JTA Public Meeting on Downtown Bus Rapid Transit Today
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Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) is headed to downtown Jacksonville. This evening, a public meeting will be held to share the details.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jun-jta-public-meeting-on-downtown-bus-rapid-transit-today
I was one of us who went to the first public meetings where they took "public input." It was a road show about how much we would love it. I could figuratvely (maybe literally) see any opposition and any alternate ideas going in one ear and out the other of the JTA officials that were there. The public input was a joke. The decision had already been made.
This meeting will likely show the almost final design plans....a key thing to look for is how bicycles are treated along the corridor.
Are there any *actual* BRT systems in the US? (dedicated lanes inaccessible to cars, stations resembling rail stations)
Yes, but I think its a stretch to say they resemble rail in anyway. They typically look like bus systems with their own right of way. However, that's not what's being proposed here. What we're getting is similar to Kansas City's MAX BRT system. Buses will share lanes with cars for most of the routes.
Here are a couple of photos of Cleveland's Health Line. Buses run in their own dedicated lanes. It cost around $200 million or $26 million/mile to construct.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Euclid-Corridor-BRT/P1260852/591978212_EJPqY-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Euclid-Corridor-BRT/P1260856/591978538_7AVjT-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/Cleveland-Euclid-Corridor-BRT/P1260861/591978715_Gfd3N-M.jpg)
Here are a few photographs of the Kansas City MAX BRT system. The MAX cost $21 million or $3.5 million per mile to construct. Buses run on existing streets and the stops are more advanced than typical bus stops.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380351/968131004_HanR7-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380450/968122049_Va5B6-M.jpg)
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(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Kansas-City-August-2010/P1380691/968126449_nSATd-M.jpg)
Jacksonville will be getting the Kansas City MAX version of BRT. Here's what a rail station looks like:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-6150-p1130872.JPG)
Completely different animal. My advice to BRT supporters and JTA would be to not try and sell their project as rail or being an alternative to rail. That only sets it up for failure when it struggles to meet the unattainable expectations that come with real rail systems. Instead sell it was reliable bus service. That's something Jacksonville hasn't really had in a long time.
Bold new city of the south!
Yeah, but Lake I've been arguing this point for a while:
What good are they really doing by rebranding some busses and installing their BRT system on what is already the most efficient and used corridor in the city? None. Lip Service. And I'm referring to the Lem Turner route that is by far and away as close as JTA has ever gotten to a reliable, heavily used route.
^There are other improvements that will improve efficiency besides rebranding such as intersection/signal improvements. There will also be ped improvements in some areas.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on June 19, 2012, 09:32:28 AM
Yeah, but Lake I've been arguing this point for a while:
What good are they really doing by rebranding some busses and installing their BRT system on what is already the most efficient and used corridor in the city? None. Lip Service. And I'm referring to the Lem Turner route that is by far and away as close as JTA has ever gotten to a reliable, heavily used route.
Wasn't the Lem Turner route modified a few years ago to reflect the path of the proposed north BRT route? I'd actually be in favor of doing all the remaining proposed BRT routes the same way, in terms of immediate route modification. I'm still of the belief that these BRT corridors can be done significantly cheaper and quicker than waiting for federal BRT dollars. However, this would mean having to live without some of the desired bells and whistles that cause the capital costs to significantly escalate.
Lake, I'm not aware of any significant route changes over the past 2-3 years.
Cline, due to the staggering of bus routes, L7 & L8, the majority of the corridor served, Golfair - Soutel currently runs on 15 minute headtimes. The proposed BRT will allow for 10 minute head times just along Lem Turner with more infrequent stops, so if you don't feel like walking a mile to the nearest BRT stop, your typical 15 minute wait just grew to 30+
Tell me how it 'improves' the most functional corridor they have?
My guess is they'll not consolidate all bus routes along these BRT corridors, so there will still be some duplicate routing, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 19, 2012, 10:35:32 AM
My guess is they'll not consolidate all bus routes along these BRT corridors, so there will still be some duplicate routing, which can be a good or bad thing depending on how you look at it.
Therein lies the problem. I went to some of the workshops, and as I understood it, the L8 will morph in to the new BRT from Rosa Park (at the time, but I think now that's being moved to the fiasco at the PO) to the Wal-Mart at 295/Lem Turner. That route will run on 10-12 minute headways with stops (I'm not going back to look) at Shands, Gateway, Edgewood, Soutel, Dunn and terminating at Wal-Mart - that leaves a lot of space between designated BRT stops that will need to be filled. The L7 will have to alter it's route to cover Lem Turner from Soutel to 295 which will increase an already long 30 minute headway to closer to 50.
This proposal doesn't make sense on this corridor. Period. IMO, it would seem that it could replace the WS-2, cutting down those headways from 50 minutes to under 25, using the limited, designated stops with regular routes that already go through the area to feed into it.
Outbound - Kent Campus, Blanding/San Juan, Blanding/103rd, Blanding/Collins, OP Mall
There is tremendous potential for that route (DT to OP) between the X4 (runs 4 busses daily, 2 morning, 2 afternoon - doesn't reach any main hub SMH) and the WS-2, but in order to capture more riders, they have to run more frequently than 50 minutes.
Cell phone pics from the workshop. I'll post the full high resolution graphics and maps in upcoming days.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-jjbFXHm/0/M/IMG20120619174944-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-62vZVRN/0/M/IMG20120619174956-M.jpg)
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(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-xq5k4gw/0/M/IMG20120619175230-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-WZ57Srg/0/M/IMG20120619175237-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-NzL8XHx/0/M/IMG20120619175253-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-FptDvzm/0/M/IMG20120619175246-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-PqQZhKW/0/M/IMG20120619175301-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-DPs6nD9/0/M/IMG20120619175308-M.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-tLZsZbv/0/M/IMG20120619180908-600x1000.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Transit/JTA-Downtown-BRT-Plans/i-5XzwqST/0/M/IMG20120619181044-600x1000.jpg)
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What I think of when I hear BRT:
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_xec1BqwW1P8/TU1r7HMRGNI/AAAAAAAAAKo/UOBpsl0SUUU/s1600/BRT.jpg)
(http://www.lightrailnow.org/images02/bog-bus-transmilenio-bus-passing-stn-pax-ohd-20081200-cameo_Absolut-Colombia.jpg)
(http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/05/24/008303.2-lg.jpg)
This new proposal just seems like a normal bus system.
^That type of BRT (dedicated busways) cost more than rail to construct. Yes, this form of BRT is basically more or less, reliable bus service.
It is the frequency and stop location that will make or break this system. I don't think it matters that much how fancy the stops are, or how isolated the travel lane is. If the stops are placed to serve areas of higher density (residential or commercial/office), they aren't too close so as to slow the system down and it runs at a frequency faster than 15 minutes, people will ride it.
What we likely won't get is the development boost that comes from having a fixed system such as commuter rail. Developers aren't going to invest in something that can be easily changed or closed.
I'm not going to spend much time opposing the BRT, but I do think it is an opportunity missed. With a stronger vision and leadership, I feel that we could have had a better system. It appears that they chose the path of least resistance, which in the end will bring less reward.
^I'd say we were pretty successful in our BRT. This is the kind of stuff JTA was looking at five years ago:
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-95-north-graphic.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-graphic1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-graphic1.jpg)
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/brt/other_cities/JTA-D.jpg)
Starting off as a band of misfits, we successfully illustrated that the previous BRT proposal would cost taxpayers +$1 billion, that the Adams Street bus mall would be a negative on downtown, and that other modes like commuter rail and streetcar should be incorporated into Jacksonville's overall transportation plan, along with modified BRT routes.
The only thing I really wish would change with this BRT proposal is the inclusion of bicycle lanes on Jefferson and Broad Streets. JTA is going to rebuild both of these streets (a huge plus, imo). However, rebuilding should mean finding a way to include a 4' bicycle lane on each one. This would benefit BRT and overall bicycle connectivity through the urban core. Without including them, we're basically severing the best multimodal route connecting the Southbank with downtown and neighborhoods north of it.
I agree - you guys did a great job in getting the original proposal scaled back to a manageable level!
Hopefully, it won't be too long before we can get the commuter rail system up and running.
We cut the head off but the snake is still moving!
Is your definition of the snake BRT in general?
Quote from: thelakelander on June 20, 2012, 12:21:17 PM
Is your definition of the snake BRT in general?
No, but it certainly would be when the BRT is planned to parallel the route's of our future commuter rail.
BRT, has higher life-cycle costs then streetcar and most light-rail. Vehicles last less then half as long before they must be replaced. Road's under heavy loads will see an approx. resurfacing cycle of about 10 years where railroad track will last 5x longer.
BRT, however does have some built in usable properties, even in it's heaviest incarnation. Imagine a highly congested downtown laid out like our ours with 8 rail lines converging on the city center. If those were all light-rail or streetcar, a network would have to be constructed downtown to handle such a large amount of traffic. If a city went with 8 dedicated busways from the suburbs to the edge of downtown, nothing has to be constructed in the core because the streets are already there. The BRT line simply rolls down the regular downtown streets then onto the dedicated busway as it leaves downtown.
So BRT can offer some answers here, immediately roads like Beach, Atlantic, JTB, Lem Turner, Post - Normandy, San Jose and Blanding come to mind immediately. A simple BRT with some of the features of a more expensive system, might actually give some people an alternative to the daily traffic wars. Likewise where rail right-of-way already exists, it is foolish to blow money on duplication, duplication of rail, duplication of Skyway and THIS is where JTA consistently fails with it's BRT schemes. We shouldn't embrace one mode without the complimentary support of the other.
For what it's worth, this is why I said I'd spend MORE then JTA has planned to make the BRT effective. Let their planners go to work finding a way to get those buses off the Acosta and OVER the railroad to Prudential Drive Westbound, hence south on Palm, and east on Gary and back over the railroad to King Street. Once this rather fancy system of two busway over or underpasses were constructed and once the Overland Bridge got the busway's inserted on either side, you'd have a lasting solution for some 10,000+ workers on the south bank. A alternatives analysis would have to be conducted to see if the Skyway could make the same basic fishhook more economically, in which case you run the BRT NON-STOP under the Skyway to King Street, then assume the BRT route from there.
My beef with the BRT snake as it is currently slithering around lays about 75% with the south side line, which is highly duplicating and will quickly become redundant. One would be pretty safe in saying the entire route is in the wrong place from the Acosta southward. The 25% that I disagree with the north route is in the stupidity of missing Pearl. Again another 'OCKLAEXPENSE' that they don't currently have in the plan would call for a short, parallel busway/rail corridor from Main to Moncrief along the old 'S' and 'NS' right-of-ways. The short busway could be used to shift the buses from Shand's along Boulevard to Pearl Street. Pearl is one of the original arterial streetcar lines and has infrastructure that would contribute to ridership in a much larger way then Boulevard does north of the hospital.