Yes we used to have a basketball team. Why did we build that big arena? With hockey out and no arena football and very little hope of there ever having a successful basketball team, maybe I am missing something, but the dump that was the old arena maybe should have stayed around just to support one or all of these three sports. Cheaper rent (along with a downtown location) might be the key to success.
SPECIAL THANKS TO AM1460 SPORTS TALK SHOW "INSIDE THE GAME" FOR REPORTING THIS STORY IN DEPTH FIRST. 6-7PM WEEKNIGHTS
ANYBODY ELSE BEEN TO DOLLAR BEER THURSDAYS there is one tomorrow at JAX ICE. 12 OUNCE CANS SERVED BY YOURS TRULY
Quote from: Radio Talk Show Host on January 23, 2008, 10:59:43 PM
Yes we used to have a basketball team. Why did we build that big arena? With hockey out and no arena football and very little hope of there ever having a successful basketball team, maybe I am missing something, but the dump that was the old arena maybe should have stayed around just to support one or all of these three sports. Cheaper rent (along with a downtown location) might be the key to success.
SPECIAL THANKS TO AM1460 SPORTS TALK SHOW "INSIDE THE GAME" FOR REPORTING THIS STORY IN DEPTH FIRST. 6-7PM WEEKNIGHTS
I don't know. I think that the reason why we built a bigger arena was the fact that the teams were not satisfied with locker rooms at the old coliseum and that the floor was 16 feet too short. We'll soon get another team that will be successful someday. 8)
The old arena should have been kept. It could have been converted into a musuem or something that complemented the stadium district. As for the new arena, I believe it was built to help Jacksonville land concerts and events that had been passing the city by.
Quote from: Radio Talk Show Host on January 23, 2008, 10:59:43 PM
Yes we used to have a basketball team. Why did we build that big arena? With hockey out and no arena football and very little hope of there ever having a successful basketball team, maybe I am missing something, but the dump that was the old arena maybe should have stayed around just to support one or all of these three sports. Cheaper rent (along with a downtown location) might be the key to success.
SPECIAL THANKS TO AM1460 SPORTS TALK SHOW "INSIDE THE GAME" FOR REPORTING THIS STORY IN DEPTH FIRST. 6-7PM WEEKNIGHTS
The dimensions of the coliseum were not large enough to support a regulation hockey rink. Also, since building the new Arena, the has hosted the Team USA basketball, the opening round of the NCAA Mens Basketball tournament, regular season college basketball games featuring UF and FSU, WWE and not too mention musical acts that would not have played the old coliseum. And don't forget the extra money brought in by the club seats and skyboxes in the new arena. The coliseum had neither.
I dont think the old arena could have saved the jam, teams like that usually dont last that long...Now I used to like going to hockey games at the new arena
It's more a matter of risk vs return. Until someone decides to do the Wayne Weaver and risk it all to bring in a team that competes in a league worthy of Jacksonville, these teams will continue to come and go. No building is going to save a team when the play-bill is "Tonight only, the Jacksonville Giants vs the Mayberry Rug Rats..." It's not even a matter of "Growing the sport" or "learning the game." Give me Jacksonville Giants vs the Los Angeles Lakers and we have a date with destiny. Our city has been low-balled long enough and I think we're seeing a knee jerk reaction to always limited entertainment dollars.
Ocklawaha
Yeah, the Jam are only a fraction of ill-fated minor-league B-ball franchises to fold in Jax. It seems like alot of things have folded these days. A whole buncha airlines like Frontier, and Skybus, the AAFL(that would've been laughable if it would've started; Watching a buncha Gator, and Nole has-beens like C.Leak do it one more time for the road)
Sad. What is more frustrating though is our local media’s complete lack of interest in these small market sports teams that play here. How can we expect to get bigger teams interested here if we can’t even support the small ones? I guess the Sun get some decent coverage but what about the Barracudas?? They are a good team. They’re going for the championship again. I’ve been to the games at jax Ice and the people there are mostly families looking for some fun and cheap entertainment. Why not try and grow that audience? Now I don’t expect their popularity to be high…but if they got some coverage it might improve. The same goes for the now defunct Jam or any other sport that is here in this city and ignored. It’s ridiculous. A little coverage goes a long way; a franchise cannot survive without it.
I think there is a flaw in these thoughts... I won't go to a game where Jacksonville is forced to play Valdosta or Green Cove Springs on a sports field. This is not to snob up, but I just can't imagine Chicago, Atlanta, Miami pros playing LuLu or Two Egg, Florida. Buy your tickets today for the Two Egg Twister/Jacksonville Jaguar game in August. Naw, put us in pin stripes and let us pick on someone our own size and I'll see you in the park! There is just no evidence that in order to be a success in Jacksonville, you must first be able to sell an inferior sport, game or league. It's kind of like saying in order to enjoy a good steak you have to be able to eat and enjoy doggie deposits.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 12, 2008, 12:28:35 AM
I think there is a flaw in these thoughts... I won't go to a game where Jacksonville is forced to play Valdosta or Green Cove Springs on a sports field. This is not to snob up, but I just can't imagine Chicago, Atlanta, Miami pros playing LuLu or Two Egg, Florida. Buy your tickets today for the Two Egg Twister/Jacksonville Jaguar game in August. Naw, put us in pin stripes and let us pick on someone our own size and I'll see you in the park! There is just no evidence that in order to be a success in Jacksonville, you must first be able to sell an inferior sport, game or league. It's kind of like saying in order to enjoy a good steak you have to be able to eat and enjoy doggie deposits.
I'm going to have to disagree with you here, simply based on the market factors involved with professional sports teams. Check out the 07/08 market ranking comparisons. (http://www.tvjobs.com/cgi-bin/markets/market2.cgi) The most important thing to point out is after Jax on the list (at 49 - also the highest it's been this century), there's only one city with more than one professional sport teams, and that's New Orleans (which a - I think we can all agree is a special case and b - is completely at risk of losing the Hornets simply due to the market realities).
As much as it pains me to say this, the current Jacksonville sports scene reflects precisely what our market ranking indicates - Jacksonville, on the whole, is a minor league market. Not only that, but if memory serves, the one pro team here in town needed to use some strategic tarp placements to cover up some seats in order to generate "sellouts," and only ranked 23 in attendance anyways.
Whether we want to admit it or not, Jacksonville doesn't compare to the cities listed "Chicago, Atlanta, Miami") in market terms. The way the leagues see the media markets, the teams Jacksonville has now has us "...picking on someone our own size."
I will have to disagree with you that Jacksonville is a Minor League town. First you mention the fact that we had to cover up seats to get "sale-outs but failed to mention that at the original stadium size of 73,000 seats it would be the 9th biggest stadium in the league in the 2nd smallest market. You also failed to mention that even with the seats covered up The Jaguars still draw more people than Chicago, Cowboys, steelers and raiders. All more teams with years more history than Jacksonville. Weeky Jaguars radio programs out proform local drive time radio almost 3 to 1 and I dont have the exact figures in front of me right now but local tv ratings for a jaguars game is nearly 19 to 1, compared to a 14-1 for Florida/Georgia game. You now have a season ticket renewal rate of over 80% up from around 72% from last year, which was up from around 68% the year before that. I know all this because my company just signed a mega advertising deal with the Jaguars and we have done extensive market research to determine if the city of jacksonville and jaguars were a viable nfl city and franchise. It was our conclusion that NFL is king in jacksonville and only getting bigger.
I agree with Ock a million times. Someone stated the Arena is TOO BIG??? Really? 16,000 seats is too big?? Since when? They built that place too small. Again Jax leaders thinking small again. The Jacksonville leaders need to travel more and get out of their bubble. Another gripe....superstars are still pacing the market over. Jacksonville built the new Arena, but when you look at the superstars show dates you are still seeing stuff like this...
Philadelphia 4-7
Washington DC 4-10
Charlotte 4-13
Atlanta 4-17
Orlando 4-20
Miami 4-23
I mean what the hell man?!?!?
The NBA could work in Jacksonville...It just takes time to build a strong fan base but it can be built. San Antonio, Utah, Orlando, Sacramento, Portland...how are these markets better then Jacksonville In YOUR opinion?? Oh yea i forgot Oklahoma is getting a team...wow.
Quote from: adamh0903 on April 12, 2008, 12:40:05 PM
I will have to disagree with you that Jacksonville is a Minor League town. First you mention the fact that we had to cover up seats to get "sale-outs but failed to mention that at the original stadium size of 73,000 seats it would be the 9th biggest stadium in the league in the 2nd smallest market.
Honestly, that stat is a giant "so what?" It only indicates one of two things - either the city/league planners screwed up big time in estimating how much of a draw the Jags would be, or that it was designed with the intention of other massive events outside of the Jags (and anyone want to take bets on when the next Super Bowl will be awarded to Jax?).
QuoteYou also failed to mention that even with the seats covered up The Jaguars still draw more people than Chicago, Cowboys, steelers and raiders. All more teams with years more history than Jacksonville.
If you want to focus on the NFL, that's your prerogative. My understanding is that the discussion is having MULTIPLE professional sports teams in a town, which Chicago, Dallas, Pittsburgh, and Oakland/LA all have. We can argue over how much support a given team receives at any given point, but the fact is THOSE markets make economic sense to have multiple teams. Regardless of what Jax has, we can't shake a stick to those markets.
QuoteWeeky Jaguars radio programs out proform local drive time radio almost 3 to 1 and I dont have the exact figures in front of me right now but local tv ratings for a jaguars game is nearly 19 to 1, compared to a 14-1 for Florida/Georgia game. You now have a season ticket renewal rate of over 80% up from around 72% from last year, which was up from around 68% the year before that. I know all this because my company just signed a mega advertising deal with the Jaguars and we have done extensive market research to determine if the city of jacksonville and jaguars were a viable nfl city and franchise. It was our conclusion that NFL is king in jacksonville and only getting bigger.
OK, great...we can generally support 1 sport team for 8 weeks out of a season. Does that support stick with, say, a professional baseball or basketball team in the city? Or on the flip side, does an additional team get the support with the Jags being so dominant?
Quote from: CoolyfettI agree with Ock a million times. Someone stated the Arena is TOO BIG??? Really? 16,000 seats is too big?? Since when? They built that place too small. Again Jax leaders thinking small again. The Jacksonville leaders need to travel more and get out of their bubble. Another gripe....superstars are still pacing the market over. Jacksonville built the new Arena, but when you look at the superstars show dates you are still seeing stuff like this...
Philadelphia 4-7
Washington DC 4-10
Charlotte 4-13
Atlanta 4-17
Orlando 4-20
Miami 4-23
I mean what the hell man?!?!?
These are honestly curiousity questions - what was the last single event to sell out all 16,000 seats? Plus, what was the last SERIES of events that sold out all 16,000 seats?
More importantly, I understand city pride and all, but don't you think it's a little much to compare the Jax market to the #s 4, 8, 9, 16, 19, and 25 markets, when we're sitting at #49? Maybe there's an argument about Charlotte in there...maybe.
QuoteThe NBA could work in Jacksonville...It just takes time to build a strong fan base but it can be built. San Antonio, Utah, Orlando, Sacramento, Portland...how are these markets better then Jacksonville In YOUR opinion?? Oh yea i forgot Oklahoma is getting a team...wow.
Ok, time to play a little game - with the cities you listed, let's count how many sports franchises they have:
San Antonio - 1 (Spurs)
Salt Lake (Utah) - 1 (Jazz)
Orlando - 1 (Magic)
Sacramento - 1 (Kings)
Portland - 1 (Trailblazers)
So how is the Jacksonville market , which is smaller than all of those, going to support a second sport when arguably none of these larger markets CAN support another team? And Oklahoma City? Hey, look...a bigger market WITHOUT a single team.
Listen, don't get me wrong...I enjoy living in Jacksonville (I'm a relatively recent transplant from up north). But let's not kid ourselves - sports leagues and franchises follow the money, which is dictated by all sorts of market factors. Our market just doesn't stack up to the places we'd like to compare to. Money doesn't follow teams, teams follow money. If we want to hand out some sort of blame, throw it at our city leaders who aren't able to come up with something that grows our market to a point of appeal (outside of the natural migration to the Sun Belt that's happening everywhere). But until the city develops more than where it's at currently, it's completely wishful thinking to say we should have or have a right to more pro teams.
QuoteThe NBA could work in Jacksonville...It just takes time to build a strong fan base but it can be built. San Antonio, Utah, Orlando, Sacramento, Portland...how are these markets better then Jacksonville In YOUR opinion?? Oh yea i forgot Oklahoma is getting a team...wow.
Ok, time to play a little game - with the cities you listed, let's count how many sports franchises they have:
San Antonio - 1 (Spurs)
Salt Lake (Utah) - 1 (Jazz)
Orlando - 1 (Magic)
Sacramento - 1 (Kings)
Portland - 1 (Trailblazers)
[/quote]
First just let me say, I think this is a fascinating discussion. I just wanted to add on to this comment about the other 'small market cities.' While I do agree that the 5 cities above only have one 'major' sports franchise, San Antonio has a WNBA team (not sure what that would be classified, but I would say mid-major sport at best), Salt Lake has an Arena Football team (I would classify that as a mid-major sport; it's not huge, but the league has clearly developed a strategy to stick around) as well as an MLS team (mid-major again?), Orlando has an Arena Football team, and Sacramento has a WNBA team.
I do agree that the Jaguars have a solid following in Jacksonville, but it's hard for me to see a sport with more of a "commitment" than 8 Sundays and the occasional Monday doing really well here. Jacksonville is big and, for some, coming downtown can be a pain. Football games on a Sunday are easier because it's not that big of a deal if it takes up your whole day, but getting 12,000-20,000 to come consistently, 41+ times a year....I just don't see that happening here. At least not right now.
Also, is it better to be known as a city with one sports team that the city supports, or a city with multiple sports teams, at least one of which plays home games to a crowd comprised of a large portion of the visiting team's fans (i.e., Kansas City Royals, the Rays in Tampa, Florida Marlins, etc.)?
I would love to have more options when it comes to sporting and music/entertainment events in Jacksonville, and I can maybe see it coming in the future, but at the moment there's at least the
perception that Jacksonville is too small of a market to support these options (ex: http://www.folioweekly.com/folioblog/?p=641). I'll let the people on this site who know far more about these things than I do battle it out as to whether or not it's true that we're too small of a market, but I think that perception alone is enough to keep our options limited for at least the next few years.
Quote from: Clem1029 on April 13, 2008, 01:57:39 AM
So how is the Jacksonville market , which is smaller than all of those, going to support a second sport when arguably none of these larger markets CAN support another team? And Oklahoma City? Hey, look...a bigger market WITHOUT a single team.
Help me out man. Give me the greater than, less than list of markets and what they are based on number wise. Please. I'm curious to know how Salt Lake City & Oklahoma City are bigger markets then Jacksonville.
How do we know those other markets CAN'T support or want another franchise??? Utah was once in New Orleans, Oklahoma was in Seattle, San Antonia was in the ABA. Portland and Orlando are the only true expansion teams. I also forgot about Memphis...
Quote from: Coolyfett on April 13, 2008, 11:27:34 PM
Quote from: Clem1029 on April 13, 2008, 01:57:39 AM
So how is the Jacksonville market , which is smaller than all of those, going to support a second sport when arguably none of these larger markets CAN support another team? And Oklahoma City? Hey, look...a bigger market WITHOUT a single team.
Help me out man. Give me the greater than, less than list of markets and what they are based on number wise. Please. I'm curious to know how Salt Lake City & Oklahoma City are bigger markets then Jacksonville.
How do we know those other markets CAN'T support or want another franchise??? Utah was once in New Orleans, Oklahoma was in Seattle, San Antonia was in the ABA. Portland and Orlando are the only true expansion teams. I also forgot about Memphis...
OK, we'll go with a slightly modified version of the rankings previously provided. (http://www.lostremote.com/2007/08/23/new-nielsen-dma-rankings-released/) Based on that list, SLC is a larger market by 220,000, and OKC is larger by about 21,000. Advantage SLC, but let's be honest, they already have their 1 pro team. OKC, there's an argument that they're at least equivalent markets, but since they have 0 teams and we already have ours, what's the logical argument that we deserve a second before that?
As for the question of why can't the other markets support a second team, that's a fair question. But from my count, there's at least 9 other markets (Memphis, OKC (assuming they get the Sonics), San Antonio, Salt Lake City, Columbus, Charlotte, Portland, Sacramento, Orlando) that are larger than us with only 1 pro team. Which means a significant argument needs to be made that Jax should be tried to support a second team first.
I think its safe to assume that Jacksonville will not be getting a second pro team anytime soon.
a. We're a second tier market that already has a NFL professional franchise.
b. There are several larger second tier markets with one or no professional franchises.
c. None of the four are seriously considering expanding their leagues.
d. We're in a state that already has multiple professional franchises for all four major leagues. For example, we already have two NHL teams, two NBA teams, two MLB teams and Three NFL teams.
We're betting off strengthening our support for the Jags, because several of our peer cities (ex. like San Antonio) would love see them fail locally, because it gives them the chance to win a team through relocation (ex. Oklahoma City vs. Seattle with the NBA's Supersonics).
Agree Lake. To add to what you mentioned about Florida having multiple sports teams. None of the Florida teams outside of the Bucs the last 8-10 years have sold out on a regular basis.
Our two biggest curses are stadium and arena. Our NFL stadium is one of the largest in the America's, but our population isn't! We would do ourselves a huge favor when the time comes to expand facilities to SCALE the stadium and arena to the City.
I think if we had a nice dome or 1/2 covered stadium of some 50,000 seats, our Jaguars would be sold out 10 years in advance. Likewise, if we had an arena or soccer size field big enough to support a pro team but small enough to pay the bills, we would be in those leagues also.
Baseball? Okay we have a great stadium, now how do we get the Yankee's or Cubs to play here? EASY! We create the "HOME OF THE NEGRO LEAGUES", build a hall of fame, an amusement park, and roster a team of volunteer all-star "negro leauge" players from pro teams all around the country. Several times a year, our "Negro League - Jacksonville Red Caps" play the Yankee's or Cubbies in a charity expo game. I've got $$ that seys it will work. GO RED CAPS!
Jacksonville is a great sports town, it just needs some realistic thinking from City Hall.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2008, 10:50:40 AMOur two biggest curses are stadium and arena. Our NFL stadium is one of the largest in the America's, but our population isn't! We would do ourselves a huge favor when the time comes to expand facilities to SCALE the stadium and arena to the City.
I think if we had a nice dome or 1/2 covered stadium of some 50,000 seats, our Jaguars would be sold out 10 years in advance. Likewise, if we had an arena or soccer size field big enough to support a pro team but small enough to pay the bills, we would be in those leagues also.
What about the college games like the Florida-Georgia game and the Gator Bowl? I assume the stadium was constructed to be this large because its used by more than just the NFL.
QuoteBaseball? Okay we have a great stadium, now how do we get the Yankee's or Cubs to play here? EASY! We create the "HOME OF THE NEGRO LEAGUES", build a hall of fame, an amusement park, and roster a team of volunteer all-star "negro leauge" players from pro teams all around the country. Several times a year, our "Negro League - Jacksonville Red Caps" play the Yankee's or Cubbies in a charity expo game. I've got $$ that seys it will work. GO RED CAPS!
Big vision, but what would be the costs and what's the chance that MLB would allow teams to play locally on a regular basis?
QuoteJacksonville is a great sports town, it just needs some realistic thinking from City Hall.
While city hall can make improvements, at some point our market is what it is and giving the size, its only going to support so many things. Multiple major professional sports franchises may not be one of those things for a 1.3 million metro in a state that already has multiple teams within a three to four hour drive.
I think it's a capacity issue. Even Miami wised up and went with a small stadium for the NFL. Better to have fewer seats in a sold-out stadium, and choices for the local sports dollars then to have it all in 80,000 empty seats before a first class team.
My thoughts on Negro League sports are slightly beyond the "idea" stage. I'm working with a few others to see if we can make this a reality. The games would not be regular scheduled NL or AL games but rather along the lines of expo games with hopes of 2 or 3 a year for starters. If we can drum up hte support within the league for college scolarships, or youth centers, I think they will come out of the woodwork to play with us. Our "Negro League" team would really be an all-star roster of volunteers from the majors and perhaps the minors too. It would be a fun game that allows players to relive history and show their ethnic pride. For the teams that allowed themselves to come down and play, there would be incredible good will and public relations and in the midst of all, Jacksonville would win big.
Ocklawaha
Quote from: Ocklawaha on April 14, 2008, 12:24:04 PM
I think it's a capacity issue. Even Miami wised up and went with a small stadium for the NFL. Better to have fewer seats in a sold-out stadium, and choices for the local sports dollars then to have it all in 80,000 empty seats before a first class team.
What about the college games that can fill up an 80,000 seat stadium?
We have shrunk our stadium. Alltel holds 67,000 for a Jaguar Game. Most of them are club seats. In fact, Jacksonville has the fourth lowest blackout number in the league, since club seats don't count towards the blackout number (there are only three cities that have to sell less tickets then us to get them on TV).
Honestly, another top tier pro sports team could be the death of them both. Inevitably, there would be people that leave the Jaguars to get NBA or NHL tickets, which would hurt the other team. Not to mention, with football, there are 8 games, on sundays or monday nights. With any other sports, you will get a bunch of Tuesday or Wednesday night games, that you need to put butts in the seats for, which in this market is very difficult.
If the size of the market is determined by the amount of homes with a tv, maybe wayne weaver should buy a cheap tv for every tv-less home in the area. or, even better, sony could donate 100,000 $100 tvs in exchange for naming rights to the stadium for a couple years. anybody have any idea how many households there are with no tv? and how does nielsen come up with these numbers?