Found this in the TU today.
http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2012-06-20/story/high-speed-rail-atlanta-jacksonville-feasible-study-says
This would be great for Jacksonville. The article stated it would be many years before this came into fruition. I wonder exactly how many years that would be?
like 10+ years minimum.....and take note of the projected fares.
If it was really going to be high speed (meaning over 120+ mph), I was expecting the fares to be much higher. But, it would be a good thing.
Compared to the prices for hsr here in Korea, that is insanely expensive! If I take the ktx from Gwangju to Seoul, it is 3 hr and costs about $35 during the week and $50 on the weekend. That trip is 219 miles. Jax to Atlanta is 319 miles. Why would it be $150?
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 21, 2012, 10:02:37 AM
like 10+ years minimum.....and take note of the projected fares.
Probably more like 20+ years.
Quote from: justinthered on June 21, 2012, 10:53:14 AM
Compared to the prices for hsr here in Korea, that is insanely expensive! If I take the ktx from Gwangju to Seoul, it is 3 hr and costs about $35 during the week and $50 on the weekend. That trip is 219 miles. Jax to Atlanta is 319 miles. Why would it be $150?
In Japan it is more than that. About $200 to go from Tokyo to Osaka which is think is about that length. A bit more to go from London to Paris too if I remember correctly.
For HSR to Atlanta to work it will need to be cheaper than flying and take less time than driving. If they start adding stops in small towns (i.e. Brunswick) along the route it will increase the travel time to a point where it is not worthwhile to use.
Screw HSR. Can we get some conventional passenger service to Atlanta in the meantime?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
Screw HSR. Can we get some conventional passenger service to Atlanta in the meantime?
+1.
I understand the importance of thinking BIG. But, we will only get there one smaller step at a time.
^^that's more than likely what it would be "higher speed rail" not Maglev trains. Besides Obama Admin are the ones who keep pushing the true high speed rail, I agree better Amtrak service would have been an easier sell and easier to implement.
I think trains are more difficult in the south, but are a necessary step to bringing the south, and separately FL, to the next level.
Taking the train from Chicago to MKE or DC to Phila is a 1-1.5 hour max trip and would take longer using the extremely congested highways and even longer via air to get through those massive airports. At that point Amtrak is more than just a fast and easy connection for the masses, but is also a way to commute (people in DC make that commute to Phila and people in Phila commute to NYC, and vice versa).
Atlanta to Jax is 6 hours by train or by car. Atl to Charlotte is probably 3 hours with a stop in Greenville and/or Athens. Atl to Nashville goes across a mountain range and would probably stop in Chattanooga, thus making that a 3-4 hour trip, and Birmingham is so small as to be nearly irrelevant (but that would be the closest at 1.5 hours).
We're a little more geographically separated down here.
There's doubtfully ever going to be a commuter pattern between Jax and Orlando. You don't live in one for cost savings over the other and then commute. There aren't in particular a lot of economic ties, and both metros are pretty/very small.
Still, I am for it :).
Taking a train from Chicago to Milwaukee would be like taking one from Tampa to Orlando or Miami to West Palm Beach. An Atlanta/Jax route wouldn't be for commuting. It would basically serve as an intercity connection like taking a train from Chicago to Detroit. I personally think this HSR talk is somewhat overboard and the focus should be actually getting something off the ground. It's like we're a toddler and instead of trying to learn how to ride a bike, we're holding out for a Ferrari.
^^^Yes, like regular Amtrak. HSR is a pipe dream. Still, it's a more expensive efficiency/reasoning challenge to build passenger rail in the south than more densely populated "megaregions."
Quote from: carpnter on June 21, 2012, 11:36:42 AM
For HSR to Atlanta to work it will need to be cheaper than flying and take less time than driving. If they start adding stops in small towns (i.e. Brunswick) along the route it will increase the travel time to a point where it is not worthwhile to use.
I don't know about the trains USA, but in Britain flying is almost always cheaper. By far. Which is a big part of the problem - people will almost always fly if it's cheaper and quicker.
Trains are great for commuting, but unfortunately kinda suck for long journeys. I mean, I love them and all (and would try to use them more often), but I'm not going to shell out hundreds of £££ to ride the Eurostar to Paris or Brussels or somewhere when I can get a return flight for £50 - £60 (or even cheaper).
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
^^^Yes, like regular Amtrak. HSR is a pipe dream. Still, it's a more expensive efficiency/reasoning challenge to build passenger rail in the south than more densely populated "megaregions."
Actually, Florida is probably one of the most viable states/megaregions for intercity rail. Amtrak had a study a few years back suggesting this. However, if we're talking about some parts of the deep rural south, yes its more of a challenge than dense urban areas.
I would love it if there was a rail service between Jax-Atlanta. Would be much more convenient than flying or driving.
QuoteATLANTA - Running high-speed, passenger rail lines between Atlanta and Jacksonville, Louisville and Birmingham is economically feasible, according to a consultant's study presented Wednesday to the State Transportation Board.
The Jacksonville line should be built in two phases, first to Savannah, and then to the Northeast Florida city, consultant HNTB recommended in its study. Possible stations along the route would include Griffin, Macon, Savannah and Brunswick. The feasibility study was the first of many long steps in setting the final course of the train routes and securing funding.
The three routes were studied after an earlier study showed the feasibility of a route from Atlanta to Charlotte. That project is now in the stage of estimating the environmental impact of possible paths.
AS USUAL, the writer his quite confused. There will be NO STOP in Brunswick, the city is an island and NOTHING goes through it. The route from Atlanta to Jacksonville via Savannah would be as circuitous as Amtrak's Jax-Miami trains are today, killing any speed advantage.
By far the better routes are:
NS - Jacksonville - Valdosta - Tifton - Macon - Atlanta
or
CSX/NS - Jacksonville - Jesup - Hazelhurst - Macon - Atlanta
in Jesup this route could split for Savannah and Jacksonville.
QuoteConstruction of any of the lines is likely to be many years in the future. But the Obama administration has made high-speed passenger rail a priority and provided funds for exploring routes.
Construction of a dedicated line probably won't happen in our lifetimes, yeah even you tot's, but Southeast High Speed Rail is an incremental project and is already up and running between Charlotte and DC/NYC. Atlanta will be the next step in the advance. There are also plans afoot to send at least one round trip from Raleigh to a terminus in Ashville.
QuoteFares between Atlanta and Jacksonville would range between $119.41 and $152.24. Construction would cost from $5 billion to $16 billion, or $11.5 million to $41 million for each mile. That compared to $54 million per mile as the top range of the estimate on the Atlanta-to-Birmingham route.
Total and complete speculation. Currently the system is being operated by Amtrak and VA/NC DOT, fare's shouldn't be any different then the current ones.
QuoteThe final cost depends on the type of tracks chosen. Sharing existing tracks with freight lines would be the least expensive but could result in train delays. A dedicated, high-speed track would be the costliest option but might draw more riders.
The corridor for high-speed rail the federal government sketched between Atlanta and Jacksonville bypasses Savannah, but the consultants included it to tap more potential riders and to connect to a federal corridor planned along I-95.
At first it WILL share tracks, after upgrades for speed and extra long passing sidings are added to minimize delays. Then they'll add the second track and eventually a dedicated passenger track. I-95? CSX has applied for a grant to greatly expand the capacity on it's mainline north of Jacksonville, enough according to the application to accommodate SEHSR. Likewise the shorter old Seaboard Air Line 'S' route between Jacksonville and Savannah, abandoned between Seals, GA and Riceboro, GA.
QuoteAtlanta and Jacksonville are both planning downtown stations where passengers could switch from the high-speed trains to local transit.
Before sanity took hold in Savannah they actually bettered Jacksonville and demolished a magnificent Union Passenger Terminal.
(http://www.endangereddurham.org/Photos/milburn4.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3378/3592756317_393f8144e4_z.jpg)
Quote"Positive operating ratios indicate an ability to pay down debt services and bonds and can lead to reduced reliance on public-investment subsidies," the consultants wrote. "Additionally, operating surpluses on an annual basis may finances a 'rail maintenance fund,' requiring less investment in future years for capital maintenance costs."
They note that such potential could entice private investors to underwrite part of the project.
walter.jones@morris.com, (404) 589-8424
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2012-06-20/story/high-speed-rail-atlanta-jacksonville-feasible-study-says#ixzz1yStaELCc
These guys are looking for a 'positive operating ratios,' I'd suggest they invest in Greyhound. They only damage the cause of passenger train service with these ridiculous promises of profit.
Too bad this isn't Japan where the rail companies are also real estate companies and accept rail as a loss leader for more profitable TOD.
Ock... I love the images..
Makes me sick that such a building was destroyed :(
QuoteProbably more like 20+ years.
Awesome, we will have this topic to discuss for that period of time! I cannot wait for it! ::)
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 21, 2012, 10:03:29 PM
QuoteProbably more like 20+ years.
Awesome, we will have this topic to discuss for that period of time! I cannot wait for it! ::)
LMAO! ;D
Ock, have you ever known a consultant not to tell there customer what they want to hear.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 21, 2012, 05:46:02 PM
QuoteATLANTA - Running high-speed, passenger rail lines between Atlanta and Jacksonville, Louisville and Birmingham is economically feasible, according to a consultant's study presented Wednesday to the State Transportation Board.
The Jacksonville line should be built in two phases, first to Savannah, and then to the Northeast Florida city, consultant HNTB recommended in its study. Possible stations along the route would include Griffin, Macon, Savannah and Brunswick. The feasibility study was the first of many long steps in setting the final course of the train routes and securing funding.
The three routes were studied after an earlier study showed the feasibility of a route from Atlanta to Charlotte. That project is now in the stage of estimating the environmental impact of possible paths.
AS USUAL, the writer his quite confused. There will be NO STOP in Brunswick, the city is an island and NOTHING goes through it. The route from Atlanta to Jacksonville via Savannah would be as circuitous as Amtrak's Jax-Miami trains are today, killing any speed advantage.
By far the better routes are:
NS - Jacksonville - Valdosta - Tifton - Macon - Atlanta
or
CSX/NS - Jacksonville - Jesup - Hazelhurst - Macon - Atlanta
in Jesup this route could split for Savannah and Jacksonville.
QuoteConstruction of any of the lines is likely to be many years in the future. But the Obama administration has made high-speed passenger rail a priority and provided funds for exploring routes.
Construction of a dedicated line probably won't happen in our lifetimes, yeah even you tot's, but Southeast High Speed Rail is an incremental project and is already up and running between Charlotte and DC/NYC. Atlanta will be the next step in the advance. There are also plans afoot to send at least one round trip from Raleigh to a terminus in Ashville.
QuoteFares between Atlanta and Jacksonville would range between $119.41 and $152.24. Construction would cost from $5 billion to $16 billion, or $11.5 million to $41 million for each mile. That compared to $54 million per mile as the top range of the estimate on the Atlanta-to-Birmingham route.
Total and complete speculation. Currently the system is being operated by Amtrak and VA/NC DOT, fare's shouldn't be any different then the current ones.
QuoteThe final cost depends on the type of tracks chosen. Sharing existing tracks with freight lines would be the least expensive but could result in train delays. A dedicated, high-speed track would be the costliest option but might draw more riders.
The corridor for high-speed rail the federal government sketched between Atlanta and Jacksonville bypasses Savannah, but the consultants included it to tap more potential riders and to connect to a federal corridor planned along I-95.
At first it WILL share tracks, after upgrades for speed and extra long passing sidings are added to minimize delays. Then they'll add the second track and eventually a dedicated passenger track. I-95? CSX has applied for a grant to greatly expand the capacity on it's mainline north of Jacksonville, enough according to the application to accommodate SEHSR. Likewise the shorter old Seaboard Air Line 'S' route between Jacksonville and Savannah, abandoned between Seals, GA and Riceboro, GA.
QuoteAtlanta and Jacksonville are both planning downtown stations where passengers could switch from the high-speed trains to local transit.
Before sanity took hold in Savannah they actually bettered Jacksonville and demolished a magnificent Union Passenger Terminal.
(http://www.endangereddurham.org/Photos/milburn4.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3378/3592756317_393f8144e4_z.jpg)
Quote"Positive operating ratios indicate an ability to pay down debt services and bonds and can lead to reduced reliance on public-investment subsidies," the consultants wrote. "Additionally, operating surpluses on an annual basis may finances a 'rail maintenance fund,' requiring less investment in future years for capital maintenance costs."
They note that such potential could entice private investors to underwrite part of the project.
walter.jones@morris.com, (404) 589-8424
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/georgia/2012-06-20/story/high-speed-rail-atlanta-jacksonville-feasible-study-says#ixzz1yStaELCc
These guys are looking for a 'positive operating ratios,' I'd suggest they invest in Greyhound. They only damage the cause of passenger train service with these ridiculous promises of profit.
Ock, have you ever known a consulant in this situation not tell their customer what they want to hear?
Quote from: Timkin on June 21, 2012, 08:48:30 PM
Ock... I love the images..
Makes me sick that such a building was destroyed :(
Would you believe they wrecked it for a FREEWAY? True!
Quote from: JFman00 on June 21, 2012, 05:51:11 PM
Too bad this isn't Japan where the rail companies are also real estate companies and accept rail as a loss leader for more profitable TOD.
...And while Florida and the Florida EAST Coast moves toward HrSR in Texas, Japan Central Railways is launching HSR.
http://lshsr.com/LSHSR/Welcome.html
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 02:11:45 PM
^^^Yes, like regular Amtrak. HSR is a pipe dream. Still, it's a more expensive efficiency/reasoning challenge to build passenger rail in the south than more densely populated "megaregions."
As these annual ridership samplings suggest, it's not the 'rural south's' fault. Amtrak is controlled from and by Washington politics, and since South Carolina doesn't count as much as Michigan or Pennsylvania, we get whatever is left. Did you know the Florida fleet of trains, back when you could still (barely) call their Florida trains a fleet (The Champion, Silver Meteor, Silver Star, Palmetto, Floridian, Miamian) all other regions of the country were not only into their first generation of new rolling stock, they were getting populated by second generation Amtrak rolling stock. Down here in the good old south they advertised our trains as 'Amtrak's Heritage Fleet,' most of those cars were built in the late 1930's through the very early 50's. Call it what you want, but we're still the nation's red haired - step child.
Greenwood MS - 16,455
Florence SC - 47,344
Greensboro NC - 105,671
Whitefish MT - handled 66,813 as another example of rails strength in rural towns. When the train pull's into Meridian, or Havre, or Whitefish, or Palatka, it represents for a few moments, the international airport that they don't have. It probably means more to the smaller cities then to the larger population area's that have more alternatives.
Jacksonville FL - 70,728
Actually Civil, I know of one... but then I'm not working... ;)
Quote from: JFman00 on June 21, 2012, 05:51:11 PM
Too bad this isn't Japan where the rail companies are also real estate companies and accept rail as a loss leader for more profitable TOD.
There's a lot of creative stuff going on in real estate right now. Don't be too down on American real estate. On a more micro scale, my own company has been a MAJOR contributor to both the High Line in Manhattan (which runs right through one of our largest assets) and the Beltline in Atlanta (which runs by two fairly large assets of ours).
Macquarie also seems to be on the cutting edge of investing in infrastructure as a real estate play. Don't forget that landfills and heavy industrial/energy services are served by heavy infrastructure, often rail, and privatized.
Another emerging trend with heavy rail systems is the privatization of the physical station. MARTA has explored this option, and other systems have, as well. If you're a developer looking to do a major high density TOD and receive tax credits, and a system is yet to be connected, the operator/transit funding agencies seem more open to partnering in order to make it happen. Neither entity in most cases can make it happen on their own.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 21, 2012, 11:46:05 AM
Screw HSR. Can we get some conventional passenger service to Atlanta in the meantime?
AMEN!!!Miami - Jacksonville - Atlanta on the FEC & NS lines.
Wow. Savannah had a beautiful station. Looks like they dont like historical buildings there, either.
Today they have a jim-dandy Amshack on the outskirts of town like we do. Actually their Amshack is a little older. As I recall it was built by the former Seaboard Air Line back in the 60s
Quote from: BackinJax05 on June 22, 2012, 12:22:56 AM
Wow. Savannah had a beautiful station. Looks like they dont like historical buildings there, either.
Today they have a jim-dandy Amshack on the outskirts of town like we do. Actually their Amshack is a little older. As I recall it was built by the former Seaboard Air Line back in the 60s
Gotta love that mid-century Amshack style. All the Stucco and Plate glass in the world wouldn't make one attractive either.
Savannah's station was built to serve the Atlantic Coast Line and the Seaboard Air Line Railroads in 1962. Absolutely NOT an Amshack! Amshack's were a creation of Amtrak which started operations in 1971. Their tilt-up, modular like, cookie cutter appearance, really bad locations, plus the fact they were located in cities where major terminal/stations once served endeared them to the traveling public like a pay toilet in a diarrhea clinic.
Savannah's current Amtrak depot is the mid-century modern way station built by the railroads. It is not unlike St. Augustines modern station (which will serve trains again). The Savannah station makes our Amshack look very bland indeed. The Amshacks were built in: Poinciana, Norfolk, Jacksonville, Cincinnati, Cleveland, St. Louis etc. and most mercifully, are now abandoned.
Savannah screwed up in removing Union Station, but the railroads were begging to get out of it and a long back in movement to access it. It could have been recycled into something else but I-16 'needed' the land.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1156/877015455_db68ea2b20.jpg)
(http://www.movemodern.com/wp-content/uploads/stories/Amtrack/01.jpg)
Savannah is more of an example of what an 'Amshack' should have been.
QuoteThe Savannah station is located to the west of old town Savannah and slightly south and west of the Savannah River. The station consists of a modern brick and concrete terminal building, built in 1962 by the Atlantic Coast Line, with a platform between the tracks. The station was built with funds channeled through the Georgia Ports Authority to the city of Savannah as part of redevelopment. It served the Atlantic Coast Line and Seaboard Air Line until Amtrak took over passenger service in 1971.
The original Savannah Union Station was designed by architect Frank Pierce Milburn and completed in 1902 at a cost of $150,000. It was an example of Spanish Renaissance and Elizabethan styles, the main feature of which was an octagonal rotunda measuring 80 feet in diameter, which served as the general waiting room. Exterior walls were made of pressed brick with granite and terra cotta trimmings. In 1963, the station was demolished to make way for an interstate highway interchange.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 21, 2012, 11:19:19 PM
Actually Civil, I know of one... but then I'm not working... ;)
Then you know what i Mean LOL
Quote from: Timkin on June 22, 2012, 02:11:10 AM
Quote from: BackinJax05 on June 22, 2012, 12:22:56 AM
Wow. Savannah had a beautiful station. Looks like they dont like historical buildings there, either.
Today they have a jim-dandy Amshack on the outskirts of town like we do. Actually their Amshack is a little older. As I recall it was built by the former Seaboard Air Line back in the 60s
Gotta love that mid-century Amshack style. All the Stucco and Plate glass in the world wouldn't make one attractive either.
Dont forget those MODERN terazzo floors :D
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 22, 2012, 10:22:24 AM
Their tilt-up, modular like, cookie cutter appearance, really bad locations, plus the fact they were located in cities where major terminal/stations once served endeared them to the traveling public like a pay toilet in a diarrhea clinic.
ROFLMAO!! Ock you are such a mess !!!! LOL ( no pun intended ) ;)