Round 2.
Welcome back and thank you. We are back at City Hall today for another hearing amongst the RCD/PHS committee members about the bill 2012-296. Several more in attendance today then there were yesterday. The numbers between sides appears to be a little more even between the blue stickers and the red stickers. Yesterday, there was a sea of sleepy faces with bored or blank expressions. Today, the room is a low hum or whispers taking place, lots of walking around, and A LOT OF BLUE CARDS!! Bill Gulliford is the chair of this particular committee. He has made it clear he wants clear, concise, and objective comments. NO one should stand up to just state which side they are on or give a personal account. Despite his warnings, the line of people to hand in their cards is long and growing. Gulliford suggested he will not put a time limit on this meeting, as there is not another meeting after this one like there was yesterday (lucky for Bishop), but he assumes we will be out of her around 3:30-4. While it is admirable of Gulliford to take a stand saying it is of the utmost importance to listen to the public, making sure to pat himself on the back that it was his option to allow public comments, I highly doubt he knows what he has gotten himself into; unless of course, he meant 3am :-)
CC President Joost is not in attendance, CCM Jones is not in attendance (member pushing the bill), Daniels is not in attendance for now. From where I sit I do not see Crescimbeni (firecracker from yesterday), and E. Denise Lee is not here again today (a member of the council I know several were wanting to hear from).
Unfortunately, we were dismissed yesterday after only hearing from one side, and the conversation was just gaining momentum; hopefully, today we will see a different show.
Recreation, Community Development, Public Health & Safety Committee
Matters relating to recreation; public housing; economic development; affordable housing; farms; forestry; fish and game; parks; zoo; international trade and travel issues; Sister Cities program; Jacksonville Public Library; Parks, Recreation and Entertainment Department; Agriculture Department; Jacksonville Economic Development Commission; Jacksonville Housing Commission; Jacksonville Housing Authority; Community Services Department; ad valorem property tax exemptions; historic preservation; community revitalization; Waterways Commission; vessels for hire; Urban Services Districts; the Neighborhoods Department; education and schools; Duval County School Board; literacy issues; higher education institutions and issues; military bases; personnel and affairs; base realignment and closure (BRAC) issues; veterans' issues; Jacksonville Children's Commission; child services; public safety; motor vehicle inspections; collections; crime victim services; Sheriff's Office; Fire and Rescue Department; emergency preparedness and civil defenses; hospitals; Health Department; human services; welfare; health; and all related subjects.
The members are:
Bill Gulliford - Chair
Reginald Brown - Vice Chair-absent
Lori Boyer
Doyle Carter
Kimberly Daniels-absent and possible rejoining
Robin Lumb
Matt Schellenberg
With this lot, it could be a pretty calm afternoon.
That was fast. We are already on the 296 bill.
After receiving the stack of blue cards, Gulliford has corrected his statement that we will not get through entire stack. He offered the floor to previous elected city officials first, all stating they are here for the record and will give other the opportunity.
First up, "this ordinance strives to protect a group that clearly does not need protecting." The HR commission is composed of people who are unelected, unaccountable and tax-payer funded. The HRC may give an individual the right to sue in court. The HRC can command payment for anywhere from 5-50k depending on the HR complaint.
UNF's study about "How should people be treated equally in the work place?" Based off gender:95% age 85% and sexual orientation 86%. Schellenberg points out sexual orientation in the study was tallied to be of more importance for equality than someones age.
Daniels in the house. Out the gate, Daniels calls upon a member of the Human Rights commission. Just a reminder, yesterday Daniels proposed someone else needs to deal with these cases not the HRC because she was uncomfortable with the commission. Again, Daniels is worried about a religious exemption. Daniels points out she has been waiting 12 days to receive answers for her questions about religious/gender/race case statistics.
HRC apologizes if someone feels the HRC has not kept up. States the HRC keeps up with the race, religious, age, gender, all information. Gulliford attempts to shut down the argument. Daniels has the final word stating, She is very dissatisfied.
Warren Jones is also here now.
What can the HRC do for these aggrievances??
Depending on which section of the ordinance code is considered whether it is employment or housing, any grievance for sexual orientation will only go through the stage of conciliation with the HRC, in other words the stage where the two sides come to an agreement between themselves. Depending on the final wording if the bill is passed, will depend on whether the HRC has the legal right to compel individuals to participate in conciliation, as it stands now the HRC can only invite or request the participation. If they refuse in employment (the most aggressive), then it is up to the complainant to close the case in the HRC and then they must request permission to sue. If not, the HRC files for a hearing, and then it could progress as far as the circuit court.
Lumb makes the first legit request, he asks Lumb to come up with all the scenarios and the path the HRC would take to resolve the issues. He asked for it in writing so that everyone may see what would actually change with the new bill and the power the HRC has to see justice served, and if they do not choices the complainant has next.
Halverson: Chair of Haskell: Stand in support of 296. Claims our ability to attract top candidates is affected due to Jacksonville's HRO:
1. experiences unable to attract top candidates to the city with specific reference to sexual orientation
2. current employees (younger gay and lesbians) find it uncomfortable to live here.
3. younger employees view Jacksonville's job market as unfair due to these inequalities.
Yarborough claims Forbes magazine ranked Jacksonville #3 out of 10 for content job workers, and a increase in job growth. (I wonder how many of those questioned on there level of contentedness are Jacksonville born and raised?)
Schellenberg asks Halverson, Why would web.com bring their business from New York City to Jacksonville, FL if it was not a good city to expand?? (The same reason British Airways choose Jacksonville over Montreal for their North American call center. It was cheaper).
This is a first: Schellenberg is stating that the people come to Jacksonville and choose not to stay in Jacksonville based a company, community, or lack or ordinance are in fact discriminating against Jacksonville without getting to know the people or the city.
Lumb asks why Tallahassee never took up the legislation presented for a statewide law that would ban discrimination based on sexual orientation. Halverson states, the Chamber of Commerce, which he was a member of, decided it was better decided on a local level. Lumb also states the reason this bill has never passed before is because Jax is a consolidated city government.
Thanks for the updates AshleyLauren! Very useful.
Carlucci: It boils down to this, there is a section of our community that is impeded.
Lumb disagrees saying it is probably not a problem involving homophobia or a lack of ordinances for discrimination. He disagrees, from his experience it is not but he believes it probably an issue of different political opinions and such large forms of diversity.
Side note: If the manner in which the city council members speak to those at the podium is indicative of their personal characteristics/manners, then we have some things to work on in this city.
Gulliford is allowing only 25 more minutes for public comment. To be fair he has split the pile between for and against and will call from each, and the speaker has three minutes.
Opposing: Claims Jacksonville is not discriminatory towards anyone.
Supporting: Claims 32 different occurrences towards her since she moved here in 1990. Including, bomb threats, attacks, slashing of tires while on UNF campus, police stating, "what did she expect your a faggot?", among other things. Points out white heterosexual females and males of a certain status within the city have clearly never been been treated in such a way.
Don Redman asks, "Do you feel you are a male or a female?" Points out people are acting this way towards her because of her behavior. Ms. Mead makes a clear point it cannot be because of her behavior because she is not acting with "faggot behavior" when these occurences happen. Lumb comes to the rescue, apologizing with Don Redman's line of questioning and guaranteeing that no ones behavior in this city should bring upon that type of attack without being legally dealt with.
Opposing: The lawyer from Orlando is back. Anyone else find it odd the lawyer has been given the opportunity to speak at every meeting?
Tells CC Members if this passes then their vote will eventually be part of promoting changes made for marriage laws at a state level.
Last speaker. Supporter: 21 states have implemented state wide ordinance to protect sexual orientation. Speaker presents Council members with a list of cities in Florida that have passed such a bill and the dates implemented. The top on the list are larger cities and have done so between 12-17 years ago.
Bill Gulliford comments he has attempted to make this process fair to both sides. We will pick up where we have left off next time.
***Bill Gulliford allows Kim Daniels to speak at her personal request. When the floor was given to her, without hesitation, about 40-50 stood up and walked out.***
Daniels tells the room how upset she is because of the mockery towards the Bible made during the hearings. Makes clear she is also discriminated, her life is threatened constantly, reminds us religion is a protected class, and that we should give respect if you want it. And she was upset because at the last CC meeting it was anti-god.
Jones suggests the public is brought down on one day that is not a committee day and it is unfair and inconsiderate to both sides. He concludes, We need to stop making this a religious issue, it is not it's about discrimination and rights.
MEETING ADJOURNED.
So in essence, I still need to send Daniels those tin foil hats and crucifixes, huh?
Quote from: RiversideLoki on June 05, 2012, 04:03:47 PM
So in essence, I still need to send Daniels those tin foil hats and crucifixes, huh?
Looks that way...there are a few more items she probably could use but I will leave it at that.
Great summary Ashley. Was an interesting meeting, and I hope Bill Bishop - chair of Rules - will agree with Gulliford to hold a joint meeting. I sat in a couple places, mostly surrounded by the "No" group. They were polite and respectful of those speaking.
One thing Ashley didn't mention, after applause for first speaker (former Council Chair Ginger Soud), Gulliford warned the crowd that if there is another outburst or applause, he will shut down the public testimony. It worked, everyone kept quiet (except for some murmuring during Daniels' and Redman's excursions into ... wherever the hell they go) for the rest of the speakers. They did use a lot of time questioning Soud, Halvorson, and the lady from HRC.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 05, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
Great summary Ashley. Was an interesting meeting, and I hope Bill Bishop - chair of Rules - will agree with Gulliford to hold a joint meeting. I sat in a couple places, mostly surrounded by the "No" group. They were polite and respectful of those speaking.
One thing Ashley didn't mention, after applause for first speaker (former Council Chair Ginger Soud), Gulliford warned the crowd that if there is another outburst or applause, he will shut down the public testimony. It worked, everyone kept quiet (except for some murmuring during Daniels' and Redman's excursions into ... wherever the hell they go) for the rest of the speakers. They did use a lot of time questioning Soud, Halvorson, and the lady from HRC.
Thank you, Charles Hunter!! No one acknowledged my presence,even after I spoke to a few people, I assume because I was not wearing a red or blue sticker and def not those horrid t-shirts, so that made me neutral territory. I felt everyone respected the rules Gulliford set forth, but it is easy to respect the rules when the person in charge cares about what the people are there for; in that regard, Bill Bishop could learn a thing or two for the next Rules Committee. From where I sat, all I got was some huffs and a lot of eye-rolling at CC members. Although, I have to admit I was amongst the very loud gasps when Redman asked, "Do you feel you are male or female?" I am still in shock.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 05, 2012, 09:27:32 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 05, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
Great summary Ashley. Was an interesting meeting, and I hope Bill Bishop - chair of Rules - will agree with Gulliford to hold a joint meeting. I sat in a couple places, mostly surrounded by the "No" group. They were polite and respectful of those speaking.
One thing Ashley didn't mention, after applause for first speaker (former Council Chair Ginger Soud), Gulliford warned the crowd that if there is another outburst or applause, he will shut down the public testimony. It worked, everyone kept quiet (except for some murmuring during Daniels' and Redman's excursions into ... wherever the hell they go) for the rest of the speakers. They did use a lot of time questioning Soud, Halvorson, and the lady from HRC.
Thank you, Charles Hunter!! No one acknowledged my presence,even after I spoke to a few people, I assume because I was not wearing a red or blue sticker and def not those horrid t-shirts, so that made me neutral territory. I felt everyone respected the rules Gulliford set forth, but it is easy to respect the rules when the person in charge cares about what the people are there for; in that regard, Bill Bishop could learn a thing or two for the next Rules Committee. From where I sat, all I got was some huffs and a lot of eye-rolling at CC members. Although, I have to admit I was amongst the very loud gasps when Redman asked, "Do you feel you are male or female?" I am still in shock.
I wish Redman and Daniels were immediately dismissed from their council positions. Completely incompetent and ignorant of both of them .
I am honestly blown away that these are the people representing us. I support the bill 100% and think that there isn't any real argument against it...But, honestly, can they not craft an argument that is made in a reasonable manner and not completely out there? It's like a competition to see who can say the most outlandish and off topic thing.
This bill needs to be passed, not just because it is the right thing, but because the longer it drags on, the closer we get to full crazy.
I found it disturbing that Council Members are allowed to ask questions that are disguised as a way to present their own opinions to the Public commenters. Some do the 'questions' bordered on interrogation. These so called 'questions' in reality are just a method of trying to discredit those members of the public who make comments.
Yesterday's committee meeting went much better than Monday's. Guilliford did a masterful job maintaining order. He needs to teach Bishop a thing or two. Yarbrough, Redman and Daniels were their normal crazy selfs. I was actually pretty impressed with Lumb. He is not supporting the bill but he seemed persuadable and asked some interesting questions.
Lumb has people skills. He can conduct himself without being a total ass . Redman and Daniels in particular leave a great deal to be desired when it comes to dealing with people PERIOD ( setting this particular issue aside) .
Just because any of these individuals may be Christian, does not give any of them the right or power to discriminate. They would not want it done to them , but they have no problem shelling it out. To me that makes each of these people very weak links in our City Council. With this sort of mentality , Daniels by far being the weakest of the links, we will never get anything accomplished.
Ms. Daniels if you were worth your salt ,you would admit you cannot handle this position ,and STEP DOWN.
Quote from: Timkin on June 05, 2012, 11:07:42 PM
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 05, 2012, 09:27:32 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 05, 2012, 05:38:46 PM
Great summary Ashley. Was an interesting meeting, and I hope Bill Bishop - chair of Rules - will agree with Gulliford to hold a joint meeting. I sat in a couple places, mostly surrounded by the "No" group. They were polite and respectful of those speaking.
One thing Ashley didn't mention, after applause for first speaker (former Council Chair Ginger Soud), Gulliford warned the crowd that if there is another outburst or applause, he will shut down the public testimony. It worked, everyone kept quiet (except for some murmuring during Daniels' and Redman's excursions into ... wherever the hell they go) for the rest of the speakers. They did use a lot of time questioning Soud, Halvorson, and the lady from HRC.
Thank you, Charles Hunter!! No one acknowledged my presence,even after I spoke to a few people, I assume because I was not wearing a red or blue sticker and def not those horrid t-shirts, so that made me neutral territory. I felt everyone respected the rules Gulliford set forth, but it is easy to respect the rules when the person in charge cares about what the people are there for; in that regard, Bill Bishop could learn a thing or two for the next Rules Committee. From where I sat, all I got was some huffs and a lot of eye-rolling at CC members. Although, I have to admit I was amongst the very loud gasps when Redman asked, "Do you feel you are male or female?" I am still in shock.
I wish Redman and Daniels were immediately dismissed from their council positions. Completely incompetent and ignorant of both of them .
I don't think I can agree with incompetent, or maybe I don't want to believe we put incompetent people in positions of power. However, I completely agree with ignorant. The ignorance that has taken place in that room over the last two weeks is astounding. I hope this bill does a lot in terms of people's voting tactics for the next round because we certainly have seen their true colors.
Quote from: konstantconsumer on June 06, 2012, 09:02:00 PM
Yesterday's committee meeting went much better than Monday's. Guilliford did a masterful job maintaining order. He needs to teach Bishop a thing or two. Yarbrough, Redman and Daniels were their normal crazy selfs. I was actually pretty impressed with Lumb. He is not supporting the bill but he seemed persuadable and asked some interesting questions.
I agree with Timkin. Lumb definitely has people skills, but (to me) he might be the smartest council member we have. He was the only one that asked questions on Tuesday that appeared unbiased and an attempt at truth-searching. As well as, he seemed genuinely concerned about the acts of discrimination he heard about because the truth is if you are not a LGTB and perhaps you do not have a lot of friends that are then you would not know/understand the horrible things humans are capable of committing towards you. I truly believe Lumb has no idea of the various acts of discrimination that take place on a daily basis. I myself had no idea the horrible things taking place in this city. Yes, I am an educated individual and I know discrimination exists, but I am ashamed of my ignorance of how bad it is out there. Those that live in a bubble can not be blamed for their naivete; however, when the situation is revealed to them and the truth is staring them in the face it is what they do with it that makes them ignorant or not.
I stand behind Lumb because he is the only that appeared to be looking for honest answers about a subject he clearly does not know very much about. I expect Lumb to be in support come time to vote.
Timkin, I am going to add Yarborough and Schellenberg to your list of step downs!
Stephen, FCN did a piece about Redman's comments. Thought you might want to see the whole thing.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/topstories/article/259131/483/Councilman-said-response-to-public-commenter-did-not-show-him-in-the-best-light
Lumb's a bright guy. Like everyone there are instances where his opinions and biases affect his judgment. I wish this wasn't one of those instances, but it is what it is.
Boyer is a wonderful councilwoman.
Don Redman is such a fool. What an embarrassment to the City of Jacksonville. >:(
Quote from: Tacachale on June 07, 2012, 12:52:22 PM
Lumb's a bright guy. Like everyone there are instances where his opinions and biases affect his judgment. I wish this wasn't one of those instances, but it is what it is.
Boyer is a wonderful councilwoman.
As I am learning this process, and becoming more attuned to the members of our CC, Lori Boyer is not one that has been verbal at the meetings at all. Hopefully I can see these wonderful accounts of her in action soon.
Daniels is evidently filing a bill of her own in response to this. It's about as nuanced and well thought out as you'd expect.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-07/jacksonville-city-councilwoman-kimberly-daniels-files
Quote from: Tacachale on June 07, 2012, 02:31:12 PM
Daniels is evidently filing a bill of her own in response to this. It's about as nuanced and well thought out as you'd expect.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-07/jacksonville-city-councilwoman-kimberly-daniels-files
LOL @ that picture of her. Her orange jumpsuit makes it look like she is being arraigned before a judge.
Quote from: finehoe on June 07, 2012, 01:03:47 PM
Don Redman is such a fool. What an embarrassment to the City of Jacksonville. >:(
Don Redman asks, "Do you feel you are a male or a female?" to a clearly Female person. This Screams incompetence for him to have the audacity (and ignorance) to ask such a question. Speaks volumes .
Kimberly Daniels has been tripping all over herself since the day she took office and has not improved over time. Particularly in discussion of this bill , she has , without a doubt , demonstrated Ignorance, Bias, Discrimination, and Most importantly as I initially stated, Incompetence.
I am embarrassed for the City that minds like these , were elected in the first place and represent City Council.
CM Lumb is probably among the strongest in our Council. Like Stephen I have great affection for the man, and did prior to him being voted into City Council. I think he is a great guy.
^It would be nice if Lumb would put that strength and greatness toward passing important legislation like this.
Seems pretty cowardly what happened yesterday. Doubt anything happens with this bill once Clay takes over.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/local/article/260647/3/Anti-discrimination-bill-stalls-in-committee
QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- The push to pass an anti-discrimination bill in Jacksonville is tabled for at least another month.
The bill is officially called the Human Rights Ordinance #296. It is looking to ban discrimination against lesbian, gay, bisexual or transgender individuals in regards to employment and looking for housing.
The human rights bill is in two separate committees, the Rules Committee and the Recreation, Community Development, Public Health & Safety Committee. It must get through both committees before it can go to city council for a vote.
Monday, one of those committees chose to do nothing, pushing the time-table back to after the July 16 Rules Committee meeting.
"We just ran out of time again," said council member and Rules Committee vice chair John Crescembeni.
The bill has been a topic of heated public comment in city council meetings.
"We've had 30, 40, 100 speakers who want to talk about this," Crescembeni said. "I've never had any legislation that's generated as much correspondence - telephone calls, emails - as this legislation has."
But there was no action on the bill in the Rules Committee meeting Monday.
Committee chair Bill Bishop was out sick, and other members left early.
Crescembeni said he chose to move it to the end of the agenda, to make time for other business.
"It got put at the end of the agenda today, it was at the end of the agenda two weeks ago," Crescembeni said. "It gets what time is left and that's probably not fair."
Crescembeni believes because there is so much discussion surrounding the bill, it needs a stand-alone committee. But that's up to the committee chair, Bishop.
The next time the bill reaches the Rules committee, the members will be different.
Matt Schellenberg, Johnny Gaffney and Bill Bishop are leaving.
The next Rules Committee chair will be Clay Yarborough.
The bill is also in the Recreation, Community Development, Public Health & Safety Committee, which meets Tuesday.
The bill must pass both committees before it heads to city council for a vote.
Someone should ask Redman if he's ignorant or just plain stupid.
Doctor K, I am pretty sure lots of people have! Robin Lumb more or less called him that in meeting when he asked the woman if she thought she was a man or woman.
I feel as if they have pushed this to the end of both meetings on purpose. Gulliford practically made it the only order of business in the RCD/PHS committee meeting two weeks ago, but Bishop only heard one side. On another note, what a coward he wasn't even there yesterday!!! I think the most upsetting part of this entire thing is how little the members care. They will complain about the influx of e-mails, phone calls, and letters but then not even have the decency to stay til the end of the meeting or show at all. For both sides, it has to be disheartening to get off work early or take the day off altogether, show up and sit through their boring meeting for 15 minutes of conversation about a matter that clearly has the whole city on edge. STOP PUSHING IT BACK!! At least make a damn decision and lets move on. I think there should be one meeting planned. Make it a Friday when the whole council has no other engagement. They must show. Everyone asks the questions and poses their concerns. Work on the writing of the bill and come to an agreement not matter if it takes all day. Then the following Tuesday they have to vote on it. Two hours here and two hours there could take ten years.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 19, 2012, 01:44:48 PM
Two hours here and two hours there could take ten years.
Make it 11 years. Shouldn't expect any movement on it while Yarborough takes over the Rules Chair in a few weeks. This was absolutely spineless of the committee to handle it the way they did. You're absolutely right about wasting everyone's time, both sides...although one side will view it as a victory. Just gutless.
Ashley ,, they will never willingly approve this bill . Not to say it won't pass , but they are taking every measure they possibly can to stall it as much as humanly possible. They want us to give up . Fat chance.
Even though I have pretty high regard for a few of the members , collectively I wish we could have a panel of unbiased people on the Council who truly want to put the well-being of our people and the betterment of our City first.
Thanks, Bridges. Timkin, I agree with you it may pass (my own personal opinion goes the other way). However, what will be left of what Jones originally brought to the council? If it passes it will barely change the existing ordinance and that is why I am saying this is such a gutless act. Instead, of just voting and shutting it down. They so far have let this go on for almost two months. Toyed with emotions, hurt feelings, name called, divided portions of the city, and shown everyone's true colors. For what? The entertainment value? It's despicable.
Can someone explain to me what would need to happen for this to go to a city wide vote? Or at this point is that no longer an option?
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 19, 2012, 02:10:30 PM
shown everyone's true colors.
I think that may be the most valuable result of the whole process.
It can get to a citywide vote in one of two ways.
1) the Council can have it placed on the countywide ballot as a nonbinding straw poll.
2) a community group can gather signatures sufficient (kind of a lot) to have it placed on the ballot as, I think, a Charter Amendment. But it may also come as a nonbinding straw poll as well. Would have to review the code.
^The Council should not need a non-binding straw poll to do the simple job they were elected to do. If that were the case, why have a council at all? Unfortunately this got tied up in some unfortunate committees, but we should be able to pull it out. We had nearly half the council who were solid votes even before the language was softened; hopefully some of the fence-sitters will come over now.
I'll say it again, this would have been a lot easier if Mayor Brown had done what he promised in his campaign and stood up for the legislation.
Quote from: Jimmy on June 19, 2012, 02:39:53 PM
It can get to a citywide vote in one of two ways.
1) the Council can have it placed on the countywide ballot as a nonbinding straw poll.
2) a community group can gather signatures sufficient (kind of a lot) to have it placed on the ballot as, I think, a Charter Amendment. But it may also come as a nonbinding straw poll as well. Would have to review the code.
Thank, Jimmy.
Tacachale, can you list the names that were solid votes even before the language changed??
The city's leadership, or should I say lack thereof, has certainly been on display on this issue.
And you wonder why Jax is 20 years behind most cities in Downtown/urban redevelopement.
Sodom and Gomorrah?? Really?? This pastor is saying that Sodomites (assuming he means the LGBT community) should be punished the same way. Yes, we all know the story and the lesson entailed. However, again! no one is saying lets have sex in the street, shoot up on the city bus, and carry a fifth to the CC meetings. The city of Jacksonville will not become a modern day Sodom and Gomorrah because people have equal rights.
I was unable to attend the meeting yesterday but you can see it in the speaker's faces and their eyes that the affect of this bill and the comments being made about their community is beginning to weigh on them. Weeks ago there was a pride in their voice and pep in their step. The passion is beginning to dissipate and you can see and hear the pain. I don't know how the CC members cant see the truth behind the need for equality amongst all.
Quote from: vicupstate on June 19, 2012, 03:00:28 PM
The city's leadership, or should I say lack thereof, has certainly been on display on this issue.
And you wonder why Jax is 20 years behind most cities in Downtown/urban redevelopement.
It has never been in question for me , Vicup. It is really sad that this sort of crap is what keeps what should be a world-class city, in the Mayberry Days .
"In the Mayberry Days". Timkin you are rapidly becoming my favorite! Ha!
It seems as if the opposing side is running out of arguments. They keep offering the same argument over and over again. One commentator offers a ridiculous and confusing explanation about why members of the opposing side are worried about pedophilia. Another states the small business community is 100% against this, well this won't affect most of the small businesses anyways so that argument is pointless. The supporting side is using the same strong arguments over and over again as well but they are solid. Arguments no one seems to be attacking today.
Thus far not a single council member has said a word.
Gulliford explains time is coming to an end. There is one more speaker, he asks if the country had voted on Black equality and the beginning of their civil rights would it have passed? He assesses that the vote for such a thing today would even be close. That is why we vote for members of the community into positions of authority in order to make unbiased, non-religious decisions to better the community and that is there job. Their job is not to consider this bill based on their own personal religious beliefs.
The speaker states, that 1 in 11 pedophiles are gay. Doesn't cite information.
Quote from: Timkin on June 19, 2012, 03:07:59 PM
Quote from: vicupstate on June 19, 2012, 03:00:28 PM
The city's leadership, or should I say lack thereof, has certainly been on display on this issue.
And you wonder why Jax is 20 years behind most cities in Downtown/urban redevelopement.
It has never been in question for me , Vicup. It is really sad that this sort of crap is what keeps what should be a world-class city, in the Mayberry Days .
Sad but true. I'd even argue that we're more than 20 years behind.
Why is Daniels reading something about Canada's HRO?? Sweden?? London?? And why has Gulliford not interrupted her? We get three minutes but CC members can ramble for however long they please?
New thought if you cannot complete a simple sentence without losing your breath you may be too old to be in a chair on the CC meeting.
Meeting adjourned. Disappointing council member interaction today. Disappointing allotment of time for comments and there were zero questions.
Kim Daniels may have said it best today. "This is America."
Yes, ma'am. This is indeed America which is why it is our right and duty to uphold the Declaration of Indpendence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
I suggest reviewing the attached link. It gives another perspective of some clergy's view of the issue, in this case the subject of gay marriage in Washington State.
This issue and the discussion surrounding it is the pinnacle of embarrassment for the city of Jacksonville.
http://www.pubtheo.com/page.asp?PID=1746
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 19, 2012, 03:46:22 PM
New thought if you cannot complete a simple sentence without losing your breath you may be too old to be in a chair on the CC meeting.
Meeting adjourned. Disappointing council member interaction today. Disappointing allotment of time for comments and there were zero questions.
Kim Daniels may have said it best today. "This is America."
Yes, ma'am. This is indeed America which is why it is our right and duty to uphold the Declaration of Indpendence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.
Interesting that Ms. Daniels would say that.
This is America. A bill like this should pass without reservation amongst a group of TRULY unbiased people.
Another one of those " Only in Jacksonville, Florida" to add to a list long enough to create a whole series of books.
Quote from: Steve_Lovett on June 19, 2012, 04:06:32 PM
I suggest reviewing the attached link. It gives another perspective of some clergy's view of the issue, in this case the subject of gay marriage in Washington State.
This issue and the discussion surrounding it is the pinnacle of embarrassment for the city of Jacksonville.
http://www.pubtheo.com/page.asp?PID=1746
Yes, some clergy's have spoken up in the same manner. However, none of them spoke today. I don't believe I have heard any of them since the first two weeks of conversation.
More proof how far behind we are:
While watching a documentary about Penn State for a Sociology class about "The Gendered Society" the documentary states that Penn State added sexual orientation to their school Anti-Discriminatory clause in 1992. Before this clause was added and at the time they had a narcissistic women's basketball coach known to rip scholarships and relieve women from her team for being a lesbian. And we all know about Joe Paterno. Perhaps, the GLBT community is not the problem.
The actions, or I should say the inaction, of our City Council members on this issue have made it very clear what needs to be done - they should be voted out of office. It's amazing to me that these people that we elected to represent us in our city do not have the ability to see what is needed for the good of this great city of ours. What really surprises me is that there is no real leadership on the City Council. No one has stood up to address the ones that oppose this ordinance to help them understand why this kind of legislation is so vitally needed for the good of everyone. I still can't believe that in this day and age there are still people that think it is alright to discriminate against others. I wonder if anyone has considered how much revenue the LGBT community has contributed to the Jacksonville economy. Surely those individuals have assisted many businesses with their support. Perhaps an economic boycott of some of those businesses, especially those of the current City Council members might be a good way to show the impact of our LGBT citizens.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 19, 2012, 07:15:59 PM
More proof how far behind we are:
Washington DC enacted theirs in
1973!
Quote from: RexMontana on June 19, 2012, 07:55:03 PM
The actions, or I should say the inaction, of our City Council members on this issue have made it very clear what needs to be done - they should be voted out of office. It's amazing to me that these people that we elected to represent us in our city do not have the ability to see what is needed for the good of this great city of ours. What really surprises me is that there is no real leadership on the City Council. No one has stood up to address the ones that oppose this ordinance to help them understand why this kind of legislation is so vitally needed for the good of everyone. I still can't believe that in this day and age there are still people that think it is alright to discriminate against others.
What I find sad is that we cannot remove these individuals before another election cycle. Seems they are somehow in violation. For example. CM Redman asking a Woman, Do you think you are a man or a woman? Or Ms. Daniels ridiculous (at best ) rant ( too many examples to list)
Why does this become a council issue in the first place? Why can it not go to the voters?
Why did Washington enact this in 1973 and 39 years the people of Jacksonville ,Fl are begging to an incompetent and biased council, for our RIGHTS ( That is not to ask for rights to do anything that is in violation of common laws, just to be treated equally ) and this group gets to decide? SERIOUSLY? Something is very wrong with this picture :o
I know nothing about City Council and I am certain I could go to work today and do a more effective job than some of our esteemed members. I don't think we should have to wait for them to term out or be voted out. Seems these individuals some how crossed a line in this process.
Do we have anyone who can verify this?
Younger MJ readers might not be aware of the events of 1977 when the Miami City Council passed their human rights ordinance:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/14/2589758/when-miami-dade-was-culture-war.html
Be careful what you wish for on putting peoples rights up for a popular vote.
^This goes to the council because it's their job. Their duty is to represent us and pass the legislation. Legislating by referendum is usually a bad idea. The council needs to cowboy up and pass this thing.
Quote from: finehoe on June 20, 2012, 12:09:55 PM
Younger MJ readers might not be aware of the events of 1977 when the Miami City Council passed their human rights ordinance:
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/01/14/2589758/when-miami-dade-was-culture-war.html
Be careful what you wish for on putting peoples rights up for a popular vote.
Wow, thanks for sharing the article. I think there is a moment when every young adult is forced to become a realist and this bill may have been the thing to do it for me.
It's terrible. Timkin I have no idea the ins and outs either, but I would love to know if you find the answer first.
Jimmy would be the one who might be able to answer that. I have no clue.
Our City Council is failing us, because they are biased. They are putting their personal religious convictions into the mix on an issue they should NOT be allowed to do.
But then , this is not the only way they are failing us and I think many would concur. I am also deeply disappointed that Mayor Brown does not seem to stand on the side of many who voted him in , and are probably going to live to regret that as well. Personally , I want to see the best in everyone. This particular bill has shown all of Jacksonville that elected members cannot separate personal from business. This does not affect them, it affects us.
THEIR GOD did not give them the right to judge.... and they most certainly ARE judging.
There are many on the council who are for this, and a few who are against it who are otherwise good council members. Hard as it is I try to keep that in mind.
Honestly, a big part of the problem is we have too many new members with no political background. We've got a bunch of trigger-shy greenhorns in the saddle who aren't used to dealing with backlash. As such they get scared on items like this, which is really pretty standard stuff, and inaction is the default.
Hopefully the fencesitters will toughen up when this comes to a vote.
And of course, this would have been a lot easier if Alvin had endorsed it as he said he would.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2012, 10:14:18 AM
And of course, this would have been a lot easier if Alvin had endorsed it as he said he would.
^ agreed. It would seem his administration is scrambling and learning (or maybe not) as they go. So far I am deeply disappointed.
Quote from: Timkin on June 21, 2012, 11:46:03 AM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2012, 10:14:18 AM
And of course, this would have been a lot easier if Alvin had endorsed it as he said he would.
^ agreed. It would seem his administration is scrambling and learning (or maybe not) as they go. So far I am deeply disappointed.
Brown is trying to co-op his opposition by carrying water for them on budget cuts and staying quiet on this issue.
I have followed politics for a long time, and it is the very rare public official that can hold their original coalition and still pick up support from past opposition.
John Delaney did it quite well, to such a degree that he had no opposition for re-election despite winning narrowly the first time. I think Brown is trying to do the same.
It isn't going to work though, because the electorate is much more divided than during Delaney's tenure, and because he is viewed as a local version of Obama, therefore he can't be trusted by the mtrains of the city.
He isn't 'one of them' and he never will be. The sooner he realizes that, and starts to 'dance with those that brought him' the better off he will be.
^People have a far wider range of criticisms than that he's a "local version of Obama". In fact, I don't believe I've heard that one at all.
^^^Agreed with Tacachale. I think many are disappointed in the actual job he's doing, not that he's a black democrat who may or may not hold the same political views as Obama.
I just can't believe the show that's going on down in Jacksonville. Again, when you have a very socially conservative black community (albeit Warren Jones wrote the bill), a very conservative redneck community, a socially conservative blue collar workforce that has spent multiple generations in the same city, and then a rapidly growing suburban area with transplants who could care two shits about what goes on "in the city", you're going to get this crap.
Somehow the people of Jacksonville need to be conditioned and trained, because they are still voting council members and mayors in based on political views, social views and how well they "know" the person through church and stuff. I think that's a difficult task that lies ahead.
To an earlier quote the question isn't what the city has gained economically from the LGBT community, because it's really very small in Jax (and closeted), but rather what the city hasn't gained by not having a large and thriving LGBT community. Think what wonders it would do the city to have a huge population to turn around neighborhoods, drive up home/land values, spend money on frivolous things, bigger houses, and all because they don't have kids to feed, etc etc. That's what the city has missed out on because of issues such as this holding it back from being attractive to the LGBT community.
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 01:56:56 PM
...what the city hasn't gained by not having a large and thriving LGBT community.
It all goes back to attracting the creative class, which I have posted on this board multiple times.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_class
Jacksonville refuses to even compete when it comes to attracting this demographic.
And might I add that the gay community really supports the arts. Many wealthy gays are big big big philanthropists. Can't think of any in Jacksonville (anyone?). Gays also throw the best parties :).
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 02:15:28 PM
Gays also throw the best parties :).
;) Agreed !
^No offense guys, our creative class gap is an important topic, but this issue is bigger than that. Despite the stereotypes, not all LGBT folks are part of the "creative class" or "young professional" demographic. In Jacksonville, gays and lesbians are more likely to be working parents than young urban pioneers - all the same their basic rights should be protected.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
not all LGBT folks are part of the "creative class" or "young professional" demographic.
Quite true, and it wasn't my intention to imply otherwise. The point I was trying to make, is that passing something like an anti-discrimination bill should be a no-brainer in 2012, if not because it is the right thing to do, than from an economic development standpoint. But our lame-ass City Council (and those who support them) is so blinded by their prejudices that they can't even see it from that angle. And unfortunately, this is a pattern that has been followed for decades and holds Jacksonville back from being the great place it has the potential to be.
^I most certainly agree.
Quote from: finehoe on June 21, 2012, 02:45:37 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2012, 02:24:51 PM
not all LGBT folks are part of the "creative class" or "young professional" demographic.
Quite true, and it wasn't my intention to imply otherwise. The point I was trying to make, is that passing something like an anti-discrimination bill should be a no-brainer in 2012, if not because it is the right thing to do, than from an economic development standpoint. But our lame-ass City Council (and those who support them) is so blinded by their prejudices that they can't even see it from that angle. And unfortunately, this is a pattern that has been followed for decades and holds Jacksonville back from being the great place it has the potential to be.
^Finehoe.... you rock !!! ;)
Quote from: Tacachale on June 21, 2012, 01:29:49 PM
^People have a far wider range of criticisms than that he's a "local version of Obama". In fact, I don't believe I've heard that one at all.
Apparently you don't read the T-U comments, not that I would blame you.
I agree that the criticisms against Brown are wide ranging, and many of those are legitimate.
But he has shown a strong willingness to carry Tea Party water in my opinion. It will do him no good. Those people will never support anyone with a D after his name. They view Obama as unqualified to be elected POTUS and not up to the task. They feel the same way about Brown, and were predisposed to him being a failure.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400601/ron-littlepage/2012-06-22/ron-littlepage-time-vote-jacksonvilles-anti
Sums it up I think.
Figured I would share because I didn't know Joost could do this.
I hope they vote for this favorably and put it to rest. That they have stalled so long on this is inexcusable.
Is there any way around this , should council continue to want to stall and drag their feet? .
According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.
For once, I agree with her.
Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill
Quote from: Tamara-B on June 22, 2012, 09:00:55 PM
According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.
For once, I agree with her.
Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill
If it were a mix, she would still find something wrong with it. BECAUSE she does not like the bill and does not want it to pass ::) .
Is the "Mayberry Factor" EVER going to be over in Jacksonville ?
Quote from: Tamara-B on June 22, 2012, 09:00:55 PM
According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.
For once, I agree with her.
Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill
Tamara, I am not his biggest fan either. However, are there certain procedures he has to follow when appointing chairs? i.e. length of service, per district, etc. Or was it his job to do it?
As I understand it, from observing Council for ... a long time ... the Council President can name any of the other 18 members to any position. Completely within the discretion of the Prez.
http://www.news4jax.com/news/Minority-council-members-claim-discrimination/-/475880/15211404/-/p3p1qgz/-/index.html
I find all of this entirely ironic. What are the odds this comes up in the midst of a anti-discrimination bill battle?
That they don't get the irony of that which they claim is happening to them. They are being discriminated against because they are black?? :o
HELLOOOOOOOOOOO !!!! You are discriminating against Gays, Lesbians, Transgenders, on the basis of their sexual identity (and because you see it as a direct conflict of your personal religious convictions) by not passing this bill and letting the matter GO!! >:(
But, the other two have barely spoken on the matter of bill 2012-296.
I forgot to ask, Bishop is the one to appoint the presidents of the five committees. And the council members elected Bishop to CC President??
Stephen...
For the record, I only have met CM Jones and I like and respect the man. That is the first point.
Secondly .. maybe I misunderstand the article. It says " JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -
At a time when the City Council is taking up an anti-discrimination bill, some council members are charging the council is discriminating itself by not appointing black members to key positions.
Council members Denise Lee, Warren Jones, Johnny Gaffney and Kimberly Daniels held a special meeting Thursday to talk about appointments made by upcoming council President Bill Bishop."
I don't know what I said , that was offensive. Please forgive me. My point was, these Council people are taking issue, claiming discrimination.. Or am I reading that wrong? Please feel free to correct me.
Maybe I should correct one portion of my previous statement. Maybe "THEY" meaning all four council people are not discriminating against bill # 2012-296. ( If so I profusely stand corrected)
My main point I thought I was making was.. They feel they are being discriminated against. I KNOW WE ARE , by this bill not being passed, by the deliberation of it meeting after meeting after meeting, and its not fair. The way I take it is , it is okay for council to discriminate against Gays and Lesbians , but it is totally okay if some of them cry discrimination because they are not placed on the panel?
What exactly is it that I said that was offensive? Please enlighten me.
Skin color is a not an issue, to me. If my post came across that way, I deeply and sincerely apologize.
^Your frustration is understandable, but you're painting everyone with the same brush regardless of where they actually stand on this issue. Most notably, Warren Jones introduced the HRO to the council and has been working his tail off for it, and he deserves all the support he can get.
Desmond Tutu has announced his support for the ordinance.
This is especially significant as it's coming from an international figure who knows Jacksonville quite well; he taught at UNF for a semester several years ago and was awarded an honorary doctorate. He has also come to town a number of times for speaking engagements and Episcopal Church functions.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-25/pass-sexual-orientation-bill-desmond-tutu-urges
Read all about it in the Los Angeles Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-desmond-tutu-jacksonville-gays-anti-discrimination-20120625,0,4836892.story
Quote from: Tacachale on June 25, 2012, 07:45:21 PM
Desmond Tutu has announced his support for the ordinance.
This is especially significant as it's coming from an international figure who knows Jacksonville quite well; he taught at UNF for a semester several years ago and was awarded an honorary doctorate. He has also come to town a number of times for speaking engagements and Episcopal Church functions.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/steve-patterson/2012-06-25/pass-sexual-orientation-bill-desmond-tutu-urges
Read all about it in the Los Angeles Times:
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-desmond-tutu-jacksonville-gays-anti-discrimination-20120625,0,4836892.story
His interest and support is quite extraordinary. However, and I hate to be a pessimist, but I feel as if God himself could walk into the chambers and voice support for the amendment to the ordinance and still half the council would not be swayed.
Has anyone heard anything else about Joost having the ability to pull the bill for a vote tomorrow night? And if there is a chance he will do it??
My understanding is he has the ability - whether he will do it or not is another thing.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 25, 2012, 08:37:29 PM
My understanding is he has the ability - whether he will do it or not is another thing.
Well, he was quoted on Jacksonville.com stating, he doesn't want to end his presidency on a power trip. (more or less).
Quote from: Tacachale on June 25, 2012, 07:38:18 PM
^Your frustration is understandable, but you're painting everyone with the same brush regardless of where they actually stand on this issue. Most notably, Warren Jones introduced the HRO to the council and has been working his tail off for it, and he deserves all the support he can get.
I stand corrected and again apologize . Thank you Tacachale and Stephen.
Quote from: Tamara-B on June 22, 2012, 09:00:55 PM
According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.
For once, I agree with her.
Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill
I don't understand. Is she charging that he didn't follow proper protocol with the people he did appoint or that that they were specifically excluded because of their skin color? Or could it have been that she just thinks that they should have been included solely based on their skin color.
That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.
EDIT: Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything: http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html (http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html)
QuoteThe Democratic Alliance (DA) is profoundly saddened by reports today indicating that Thapelo Makutle, recently named Miss Gay Kuruman, was murdered this past weekend as the victim of a homophobic hate crime.
Makutle's decapitated body was found in his home on Saturday.
This violent and gruesome assault is yet another reminder that many of our country's people are still denied the basic rights and freedoms which our Constitution enshrines.
Maybe Desmond Tutu should look for a better solution back home instead of sticking his face here where thank god at least it isn't that bad.
Quote from: simms3 on June 21, 2012, 01:56:56 PM
Somehow the people of Jacksonville need to be conditioned and trained, because they are still voting council members and mayors in based on political views, social views and how well they "know" the person through church and stuff. I think that's a difficult task that lies ahead.
Completely outside of the discussion, I know, so let's not get sidetracked too much, but Simms, what else would people base their vote on besides a candidate's political views, social views and how well they know the person? Unfortunately, my feeling is that people don't know enough about candidates' views before they vote for them. And that's not the electorate's fault entirely, because modern candidates run attack ads and talk fluff and PR talking points, not about their own views. And it works for them, so little incentive to change it.
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
Quote from: Tamara-B on June 22, 2012, 09:00:55 PM
According to current events, Ms. Daniels isn't too pleased by Bill Bishop appointing only white members for committee chairs.
For once, I agree with her.
Maybe now she knows how gay, Jax citizens feel about the discrimination they are facing and their fight for this bill
I don't understand. Is she charging that he didn't follow proper protocol with the people he did appoint or that that they were specifically excluded because of their skin color? Or could it have been that she just thinks that they should have been included solely based on their skin color.
That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.
EDIT: Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything: http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html (http://allafrica.com/stories/201206140129.html)
QuoteThe Democratic Alliance (DA) is profoundly saddened by reports today indicating that Thapelo Makutle, recently named Miss Gay Kuruman, was murdered this past weekend as the victim of a homophobic hate crime.
Makutle's decapitated body was found in his home on Saturday.
This violent and gruesome assault is yet another reminder that many of our country's people are still denied the basic rights and freedoms which our Constitution enshrines.
Maybe Desmond Tutu should look for a better solution back home instead of sticking his face here where thank god at least it isn't that bad.
Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class" or whatever the line is, it simply makes illegal to fire someone, kick them out of their house, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. If you don't believe this hasn't been happening, you need to get out more.
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.
A whole lot wrong with this here. First, there isn't a protected class. The anti-discrimination bill covers heterosexuals just as much as it does homosexuals. Second, it doesn't act as a trump card. It only serves to protect against discriminatory firing/hiring or housing. Like Tacachale said.
And last but not least, are you suggesting that if you can't completely get rid of something then there shouldn't be a law against it? Murder? Rape? Theft? All still happen. Do you think government should stay out of making laws against them?
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
Government is not the answer to every (any) problem...Here is sad proof of my point that all of the legislation in the world doesn't solve anything
You might want to educate yourself on the history of civil rights legislation in this country if you think that the government can't have any effect on making the lives of members of minority groups better through legislation.
[/quote]
Sorry, I'm calling bullshit. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class" or whatever the line is, it simply makes illegal to fire someone, kick them out of their house, etc, simply because of their sexual orientation. If you don't believe this hasn't been happening, you need to get out more.
[/quote]
Really? So I'm gay and I get kick out, fired, not hired ... etc. The immediate reason MUST be that I'm gay right? Not because there is someone more qualified, or I suck at my job or have bad credit ... etc ... etc. All you have to do is make the accusation! The burden becomes on the person accused to prove (some fucking how) that they're not homophobic or or racist or whatever That's where the bullshit is. And yes, that's a protected class. All of the sudden you're hiring the gay guy over someone more qualified just to avoid the charge and the fight. OR you're required to appoint people to certain positions on the city council just because they're black, or gay .. etc etc.
^^^I'm afraid you have a profound misunderstanding of how the law works.
Quote from: Bridges on June 26, 2012, 09:45:39 AM
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 06:26:51 AM
That last part is the exact problem with creating a protected class based on anything. As soon as they are unhappy with something they have an automatic "trump" card to pull. The other problem is that you can't legislate hate out of people or acceptance in. Sure you can make punishments worse, but there is still hate and discrimination. Government is not the answer to every (any) problem.
A whole lot wrong with this here. First, there isn't a protected class. The anti-discrimination bill covers heterosexuals just as much as it does homosexuals. Second, it doesn't act as a trump card. It only serves to protect against discriminatory firing/hiring or housing. Like Tacachale said.
And last but not least, are you suggesting that if you can't completely get rid of something then there shouldn't be a law against it? Murder? Rape? Theft? All still happen. Do you think government should stay out of making laws against them?
A. I'm heterosexual and I don't want the protection. Thanks but no thanks. The government screws up anything it touches. If it's not screwing it up just yet, wait until the next guy gets voted in and screws it up for you. You may see it as "Protecting" or giving you a right. Unfortunately the government doesn't give rights. The only thing "government" does and does well is controls people through force. Period.
Your second comment is a complete red herring, and honestly I think it's disrespectful to compare discrimination (yes I'll qualify) in America today with murder or rape.
Quote from: finehoe on June 26, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
^^^I'm afraid you have a profound misunderstanding of how the law works.
You seem content with pointing out that I should get educated and have little understanding. Why not educate me instead?
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 12:32:15 PM
Your second comment is a complete red herring, and honestly I think it's disrespectful to compare discrimination (yes I'll qualify) in America today with murder or rape.
At no point did I compare those crimes to discrimination. Only that outlawing or protecting something doesn't have to completely eliminate it in order to be effective or needed.
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: finehoe on June 26, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
^^^I'm afraid you have a profound misunderstanding of how the law works.
You seem content with pointing out that I should get educated and have little understanding. Why not educate me instead?
I'll bite. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class", it merely adds sexual orientation to the list of things, including race, creed and age, that you can't use in firing someone, kicking them out of their home, or denying them access to stores and restaurants. The only folks this effects are those who want to continue discriminating against gays. For literally everyone else, it's good policy.
Quote from: Tacachale on June 26, 2012, 01:57:01 PM
Quote from: jtwestside on June 26, 2012, 12:41:47 PM
Quote from: finehoe on June 26, 2012, 12:29:08 PM
^^^I'm afraid you have a profound misunderstanding of how the law works.
You seem content with pointing out that I should get educated and have little understanding. Why not educate me instead?
I'll bite. The ordinance doesn't create a "protected class", it merely adds sexual orientation to the list of things, including race, creed and age, that you can't use in firing someone, kicking them out of their home, or denying them access to stores and restaurants. The only folks this effects are those who want to continue discriminating against gays. For literally everyone else, it's good policy.
Again, much like the other unneeded protections it opens the door for unfounded allegations. Florida is an at will state regarding employment meaning a business should be able to fire you for no reason at all. These laws open the door to a "well he didn't like we because of X" allegations impeding on the business owners rights.
Don't get me wrong, the government shouldn't make laws that exclude anyone .. meaning voting, schooling ... etc. But I think "protections" for certain (any) groups goes too far. They do nothing to address the underlying issue of ignorance and intolerance anyway.
^No, it doesn't really. People can make "unfounded allegations" currently, and anything unfounded will be dismissed under the law. The difference will be that victims of true allegations will have recourse if they are fired, kicked out of their home, etc. for being gay.
And if you're going to talk about "impeding on the business owners rights" you really ought to be better informed about what "the business owners" actually want. The business community is strongly in favor of this legislation and are in fact some of its strongest backers. You can be damn sure this wouldn't be the case they thought it infringed on their rights.
Good Evening,
Since there seems to be a small amount of uncertainty still looming about this bill, MJ staff will attempt to clear some stuff up this evening as we live blog from the city council meeting. Joost just made it clear that there will be no vote this evening on this matter, but we already knew he wouldn't not pull rank. Nevertheless, it is important to keep this bill at the top of our list through conversation.
The weather mimics the mood of the room this evening as we head into our third CC Meeting.
Don Redman asked for those in opposition of the bill to stand so that they may leave if they like since there will be no vote this evening. a large portion of the room stood and most of those have left. It appears most of the city is not keeping up with the bill despite their continuous efforts to show up at the meetings.
Some good news though, CC announces that parking validations will now be offered for those that attend any CC meeting including the regular Council meeting, all sub committee meetings, and any personal meetings one may have with a CC member. You may get your parking validated for the Public Parking garage on Duval and Main.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 26, 2012, 05:29:07 PM
Some good news though, CC announces that parking validations will now be offered for those that attend any CC meeting including the regular Council meeting, all sub committee meetings, and any personal meetings one may have with a CC member. You may get your parking validated for the Public Parking garage on Duval and Main.
http://youtu.be/ZCFCeJTEzNU
ahaha, I just want to know can I get back the $.75 I just put in a meter before this meeting.
Councilman Jones finally calls his supporters to stand to show their support of bill 2012-296. Smaller crowd than normal in attendance for the supporters of 296. Debby must be holding them captive. Along with Kim Daniels since she is NOT in attendance this evening.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 26, 2012, 05:52:45 PM
ahaha, I just want to know can I get back the $.75 I just put in a meter before this meeting.
Councilman Jones finally calls his supporters to stand to show their support of bill 2012-296. Smaller crowd than normal in attendance for the supporters of 296. Debby must be holding them captive. Along with Kim Daniels since she is NOT in attendance this evening.
To the first point.. I ll give you $.75. To the second point , refer to my previous post ;)
Quote from: Timkin on June 26, 2012, 06:14:30 PM
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 26, 2012, 05:52:45 PM
ahaha, I just want to know can I get back the $.75 I just put in a meter before this meeting.
Councilman Jones finally calls his supporters to stand to show their support of bill 2012-296. Smaller crowd than normal in attendance for the supporters of 296. Debby must be holding them captive. Along with Kim Daniels since she is NOT in attendance this evening.
To the first point.. I ll give you $.75. To the second point , refer to my previous post ;)
Ha. I must disagree. I get upset when she is not here. Means it might actually be a smooth meeting, and where is the fun in that?? Since I love religious-fanatics that scream to the room, "I'm gonna get my point across every time. I am going to speak out and stand up for what I (hits her chest) know to be truth every time." haha.
:o ( hits her chest?) :o
hits might be slightly barbaric. When speaking she often pats her chest, open palm, when she gets heated. Like a pastor stomps his foot.
Don Redman keeps saying things like, it's what the community wants and it's good for the community. Hate to say it but it doesn't seem like lately the council really cares what any "community" wants.
Watching on TV I almost choked on my beer when Redman said, "As I understand this ..." really Don? understand?
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 26, 2012, 08:38:58 PM
Watching on TV I almost choked on my beer when Redman said, "As I understand this ..." really Don? understand?
ahaha, you kids are crazy tonight!! Seriously though, I think there should be an age limit for city council members.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 26, 2012, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 26, 2012, 08:38:58 PM
Watching on TV I almost choked on my beer when Redman said, "As I understand this ..." really Don? understand?
ahaha, you kids are crazy tonight!! Seriously though, I think there should be an age limit for city council members.
Good point Ashley...
"As I understand this " ....... ;D
So, I will not start a new thread for this question since there is a mayor-focused thread already taking place on the forum. Therefore lets try to keep this about 296 in regards to the mayor not turn it into something about the mayor.
Question #1:
Simply put, Why is the mayor of this city allowed to not offer some sort of answer, concern, opinion, or questions about a piece of legislation that has a large number of people in this city religiously attending CC meetings and dragging themselves to City Hall during not one but TWO TROPICAL THUNDERSTORMS?? How has he dodged 6 weeks worth of conversation about bill 2012-296. He sure as hell made sure his budget passed and took less than five minutes to broadcast it across twitter last night after it was voted on.
I feel I do not know enough about the Mayor's campaign or term to have an overall opinion about him. (again as all of this is a new interest) But I have been to every meeting and read about this bill every day for 5 weeks and personally, I don't even want to hear his opinion or stance on the matter now. Some things are too little too late and he should have said something by now. So, I am taking a poll.
Question #2:
Do we think the mayor will be able to dodge the questioning about 296 tonight yet again tonight? Or will he actually speak out on something other than his education program and Debby.
In case you don't know what I am talking about:
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/403455/timothy-gibbons/2012-06-27/mayor-alvin-brown-getting-hit-human-rights-ordinance
Hope you guys are joking about age limits. There would probably be younger folks on the council if younger voters showed up at the polls in the same proportion that older voters do. :)
I have to confess. I stayed home because of Debby, and because I knew they wouldn't vote last night. At least they can excuse their inaction on the storm, and not gutlessness. :-) I plan to be there next time.
I can't get there until 6:00 anyway, and by then there are so many speakers in line. Plus, what I had all written out to say at the first meeting has been said already by others, and better too. Do unto others and you would have them do unto you. Be ye kind one to another. It's the right thing to do.
Oh, and please don't assume all old folks are discriminatory or senile. That's discriminatory in itself. As Libertarian said, if you want younger council members, go run for council. Go vote for them.
We'll see how well Brown can continue to dodge this issue. His silence is going to hurt him bad in the future, especially if he seeks higher office.
Then there's the matter of whether he'll veto the bill if it passes.
Sorry to hit a sensitive note, but I never discriminated against the elderly. Nor did I assume anything. My comment is based on fact that Don Redman can no longer fully complete a single declarative sentence nor can he contemplate the repercussions for the comments he makes. Therefore, yes he has come to a point in his career that he is too mentally old to be in the position that he is in. Not a single other member on the council has this problem. I will assume Gulliford is of a certain age, perhaps older or close to Redman, and he does not have this problem. SO, in regards to Don Redman which is who we were talking about I stand by my statement that he is too old to make decisions based on fact for our community. In in no regards does that mean I was saying he is senile. He clearly is not. Biased, yes. Religiously swayed, definitely. Discriminatory, yes. Senile, no.
Debbie, don't feel bad the room was not nearly full last night which is totally understandable. I was shocked they didn't cancel the meeting in total.
Urbanlibertarian, I cannot speak for the rest of my demographic but I vote and have since I was legally able. I dont think someone my age (26) is mature enough for a position like the CC or mayor for that matter. Nor was I inferring that a much younger group than what we have should replace the current members.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on June 26, 2012, 09:56:40 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on June 26, 2012, 08:38:58 PM
Watching on TV I almost choked on my beer when Redman said, "As I understand this ..." really Don? understand?
ahaha, you kids are crazy tonight!! Seriously though, I think there should be an age limit for city council members.
Maybe not an age limit (cough!) but there should be a lower IQ limit for sure!
Ashely - they did not pass the Mayor's Budget last night, they just passed a Resolution that basically says, "We got your Draft Budget" They will consider the actual budget, which is due in early July, in great detail with - hopefully - with many public meetings.
And teh Mayor's webchat was canceled due to the storm.
So the new council president decides to appoint African-American leadership over a committee after all the protest---so he appoints Kimberly Daniels?? Seriously?
WTF ? >:(
has anyone stepped up to start a campaign to rid the council of Don Redman and wierdo Kimberly?
Quote from: Timkin on June 27, 2012, 11:29:31 PM
So the new council president decides to appoint African-American leadership over a committee after all the protest---so he appoints Kimberly Daniels?? Seriously?
WTF ? >:(
Maybe this is Bishop's way of saying, "Be careful what you ask for!"
^ Sounds more like another road block to making the bill pass to me... another thing we can add to the long list of things that will never happen because this is, after all, Mayberry Jacksonville, Fl.
It is disheartening that we elect these people into these positions and they can pretty well do as they damn well please. :(
Ughhh >:(
What's the current status of this bill?
This is week is a busy week for Ordinance 2012-296, the Anti-Discrimination Bill.
This week the bill needs to be voted up or down by the Rules, RCD, and PHS committee in order for the bill to go to a full vote at the CC meeting next Wednesday.
This morning at 10am in the Rules committee the bill was, for the first time in the history of Jacksonville, voted for approval by a committee. The vote was 4-3 in favor of the LGBT community. Among those voting for the bill: Lori Boyer, John Crescimbeni, Warren Jones, and Jim Love. Those against: Ray Holt, Clay Yarborough, and Robin Lumb.
That is one major step towards victory for 296. Up next the PHS committee which is led by Kim Daniels.
To my surprise, Kim Daniels begins the meeting with discussion about 2012-296.
Jones speaks up about the substitute stating, the substitution strikes all types of expression from the original amendment of the bill. Strikes the religious aspects, Clarifies the language in the Constitution, Adds exisiting language that exempts companies of 15 or lower, and depicts what the HRC can and cannot do.
Jones thinks this bill is clear and asks for their support.
Redman thinks the bill is the same, and is the beginning to a very long, dark road for our community. He also believes that our community does not want this bill passed and that he is "deathly against it".
Jones points out the new amendment takes out all use of the word expression. The remedies are limited through the HRC to only conciliation, no suing no courts. It also removes any religious groups from the bill. Mimics the wording in the constitution of the United States.
Ray Holt, Clay Yarborough, and Robin Lumb- You lost my vote!
Don't be surprised, AshleyLauren. She was counting on Councilman Crescimbeni not coming downstairs fast enough to participate.
So, it was quite dramatic when he strolled into Chambers right after the vote to call the question. His vote saved the substitute bill in this committee, 4-3. Voting for the sub were Crescimbeni, Jones, Anderson, and Love. Voting against were Daniels, Schellenberg, and Redman.
We're listening to a speaker now called up to answer questions by Redman. Amazing how far the truth will stretch.
Hopefully a vote soon.
Anderson asks for clarity about
Conciliation which is just a settlement conference. It is strictly voluntary. Individuals may decline. After conciliation there is no next step. One could not pursue any further legal steps.
Again, Redman, leading down the wrong road. Just the beginning of oppressing business owners, taking away their rights. And we are overlooking the Christian Community. He also thinks the Christian Community is discriminated much more than the Homosexual community. Brings up Chik-fil-a and Kathy. Thinks there will be great problems to face if we face it. (we get it Redman!!!)
Schellenberg- This bill will create what is called a protected class. The difference is the availability of remedies to them in comparison to other groups. Schellenberg points out that so the bill in itself is discriminating by creating a protected class based on their sexual orientation. Elevating the group as a protected class but they are not getting the same protections under the law as other classes. Apparently, state laws don't require these protections.
Transgender has been taken out of the sexual orientation group. Interesting how Schellenberg referred to Transgenders as "he/his".
Points made that the bill can and will affect all groups and it is just the beginning.
Good to see you, Jimmy.
When something is called to question, and then voted on? What does that actually do??
This guy Redman calls on every meeting is really getting on my nerves. However, you could tell today he was struggling for answers. I feel like this whole meeting was mapped out by Daniels and Redman ahead of time.
Daniels, Reman, Schellenberg vote against 296.
Love, Jones, Crescimbeni, and Anderson vote for 296!! By their actions they are recommending the bill to Council.
See you tomorrow!!!!
I realize many cities don't even have this type of law on the books at all, but this bill is about as watered down as it gets.
If it can't get 10 votes in its present state, then it will be an insult to South Georgia to call Jacksonville its' capital.
This Chik-fil-a thing is really giving the other side a leg to stand on.
Lumb has disappointed me. He is asking the "go-to lawyer" was there anything stopping the HRC from keeping track of how many acts of discrimination are reported yearly. Lawyer-guy does not see anywhere in their charter stopping them. He says they could have kept track of the information if they wanted too or that there just aren't that many being reported in the first place.
Lawyer-guy points out that the wording is inaccurate because the choice to attend conciliation is not a choice because if they do not show up then the mark remains against them until an agreement is made.
Ha. Jones asked lawyer-guy if he was being compensated and who he was representing for his efforts in detouring the passing of 296. Lawyer-guy states he is not receiving a penny for his efforts. He is a part of a group of lawyers of like minds that are against passing these sorts of ordinances. He is a free agent.
Dr. Gaffney brings HRC Chief, Ms Hill, to the podium. Gaffney asks, In your professional opinion have you seen a proliferation of case loads or lawsuits due to ordinances like this one?
Hill, the commission has looked into this before people believed we did not study the issue. This law has been implemented in other counties to see what happened to them when a bill like this was introduced. They vary as the communities vary. Broward County had 23 cases in 2011 and in 2012 they had 8 cases. Most municipalities had between 2-10 cases per fiscal year. No, it's not a large number. I think most people want this because they know they have options to redress if they are discriminated against. The safety, the opportunity to have a neutral party look into their allegations.
Lumb thinks the number isn't high enough to justify creating an ordinance to deal with it. Want empirical evidence that were denied employment or lost their jobs. Ms. Hill again, no we don't have those numbers because people have not filed because they know the law is not there.
Joost, a little eager, move to substitute. Jones, many think this bill is divisive. Jones asks, how many people have to be discriminated against in order for us to justify passing this. one? five? ten? twenty? hundreds? Jones, this option is watered down but lets do this so we can see how serious the problem is and later we can strengthen the legislation when we have the numbers. The remedies are limited. Law suits have no basis. Religious groups are protected. This is about fairness, not whether you agree or disagree. This allows them recourse and about everyone in this city being treated equally.
Wow. Depressing. I like Lumb, but he has disappointed me on this one. I did not want to believe he would be against the gay community.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:28:18 PM
Dr. Gaffney brings HRC Chief, Ms Hill, to the podium. Gaffney asks, In your professional opinion have you seen a proliferation of case loads or lawsuits due to ordinances like this one?
Hill, the commission has looked into this before people believed we did not study the issue. This law has been implemented in other counties to see what happened to them when a bill like this was introduced. They vary as the communities vary. Broward County had 23 cases in 2011 and in 2012 they had 8 cases. Most municipalities had between 2-10 cases per fiscal year. No, it's not a large number. I think most people want this because they know they have options to redress if they are discriminated against. The safety, the opportunity to have a neutral party look into their allegations.
Lumb thinks the number isn't high enough to justify creating an ordinance to deal with it. Want empirical evidence that were denied employment or lost their jobs. Ms. Hill again, no we don't have those numbers because people have not filed because they know the law is not there.
Joost, a little eager, move to substitute. Jones, many think this bill is divisive. Jones asks, how many people have to be discriminated against in order for us to justify passing this. one? five? ten? twenty? hundreds? Jones, this option is watered down but lets do this so we can see how serious the problem is and later we can strengthen the legislation when we have the numbers. The remedies are limited. Law suits have no basis. Religious groups are protected. This is about fairness, not whether you agree or disagree. This allows them recourse and about everyone in this city being treated equally.
And clearly some of the Council people aren't having any part of everyone being treated equally.
Will remember this when they are seeking re-election.
You know, Timkin, I really am not sure what exactly his problem with it is. He seems interested in hearing about both sides and learning as much about the bill as he can, as well as he wants to learn about the LGBT community but he is voting against it. It's quite confusing.
Redman, Again, "A VOTE FOR THE SUBSTITUTE IS A VOTE FOR THE ORIGINAL." Whoever came up with that line for him, I want to punch you.
Carter, has a problem with the bill from a business point of view and from a personal point of view. Not that anyone should be discriminated against, but you cannot regulate morals and ethics.
Joost, i support the substitute. There is one fundamental question, is it right to fire someone because they are straight or gay. The answer is no. It is simple. Yes, we won't pretend. They are trying to start something here, to push this on and make it something else. But for us to decide is only if it is right for someone to be fired because of these things. And the answer is no. You don't want them teaching your kids, well it's fact they are. They just aren't telling anyone. I support the substitute. This is the right thing to do. I am glad Mr. Jones brought this up.
Redman asks if gay men can lead boy scouts. Jones brings Jimmy up to answer legally that the constitution states a gay man can be restricted from being a part of the boy scouts of America. Legally they have the right to only involve heterosexual christian men. Redman clearly doesn't trust lawyers on the LGBT side therefore asked a lawyer from his side to answer the question.
Jimmy, not that my opinion matters, but that was rude and I am sorry Redman is a Class-A jerk.
Gulliford, Laws like this erode our liberty a little more every time we pass one. This goes to far and protects others in ways other classes are not given. I have a problem with the number of 15 for a small business. I agree this bill takes away from others and our freedoms will be restricted by passing these bills.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
You know, Timkin, I really am not sure what exactly his problem with it is. He seems interested in hearing about both sides and learning as much about the bill as he can, as well as he wants to learn about the LGBT community but he is voting against it. It's quite confusing.
Then he really cannot be wanting to learn about or keep an open mind to, the LGBT community... just simply stating that he does, and certainly not in favor of us having rights (or he would favor the bill, seems to me) . Either you're for our equal rights , or against them. You can't have it both ways.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
Redman, Again, "A VOTE FOR THE SUBSTITUTE IS A VOTE FOR THE ORIGINAL." Whoever came up with that line for him, I want to punch you.
I would like to help. What a disappointing and bigoted representative for City Council.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
Carter, has a problem with the bill from a business point of view and from a personal point of view. Not that anyone should be discriminated against, but you cannot regulate morals and ethics.
Yet he IS trying to regulate , along with those in agreement with him, our equal rights. Priceless.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
Joost, i support the substitute. There is one fundamental question, is it right to fire someone because they are straight or gay. The answer is no. It is simple. Yes, we won't pretend. They are trying to start something here, to push this on and make it something else. But for us to decide is only if it is right for someone to be fired because of these things. And the answer is no. You don't want them teaching your kids, well it's fact they are. They just aren't telling anyone. I support the substitute. This is the right thing to do. I am glad Mr. Jones brought this up.
Thank you Mr. Joost. We appreciate your support.
Lumb is not supporting the bill because he genuinely believes as a matter of conscience. Instead of working to accomplish goals over time we introduce legislation's that we think should automatically be passed. I'm sympathetic, but as a legislator I just cannot back it.
Jones clarifies what the substitute does.
By your vote the substitute fails. 3-2.
Please, please, please!!! Someone take Redman's mic away!!! Chik-fil-a has not been harmed by the discrimination they have experienced recently. If anything their lines have been longer since then!!! It HELPED HIS BUSINESS! And, the thing that gets to me the most. Redman cannot get away from the moral issue with this bill. The only moral issue, Don, is that you think the Bible and Christians are the only people in this country that deserve to be treated equally. That is the only moral issue!
The bill is failed 4-1.
Voting for the bill Joost and Gaffney. Voting against the bill were Carter, Gulliford, and Redman.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:52:01 PM
Redman asks if gay men can lead boy scouts. Jones brings Jimmy up to answer legally that the constitution states a gay man can be restricted from being a part of the boy scouts of America. Legally they have the right to only involve heterosexual christian men. Redman clearly doesn't trust lawyers on the LGBT side therefore asked a lawyer from his side to answer the question.
Jimmy, not that my opinion matters, but that was rude and I am sorry Redman is a Class-A jerk.
Gulliford, Laws like this erode our liberty a little more every time we pass one. This goes to far and protects others in ways other classes are not given. I have a problem with the number of 15 for a small business. I agree this bill takes away from others and our freedoms will be restricted by passing these bills.
the sad truth is most men who molest boys are married and supposedly heterosexual. Just ask Sandusky.
I am going to make a horrible statement.
Redman is an ahole.
There are some people in the world that all you have to do is look at them and you know they are probably an ahole and Mr Redman is one of those people.
I ask that all those on this site forgive me for my name calling.
I just can't help it in this case.
(I also get the same feeling when I look at Clay Yarborough.)
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 04:04:44 PM
Lumb is not supporting the bill because he genuinely believes as a matter of conscience. Instead of working to accomplish goals over time we introduce legislation's that we think should automatically be passed. I'm sympathetic, but as a legislator I just cannot back it.
Jones clarifies what the substitute does.
By your vote the substitute fails. 3-2.
Please, please, please!!! Someone take Redman's mic away!!! Chik-fil-a has not been harmed by the discrimination they have experienced recently. If anything their lines have been longer since then!!! It HELPED HIS BUSINESS! And, the thing that gets to me the most. Redman cannot get away from the moral issue with this bill. The only moral issue, Don, is that you think the Bible and Christians are the only people in this country that deserve to be treated equally. That is the only moral issue!
The bill is failed 4-1.
The "Christians" prevail.
I'm curious, have other southern cities had to go through this many hoops to pass a bill like this?
Quote from: avonjax on August 07, 2012, 04:21:31 PM
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 07, 2012, 03:52:01 PM
Redman asks if gay men can lead boy scouts. Jones brings Jimmy up to answer legally that the constitution states a gay man can be restricted from being a part of the boy scouts of America. Legally they have the right to only involve heterosexual christian men. Redman clearly doesn't trust lawyers on the LGBT side therefore asked a lawyer from his side to answer the question.
Jimmy, not that my opinion matters, but that was rude and I am sorry Redman is a Class-A jerk.
Gulliford, Laws like this erode our liberty a little more every time we pass one. This goes to far and protects others in ways other classes are not given. I have a problem with the number of 15 for a small business. I agree this bill takes away from others and our freedoms will be restricted by passing these bills.
the sad truth is most men who molest boys are married and supposedly heterosexual. Just ask Sandusky.
I am going to make a horrible statement.
Redman is an ahole.
There are some people in the world that all you have to do is look at them and you know they are probably an ahole and Mr Redman is one of those people.
I ask that all those on this site forgive me for my name calling.
I just can't help it in this case.
(I also get the same feeling when I look at Clay Yarborough.)
Cannot disagree here. This panel is tremendously disappointing , and classic
Mayberry...err Jacksonville "Christian" Bigotry at its finest .
The thing that's lost on so many is this is NOT a religious issue. It's a human decency issue. Whatever your moral belief is it is morally wrong to discriminate against anyone. ANYONE.
If you are living with your girlfriend or boyfriend you are morally wrong according to the Bible.
Get drunk: Same
Lie: (All politicians lie, so all politicians are morally wrong. That includes you Mr Redman) Same
Steal: Same
Commit Adultery: Same
I won't go on we all know the rest.
But god forbid if you are gay.
You are the evil spawn of satan waiting in the shadows to seduce innocent heterosexuals.
Oh and did I mention you probably torture and kill puppies.
Next, his kind (and Daniels) will require anyone who is openly gay to be shocked into being straight ;)
If there is a silver lining to this , the time will come for them when THEIR god judges them . I wouldn't want to be any of them.
Quote from: avonjax on August 07, 2012, 04:33:06 PM
The thing that's lost on so many is this is NOT a religious issue. It's a human decency issue. Whatever your moral belief is it is morally wrong to discriminate against anyone. ANYONE.
If you are living with your girlfriend or boyfriend you are morally wrong according to the Bible.
Get drunk: Same
Lie: (All politicians lie, so all politicians are morally wrong. That includes you Mr Redman) Same
Steal: Same
Commit Adultery: Same
I won't go on we all know the rest.
But god forbid if you are gay.
You are the evil spawn of satan waiting in the shadows to seduce innocent heterosexuals.
Oh and did I mention you probably torture and kill puppies.
This especially applies to Redman and Daniels. Two hypocrites, if ever there was
I think I shared this Daniels story before but I'll share it again. She came into the retail establishment I work in and behaved like an evil B*^$h. Rude and awful. Everyone whispered as she left. Of course being the good guy I am, I told them who she was. If I was her I would mail a big fat check to the person her took the photo that she uses for all her promo stuff. SHE LOOKS NOTHING LIKE THAT. She looked like a hag. She had messed up hair and sloppy clothes.
I'm not saying this just to be mean or because I dislike her. After dealing with her hatefulness I really don't like her. I didn't know who she was at first and when I did all of her crazy hatefulness made perfect sense.
Sidebar
I'm watching the news and Rick (The alien crook) Scott is standing by Jennifer Carroll in that horrible off base accusation that she was diddling with another woman. (A little note to you Scott, you are a MAN, of the planet earth I'm not sure of, but a man nevertheless, so I don't think she will care too much.)
Let's face it, she is attractive and I'm sure she's having a fling with her aide or whoever it was.
When did it become law that a black lesbian, or bisexual had to be ugly?
Oh right this a Republican=Hypocrite thing.
There I go name calling again.
I swear everyone I am really a nice person.
I have met several people who frequent this site and they will vouch for me. (I guess/hope.)
Quote from: fsquid on August 07, 2012, 04:24:11 PM
I'm curious, have other southern cities had to go through this many hoops to pass a bill like this?
That's a good question. In Florida they certainly have by and large, I expect the rest of the south will be similar. The extent of resistance has varied depending on the locality. As such every city's ordinance is a bit different, as they've been tweaked to get it to pass (as we've done here). We are way behind the curve, however, way behind.
Quote from: avonjax on August 07, 2012, 05:18:14 PM
There I go name calling again.
I swear everyone I am really a nice person.
I have met several people who frequent this site and they will vouch for me. (I guess/hope.)
I wouldn't sweat it. Redman is pretty extraordinary in his capacity to embarrass the city.
Quote from: avonjax on August 07, 2012, 05:18:14 PM
There I go name calling again.
I swear everyone I am really a nice person.
I have met several people who frequent this site and they will vouch for me. (I guess/hope.)
I don't know that Ive met you, but Id like to. I think your assessment of Daniels is pretty much on the mark.
It is so incredibly sad that this City has the potential it has, and is kept in the dark ages and manipulated by the like of these individuals who probably take great pride in discrimination.
It is a lesson to me to be far more active come next election cycle and do my level best to see to it that they do not continue to be voted in.
While I do like CM Lumb, that he would even be reluctant on this bill is sad. He sure didn't mind the gay community casting their vote FOR him . But now that hes in , its okay to slap them in the face.
I expected as much of Redman and Daniels .
CM Jones will always have my respect. He tried his best and stood in our corner. My hat is off to the man.
so what is the status of the bill now after the 2-3 against vote?
Quote from: fsquid on August 07, 2012, 05:41:41 PM
so what is the status of the bill now after the 2-3 against vote?
The bill was approved in two committees yesterday by 4-3 vote in each committee. And of course it failed today in one committee by a vote of 3-2. The good news is, because the bill was heard by all of its committees and voted upon, it is now discharged from all three committees and is ready for its final vote at the full council meeting August 15.
if people want to help out in anyway, now would be a good time to email your council representatives and tell them to please vote in favor of 2012â€"296.
Thank you, AshleyLauren, for the good words. I wasn't offended by Mr. Redman today. That ship has long since sailed.
QuoteI wasn't offended by Mr. Redman today. That ship has long since sailed.
Well, you can be re-offended, can't you?
The thing is, you told him the very thing that he wanted to hear (regarding the Boy Scouts), but because it was the opinion of a gay man, it was not legitimate. Says a lot about him as a person, but nothing new.
That's a fair point, but I think my bar for being offended has been set pretty high over the last couple months by some of these city council members.
What a frustrating process.
Redmond lives downtown and runs unopposed so he continues to win by default, and Daniels someone who lives in her district needs to run against her. As long as it's the same ole same ole council in there year after it will continue to be a city that continues to move backwards
Fortunately, Redman is term-limited, and can't run next time around; same with Clay. Although I will be surprised if Yarborough doesn't run for Legislature.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on August 07, 2012, 09:03:02 PM
Fortunately, Redman is term-limited, and can't run next time around; same with Clay. Although I will be surprised if Yarborough doesn't run for Legislature.
Well there is at least a little bit of a silver lining.
Quote from: vicupstate on August 07, 2012, 06:21:04 PM
QuoteI wasn't offended by Mr. Redman today. That ship has long since sailed.
Well, you can be re-offended, can't you?
The thing is, you told him the very thing that he wanted to hear (regarding the Boy Scouts), but because it was the opinion of a gay man, it was not legitimate. Says a lot about him as a person, but nothing new.
Jimmy, if only we all had your sensibilities, but I agree with Vicupstate here. I swear he almost said, "Can I hear from a straight man?" Not, "Can I hear from the other man?". If I had been you I would have stood right there and waited for the other guys and when it was duplicated ask Mr. Redman if the straight answer sufficed?? Not to tell you how to feel. It really upset me though. That he is that ridiculous of human being. That he is that rude, ignorant, and down right despicable, and that he is allowed to represent the city of Jacksonville. His entire district should hide in their homes.
If anyone would like to show support, we're having a friends and family rally this afternoon from 6:30p - 8:00p at Memorial Park.
Would be glad to welcome our friends to the urban core to show support for a more inclusive Jacksonville. The vote Wednesday will be close.
https://www.facebook.com/events/252973074819947/
Today's the day. The Council vote on 2012-296 is expected to happen this afternoon.
If you'd like to make one last push to help us, check out the link below. 5 easy steps to email the whole council a final message of support.
http://jimmymidyette.com/post/29428689529/296-closing
so this is the end game? Pass or fail today, right?
Based on everything we've been told, today is the vote. Pass or fail.
Quote from: Jimmy on August 15, 2012, 11:26:55 AM
Today's the day. The Council vote on 2012-296 is expected to happen this afternoon.
If you'd like to make one last push to help us, check out the link below. 5 easy steps to email the whole council a final message of support.
http://jimmymidyette.com/post/29428689529/296-closing
Done! Good template Jimmy.
Quote from: Jimmy on August 15, 2012, 12:08:17 PM
Based on everything we've been told, today is the vote. Pass or fail.
Time to bring it home. After weeks, months, of covering this bill for MJC as an intern it has become a conversation in my day to day life. I have explained the bill to individuals, flat out argued with a few makebates, and cried over stories told. I am continually astonished by the members of our city council and the terrible, judgmental, tenuous, and naive arguments they have conjured up in their feeble attempt to detour the success of bill 296.
Tonight, pass or fail, it will be an emotional evening. To the LGBT community and council member Jones, hold your heads up high. The criticism you have endured during this time has only strengthened your power as a community and proven your abilities to overcome adversity while rising above the weak. Make no mistake no matter which side concedes tonight you have proven your worth to our city.
Thank you for your words, highly valued knowledge, and insightful Conversation with me about this bill. Hopefully, history is made tonight.
What are our thoughts about the children protesting???
how old are the kids?
I'm going to guess no younger than 12 but no older than 16-17.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 15, 2012, 02:40:21 PMHopefully, history is made tonight.
Unless they delay it to the next meeting or convert the bill into something else, either way, history will be made. For or against, each can only help Jacksonville.
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 15, 2012, 05:32:33 PM
I'm going to guess no younger than 12 but no older than 16-17.
If they are high schoolers I'm ok with it. Younger than that, the parents should be ashamed of themselves.
To be as clear as I can, I will post the paragraph that Councilman Yarborough referred to, which is a matter of public record. It was not the offer of a bribe; it was essentially the same message being sent to Councilmembers by the opponents of 296.
If someone can find the offer of a bribe in this, please point it out to me:
"I know that you have voted against 296 in Committee, or have otherwise indicated that you cannot support the bill, even as substituted. I ask you to please consider changing your mind tomorrow night, or consider abstaining from the vote. I am not asking you to compromise your principles, but I am asking you to consider that you have been elected to represent every person in Jacksonville on questions like this. I guarantee that you represent gays and lesbians who are looking to you to share their burden right now and make their journey through Jacksonville just a little easier. You have friends or family or customers or neighbors who are gay and lesbian and who are asking for your help right now. Help us now and we will remember your help each and every time you put your name forward for election to public office. We will help you then.
No matter what happens tomorrow night I appreciate your service to our great City. There is a tough road ahead with the budget, the economy, the pension, and discussions about public safety. I pray for your health and for your wisdom in the coming days and weeks as you work through some difficult decisions."
Here we go,
Lumb, 296 is not about sending the right message. Lumb believes 296 is not clear. This has nothing to do with basic human rights, it is about basic protection, and whether the level of discrimination has risen to the levels a group needs to be considered a protected class. Lumb points out that what is happening to the LGBT community is in no way equivalent to what happens to African Americans fifty years ago.
Yarborough- no substantial evidence has been provided to support the change of languages. Believes the added language is unconstitutional. Yarborough points out, allegedly, Jimmy Midyette offered his and his organization full support for the next election. Yarborough states, "This council member's vote is not for sale." The risk is too great, and lacks fluid. This is a solution in search of a problem.
Anderson-I am a Christian. The bill is not perfect, however it recognized many of our citizens are feeling pain. This bill is strongly supported by the Chamber of Commerce and the Civic Council as a part of job growth. This bill provides large enough tent to shade all of Jacksonville. Let it end here, we have many battles ahead of us. I will support the bill.
Gulliford- The passing of this bill would not stop the discrimination or even detour it. This legislation goes too far.
Jones-Stands to support the bill. He appreciates the council's patience. It may look like this bill is divisive. This is the first step to create a society empowered by redress. I ask you to support the substitute.
Lee- Call to question. Fails.
Redman-I rise to not support the substitute or the bill. Throughout his later years he has watched the rapid deterioration of the community and people's morals code based on the passing of bills like these. This bill will affect our children and our grandchildren.
Daniels-Asks them not to support the bill. Sexual orientation, sexual expression, all bad language.
Subsitute Vote: 10 nays 9 yays.
Original Vote:
Original bill was put down 17 to 2.
Members of the opposing side leaped in a loud uproar and one member of the supporting side left screaming at the City Council members.
Most of the room is leaving now. The looks on the faces of the members of the LGBT community is saddening.
17-2? Jesus
One vote. Interesting.
Quote from: fsquid on August 15, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
17-2? Jesus
On the original bill that was entirely expected. On the substitute, I am pretty sure they were expecting it to be the opposite of how it just unfolded. Among the no's were: Lumb, Gulliford, Daniels, Yarborough, Redman, I think Bishop, Brown, Anderson, Boyer and I am not sure who the 10th vote came from.
If you want to read bill...
http://cityclts.coj.net/coj/COJBillList.asp?Bill=2012-0296
Quote from: Jimmy on August 15, 2012, 06:01:59 PM
To be as clear as I can, I will post the paragraph that Councilman Yarborough referred to, which is a matter of public record. It was not the offer of a bribe; it was essentially the same message being sent to Councilmembers by the opponents of 296.
If someone can find the offer of a bribe in this, please point it out to me:
"I know that you have voted against 296 in Committee, or have otherwise indicated that you cannot support the bill, even as substituted. I ask you to please consider changing your mind tomorrow night, or consider abstaining from the vote. I am not asking you to compromise your principles, but I am asking you to consider that you have been elected to represent every person in Jacksonville on questions like this. I guarantee that you represent gays and lesbians who are looking to you to share their burden right now and make their journey through Jacksonville just a little easier. You have friends or family or customers or neighbors who are gay and lesbian and who are asking for your help right now. Help us now and we will remember your help each and every time you put your name forward for election to public office. We will help you then.
No matter what happens tomorrow night I appreciate your service to our great City. There is a tough road ahead with the budget, the economy, the pension, and discussions about public safety. I pray for your health and for your wisdom in the coming days and weeks as you work through some difficult decisions."
I did not realize that, you scratch my back and I will scratch yours, is considered bribing someone these days. It's how the world works. It is not bribery!
This is the saddest, most disheartening council vote I've seen in a long time. And given the current sorry state of affairs, that's really saying something.
Condemnation goes first and foremost to the ten City Council members who fell to willful ignorance, bigotry, moral weakness, and in several cases, outright stupidity and voted down a bill that should have passed at a glance.
Right behind them is our pitiable Mayor, whose pathetic and cowardly refusal to stand up for this bill will not soon be forgotten. I've never been so disappointed with a mayor in all my life.
Next come the organized bigots who, through the force of their volume, made our elected leaders kowtow to their regressive interests. Not to mention the religious Pharisees who abused scripture, or their interpretation of it, to demean and belittle an entire segment of the populace.
Accolades go to the nine council members who did not break under the pressure and stood up for what's right. I am especially proud of my father and all the others who publicly pushed for this bill, though they had absolutely nothing to gain personally. Would that there were more men and women of their character in this city.
This isn't over. Justice will reign in the end.
so how does one get it reintroduced?
After the vote a woman leaned over and asked me which side I was on, upon answering her question, she explained her biggest issue with the bill was that anyone could pretend to be lesbian or gay and therefore be a part of this protected class. I cannot begin to express how ridiculous this statement is.
I am sure thoughts/comments about this bill will be ongoing, and the hurt inflicted by this vote will be felt until the council and the LGBT community meet again.
It is severely distressing that after months of conversation, meetings, news articles, arguments, and explanations that individuals in this city still did not know what this bill would do for our city, for members of our city. The ten members of the City Council that voted against the substitute should be ashamed of themselves. The original bill, perhaps, was too fast. Perhaps, the original bill was too much for the members to deal with right away; however, the substitute had been whittled and watered down until basically nothing of the original was left and even that posed too severe of a threat for the religious partisans of this city to sway.
The city should be offended, the city should be ashamed, the city should take heed and remember this in the months to come.
To the LGBT community, Again, I stand in awe of your struggle and your strength. My respect and thoughts are with you as you mourn your loss, and then breathe and reboot. Jimmy Midyette has already expressed his feelings on behalf of the Jacksonville Committee for Equality that they are not finished and they intend to press on.
In the words of Timkin, For now "Mayberry Lives".
Ashley, well said ... except you are insulting the town of Mayberry.
So Democrat Johnny Gaffney flipflopped after previously voting for the bill. Hmm, I wonder if he was pressured into it?
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 15, 2012, 06:25:27 PM
Quote from: fsquid on August 15, 2012, 06:19:30 PM
17-2? Jesus
On the original bill that was entirely expected. On the substitute, I am pretty sure they were expecting it to be the opposite of how it just unfolded. Among the no's were: Lumb, Gulliford, Daniels, Yarborough, Redman, I think Bishop, Brown, Anderson, Boyer and I am not sure who the 10th vote came from.
as I understand it, Gaffney was the turncoat tonight...now I understand that the LGBT lifestyle is very unpopular in African-American churches, but he had previosuly voiced support....so Gaffney now deserves many calls/emails to his office expressing disappointment
Quote from: stephendare on August 15, 2012, 09:27:27 PM
Ive generally stayed out of this, but tonight confirmed for me a fundamental truth that has become glaringly obvious over the past year or so of misgovernment.
The institutions that we all own in common have been abandoned by the kind of people and leadership qualified to run them, and it is not going to get any better until we can shove a number of these fools and ideologues out of the way and put in panels of people who really care about this city and the people who live in it.
Tonight was the final straw for me with a few of this misadventurers and assgoblins. I don't really have such high expectations of city council people---its local politics, I feel. Not really rocket science, shouldnt really require that much education or even common sense in order to make things basically work.
How much effort does it take, really, to fix potholes, contribute to worthy causes, decide to build roads, maintain the parks and write cute little affirmations? After all, you don't need to fly in Stephen Hawking to pronounce that Miss Teen Jacksonville is indeed pretty, or recognize the hard work that electrical line men have to do every day to keep power and lights on.
So it would take a special level of disappointing before I personally get worked up about it.
Tonight managed that for me.
We have a few good councilpeople.
Ray Holt and Stephen Joost seem to have a good head on their shoulders.
Denise Lee and Warren Jones are sensitive to the actual people who are alive and breathing in the areas that they represent.
Reggie Brown is a careful and often passionate representative of ordinary citizens.
Lori Boyer actually verges on brilliant.
Councilmen Robinson and Doyle Carter are sweet and affable and at least aren't out to screw anyone or be a detriment to their city.
But then what about the rest of the dreck?
A former lesbian crackwhore who now thinks she is a prophet of god sent to afflict the sinful.
A closeted gay baptist man boy whose most substantial achievement so far is to feign outrage at naughty pictures he saw in folio magazine.
A functionally illiterate, hateful old crank who is permanently against anything other than the narrow membership spectrum available in his church.
A scorekeeping, cranky misanthrope who only seems to have run for office specifically to settle old political debts
A vacillating insurance selling tool of a neighborhood group, who secretly sponsored and introduced anti business legislation affecting the very business district he himself does business in after being bullied into it by prominent neighborhood residents.
2 intelligent ideologues who are so in pawn to national/federal ideology that they have proven themselves literally unable to govern on the city level.
An elegaic bigot from the beaches
Literally, a blithering hateful idiot from Mandarin. Tonight he embarrassed the city by suggesting that someone should not be employed by jacksonville because he personally hates the potential employees wife.
which leaves Johnny Gaffney and Richard Clark.
Redman and Yarborough alone have been a running embarrassment to the city nationally through their bizarre, movie style bigotry and ignorance.
Kim Daniels is a hot mess, no matter who you are, or how you look at it.
and we have two more years of these idiots.
Where we should be figuring out how to refocus this city, implement a sustainable economy, fix our broken transit and transportation system, reawaken the creative juices that once powered the city of jacksonville, figure out how we can network and compete with cities higher up on the food chain, preserve our heritage and landscape, and improve the futures of our children, instead we are listening to Kim Daniels speculate about fucking corpses in egypt and whether or not that would be applicable to firing gay people for being gay in Duval County. Did this kind of nonsense occur to her when she was turning tricks for crack rock?
We are seething along as Robin Lumb explains why he needs to suspend the funding mechanism for transportation in Riverside Avondale (the mobility fee) in order to create jobs that never materialized, and then turn around and vote against new businesses opening in his district because transportation hasnt been properly funded or handled.
We are watching the two representatives of Jacksonville's most LGBT settled district---riverside avondale---vote for discrimination against their own constituents. Yes, gay Jacksonville, Jim Love and Robin Lumb voted against you, because you are less than them and you apparently do not vote.
Sorry to be so personal about this, but I wanted to make the point.
These people are fools and fanatics, and they have no place getting elected because we are all sitting around letting it happen.
One or two fools on a council isnt always a terrible thing. They can provide comic relief and often serve to ask the seriously stupid questions that all the rest of us are too embarrassed to ask ourselves. But a majority of them?
If you want to see a better future, we are going to have to start looking for candidates and people willing to run for office that have at least some common sense. Seriously. No more fools, fanatics, or freaks.
We have a couple right here on this site. (Mike Field, Ennis Davis, Christina Parrish, Nicole Lopez, Amanda Searle, Bill Killingsworth, Steve Lovett, Jimmy Midyette, Arash Kamiar, and you too, Matt Carlucci----im talking about you)
Lord please deliver us from this plague of idiots and please forgive us for whatever we did that made us deserve them.
Perhaps we should have all been a little bit nicer to Sam Moussa. ;)
Good post Stephen some of what you said was a bit personal. But now you see the reason Jacksonville Fl. will be the town that just doesn't get it? Is this because of First Baptist Church I'm not sure. But I do like most of what you have said in this posting. :)
When I moved to Jacksonville three years ago it took me about two weeks to take the temperature of the climate here.
I came on here and told people I felt Jacksonville was a lot of 'bad' things. I threw around words like 'redneck', 'hick', 'overly religious', 'backward', etc.
I was villified. I was ridiculed. It has caused people to disregard my other opinions because of it. It has caused people to attack me personally.
No one should be surprised about this decision. This is the Jacksonville we live in.
It still amazes me how 'surprised' people can be at things like this.
And before anyone starts the, "there goes bigguy running his mouth again," I was not against 296.
^Run along, troll. The adults are busy right now.
Stephen - excellently written. Tonight was an embarrassment for the City by the Council - and this is a City Council that excels in being an embarrassment.
This goes beyond the city council. The mayor is culpable too, as are various other backward interests.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 15, 2012, 10:09:11 PM
^Run along, troll. The adults are busy right now.
Thank you for proving my point
Quote from: TacachaleThis goes beyond the city council. The mayor is culpable to, as are various other backward interests.
Glad to see you're on board with at least one of my adjectives though!
"This town needs an enema!" Seems a most appropriate quote. I was born and raised here. I have moved away but due to financial circumstance I have been drug back to this pit of Hell. This vote by the city council does not surprise me. It is a town of religious zealots in public while being hypocrites in private. Know your history. This town can't pull its head out of its own ass with a chain and a come-along. I was very disappointed with Mayor Alvin Brown. I voted for him and had high hopes for his leadership, but he has done nothing but disappoint me yet again.
Brshould very likely pleased with this, as now the bill won't come across his desk so he'd have to make a decision to veto or not veto. He made it clear he didn't want the bill to happen to begin with... And now it won't.
Until the next cycle, that is.
Don't you find it shocking that Jax is the only major city in Florida without this ordinance in place?
This is where I take issue with social conservatism in the South. I know that these well-meaning politicians voted according to their conscience, but I wonder if active discrimination against taxpaying citizens also violates our consciences as well. Have protected minorities abused this ordinance in the past? If not, then this is a non-issue. If there have been frivolous lawsuits filed by currently-protected minorities, have we considered repealing the current human rights ordinance that we already have? Atlanta moved forward significantly in the 1950s by labeling itself as the city that was 'too busy to hate.' A business-friendly environment stands on the foundation of a community that is open to all who want to help build a strong city. I am disappointed mostly because the deck has been stacked against socially progressive issues in our city because being tagged a 'liberal' in any form is the kiss of death for local politicians. I have said all along that we need more balance in our local politics to give a greater voice to all people who have productive solutions to our city's problems. I hope that the councilman from the Beaches follows through on his wishes that our city government take a public relations route to show sexual minorities that they indeed are appreciated members of our community...
Quote from: stephendare on August 15, 2012, 09:27:27 PM
Ive generally stayed out of this, but tonight confirmed for me a fundamental truth that has become glaringly obvious over the past year or so of misgovernment.
The institutions that we all own in common have been abandoned by the kind of people and leadership qualified to run them, and it is not going to get any better until we can shove a number of these fools and ideologues out of the way and put in panels of people who really care about this city and the people who live in it.
Tonight was the final straw for me with a few of this misadventurers and assgoblins. I don't really have such high expectations of city council people---its local politics, I feel. Not really rocket science, shouldnt really require that much education or even common sense in order to make things basically work.
How much effort does it take, really, to fix potholes, contribute to worthy causes, decide to build roads, maintain the parks and write cute little affirmations? After all, you don't need to fly in Stephen Hawking to pronounce that Miss Teen Jacksonville is indeed pretty, or recognize the hard work that electrical line men have to do every day to keep power and lights on.
So it would take a special level of disappointing before I personally get worked up about it.
Tonight managed that for me.
We have a few good councilpeople.
Ray Holt and Stephen Joost seem to have a good head on their shoulders.
Denise Lee and Warren Jones are sensitive to the actual people who are alive and breathing in the areas that they represent.
Reggie Brown is a careful and often passionate representative of ordinary citizens.
Lori Boyer actually verges on brilliant.
Councilmen Robinson and Doyle Carter are sweet and affable and at least aren't out to screw anyone or be a detriment to their city.
But then what about the rest of the dreck?
A former lesbian crackwhore who now thinks she is a prophet of god sent to afflict the sinful.
A closeted gay baptist man boy whose most substantial achievement so far is to feign outrage at naughty pictures he saw in folio magazine.
A functionally illiterate, hateful old crank who is permanently against anything other than the narrow membership spectrum available in his church.
A scorekeeping, cranky misanthrope who only seems to have run for office specifically to settle old political debts
A vacillating insurance selling tool of a neighborhood group, who secretly sponsored and introduced anti business legislation affecting the very business district he himself does business in after being bullied into it by prominent neighborhood residents.
2 intelligent ideologues who are so in pawn to national/federal ideology that they have proven themselves literally unable to govern on the city level.
An elegaic bigot from the beaches
Literally, a blithering hateful idiot from Mandarin. Tonight he embarrassed the city by suggesting that someone should not be employed by jacksonville because he personally hates the potential employees wife.
which leaves Johnny Gaffney and Richard Clark.
Redman and Yarborough alone have been a running embarrassment to the city nationally through their bizarre, movie style bigotry and ignorance.
Kim Daniels is a hot mess, no matter who you are, or how you look at it.
and we have two more years of these idiots.
Where we should be figuring out how to refocus this city, implement a sustainable economy, fix our broken transit and transportation system, reawaken the creative juices that once powered the city of jacksonville, figure out how we can network and compete with cities higher up on the food chain, preserve our heritage and landscape, and improve the futures of our children, instead we are listening to Kim Daniels speculate about fucking corpses in egypt and whether or not that would be applicable to firing gay people for being gay in Duval County. Did this kind of nonsense occur to her when she was turning tricks for crack rock?
We are seething along as Robin Lumb explains why he needs to suspend the funding mechanism for transportation in Riverside Avondale (the mobility fee) in order to create jobs that never materialized, and then turn around and vote against new businesses opening in his district because transportation hasnt been properly funded or handled.
We are watching the two representatives of Jacksonville's most LGBT settled district---riverside avondale---vote for discrimination against their own constituents. Yes, gay Jacksonville, Jim Love and Robin Lumb voted against you, because you are less than them and you apparently do not vote.
Sorry to be so personal about this, but I wanted to make the point.
These people are fools and fanatics, and they have no place getting elected because we are all sitting around letting it happen.
One or two fools on a council isnt always a terrible thing. They can provide comic relief and often serve to ask the seriously stupid questions that all the rest of us are too embarrassed to ask ourselves. But a majority of them?
If you want to see a better future, we are going to have to start looking for candidates and people willing to run for office that have at least some common sense. Seriously. No more fools, fanatics, or freaks.
We have a couple right here on this site. (Mike Field, Ennis Davis, Christina Parrish, Nicole Lopez, Amanda Searle, Bill Killingsworth, Steve Lovett, Jimmy Midyette, Arash Kamiar, and you too, Matt Carlucci----im talking about you)
Lord please deliver us from this plague of idiots and please forgive us for whatever we did that made us deserve them.
Perhaps we should have all been a little bit nicer to Sam Moussa. ;)
There is absolutely nothing I can add to this,, except utter embarrassment that I actually VOTED for some of these people. Tonight I deeply regret it.
It is a wake up call for me. Not to Patronize Stephen ( I don't have to, he is spot on in his assessment of the situation)..
I will work my ass off during the next election cycle to help see that these individuals do not represent us in Council on the next cycle.
If the final decision of this bill is not the root of Bigotry , Hatred, and Discrimination, I have no idea, what could be.
"Mayberry" was a joke. This is a little more like the mentality of Waldo.
JUST ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.
Quote from: CharleyNovember on August 15, 2012, 10:25:49 PM
"This town needs an enema!" Seems a most appropriate quote. I was born and raised here. I have moved away but due to financial circumstance I have been drug back to this pit of Hell. This vote by the city council does not surprise me. It is a town of religious zealots in public while being hypocrites in private. Know your history. This town can't pull its head out of its own ass with a chain and a come-along. I was very disappointed with Mayor Alvin Brown. I voted for him and had high hopes for his leadership, but he has done nothing but disappoint me yet again.
Another DEEP REGRET , I have.
I am a bit hazy on this topic, what does the Federal Anti-discriminatory statute not have in it, that this bill would have had in it? What is the state of Florida's anti-discriminatory language?
If we all have to drink our Obamacare, should the Federal statute trump a local or state statute?
I wish I had the energy to write all the things I would like to say, but I am sooo sad and depressed right now I don't.
I haven't slept since watching the most embarrassing thing I have ever witnessed. I just honestly hope we all remember this at election time, and can find some indivduals with intelligence, class, and common sense to vote for. Let's fix this abomination that is the City Coucil once and for all.
Quote from: avonjax on August 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
Don't you find it shocking that Jax is the only major city in Florida without this ordinance in place?
not really, as we are consolidated....I highly doubt a bill like this would have passed in Tampa if the city was consolidated with Hillsborough County
on another note....I've seen some folks (especially on the MJ Facebook page) hammering on Jim Love for voting against the bill....fact is he voted down the original bill (as 16 others did too) but first voted in favor of the substitute bill.
Here's the list from the T-U
Quote
The council voted 10-9 against a substitute bill that removed some of the controversial provisions in the original bill.
For the substitute: John Crescimbeni, Stephen Joost, Greg Anderson, Lori Boyer, Warren Jones, Jim Love, Bill Bishop, Richard Clark, Denise Lee
Against: Kimberly Daniels, Robin Lumb, Clay Yarborough, Don Redman, Matt Schellenberg, Ray Holt, Doyle Carter, Bill Gulliford, Reggie Brown, Johnny Gaffney
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-15/story/jacksonville-council-denies-human-rights-ordinance-expansion#ixzz23iBJKF12
the turncoat here is CM Gaffney
Quote from: Jaxson on August 15, 2012, 11:17:04 PM
I know that these well-meaning politicians voted according to their conscience
I doubt that. More likely these small-minded bigots voted to pander to their equally small-minded constituents.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 16, 2012, 08:29:59 AM
Quote from: avonjax on August 15, 2012, 11:10:29 PM
Don't you find it shocking that Jax is the only major city in Florida without this ordinance in place?
not really, as we are consolidated....I highly doubt a bill like this would have passed in Tampa if the city was consolidated with Hillsborough County
on another note....I've seen some folks (especially on the MJ Facebook page) hammering on Jim Love for voting against the bill....fact is he voted down the original bill (as 16 others did too) but first voted in favor of the substitute bill.
Here's the list from the T-U
Quote
The council voted 10-9 against a substitute bill that removed some of the controversial provisions in the original bill.
For the substitute: John Crescimbeni, Stephen Joost, Greg Anderson, Lori Boyer, Warren Jones, Jim Love, Bill Bishop, Richard Clark, Denise Lee
Against: Kimberly Daniels, Robin Lumb, Clay Yarborough, Don Redman, Matt Schellenberg, Ray Holt, Doyle Carter, Bill Gulliford, Reggie Brown, Johnny Gaffney
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-15/story/jacksonville-council-denies-human-rights-ordinance-expansion#ixzz23iBJKF12
the turncoat here is CM Gaffney
Oh, don't come in here with your lame apologetics implying this isn't a disaster. It is. We're now the only significant city in the state, and one of the few in the country, that doesn't offer these basic protections to the LGBT community.
This is a problem for everyone.
Stephen, Love is one of the good guys here, as much as any of them besides Warren Jones can be. He was one of the nine who voted for the amended version of the bill.
And Gaffney most certainly is the Judas of the piece. He previously voted for the stronger version of the bill, but last night he voted against the weaker amended version. There is a reason for his flip-flopping. Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.
Jacksonville!!!
Hicksonville! Hateville!
Well now, really?
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-he-was-confused-voted
^You beat me too it.
That interview really deserves its own thread. Wow.
If that interview was televised, it would have sounded a lot like this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj3iNxZ8Dww)
I hope all my friends in Springfield are paying attention. Unreal.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 16, 2012, 08:58:54 AM
Oh, don't come in here with your lame apologetics implying this isn't a disaster. It is. We're now the only significant city in the state, and one of the few in the country, that doesn't offer these basic protections to the LGBT community. This is a problem for everyone.
sorry...I was hardly implying that the vote wasn't a disaster...just that it was obvious from early on that the origional bill wasn't going to pass...so the bill was tweaked and folks thought Gaffney was in favor
wait...and now we hear that Gaffney was confused?
how can this be when they've been discussing this bill for months!
I would say one of the major reasons that this bill failed was because people don't see any value in it. Remember, Jacksonville is a city that depends on it's natural resources (location, port, land, highways, river) to survive. If it's not the natural resources, it's the government that pays most the salaries here.
The community this bill targets is well known for it's creative, artistic, educated, and intellectually driven mindset. Those are great traits for a creative and knowledge based economy. These are also great traits for a financial based economy. This has very little value in Jacksonville. If there were more creative industries, then the vote would have gone the other way.
The bottom line here is that people in Jacksonville don't see any value in this bill nor for the community this bill protects. That's why the vote went the way it did.
The good news is is that the failure of this bill can rally like minded people. It could be the fuel for an economic boom as more people with similar ideals to move here. Remember, it was not really long ago when Jacksonville did the same thing with the KKK. How else do you end up with a brand new school named "Nathan Bedford Forrest High School"? Jacksonville will still be fine. Even if this economic boom doesn't happen, it still has it's natural resources it can live off of for a couple more decades.
apparently much went on before the vote yesterday....and there may have been some back room deals.
I hear there will be at least one editorial / letter to the editor in tomorrow's paper regarding the vote
Maybe Clay's comment last night was prophetic, but poorly aimed?
Here's Gaffney trying to explain himself, and then calling off the interview when they ask some real questions. Just try to read the whole thing without facepalming.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-councilman-after-human-rights-vote-confused-voted-way-i
Oh, Gaffney.
Seriously, I did not think it could get much worse, but this is an absolute embarrassment. Frankly, WHAT THE EFF WERE YOU CONFUSED ABOUT!!!! Hundreds of people in the room that have never attended a CC meeting knew exactly what was going on.
Also, I am sorry but the moment Kim Daniels sat down after only speaking for 15 seconds I knew something was up and that the vote had been swayed. Otherwise, you all know damn well if that woman knew it was going the other way she would have attempted to stop it somehow. This is the first meeting in the three months we have been to that she has not talked more than anyone else.
Quote from: Jimmy on August 16, 2012, 02:41:29 PM
I hope all my friends in Springfield are paying attention. Unreal.
Fortuantely, he'll be terming out next election cycle.
How embarrassing for him.
Oops?
Quote from: cityimrov on August 16, 2012, 03:02:03 PM
I would say one of the major reasons that this bill failed was because people don't see any value in it. Remember, Jacksonville is a city that depends on it's natural resources (location, port, land, highways, river) to survive. If it's not the natural resources, it's the government that pays most the salaries here.
The community this bill targets is well known for it's creative, artistic, educated, and intellectually driven mindset. Those are great traits for a creative and knowledge based economy. These are also great traits for a financial based economy. This has very little value in Jacksonville. If there were more creative industries, then the vote would have gone the other way.
The bottom line here is that people in Jacksonville don't see any value in this bill nor for the community this bill protects. That's why the vote went the way it did.
The good news is is that the failure of this bill can rally like minded people. It could be the fuel for an economic boom as more people with similar ideals to move here. Remember, it was not really long ago when Jacksonville did the same thing with the KKK. How else do you end up with a brand new school named "Nathan Bedford Forrest High School"? Jacksonville will still be fine. Even if this economic boom doesn't happen, it still has it's natural resources it can live off of for a couple more decades.
Like minded people won't bother fighting it, or simply don't have the numbers to do so. The city already goes out of its way to chase away creative, educated people, whether gay or straight. This certainly won't help. Those people will just continue to do what they've always done: not move here.
Want my advice? Leave it to the uneducated, god fearing fools to let them wallow in their own mess & run. Run as fast as you can.
Quote from: Jimmy on August 16, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
Maybe Clay's comment last night was prophetic, but poorly aimed?
those who have noted the Mayor's silence on the issue may be on to something
Jacksonville is an odd city. It looks like most the people here don't want to strive for anything. Not even for their own religion. I compare what the highly religious people in Jacksonville did vs the ones in Salt Lake City and I see a world of difference. The ones in Salt Lake City drove architecture, engineering, and education to new heights. While people obviously disagree with them with quite a lot of their beliefs, you just can't help but marvel at their works.
I'm still not sure what most people in Jacksonville do.
Quote
SALT LAKE CITY (AP) â€" The Mormon church for the first time has announced its support of gay rights legislation, an endorsement that helped gain unanimous approval for Salt Lake City laws banning discrimination against gays in housing and employment.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-11-11-utah-gayrights_N.htm
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 16, 2012, 09:07:16 PM
Quote from: Jimmy on August 16, 2012, 05:21:06 PM
Maybe Clay's comment last night was prophetic, but poorly aimed?
those who have noted the Mayor's silence on the issue may be on to something
I'm too riled to be cryptic. Gaffney was clearly pushed to change his vote behind the scenes.
What a clusterfuck of a City Council. Seriously.
Wow, this is really not a positive moment for Jacksonville. Frankly, it's so negative that a lot of other negative news impacting other southern cities seems trite.
All the bill/substitute was trying to be was a 1st step to essentially start a conversation about equal rights for gays.
It did make me do quick and dirty research on other southern cities that protect gays. Apparently it is not safe to be gay anywhere in AL, even in Birmingham. The governor of TN just overturned a measure by Nashville and prohibited other local governments as well from enforcing a law preventing discrimination against gays. Apparently nationally we can have laws that prohibit private companies or even just plain people from showing any discrimination against those with other religions, races/colors, genders, age, or even AIDS, but the governor of TN thought Nashville was going too far by banning private discrimination based on sexuality or gender identity within its own municipal bounds.
Such is the hardship the gay community faces in the south. In AL, hate crimes are essentially not possible as Republicans there don't believe in enhanced penalties for crimes against certain groups of people, but penalties are enhanced for crimes on or against Christian churches.
In FL I think we all remember the adoption law struggle and controversy, but I believe there are municipalities in SoFla that are from a legal standpoint pretty gay friendly.
QuoteHowever, several Florida cities and counties such as Miami Beach, Dade County, and Broward County have ordinances offering some protections for gays and lesbians.
It seems in the south Miami and Atlanta are the only major cities where gays are afforded some basic rights.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/tenant-rights-sexual-orientation-discrimination-29843.html
QuoteCalifornia, Connecticut, the District of Columbia, Hawaii, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, Rhode Island, Vermont, and Wisconsin have laws prohibiting discrimination against gays or lesbians. California, Connecticut, Minnesota, New Mexico, Rhode Island, and New York City also protect transgender folks. In addition, many cities have passed laws that make discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation illegal, including Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, Miami, New York, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Seattle.
And
http://www.transgenderlaw.org/ndlaws/index.htm#jurisdictions
Quote
States: 16 + DC
Cities and counties: 143
Total 160
Year Jurisdiction
2011
State of Nevada
State of Connecticut
State of Massachusettes
Susquehanna Township, PA
2009
Nashville, Tennessee
Kalamazoo, MI
2008
Broward, FL
Columbia, SC
Detroit, MI
Gainesville, FL
Hamtramck, MI
Kansas City, MO
Oxford, OH
2007
State of Colorado
State of Iowa
Lake Worth, FL
Milwaukee, WI
Palm Beach County, FL
State of Oregon
Saugatuck, MI
State of Vermont
West Palm Beach, FL
2006
Bloomington, IN
Cincinnati, OH
Easton, PA<
Ferndale, MI
Hillsboro, OR
Johnson County, IA
King County, WA
Lansdowne, PA
Lansing, MI
State of New Jersey
Swarthmore, PA
State of Washington
West Chester, PA
2005
Gulfport, FL
State of Hawaii*
State of Illinois
Indianapolis, IN
Lincoln City, OR
State of Maine
Northampton, MA
Washington, DC
2004
Albany, NY
Austin, TX
Beaverton, OR
Bend, OR
Burien, WA
Oakland, CA
Miami Beach, FL
Tompkins County, NY
2003
State of California
State of New Mexico
Carbondale, IL
Covington, KY
El Paso, TX
Ithaca, NY
Key West, FL
Lake Oswego, OR
Monroe Co., FL
Oakland, CA
Peoria, IL
San Diego, CA
Scranton, PA
Springfield, IL
University City, MO
2002
Allentown, PA
Baltimore, MD
Boston, MA
Buffalo, NY
Chicago, IL
Cook County, IL
Dallas, TX
Decatur, IL
East Lansing, MI
Erie County, PA
New Hope, PA
New York City, NY
Philadelphia, PA
Salem, OR
Tacoma, WA
2001
Denver, CO
Huntington Woods, MI
Multnomah Co., OR
State of Rhode Island
Rochester, NY
Suffolk County, NY
2000
Atlanta, GA
Boulder, CO
DeKalb, IL
Madison, WI
Portland, OR
1999
Ann Arbor, MI
Jefferson County, KY
Lexington-Fayette Co., KY
Louisville, KY
Tucson, AZ
1998
Benton County, OR
Santa Cruz County, CA
New Orleans, LA
Toledo, OH
West Hollywood, CA
York, PA
1997
Cambridge, MA
Evanston, IL
Olympia, WA
Pittsburgh, PA
Ypsilanti, MI
1996
Iowa City, IA
1994
Grand Rapids, MI
San Francisco, CA
1993
State of Minnesota
1992
Santa Cruz, CA
1990
St. Paul, MN
1986
Seattle, WA
1983
Harrisburg, PA
1979
Los Angeles, CA.
Urbana, IL
1977
Champaign, IL
1975
Minneapolis, MN
And finally, I know here in Atlanta:
http://www.atlantaga.gov/media/domesticpartners_060403.aspx
QuoteA few municipal entities, such as Atlanta, maintain a domestic partnerships registry for city employees who are in both same-sex and opposite sex cohabiting couples.[1]
The implications are that a whole segment of society will flock in large part to a select few cosmopolitan or gay-friendly cities/states, leaving a dearth of artists, young professionals, creative types and some of the best party people out of most places, I suppose including Jacksonville. Unfortunately, the discriminatory and embarassing attitude found in Jacksonville is relatively commonplace around the country, and it really takes a big city attitute (or as we should call it a judicious approach to humanity) to overcome it.
Here you see splintering in both maps. One is a city vs its suburbs, but the city is small and uniform and the suburbs are large and pretty uniform. Still separate. The first map is the recently failed and huge press transportation tax for metro Atlanta. If the City of Atlanta wanted to pass its own, it most likely could (we already pay 1% for transit, so it would be for 2%, our fuggin state refuses to pay for infrastructure even though it's growing so fast and it regulates MARTA which it does not fund and refuses to allow the city/county to have a say in how MARTA funding is split between operations and capital).
The second map is of Jacksonville, showing very distinct voting patterns. It's a splintered city that might as well be 3 cities. The northside, which would never survive on its own, the inner core along the riverfront, and the vast suburbs. Unfortunately for Jacksonville, the city can't supercede its suburbs because they are one and the same.
Also unfortunately for Jacksonville some council members from the most liberal and gay-friendly areas STILL voted for discrimination against gays, their constituents. That was probably the most unfortunate aspect of the vote.
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/atlanta/real_talk/Screen%20Shot%202012-08-06%20at%2010.51.08%20AM.png?v=1)
(http://jax-cdn.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/lead_photo_wide/MayorTopVoteGetters032211A_0.jpg)
Another thing about Jim Love and the other Republicans who supported the amended bill, this is the kind of thing they have to deal with from some segments of their party:
Quote
And the six Republicans â€" Stephen Joost, Greg Anderson, Lori Boyer, Jim Love, Bill Bishop and Richard Clark â€" who voted in favor the legislation will come under fire as well.
“We will make sure we expose the Republicans who were basically traitors,†said Raymond Johnson II, a political consultant and president of a conservative religious nonprofit. “They have betrayed God and the Bible. They betrayed their faith, their constituents, the Constitution and their party.â€
From this Times-Union article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/defeat-human-rights-ordinance-solidifies-jacksonvilles-image-good-or-ill#ixzz23ltICoMR
Especially considering the Mayor's cowardice or worse on the issue, is it any wonder a lot of folks were reluctant to take a stand? These Republican council members had nothing to gain personally or politically from this besides doing the moral thing and making the smart decision for business in Jacksonville, yet they put themselves up to be targeted by the religious Pharisees and other malcontents in their party. In a poisonous environment where three Democrats - DEMOCRATS - voted against a gay rights bill, they still voted for it. They have my respect.
^ OMG We have to get these people out of our Council / Government. This is insane :(
I was in Oklahoma City recently, and I saw an article that aluded to the city passing an anti-discrimination clause for the GLBT community this year. I take it that OKC is the most moderate part of Oklahoma (a VERYconservative state), but that surprised me. I haven't researched the details, perhaps it was domestic partnership benefits for employees of the city and not discrimination in the private sector. Simms3 might can research since he knows where to look.
Even more surprising was that an openly gay man was elected to the state senate there, and a state House seat was sought by numerous candidates that seemed to either be gay or trying to out-gay rights each other.
This shouldn't be a suprise...our council is nade up of its people..this vote tells us that jacksonville is a biggoted religious group.
Our council would kill a baby at council if first baptist said jesus would likke that...this is rediculous but telling who my neighbors are...
http://www.hrc.org/resources/entry/maps-of-state-laws-policies
^^^Good resource for statewide laws. You can see that the same states offer the same protections for gays and transgender people and just about the entire south comes up blank every time, even with anti-bully legislation and hospital visitation.
If you're gay in the south, you have just a few options of true gay friendly areas with large communities and support networks and less discrimination: Atlanta, Miami, Miami Beach, Fort Lauderdale, New Orleans and Key West. Nashville's community seems to be growing, as well, and so is Charlotte's. Nearly 15% of the citizens of Atlanta actually identify themselves as gay on Census surveys and the actual percentage is likely higher. You can't have the shenanigans you have in Jacksonville with that large a percentage...you'll never be voted into office if you *don't* support the gays. We're talking city limits here with this small group of southern cities. It's also no wonder that these are places of big time commerce, are urbanizing really quickly, attracting the educated and seeing a lot of success where other cities in the south are not. Coincidence?
As long as Riverside is a tiny little island in a mostly Republican/suburban city with the same municipal boundaries, don't expect much change on any front. And it is shocking Lumb voted against his constituents.
Quote“We will make sure we expose the Republicans who were basically traitors,†said Raymond Johnson II, a political consultant and president of a conservative religious nonprofit. “They have betrayed God and the Bible. They betrayed their faith, their constituents, the Constitution and their party.â€
This guy sounds like a religious NUT! Yikes!
Simms - You talk about Atlanta as having taken the high ground. There was a time during the 80s, it was as conservative as Jacksonville is now, with Jax then being Homer Lindsay conservative. Atlanta had issues in midtown, the perception was that the LG community was spreading AIDS and the poverty in midtown was in direct proportion to the LG community, then came the growth of the 90s and as Midtown grew, so did the tolerance, and the Olympics helped as well. Now with a thriving LG community, Atlanta is no longer the pariah it once was in the Bible Belt. I was there to witness this first hand, and while the city still looks to recover from the Campbell/Arrington days, it still has far too many potholes and other issues within the inner city.
As I stated at the beginning, No on this does not mean the end, it is a beginning, to get on the record where people stand and work with them to change their mind and show them that support LGBT community is not harmful to them and in fact is the right thing to do to move the City of Jacksonville down the road. The day will come again and it will pass, but we cannot blame people for ignorance, we end up back at the same point with the same problem.
Quote“We will make sure we expose the Republicans who were basically traitors,†said Raymond Johnson II, a political consultant and president of a conservative religious nonprofit. “They have betrayed God and the Bible. They betrayed their faith, their constituents, the Constitution and their party.â€
That guy is something else. But he outta be careful. Language like he's using is an attempt at bribery according to one Councilman. Voters are apparently not allowed to publicly hold our leaders accountable or threaten to vote for or oppose their political ambitions based on their legislative records.
Jimmy, proud of you man, glad to see you take the high road. I have many LGBT friends, if I can help, just ask! It will happen, this will just take some time.
Thank you! We always knew this might take two or three swings at-bat before scoring a run. This issue is added to the mix of so many other things we need to work on. But I'm glad it's finally a topic of conversation.
QuoteThere was a time during the 80s, it (Atlanta) was as conservative as Jacksonville is now.
So Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right. Well, maybe 20-30 years behind Miami/Tampa/Orlando/insert city here.
Because Gaffney has admitted to being confused over what he was voting on, he CAN bring the bill back and vote for it. Let Gaffney know you want him to ask for a reconsideration of the vote. Gaffney@coj.net
"Matt Carlucci, a former council president who supported the bill, said if Gaffney was confused about what the council was voting on, he has the ability to bring it back for another vote."
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-supporters-human-rights-bill-press-councilman-reconsider#ixzz23oWJ4my5 (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-supporters-human-rights-bill-press-councilman-reconsider#ixzz23oWJ4my5)
QuoteSo Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right.
We quickly forget that Homer Lindsay was the most powerful man in Jacksonville, it takes some time to allow that luster to wear off. FBC is still powerful, just not the iron fist they used to rule with, and Jacksonville has grown because of it, but we are still a conservative town in most parts.
Quote from: avs on August 17, 2012, 10:38:18 AM
Because Gaffney has admitted to being confused over what he was voting on, he CAN bring the bill back and vote for it. Let Gaffney know you want him to ask for a reconsideration of the vote. Gaffney@coj.net
"Matt Carlucci, a former council president who supported the bill, said if Gaffney was confused about what the council was voting on, he has the ability to bring it back for another vote."
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-supporters-human-rights-bill-press-councilman-reconsider#ixzz23oWJ4my5 (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-16/story/jacksonville-supporters-human-rights-bill-press-councilman-reconsider#ixzz23oWJ4my5)
Here's something a friend of mine posted on facebook this morning:
Councilman Gaffney ran for re-election with the endorsement of the Equality Florida Action PAC, after he indicated his support for "policies banning discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity in housing, employment, public accommodations and other vital areas" in their questionnaire. He also indicated support for other areas of interest to the GLBT community in that questionnaire.
Bombard him with emails, reminding him of that endorsement and demand that he bring it back for reconsideration
Yep! This is the exact reason why I left Jacksonville. Nothing will ever change here.
Thanks for leaving instead of staying and trying to make things better!
QuoteNothing will ever change here.
First BLACK mayor ever in Jacksonville? Um, yeah, that was big!
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 18, 2012, 03:42:47 PM
Thanks for leaving instead of staying and trying to make things better!
So you're going to call me out now?
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 18, 2012, 05:27:59 PM
QuoteNothing will ever change here.
First BLACK mayor ever in Jacksonville? Um, yeah, that was big!
Congratulations to Alvin! I favored him over Hogan for many reasons. But how does everyone think he's doing? If we need to, we'll start another thread.
Stephen +100
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 17, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
QuoteSo Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right.
We quickly forget that Homer Lindsay was the most powerful man in Jacksonville, it takes some time to allow that luster to wear off. FBC is still powerful, just not the iron fist they used to rule with, and Jacksonville has grown because of it, but we are still a conservative town in most parts.
Well, Salt Lake City is a conservative city as well. Probably even more so than Jacksonville. Even during their early days, they created some very wonderful things.
I'm still not sure what Jacksonville is trying to do. I don't think it's conservatism itself that's causing this problem. There's something else going on here.
I'm placing my bet on something cultural that's causing this. That means there's something from the past is biting back hard and won't let go.
Quote from: stephendare on August 18, 2012, 09:34:39 PM
If anyone cares to imagine the nightmare scenario of a Tea Party Baptist Mayor with this Council, then Id like to hear it. I don't regret supporting Brown, because the alternative was so awful.
My candidate was Audrey, who is being urged as we speak to run again.
She is waiting to hear more affirmation before she decides, so if you are in her social circle, by all means tell her.
Every day that I wake up and Hogan isnt the Mayor working with this particular group of misfits, is a good day. In my opinion, Brown was elected to not be Hogan, and to this day he isn't.
You make a very important point
Brown fails to communicate with the people who voted for him. I know this is politics.
But I have to admit it would probably be a much worse scenario , the other way around.
I thought YOU were contemplating running for mayor? :)
Quote from: Timkin on August 18, 2012, 09:55:53 PM
Quote from: stephendare on August 18, 2012, 09:34:39 PM
If anyone cares to imagine the nightmare scenario of a Tea Party Baptist Mayor with this Council, then Id like to hear it. I don't regret supporting Brown, because the alternative was so awful.
My candidate was Audrey, who is being urged as we speak to run again.
She is waiting to hear more affirmation before she decides, so if you are in her social circle, by all means tell her.
Every day that I wake up and Hogan isnt the Mayor working with this particular group of misfits, is a good day. In my opinion, Brown was elected to not be Hogan, and to this day he isn't.
You make a very important point
Brown fails to communicate with the people who voted for him. I know this is politics.
But I have to admit it would probably be a much worse scenario , the other way around.
I thought YOU were contemplating running for mayor? :)
I think Brown tried his best to NOT communicate with the people that voted for him.
My guess is Brown is basing his support base more on what happened in the primaries more than the general election. He's probably having nightmares about what happened to the people who got clobbered in the primaries as well as their supporters.
Quote from: cityimrov on August 18, 2012, 09:52:40 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 17, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
QuoteSo Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right.
We quickly forget that Homer Lindsay was the most powerful man in Jacksonville, it takes some time to allow that luster to wear off. FBC is still powerful, just not the iron fist they used to rule with, and Jacksonville has grown because of it, but we are still a conservative town in most parts.
Well, Salt Lake City is a conservative city as well. Probably even more so than Jacksonville. Even during their early days, they created some very wonderful things.
I'm still not sure what Jacksonville is trying to do. I don't think it's conservatism itself that's causing this problem. There's something else going on here.
I'm placing my bet on something cultural that's causing this. That means there's something from the past is biting back hard and won't let go.
Cityimrov, What do you think the cultural or past issues might be that are impacting Jacksonville today?
QuoteI don't regret supporting Brown, because the alternative was so awful.
Stephen - Read today's paper and the discussion on the Pension costs, your buddy Lumb called the next year's budget a "Bloodbath", and what is Brown going to do about it? He is going to have a plan together BY the end of the year. Kicking the can down the road is what he does best. His administration asked the council to deny the Actuarial Study which would have brought Pensions to the front LAST YEAR, because it was their 1st year in the Mayors, office. Again, inexperience showing through.
At the very least, Hogan had experience in the City and some of the blunders we have seen, the lack of communication, I doubt Hogan would have had these issues.
We are here now, no use looking at the past. Pensions are now Brown's anchor and the citizens cannot afford to have him blunder here.
Meh...
He's been at it long enough that you can no longer call it inexperience. Now it's just laziness.
Quote from: cityimrov on August 18, 2012, 09:52:40 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 17, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
QuoteSo Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right.
We quickly forget that Homer Lindsay was the most powerful man in Jacksonville, it takes some time to allow that luster to wear off. FBC is still powerful, just not the iron fist they used to rule with, and Jacksonville has grown because of it, but we are still a conservative town in most parts.
Well, Salt Lake City is a conservative city as well. Probably even more so than Jacksonville. Even during their early days, they created some very wonderful things.
I'm still not sure what Jacksonville is trying to do. I don't think it's conservatism itself that's causing this problem. There's something else going on here.
I'm placing my bet on something cultural that's causing this. That means there's something from the past is biting back hard and won't let go.
I really think it's pure conservatism. Jacksonville never had a large gay community so there was never any real relationship (good or bad) between the city, its non-gay citizens and its gay community.
Also, Jacksonville as a rapidly growing sunbelt city has no connection to its cultural past. Too many people from elsewhere, cultural past too long ago for most people from Jacksonville who are alive today, etc. It's all about the types of people coming to Jacksonville who control its destiny and who gets voted into office.
The ultimate question is how does Lumb, representing Riverside, vote against the bill? Is Riverside not as gay as we all think? Is the most liberal area in town actually still more conservative than liberal? Here's from Lumb's COJ site.
QuoteIn 2004 he was elected to the Duval County Republican Executive Committee, the governing body of the local Republican Party, and was subsequently re-elected for a second four-year term in 2008. In 2010 he was elected to serve as Vice Chairman of the Republican Party of Duval County.
The problem with Jacksonville is you have a collection of more level headed but still center right folks (Boyer, Crescimbeni) mixed with FAR FAR FAR FAR right folks running the city, and there is basically nobody dead in the center or even left of center taking part in any decision making processes (well about 2-3 council members from the black community). Not to discount the African American community, it's going to take more liberal white people to turn the city around considering the city is much more white overall than black. Personally I judge a city's blueness by what percentage of white people are liberal because not to sound horrible it's almost a given the black community is blue, but in the south it means something when you have a large population of liberal white folk (again, Atlanta, Charlotte, Raleigh, Orlando, Miami/Miami Beach, Palm Beach come to mind).
Well at least we're not in Russia, where they are really homophobic, poor Madonna!
http://www.accessatlanta.com/atlanta-music/madonna-sued-in-russia-1502123.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm (http://www.accessatlanta.com/atlanta-music/madonna-sued-in-russia-1502123.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm)
Lumb is from At-Large 5, which really doesn't have that much of Riverside/Avondale. It includes Springfield, Downtown, and westside out to I-295.
Link to map: http://www.coj.net/city-council/council-district-maps.aspx (don't know how to embed the actual PDF map)
But everyone in the County can vote for him, the At-Large districts are just residence zones - created so they all didn't come from Ortega or Mandarin.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on August 18, 2012, 10:06:04 PM
Quote from: cityimrov on August 18, 2012, 09:52:40 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 17, 2012, 10:42:18 AM
QuoteSo Jacksonville is about 20-30 years behind Atlanta? Yeah, that's about right.
We quickly forget that Homer Lindsay was the most powerful man in Jacksonville, it takes some time to allow that luster to wear off. FBC is still powerful, just not the iron fist they used to rule with, and Jacksonville has grown because of it, but we are still a conservative town in most parts.
Well, Salt Lake City is a conservative city as well. Probably even more so than Jacksonville. Even during their early days, they created some very wonderful things.
I'm still not sure what Jacksonville is trying to do. I don't think it's conservatism itself that's causing this problem. There's something else going on here.
I'm placing my bet on something cultural that's causing this. That means there's something from the past is biting back hard and won't let go.
Cityimrov, What do you think the cultural or past issues might be that are impacting Jacksonville today?
It's just a hunch right now but I think it has something to do with Jacksonville being easy to live at.
Look at places like Salt Lake City. The foundation of Salt Lake City was not easy. They had to take any help they could otherwise they wouldn't survive. It's the same thing with other states where people had to start from nothing. It's Trust strangers or Die. If you didn't trust the new strange people around you, you couldn't survive.
Areas which seem to accept more diversity are areas which kept this survivalist instinct. It was trust or die. You had to trust more than your family or race or belief. You had to trust everyone around you to get you through this. Jacksonville is the opposite of this. You don't need to trust to survive. Your allowed to distrust others and still survive. It was also very easy to move to Jacksonville. You didn't have the hardship of the Oregon Trail.
City, You should really read some non-mormon, historic accounts of the founding of Salt Lake City. It wasn't a pretty picture of cooperation among diverse people and included some nasty incidents of killing passing travelers and native Americans.
What ever it is or is not, the fact remains , a few people control the masses and have the audacity to use their religious convictions to discriminate.
The irony is they do not live by that which they expect others to do. They are hypocrites in some level of power throwing their weight around.
I find some peace in knowing that eventually they will get whats coming to them. Karma tends to be a bitch.
The Op-Ed this morning in the paper was well done.
Quote from: Dog Walker on August 20, 2012, 07:37:41 AM
City, You should really read some non-mormon, historic accounts of the founding of Salt Lake City. It wasn't a pretty picture of cooperation among diverse people and included some nasty incidents of killing passing travelers and native Americans.
Wasn't it called The Wild West? I don't know about those accounts. Though there are very little "pretty picture of cooperation" in human history. Coexistence is difficult for some people to accept and will do so only if they have to.
I don't think I can call Salt Lake City a shining example of diversity but the fact is they did pass their own version of a human rights ordinance while Jacksonville didn't.
Wish a pastor would have given this speech. Watch the whole thing.
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A8JsRx2lois&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA8JsRx2lois%26feature%3Dyoutu.be (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=A8JsRx2lois&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DA8JsRx2lois%26feature%3Dyoutu.be)
Quote from: AshleyLauren on August 15, 2012, 06:14:35 PM
Original bill was put down 17 to 2.
Members of the opposing side leaped in a loud uproar and one member of the supporting side left screaming at the City Council members.
Most of the room is leaving now. The looks on the faces of the members of the LGBT community is saddening.
A year ago today. Still feels pretty raw.
Oy.
No words...
Yes people, the most important thing that the church needs to focus on is preventing gays from being equal citizens. Forget that we are one of the worst cities for lack of education, murder, and corruption. Lets all give our city council a standing ovation for voting against civil rights. Isn't Jacksonville better now?
I'm more amazed he got half of the council there.
Is it any wonder FBC gets so much criticism? They threw a big party for these backward thinking people. So it's hard not to give them, FBC, a hard time.