Could we begin a child board under this topic? It would cover problems in all parts of town created by such things as snipe signs (you know - mattresses for sale, buy your junk car, etc.), graffiti, crumbling sidewalks, dead trees in public rights of way, and so on.
I have just learned some very interesting facts about some of these problems and think it could or should make for some interesting dialog.
Count me in.
Snipe signs are getting out of hand in my neighborhood(old Arlington.) Another pet peeve of mine is the junk that the Times Union throws all over the yards and right of ways. These don't get picked up by a lot of folks and wind up getting washed down the storm drains when it rains! How the hell can this not be litter?
If I went around town throwing plastic baggies full of paper on everybody's front lawns, you could bet that JSO would be right behind me. How is the T-U allowed to do this?
To me I enjoy seeing well-placed/frequent billboards with provocative advertising. I like dense corners with billboards on tops of buildings, electronic signs along highways giving life to otherwise dark areas, and murals/banners along blank walls. I like seeing "Now Leasing" or "Condos for Sale xxx-xxx-xxxx" on highrise apartments/condos. Attractive bus stations with advertising and route maps. Advertising walls in subway stations and on college campuses.
To me all of that seems "normal" for cities and lends itself to the intensity of fast-paced urban areas.
Visual Pollution would encompass tacky billboards along "commercial corridors" in Jacksonville such as Atlantic before Southside. The dead landscaping in public rights of way. Weeds and overgrown yards/medians. Cracked cement benches for bus stops. The ghetto looking drive in from the airport. Jax Beach. Roosevelt corridor. The ugly parking garages downtown. The Southbank Riverwalk in its state of disrepair and disregard. The Shipyards site so underutilized. The Klutho/Confederate Park emerald necklace in its state of disrepair/neglect. The new courthouse.
Mr. Bill Brinton and myself have literally opposite and contrasting views as to what visual pollution is.
Simms3, yourself has got to be kidding with some of that.
I wonder if you could stream some movies or live news broadcasts on those new LED billboards. (Closed captioned, of course) That certainly would be provocative.
A few examples of visual pollution:
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRsotOig8KZ3_l6CCA3h4D2Nfw4FLtCGoRTtDKDqlE_iv5mvUkI)
(http://www.google.com/imgres?q=guggenheim&um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS406US406&biw=1024&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=zdvj0d4RfnSPbM:&imgrefurl=http://sheilaheti.tumblr.com/post/6972973932&docid=neLOMhtXalIj1M&imgurl=http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lngaivdFZH1qkbxmpo1_500.jpg&w=480&h=400&ei=m0vjT8C7HJKs8QS26oWGCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=260&vpy=233&dur=134&hovh=205&hovw=246&tx=148&ty=119&sig=100457647598857774381&page=1&tbnh=123&tbnw=147&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0,i:96)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR_WsJh9-bMTWHxU12fASUAZoqLoVWX9QPMyB04oip2aNDANul8)
(http://www.google.com/imgres?q=visual+pollution&start=32&num=10&um=1&hl=en&rlz=1C1GGGE_enUS406US406&biw=1024&bih=643&tbm=isch&tbnid=tefTz8xBmPgzkM:&imgrefurl=http://experiencingtheemirates.blogspot.com/2009/01/greatest-visual-pollution-in-uae.html&docid=RKbC2xWckeEDAM&imgurl=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_S1W3JqHGyUQ/SWNGtgSbv5I/AAAAAAAALL0/iWo1Z6Kp6Tk/s400/IMG_7477.JPG&w=400&h=266&ei=HUzjT__EEoiw8ASlt6WGCA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=708&vpy=4&dur=191&hovh=183&hovw=275&tx=187&ty=90&sig=100457647598857774381&page=3&tbnh=134&tbnw=200&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:32,i:70)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTxixIo__WzClxpMV4lpM1tSC8vjIyzVYYGacADEOjLUTCkSrx_9A)
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcScbl_9xfbKhwNR-7bg4153SQuw2wkLmbG7p-Yp3Ec0y5TC_zlayg)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRikhR1OU7ve2TKFT-nsUHyXuP6yfgNakaJHWCeDhBfbD1_YYnW)
I got a look at the check list that was used by Brinton in the Springfield NVPI (Neighborhood Visual Pollution Inventory?) a couple of weeks ago. Over 100 Springfield residents participated in the inventory BTW.
The things I saw on it were broken sidewalks, rusty fire hydrants, faded and broken parking signs, tree stumps/ dead trees in the right of way, graffiti tags on traffic signal control boxes. It included only items on public property and didn't even have a space for billboards or signs on buildings or anything on private property. It was all stuff that the City should be taking care of.
Good catch and good to hear. I'm referring to a signage bill passed in 1996 or 1997 that he authored or co-sponsored and still stands by. It is the same bill that prevents private advertising on bus stops, thus effectively killing the city's potential to develop a proper bus system, which is a necessary step to building a successful rail system and moving people around the city.
I also think the signage laws governing small businesses downtown are embedded in the same overall bill, as are limitations to electronic billboards throughout the city. The impetus for the bill (and correct me if I'm wrong) was the fugly "Daily Billboard" that started springing up around town (which I never thought was horrible and added to the community, I though).
Bill Brinton and his bill came up last year when the city put out RFPs for downtown bus station designs and controversy blew up over advertising and appearance of the stations.
Because his name is attached to signage in the city, I always just make it a point to bring his name up when discussing "visual blight", advertising and signage.
Quote from: stephendare on June 21, 2012, 12:50:28 PM
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 11:02:35 AM
To me I enjoy seeing well-placed/frequent billboards with provocative advertising. I like dense corners with billboards on tops of buildings, electronic signs along highways giving life to otherwise dark areas, and murals/banners along blank walls. I like seeing "Now Leasing" or "Condos for Sale xxx-xxx-xxxx" on highrise apartments/condos. Attractive bus stations with advertising and route maps. Advertising walls in subway stations and on college campuses.
To me all of that seems "normal" for cities and lends itself to the intensity of fast-paced urban areas.
Visual Pollution would encompass tacky billboards along "commercial corridors" in Jacksonville such as Atlantic before Southside. The dead landscaping in public rights of way. Weeds and overgrown yards/medians. Cracked cement benches for bus stops. The ghetto looking drive in from the airport. Jax Beach. Roosevelt corridor. The ugly parking garages downtown. The Southbank Riverwalk in its state of disrepair and disregard. The Shipyards site so underutilized. The Klutho/Confederate Park emerald necklace in its state of disrepair/neglect. The new courthouse.
Mr. Bill Brinton and myself have literally opposite and contrasting views as to what visual pollution is.
Agreed Simms.
And I will go one further, I think Bill Brinton is seriously abusing my rights to be informed about products, events and programs that are available to me in a visually stimulating and thought provoking way.
I like the moving advertisements and the video news updates on street corners and buildings. I like the colorful murals and painting on buildings that have been abandoned by sorry ass landowners.
I like having something more to look at than the beige prison walls preferred by the "cities must be silent after dark, since they should be more like tombs' crowd.
I couldn't agree more. When is Jacksonville going to grow up? If we want to be a big city, we need to start acting like one. I think Jacksonville's "fear" of signs is grossly overstated, but it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease (and it's the small group of anti-sign zealots who always show up to "represent" the rest of Jacksonville). The origins of this mindset date back to the mid-eighties, when the trailer signs (complete with blinking/chasing lights) were popping up all over town (and next to residential neighborhoods), and there was a billboard every 20 feet along I-10. The problem is that the zealots aren't content with regulating signs . . . they want to eliminate them. IMO, that's not good government, and I'm sure the sign companies won't pack up and leave their investments without being paid just compensation (and, last time I checked, the City did not have a lot of disposable income lying around).
Gator, Simms, and Stephen, in order to enjoy the fast paced urban life you want to live, do you really need a tacky 600 or so square feet sign telling you that Bud Light is great (which it isn’t), or that the “we bare all†place is just a mile down the ‘pike, or that the tele-lawyers have your back or will get you what you deserve, and so on? Are you telling me that in order for this city to grow, we need blinking light signage advertising the upcoming rock or country music concert (the tickets for which are probably already sold out), or that you can get a really great deal at the car dealership down the road (which will make you the same deal as just about every other dealership)?
What exactly is that “provocative advertising†one of you mentioned? The ones for Winn-Dixie or Exxon-Mobil? Is it the enormous golden arches that gets your blood pumping? Or maybe it’s the ones for that church over which Pastor X presides? Or to find out where you can get a mattress cheap â€" or sell a [stolen] car without evidence of ownership?
The next time you need to go to a hospital and the doctor wants to send you to BMC, are you going to say no because you want to go to St. Caring even though that doctor isn’t on staff there? (I really don’t understand why the hospitals advertise that way.) Quick tell me: You’ve just dislocated your shoulder, and you have to call someone to take care of you. Who you gonna call? Those orthopedic doctors who advertise all over the place? Quick, tell me who they are. I have a dollar for you if you answered with the right name without looking it up.
Aren’t the multi-million internet sites enough to get you the information you need to keep your lifestyle?
Y’all seem so in love with signage, that I wonder if you would advocate the City leasing ad space in its parks and playgrounds. Now I ask you: What better way to enhance the atmosphere of a sylvan setting?
In the interest of full disclosure, I’ve just joined City Beautiful Jax, an organization presently chaired by Bill Brinton. I joined because I bought in to the concept that there is too much visual blight in our fair town: graffiti, illegal wire signs all over our roadways, litter, broken up sidewalks, and so on. Do we need that kind of crap to grow up and be a big city, Gator Nation? Not in my book!
There is a difference between broken sidewalks and billboards. First, we need to distinguish the two and figure out what we're really talking about here.
Secondly, a signage ordinance that is "all encompassing" and spans every facet of the city, treats every area the same, and in the most literal sense squashes economic development clearly needs to be broken up and rewritten. Signage is an issue in every city, no doubt, and if there is one overzealous authority in any city...it's Signage. These departments are usually run by people who get off on their power, but these are usually the most unskilled, talentless people in the world, unfortunately (reminds me of Washington legislators).
In Jacksonville, the utmost authority has been granted to a small group of spineless bandits who can do anything from prevent bus stations from being constructed to prevent tactful and thoughtful advertising to prevent small businesses from letting people know they exist.
Provocative advertising might be a campaign in Atlanta right now that features pictures of cute chubby kids with captions that forewarn that chubby leads to obesity or chubby isn't as cute when your kid is a type II diabetic, etc etc. Provocative advertising includes the HIV campaigns. Provocative advertising is a 6 floor tall banner of Calvin Klein models. Provocative advertising includes the shirtless guys who stand outside the Abercrombie store on 5th Ave.
Vibrant corners to me are those corners with old 3-5 floor buildings at a 5 point intersection with billboards and signs on top of each and taller buildings behind them, perhaps with banners hanging from the sides. I have never seen such corners without a lot of foot traffic and I just love all the activity that goes on and all the signs calling out at you as you pass through.
My firm owns One Times Square with the most expensive advertising in the world, so perhaps I'm biased, but I'm also looking forward to Times Square South, which will rise in Atlanta in a few years and feature multifloor LED panels around the base and perhaps a Madame Tussaud's or something along those lines. The area in which it is going in has become a vibrant tourist area...a 24/7 pocket of the city with tons of lit signage and billboards atop buildings, etc.
As you're driving down the Connector (south) towards downtown, you'll see Allen Plaza (where the W Downtown and Ernst & Youg building are), and covering the garage is the world's largest LED display, which features advertising for networks, events, the city, etc etc. It's quite bright, day and night. I think it would give Bill Brinton a heart attack, but honestly would he rather have that or a fugly garage in sight of 320,370 vehicles from around the country at that point on the interstate?
Jacksonville in general is just an ugly cityscape. Of course on the Roosevelt corridor (an ugly one as I have mentioned MANY times), you're going to get billboards for that SOS lounge and this that and the other. Maybe signage along this corridor should be left up to a local board of engaged citizens? Should the same laws governing this area be the same laws governing downtown or Riverside? Or bus stations for that matter?
In Jacksonville especially, since it is 774 square miles and at least as many neighborhoods/personalities, should one law govern all? I hardly think so.
In fact, I know in Atlanta these sorts of things are left up to areas, which we called NPUs. They are run by separate boards and generally overseen by the city. This for 135 square miles, so yea...Jacksonville needs less one size fits all and more local governance. And signage should not be tied in with our public transportation agencies. It's amazing that came to be.