Jacksonville will be getting toll lanes for the first time in over a generation in 2016 or 2017. But the new tolls will look nothing like what voters got rid of in 1989.
http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-06-14/story/toll-roads-returning-jacksonville-2017
It's just $200 million. Imagine the stink, fuss and cries of it not being able to pay for itself if we were talking about mass transit.
(http://jax-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/TollLanesOn295.jpg)
Quote from: thelakelander on June 14, 2012, 02:01:30 PM
It's just $200 million. Imagine the stink, fuss and cries of it not being able to pay for itself if we were talking about mass transit.
(http://jax-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/story_slideshow_thumb/TollLanesOn295.jpg)
Excellent point!
Quote from: 02roadking on June 14, 2012, 01:59:51 PM
Jacksonville will be getting toll lanes for the first time in over a generation in 2016 or 2017. But the new tolls will look nothing like what voters got rid of in 1989.
http://jacksonville.com/news/florida/2012-06-14/story/toll-roads-returning-jacksonville-2017
This I can live with before I read the story I thought I was having a Heart attack? Now if these toll roads were going at the base of the Hart, Trout and the Mathews Bridge. Then I would have been ticked off!
They need to add them in the stretch of highway from Butler to Dames Point, especially from Dames Point to Beach Blvd. That area has more congestion than the stretch from Butler to 9B.
Reason #1210 to avoid the suburbs: toll roads. ;D
I was at the meeting today...Larry Hannan jumped the gun a bit.
These roads were already programmed for widening.....but the new FDOT policy is that all new capacity on interstate facilities will be tolled.
Two thoughts:
1. Toll revenues on managed lane projects generally DO NOT pay for construction....only the maintenance and operation
2. FDOT is now studying each of these segments to see if they are candidates for variable pricing (tolls)....what happens if the studies say that toll revenues will be too little?
Quote from: carpnter on June 14, 2012, 02:20:40 PM
They need to add them in the stretch of highway from Butler to Dames Point, especially from Dames Point to Beach Blvd. That area has more congestion than the stretch from Butler to 9B.
Butler to 9B is because of the increased traffic caused by building 9B...and as I said above, construction was already programmed.
Luckily I don't think I'll ever run into one! Too far away from the core.
So two lanes (one in each direction) among each of those separate lengths of Beltway will be tolled.
One lane each direction.
This is entirely my uneducated opinion, but I can't see these getting used very much and raising much revenue. If I'm driving the Beltway, and I've got 4 lanes to choose from, and three are 'free' (I know they're not 'free', but let's not digress), I'm sure as sh*t going to use the ones I don't have to pay (more) for.
I'd think a LOT of people would adopt that same mentality. Thus, I can't fathom the single toll lanes being used much at all.
Am I way out on this?
Perhaps the hope is that traffic on the other lanes will eventually come to a standstill and that you'll pay a toll to avoid the congestion.
I drive from Merrill to Phillips every day and I'd probably pay just to not get stuck in traffic. The less time I have to spend on the road the better.
The construction sounds similar to the HOV lanes in the Norfolk VA. metro area in the 1990's. However, they used these to encourage carpooling, and there was no toll.
For those wishing to pay for the convenience, toll lanes can be rewarding. Monday we were on our way back from North Carolina and got caught in traffic on I-585 outside Atlanta. It seems a semi got tangled up with a couple of cars and the right 2 lanes were blocked. We were in a 5 mile long stop and go back up that added almost 30 minutes to our trip. The left lane was a toll lane (Peach Pass) and those lucky folks were zipping by at 70+. We use our Sun Pass going to central and south Fla and I gotta tell ya it's a nice option for the occasional trip. I especially like zipping by Orlando and avoiding the I-4 parlking lot.
LOL, at people thinking managed lanes will turn a profit. People.....like public schools, libraries, police, fire, mass transit, ROADS DON'T MAKE MONEY! The reason FDOT is plastering lexus lanes across the state is because they can't afford to build them the way they used too. By charging a toll for new capital projects, it simply means some of these projects won't be as much as in the red as they would if there were no toll.
So we're going to blow a few hundred million so a few impatient people can get to work 5 minutes faster then everyone else... and it will NEVER, EVER, MAKE MONEY!
Gee, Larry was all over a rail system because everyone knows:
QuoteAssuming the Skyway continues to run deficits of about $4 million a year, that would be an additional $100 million of taxpayers’ money gone away. Larry Hannan
Constructing a 90-mile commuter rail system on existing railroad tracks in Northeast Florida would cost about $622 million. Commuter rail would also be a money loser, like most public transportation systems in the United States. Larry Hannan
JTA is now examining the three lines to determine which one would be built first by estimating which one would have the highest ridership. The total cost of the project was estimated at $622 million, but it wouldn't cost that much if only one of the three lines is constructed. Larry Hannan
The St. Johns River Ferry will never be profitable. Neither will the Jacksonville Transportation Authority bus system nor the downtown Skyway. Larry Hannan
This can safely be said because no major public transit system in America makes money. Transportation experts can't name a single major transit system that is a moneymaker in this country. Larry Hannan
http://www.youtube.com/v/GGUDDw8lGF0?version=3&hl=en_US
Sharp eyes will note that the FREEway in this flick has tolled 'express lanes.' Look's like the Light Rail sort of blows it away...
QuoteThe toll lanes are fair because people don’t have to use them. Bill Bishop
The toll lanes would help with economic development. Jacksonville Transportation Authority Chairman, Edward Burr
The revenue will go toward maintaining I-295 and other roads in Northeast Florida, (FDOT) Bennett said.
Ladies and Gentlemen, we are in the presence of the last colony of extant Homo Floresiensis on the face of the earth. OCKLAWAHA
Now that was funny! WTF?
Quote from: ben says on June 14, 2012, 04:54:12 PM
Luckily I don't think I'll ever run into one! Too far away from the core.
don't count on that...any widening of I-95 or I-10 will also be tolled....and FDOT is studying feasibility of I-95 from Intl. Golf Pkwy to new Atlantic interchange
The comments on the TU site, WOKV facebook page are a trip. You would think it was the end of the world. I know when they converted the HOV to HOT lanes in Gwinnett County (Atlanta) along I-85, there were the same kind of reactions from the public up there, so it isn't just a Jax thing.
"So we're going to blow a few hundred million so a few impatient people can get to work 5 minutes faster then everyone else... and it will NEVER, EVER, MAKE MONEY!"
Yes! They should just make a light rail or a commuter rail where the toll lanes are going to be located! They would move a lot more people!
Could this be a backdoor to the bus lanes that they want?
Get those SunPasses ready!
I thought the tolls ended in, I believe, '89!
They will be bus lanes, commuter express buses can use them for free.
Quote from: fsujax on June 15, 2012, 07:57:35 AM
I know when they converted the HOV to HOT lanes in Gwinnett County (Atlanta) along I-85, there were the same kind of reactions from the public up there, so it isn't just a Jax thing.
Interesting thing happened there....the HOV lane was 2+ occupants...when converted to an HOT lane, they went to 3+ occupants....that, combined with what seemed to be a high toll led to the lane not being used and congestion on the general purpose lanes being worse.
That led to a call from Gov. Deal to FHWA getting permission to allow HOV 2+ to use the HOT lanes for free....and a reduction in the tolls....and now they've reached a comfortable balance for all lanes.
Quote from: fsujax on June 15, 2012, 08:36:13 AM
They will be bus lanes, commuter express buses can use them for free.
maybe
^^you must know something I don't.
Quote from: fsujax on June 15, 2012, 08:39:06 AM
^^you must know something I don't.
not really...just that the studies aren't done yet...I'm not sure all of these will be deemed feasible as toll lanes...it seems possible that the extra lanes on I-295 from Heckscher to I-95 could be truck only lanes.
FDOT seems lazy to me, why not just raise the gas tax, and penalize all who purchase fuel? We need fuel, so why not continue with the tax? This plan for 295 will be for the people who live in that area, as the tourists and bypass people will still use 295 west, so those of you in OP and US17, it will not get any better, only worse.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 15, 2012, 09:56:44 AM
FDOT seems lazy to me, why not just raise the gas tax, and penalize all who purchase fuel? We need fuel, so why not continue with the tax? This plan for 295 will be for the people who live in that area, as the tourists and bypass people will still use 295 west, so those of you in OP and US17, it will not get any better, only worse.
Yes, b/c raising the gas tax is totally and politcally feasible ::)
I understand FDOT has been talking about congestion pricing on this new outer beltway boondoggle. An interesting study here:
http://usj.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/09/10/0042098011417017.abstract (http://usj.sagepub.com/content/early/2011/09/10/0042098011417017.abstract)
i say we just continue to let our infrastructure crumble. I sometimes wonder what happend to the can do attitude of the generations before us. The U.S. used to build the biggest buildings, the largest dams, the mightest bridges, etc, etc. now God forbid we spend a dime doing any of that or even maintaining it.
Quote from: mtraininjax on June 15, 2012, 09:56:44 AM
This plan for 295 will be for the people who live in that area, as the tourists and bypass people will still use 295 west, so those of you in OP and US17, it will not get any better, only worse.
umm...did you not see that the first toll lanes will be on 295 west (from I-95 to the bridge)?
Quote from: fsujax on June 15, 2012, 04:19:26 PM
i say we just continue to let our infrastructure crumble. I sometimes wonder what happend to the can do attitude of the generations before us. The U.S. used to build the biggest buildings, the largest dams, the mightest bridges, etc, etc. now God forbid we spend a dime doing any of that or even maintaining it.
Politicians are too busy using our tax dollars to buy votes.
Quote from: carpnter on June 16, 2012, 09:36:18 PM
Quote from: fsujax on June 15, 2012, 04:19:26 PM
i say we just continue to let our infrastructure crumble. I sometimes wonder what happend to the can do attitude of the generations before us. The U.S. used to build the biggest buildings, the largest dams, the mightest bridges, etc, etc. now God forbid we spend a dime doing any of that or even maintaining it.
Politicians are too busy using our tax dollars to buy votes.
yep, that's it....our lack of infrastructure funding couldn't have anything to do with the gas tax being stuck at $0.19 a gallon since 1993 with no adjustment for inflation.