellow to actually have a better chance to live a normal productive life, perhaps to have an education, a job, and even his own house, and perhaps an automobile.
Exactly...steal $8 dollars of books (books!) and get 34 days. Steal billions in pension money, tax fraud, stock manipulation for personal gain and you're freer than a bird. What's sad about that scenario is the kid stealing the book probably had shitty parents (victims of the system...where's the incentive to be good?) who didn't give a damn about education. Stealing books is a kids way of saying "I'm curious and I'm willing to get in trouble for it!" (Whether he was stealing the books for that reason, or the thrill, we'll probably never know.) Whereas the highroller thief steals for no other reason than to line his pockets and buy more things. The kid is just trying to survive...the highroller is beyond surviving.
NotNow...are you really so bold as to say blacks and whites are treated the same, have the same opportunities, the same outlets? It would be a laughable question if it weren't so twisted. I know what you'll say: but the procedures against them are the same. No they're not.
And, to be quite frank, I could care less about JSO losing jobs. Good. That's what happens when you move from "protecting and serving" to becoming cogs in the machine. Now, a cop goes to work to write tickets, harass the homeless, torment the poor, punish those who need rehabilitation. When do they serve? How often do we read in the paper they saved someone? Got somewhere just in the nick of time? Sadly, you wouldn't believe the amount of time I see motorists stranded and cops zooming by as if nobody needs a call or a hand. If JSO spent less on multimillion SWAT team nonsense and helicopters and more weaponry and nicer cars, I'm sure they wouldn't need to be laying off people. Let's face it...the police are a bloated part of the machine. Let's trim it down.
Even as an educated white male whose not doing anything wrong, I can't help avoiding police like the plague. I can't even begin to fathom how it feels to be a black, less-than-educated, poor person in this town.
^LOL, it's really amusing hearing a lawyer call other people a "bloated part of the machine".
What Sheriff Rutherford the city council and Mayor seem to be forgetting is the pink elephant in the room? THE PENSION OK Rutherford you saved 90+ jobs this year. But unless major changes are brought to the table on the pension for police and firefighters. This from wokv Updated: 11:26 a.m. Friday, July 27, 2012 | Posted: 5:51 a.m. Friday, July 27, 2012 "The only thing I see happening is pages of the calendar turning and the problem continues to get worse," says Crescimbeni. "Next year, that $150 million could go to $180 million, maybe $200 million. I mean, the forecast for the future is very, very bleak." The pink elephant in the room, you swear it exists or has existed at one point in time, but no one else believes it or have seen it.
Quote from: Tacachale on September 01, 2012, 09:33:44 AM
^LOL, it's really amusing hearing a lawyer call other people a "bloated part of the machine".
They come to us AFTER they get arrested, WTF do we have to do with it? Or are you just pushing whatever you think is a hot-button regardless of how poorly thought out the comment may be?
Quote from: Tacachale on September 01, 2012, 09:33:44 AM
^LOL, it's really amusing hearing a lawyer call other people a "bloated part of the machine".
Lawyers sell a service that is a consequence of basic supply and demand principles....if someone needs a service, they go to an attorney. As Chris pointed out...not too sure attorneys are to blame for that. Have you read the news? Attorneys are having just as many problems post-2008 as anyone else.
Cops are employed at
artificially high numbers because they can....paper pushers, community officers, HR personnel, etc...emphasis on enforcing low end property based crimes vs violent crimes....
So, yeah, I'd call the police force "bloated" and definitely "part of the machine."
Quote from: ben says on September 01, 2012, 12:55:05 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on September 01, 2012, 09:33:44 AM
^LOL, it's really amusing hearing a lawyer call other people a "bloated part of the machine".
Cops are employed at artificially high numbers because they can....paper pushers, community officers, HR personnel, etc...emphasis on enforcing low end property based crimes vs violent crimes....
So, yeah, I'd call the police force "bloated" and definitely "part of the machine."
And that machine requires to constantly be fed. That young man who stole $8 worth of books is a prime example. Having a bad upbringing, a product of shitty education, or just being poor in general. The system likes this, because it sets people up for it. If those people weren't there, it couldn't eat. Its similar to people joining the military (out of financial reasons). Who needs a draft when you've got more poor people & uneducated than you can shake a stick at??
Anyways, it really has nothing to do with "rehabilitated" as much as it is a modern form of the slave trade (blacks & whites, it doesn't matter). Like "Red" said in Shawshank. "It's just a bullshit word. A politician's word, so that young fellas like yourself can wear a suit and a tie and have a job."
So getting cops involved in something like that was probably not the right way to go because it just threw him into it. I'm sure Ron knows this, but he might not have been thinking of it at the time. So I'm not saying Ron was in the wrong for doing what he did.
And no, just FYI for everyone, I'm not saying don't punish people for certain crimes. Just to be conscious of it & learn to separate the bullshit from actual real harmful crimes, taking into consideration we're all human beings & there may be underlying reasons why a person did the things that they did. Not all of them because a person is "bad". And getting them thrown into the system usually does more harm than good in the grand scheme of things.
^Couldn't agree more
What I said was that the procedures for arrest are the same for everyone, and that is true. It appears that you guys have a really negative view of the police and JSO in particular. In reality, most Officers are not involved in traffic calls and write relatively few citations. I know that I only wrote the most outlandish drivers out there and most cops I know do the same.
I wont comment on the assumptions made about the "lives" of blacks or the "bullshit" citations. Personal experiences are just that. I will repeat that if you don't want the police...just don't call them. The police don't write the laws, set the incarceration times, or make or apply fines. They simply enforce the law. As for a "bloated" force, the JSO is waaaayyyyy below the national and state averages for Officers per capita. Just as their pay and pension are well below any other major Florida city. That's the facts, Jack.
Quote from: NotNow on September 01, 2012, 03:34:24 PM
What I said was that the procedures for arrest are the same for everyone, and that is true. It appears that you guys have a really negative view of the police and JSO in particular. In reality, most Officers are not involved in traffic calls and write relatively few citations. I know that I only wrote the most outlandish drivers out there and most cops I know do the same.
I wont comment on the assumptions made about the "lives" of blacks or the "bullshit" citations. Personal experiences are just that. I will repeat that if you don't want the police...just don't call them. The police don't write the laws, set the incarceration times, or make or apply fines. They simply enforce the law. As for a "bloated" force, the JSO is waaaayyyyy below the national and state averages for Officers per capita. Just as their pay and pension are well below any other major Florida city. That's the facts, Jack.
http://www.indeed.com/salary/q-Police-Officer-l-Florida.html http://www1.salary.com/FL/Police-Sergeant-salary.html#JD
Quote from: NotNow on September 01, 2012, 03:34:24 PMI will repeat that if you don't want the police...just don't call them. The police don't write the laws, set the incarceration times, or make or apply fines. They simply enforce the law. As for a "bloated" force, the JSO is waaaayyyyy below the national and state averages for Officers per capita. Just as their pay and pension are well below any other major Florida city. That's the facts, Jack.
Police officers don't even enforce the law. There's enough laws in the book that anyone can be put in jail if the police strictly enforced the laws.
The police's main job is to somehow keep the peace. This peace is broken by the same people they work for. It's an impossibly hard job. Some in the force who can't handle it.
Voters vote for politicians who then create laws which cause people to act in ways like peestandingup describes. Then the voters demand the police take care of the mess that they created because of the laws they created though the politicians they vote for.
When your job involves cleaning other people's messes and then hearing people loudly proclaim on TV about new messes they are going to make, won't that make you a bit crazy?