http://jacksonville.com/slideshows/slides-news/saying-goodbye-old-duval-county-courthouse#slide=8
Pretty cool and educational.
Very, very cool. A lot went on inside those walls.
QuoteA lot went on inside those walls.
Yep: A lot of folks - a few quite infamous - sentenced to death. Many marriages dissolved. A few marriages begun. At least one death - across a table from me during a court hearing. Any births? Justice done and justice denied. Lives unalterably changed.
It ended up a microcosm of Jacksonville's budget problems: A miserably maintained edifice, dirty, too crowded, parts of systems non-functional, etc.
I wonder who decided it was a good idea to provide parking by paving over the river. Even if the building remains, will the parking lot come down?
Quote from: WmNussbaum on May 30, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
QuoteA lot went on inside those walls.
At least one death - across a table from me during a court hearing.
Could you elaborate?
Back in my early days, I did some domestic relations law. In a final hearing in a pro bono case in which I represented the wife, her husband had - I guess it was - a heart attack in the judge's chambers, slid off of his chair and died. As his widow, my client did substantially better than she would have done had he lived a few more hours. Justice served.
I remember when the jail was where the Berkman is now. There was a walkover above Liberty St that connected the two buildings, I presume to walk prisoners back and forth.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on May 30, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
QuoteA lot went on inside those walls.
Yep: A lot of folks - a few quite infamous - sentenced to death. Many marriages dissolved. A few marriages begun. At least one death - across a table from me during a court hearing. Any births? Justice done and justice denied. Lives unalterably changed.
It ended up a microcosm of Jacksonville's budget problems: A miserably maintained edifice, dirty, too crowded, parts of systems non-functional, etc.
I wonder who decided it was a good idea to provide parking by paving over the river. Even if the building remains, will the parking lot come down?
yea I never knew river water was under that parking lot...if the water is even still there. I wonder if they filled it in before building the lot.
Yes, the jail was connected to the courthouse by an above-ground enclosed walkway - like Angela Corey wants now to connect her office to the new courthouse.
Yes, the water is still under the parking lot. From posts in MJ, I gather it's possible to kayak under it - too fracking spooky for me. In places you can see and hear the water between seams in the concrete. I wonder what would be the effect on the river if the parking lot was removed. I wonder if sooner or later the lot will require expensive repair/upgrades if allowed to remain and put to some weight-bearing use.
I wonder if a really grand riverfront park would make sense. With the exception of Berkman, the City owns everything from east of the Hyatt down to the [still known as] Shipyards land. If some decent amenities were put in and food services licenses doled out, the place could be a decent attraction.
$350 Million Dollar elephant! With the issue's regarding the fire system makes me wonder just what else is going to take place at some future date. Not happy about the wasted money or effort to this point. Don't even get me started regarding the ground access and mobility handicaps to foot traffic! Wonder why they just did not put a moat around it and be done with it! But thats just me.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on May 30, 2012, 08:27:02 PM
Back in my early days, I did some domestic relations law. In a final hearing in a pro bono case in which I represented the wife, her husband had - I guess it was - a heart attack in the judge's chambers, slid off of his chair and died. As his widow, my client did substantially better than she would have done had he lived a few more hours. Justice served.
A win's a win, right? No need to look at the box score. ;D
Quote from: CS Foltz on May 31, 2012, 09:21:09 AM
$350 Million Dollar elephant! With the issue's regarding the fire system makes me wonder just what else is going to take place at some future date. Not happy about the wasted money or effort to this point. Don't even get me started regarding the ground access and mobility handicaps to foot traffic! Wonder why they just did not put a moat around it and be done with it! But thats just me.
CS...is that really you...where have you been?
Liberty Street, between the Old Court House parking lot and the Berkman is closed. A few weeks ago, some equipment working on the Berkman garage broke through the pavement, exposing the river. The City isn't sure if they are going to fix it - don't know how extensive the problem is.
Quote from: CS Foltz on May 31, 2012, 09:21:09 AM
$350 Million Dollar elephant! With the issue's regarding the fire system makes me wonder just what else is going to take place at some future date. Not happy about the wasted money or effort to this point. Don't even get me started regarding the ground access and mobility handicaps to foot traffic! Wonder why they just did not put a moat around it and be done with it! But thats just me.
Don't give them any ideas .. Next thing you know there will be a 300 Million dollar moat around it, bringing the total cost to : RIDICULOUS !
Millions of dollars spent on a building that cannot be occupied...yet. The old building closed and abandoned. Amazing continuity and planning! Looks like we would have waited a few weeks to move out of the old to see if the new was actually READY to use but that would have been too difficult. So here we are....waiting.
I wonder what Ted Pappas envisions to replace the old courthouse?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/05/great-idea-for-the-riverfront-site-of.html
Gonna miss the old courthouse. Especially the snack bar that was at the east end of the building (by the Liberty Street entrance) An older blonde lady ran it back in the 80s. For a snack bar, the selection of items she had rivaled a 4 star restaurant. Sometimes Id stop there for a hot dog, chips & a drink - even if I had no business in the courthouse.
Thank you, blonde lady, wherever you are!
Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2012, 11:44:43 PM
I wonder what Ted Pappas envisions to replace the old courthouse?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/05/great-idea-for-the-riverfront-site-of.html
I'm sure it is pure genious.
Of course Mr. Burr wrote in his editorial last week this tidbit....
"Move the train station back to Prime Osborn, and relocate the Greyhound bus staion there, eliminating that Downtown eyesore. Build a convention center, if we must, at the beach, where most visitors would rather be anyway."
I sure am glad to know this is the guy in charge of what gets written in the Business Journal.
I agree with the train station move, but the CC to the Beach? really? just exactly where would we put it out there?
CC to the Beach is a moronic idea.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2012, 11:44:43 PM
I wonder what Ted Pappas envisions to replace the old courthouse?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/05/great-idea-for-the-riverfront-site-of.html
One can only hope it doesn't involve closing down Bay St for construction. and then 2 weeks before furniture is to be moved in, realize that the building's footprint is actually in the middle of Bay St. and that we'll need to have emergency meeting to determine whether or not to close Bay down permanently or to bend it around by Forsythe...
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
Quote from: justinthered on June 01, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
Dislike.
BTW, why didn't he use a more recent picture with Berkman II crumbling in the background?
Aren't they planning on putting the USS Adams over near the friendship fountain? Kinda would defeat the purpose of putting one over near this thing. I also think a really high quality aquarium would work near the river better than a lot of that stuff
Quote from: justinthered on June 01, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
Dear God, that's abominable.
Quote from: fieldafm on June 01, 2012, 11:28:37 AM
Quote from: justinthered on June 01, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
Dear God, that's abominable.
I do like this idea. The USS Adams would be a better fit there than the way out of the way location that's planed.
Quote from: cline on June 01, 2012, 10:31:27 AM
CC to the Beach is a moronic idea.
Wouldn't a convention center either exceed the 35' height limit or result in multiple city blocks being torn down at the beach?
As for the space needle and brutalist plaza rendering, aren't we about 50 years too late? Wait a minute...what the....is that an asphalt lot with planes parked on it behind the Hyatt?
Even though I'm a Miami Heat fan and no offense to the architect, this gif sums up what needs to immediately happen with the space needle idea:
(http://i304.photobucket.com/albums/nn200/nbacardDOTnet/zz%20NBA%20Photo%20Gallery/z%20Funny%20NBA%20Photos/Others%20Masterpiece/0%20queen%20lebron%20james/rondodestroylebronjames.gif)
Quote from: urbaknight on June 01, 2012, 12:09:52 PMI do like this idea. The USS Adams would be a better fit there than the way out of the way location that's planed.
One of the Shipyard piers would be better than both the Southbank and the courthouse site, imo.
Quote from: thelakelander on June 01, 2012, 12:17:41 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on June 01, 2012, 12:09:52 PMI do like this idea. The USS Adams would be a better fit there than the way out of the way location that's planed.
One of the Shipyard piers would be better than both the Southbank and the courthouse site, imo.
I agree, that would be better, plus we wouldn't have to spend 5 mil on building a new pier.
Why so much? I think the city needs to get another estimate. But you know how the city rolls, get as little bang for the buck with the highest expense possible.
I really believe the old Shipyards site is where the USS Adams should go, turn that space into a military, maritime museum space anchored by the Adams. No highrise condos needed to activate the space. Just think how cool it would look driving over the Hart Bridge and looking over at that area if the Adams were there. I think the space near the Acosta Bridge is too small with not much room for expansion and the ship will be hidden.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 31, 2012, 11:44:43 PM
I wonder what Ted Pappas envisions to replace the old courthouse?
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/05/great-idea-for-the-riverfront-site-of.html
This?
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/06/01/viewpoint-celebrate-downtowns.html
Quote from: justinthered on June 01, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
this was the idea shown in Arbus 4 years ago
Here is a cool idea: ::) Since Seattle and the west coast have the Space Needle, maybe Jacksonville could be the east coast counterpart with [drum roll] The Space Thimble. We could fill it with The Sewing Hall of Fame and International Thread Museum. I'll bet it would attract seamstresses (maybe even a seamster or two) from all over. Annually, we could sponsor a sew-off - it certainly would rival the Mount Horeb annual Mustard Festival (which is a real event, believe it or not).
Just read Pappas' Viewpoint in the Business Journal. Not too impressed. Move this thing to Shipyards and I am ok with it. It should not be at this site.
Quote from: justinthered on June 01, 2012, 10:43:17 AM
(http://assets.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/DOWNTOWN%20VISION_03-17-2008.jpg?v=1)
Looks like hes taking the rotating restaurant off of the current JEA Building and trying to mock a Seattle landmark. :o
somebody must have loved this show...
(http://www.csmonitor.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media/images/04-21-jetsons/7768354-1-eng-US/04-21-jetsons_full_600.jpg)
Seriously though, the dream mentioned in the article isn't a bad one. However, what's shown in that rendering needs to be taken out back and put to sleep.
Great pics, articles...anyone knows what they will do with the old courthouse, city hall, and all of that property?
Quote from: heights unknown on June 04, 2012, 08:13:03 AM
Great pics, articles...anyone knows what they will do with the old courthouse, city hall, and all of that property?
Based on repeated failures to successfully test the sprinkler system at the new courthouse, plans are to keep the old building open indefinitely, and to drill holes in the roof, drag a really long hose up there, and have a guy hold it "just in case."
Forward to the past!
If anyone sees an RFP for rat traps, please let me know. I have a friend in the business who would like a shot at supplying them. Eradication sure as hell should not be allowed on a "no-bid" basis. If they do that, I'll sue - IF, that is, I can find out where to file papers.
That thing looks too much like the needles in Seattle and Toronto. I guess we can be copy cats. We can't come up with an original idea, so we'll just copy other's. That's our MO, isn't it? Go visit a bunch of other cities, put all their ideas in a hat, stir it up, and draw a few out. Come up with an awful mix that doesn't work for anyone.
Oh, and hellooooo Old Courthouse. Our $350 million boondoggle is uninhabitable with no ETR on the fire safety system. Whose idea was it to move from the old Courthouse before the new one had a CO?
So Comrade, when do we build Jaxinanmen Square? I get you good deal on big red brick and primo Cuban cigar!
Really, when I saw this my reaction was mixed, I also think we need to grab that waterfront by the gizmo and make it into a national treasure. Watch for some idea's along this line in a future article.
We do have one nice focal point downtown, if they ever get Friendship Fountain fixed. Of course, that park was much nicer, more resident friendly, and more visible before they let them build that huge restaurant on it years ago. Nevertheless, it is a nice focal point.
Meanwhile, here's a link to some interesting public art to enjoy. Would be nice to have something really original and striking in Jacksonville. Something people talk about. http://www.slideshare.net/Slyoldawg/interesting-public-places Minneapolis has so much public art, they published a map to it, by area in the city. And they have a sculpture garden. http://www.minneapolismn.gov/dca/map/index.htm
Whatever ends up on the waterfront, please don't put some rink-dink naval ship there. Nothing against destroyers, mind you, but they aren't exactly the awesome attraction a carrier or battleship might be.
Quote from: WmNussbaum on June 11, 2012, 08:01:06 PM
Whatever ends up on the waterfront, please don't put some rink-dink naval ship there. Nothing against destroyers, mind you, but they aren't exactly the awesome attraction a carrier or battleship might be.
Carriers aren't much of an attraction, either, besides being too big. I seem to remember about 20 years ago when the U.S.S. Saratoga was being decommissioned, a group of do-gooders wanted to buy it and dock it somewhere on the Southbank.
No disrespect to the United States Navy, or anyone whomever served aboard the Super Sara, but thank GOD that idea failed.
Could a carrier be brought to downtown? I mean would it clear the Dames Point and the Matthews Bridge to get in there? I wouldn't think so
Quote from: WmNussbaum on June 11, 2012, 08:01:06 PM
Whatever ends up on the waterfront, please don't put some rink-dink naval ship there. Nothing against destroyers, mind you, but they aren't exactly the awesome attraction a carrier or battleship might be.
Amen. Had to look at the USS Yorktown in Charleston for god knows how long. Biggest waste of space I've ever seen.
Quote from: Timkin on June 12, 2012, 12:01:37 AM
Could a carrier be brought to downtown? I mean would it clear the Dames Point and the Matthews Bridge to get in there? I wouldn't think so
I don't think so either.
Quote from: ben says on June 12, 2012, 08:06:41 AM
Quote from: WmNussbaum on June 11, 2012, 08:01:06 PM
Whatever ends up on the waterfront, please don't put some rink-dink naval ship there. Nothing against destroyers, mind you, but they aren't exactly the awesome attraction a carrier or battleship might be.
Amen. Had to look at the USS Yorktown in Charleston for god knows how long. Biggest waste of space I've ever seen.
You didn't look at it very well, Ben. :o
(http://www.patriotspoint.org/images/gallery/yorktown/3.jpg)
I think something in line with Pointe Orlando would work well in that space. Nice restaurants and a parking garage with retail would work well and give us something to do downtown.
http://www.pointeorlando.com/
Quote from: tlemans on June 12, 2012, 04:43:32 PM
I think something in line with Pointe Orlando would work well in that space. Nice restaurants and a parking garage with retail would work well and give us something to do downtown.
I have not seen Pointe Orlando. Is this a sort of "Mini Town Center" type development? That might be interesting . A convention center on the site might be okay if it would in fact pay for itself once it is in place.
Quote from: tlemans on June 12, 2012, 04:43:32 PM
I think something in line with Pointe Orlando would work well in that space. Nice restaurants and a parking garage with retail would work well and give us something to do downtown.
and guess why Pointe Orlando works? Lots of nearby hotels and a convention center
Yes Pointe Orlando is like a mini St John's Town Center except is has a movie theater and is two stories. You are correct is does work because it has hotels and convention center nearby. I really believe it would work well in downtown Jacksonville. How can we go about suggesting this to the city planners?
Quote from: tufsu1 on June 12, 2012, 08:39:22 PM
Quote from: tlemans on June 12, 2012, 04:43:32 PM
I think something in line with Pointe Orlando would work well in that space. Nice restaurants and a parking garage with retail would work well and give us something to do downtown.
and guess why Pointe Orlando works? Lots of nearby hotels and a convention center
Not to mention nearby Mickey Mouse
Just wondering if anyone has heard anything with regard to the future plans for the old Courthouse? As a Churchwell Lofts resident, I'm keenly interested in the building(s) not being allowed to simply fall into further disrepair. Has our Stealth Mayor Alvin Brown and/or his merry band of Largely Unseen Administration Peoples actually done anything to plan for this amazing property's future? While I know that demolition is sort of an unpopular term here on MetroJax, I really think that it would be difficult if not impossible to repurpose these buildings into anything else, and to leave more "dead" buildings in the heart of Jax isn't really any sort of real solution.
Given the proximity to the river and RiverWalk, the Landing and Shipyards, my personal belief is that the old Courthouse and Annex should be salvaged for their more valuable materials (there's a ton of marble and granite, and loads of recyclable brick) to help offset their demolition costs, and the area turned into the centerpiece of a riverfront park which would include the shipyards, the river walk, Metropolitan Park and the Stadium district. The costs of doing so are minimal as compared to building a Convention Center that would then be handed over to a private company to be operated. (The current operators of the Hyatt are definitely not the folks to run such an operation anyway; just take a good look at what they've done to the Hyatt..) Building a recreational destination like a park, on the other hand, provides a reason for folks in the suburbs to come downtown. Hell, maybe even throw in a dedicated Food Truck "Food Court" too! I know that doing so would definitely help to revitalize the now struggling East Bay Entertainment District.
Jacksonville definitely would benefit from having a larger, more "attractive" Convention Center, but I believe that expanding and enhancing the existing Prime Osbourne is the way to go. It's much more accessible and visible from the interstate and it's already surrounded by tons of empty land. Expanding at that site wouldn't rob the citizens of the use of a beautiful piece of riverfront property nor make the Prime Osbourne obsolete and derelict, as would be the case if a CC was built at the old Courthouse. The Prime Osbourne is already served by the Skyway, which is an underutilized asset which is screaming for a "purpose", and which already runs to existing hotels on both the North and South Banks.
Thoughts?
Pinky out.
QuoteHas our Stealth Mayor Alvin Brown and/or his merry band of Largely Unseen Administration Peoples actually done anything to plan for this amazing property's future?
Considering how the Mayor cannot add or CFO Belton for that matter, I'd say this is really not at the top of the pecking order for the 2012-2013 budget year. The Mayor and Belton have to find a way to locate the 7.2 million they left out of the budget for next year. But he did not raise taxes either! Woop Woop!
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-09/story/jacksonville-mayors-proposed-budget-contains-5-million-math-error (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2012-08-09/story/jacksonville-mayors-proposed-budget-contains-5-million-math-error)
Quote“It isn’t any prettier than it looked coming in,†said Finance Committee Chairman John Crescimbeni. “It’s going to get more ugly.â€
Crescimbeni said the Finance Committee needs to know by next week how the administration proposes to offset the $7.2 million gap.
Pinky, I think an empty building is better than another empty lot. And do we really need more empty space along the river? We have plenty at the shipyards site and Metro Park, also not used to full potential.
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Seconded for an actual waterfront, urban park.
Isn't that what Metro Park, Friendship Fountain and the river walks are? Let's maximize their potential before we create more vacant land.
The City needs to share their vision of what East Bay will be over the next 10 years. My bet is no one down there has a clue.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 11, 2012, 07:20:47 AM
Isn't that what Metro Park, Friendship Fountain and the river walks are? Let's maximize their potential before we create more vacant land.
+100
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on August 11, 2012, 07:20:47 AM
Isn't that what Metro Park, Friendship Fountain and the river walks are? Let's maximize their potential before we create more vacant land.
I tried to find pictures of Metro Park, but only found aerial shots and pictures from concerts. Here's what actual urban parks near waterfronts look like:
(http://blog.rivernorthpark.com/files/2011/06/Chicago-beach.jpg)
(http://annscherbert.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/san-franciscos-family-fun-kite-festival.jpg?w=544)
(http://img4-3.sunset.timeinc.net/i/2006/04/crissy-field-m.jpg?300:300)
Guess what those San Fransisco parks are? Vacant land.
Buckingham Fountain in Chicago is but one part of the 319 acre Grant Park. Friendship Fountain *is* essentially the 11 acre park.
Both those parks are indistinguishable suburban parks. One way to get in, parking lot bigger than the park, pedestrian hostile (1.4 mile walk along empty private lots, parking lots and along an elevated expressway from the Landing to Metro Park).
Guess what city doesn't make this list: America's Coolest River Walks (http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/americas-coolest-river-walks)?
It should be shameful that the nicest park on the water Jacksonville has is the pathetically small Memorial Park.
EDIT: Looking at it more, unless something magnificent happens with the Shipyards site, it's probably too late for Jacksonville to have any sort of meaningful open public space on the water (one actually integrated into the urban fabric). I apologize for the unreasonably high expectations.
Who the hell is going to swim in THAT river?
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Me thinkith that you have tipped your hand.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 11, 2012, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Me thinkith that you have tipped your hand.
They're obsolete. That's why we spent 150 bazillion dollars building new ones. And as far as waiting for someone to come in and throw away huge sums of money to try to re-purpose them, it just isn't happening. 1/3 of the annex has NO WINDOWS. Do you want to live there? The courthouse doesn't even function as a courthouse, much less anything else. Both buildings are literally falling apart.
But I'm glad you've brought this up, so that I may rant for a few minutes.. There is a real tendancy among a number of posters here to ignore simple economic reality, and propose "solutions" that simply do not fly in the real world. Say we had a herd of swine nobody wanted. Economic reality says they're bacon. But without a doubt, *some* folks here would go on endlessly that all "someone" needed to do is retrofit them with wings and they'd make for an excellent package delivery service. There would be endless pontificating about how clever and trainable pigs are, how their crap falling from the sky would be excellent fertilizer, and undoubtedly, some chucklehead would point out that if that became a problem, we could just build a trolley/streetcar/light rail that the pigs could ride instead. Newsflash kids- Daddy Warbucks ain't coming to build SwinEx any sooner than "somebody" is gonna re-use the old courthouse. (Nor, sadly, The Bostwick, or any of the other hundreds of crumbling buildings that litter our downtown. It just doesn't make economic sense to do so.
You're right, let's tear down all the old buildings downtown that will never be adapted, like, I don't know, 11E, the St. James Building, the former Klutho library, the Carling, and Old St. Andrew's Church.
We will not do anything until there is a plan in place, again, city hurting for money, why not sell the land to developers, who can create a better use for the space? City has a hole in their budgets, called PENSIONS, and the last buildings the city has been in charge of, Courthouse, did not turn out so well.....
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 10:42:40 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 11, 2012, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Me thinkith that you have tipped your hand.
They're obsolete. That's why we spent 150 bazillion dollars building new ones. And as far as waiting for someone to come in and throw away huge sums of money to try to re-purpose them, it just isn't happening. 1/3 of the annex has NO WINDOWS. Do you want to live there? The courthouse doesn't even function as a courthouse, much less anything else. Both buildings are literally falling apart.
But I'm glad you've brought this up, so that I may rant for a few minutes.. There is a real tendancy among a number of posters here to ignore simple economic reality, and propose "solutions" that simply do not fly in the real world. Say we had a herd of swine nobody wanted. Economic reality says they're bacon. But without a doubt, *some* folks here would go on endlessly that all "someone" needed to do is retrofit them with wings and they'd make for an excellent package delivery service. There would be endless pontificating about how clever and trainable pigs are, how their crap falling from the sky would be excellent fertilizer, and undoubtedly, some chucklehead would point out that if that became a problem, we could just build a trolley/streetcar/light rail that the pigs could ride instead. Newsflash kids- Daddy Warbucks ain't coming to build SwinEx any sooner than "somebody" is gonna re-use the old courthouse. (Nor, sadly, The Bostwick, or any of the other hundreds of crumbling buildings that litter our downtown. It just doesn't make economic sense to do so.
LoL agreed. The courthouse is
a) not historic or even remotely attractive
b) not adaptible
c) situated poorly on the site
d) in a prime location for a much higher and better use
e) in a city with no developers (private money) and no city money
f) probably has massive carrying costs
Blow that sucker down and clear the land...this is one smart instance of clearing land as opposed to a historic building that actually can be repurposed.
I remember liking Steve Lovett's plan for the site.
Stephen- Surely you have more to contribute to this topic than rhetorical questions, no? And if you sincerely don't grasp the notion of "simple economic reality", I suggest you look it up; the decline of Downtown will make a whole lot more sense to you afterwards.
Furthermore, are you suggesting that 80,000 people have fled downtown because of a *shortage* of empty, derelict eyesore buildings?? You've got the cart in front of your horse here Amigo; Simple Economic Reality says that there are no shortage of empty derelict buildings (which subsequently fall into disrepair become blighted and eventually torn down) BECAUSE 80,000 PEOPLE HAVE FLED DOWNTOWN. Capisce?
What Downtown needs are some compelling reasons for people to return. Do you sincerely believe that a beautiful riverfront park in the middle of downtown wouldn't be more effective at attaining that goal than having more empty derelict buildings? Really??
Quote from: Tacachale on August 11, 2012, 10:51:20 AM
You're right, let's tear down all the old buildings downtown that will never be adapted, like, I don't know, 11E, the St. James Building, the former Klutho library, the Carling, and Old St. Andrew's Church.
I live in the Churchwell lofts, and like it so much that I've bought several units in the building. I don't dispute that there are exceptions to the rule, and that's why I haven't suggested that every single empty but still viable building in town be razed. What I *have* suggested here is that Jacksonville has no shortage of buildings that because of their configuration, architectural significance, location and individual circumstance are much more appropriate candidates for re-use, and that given that reality and the need to do SOMETHING to attract people back to Downtown, that these two buildings could and should be removed to make way for a park.
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 11, 2012, 10:58:41 AM
We will not do anything until there is a plan in place, again, city hurting for money, why not sell the land to developers, who can create a better use for the space? City has a hole in their budgets, called PENSIONS, and the last buildings the city has been in charge of, Courthouse, did not turn out so well.....
We found $25,000,000 to build an Equestrian Center a few years ago, to attract the .001% of Jacksonville residents who are Horse Owners to visit a remote corner of the Westside. Is it so unreasonable to suggest that our esteemed mayor find 1/10th of that to provide a huge boost to downtown? Maybe we could use some of the money we'd surely have to hand over to private developers to get them develop the site?
I hope if these buildings ARE in fact taken out that instead of them ending up in a landfill , in their entirety that the marble and usable parts of them are utilized elsewhere.
Landfills can only hold so many buildings.
Pinky.. just curious for clarification.. Are you saying that every derelict / empty building should go? or mainly , are you speaking of the Courthouse / Annex?
Quote from: Timkin on August 11, 2012, 03:53:05 PM
I hope if these buildings ARE in fact taken out that instead of them ending up in a landfill , in their entirety that the marble and usable parts of them are utilized elsewhere.
Landfills can only hold so many buildings.
Pinky.. just curious for clarification.. Are you saying that every derelict / empty building should go? or mainly , are you speaking of the Courthouse / Annex?
I am speaking only and specifically of the old Courthouse and Annex. As I stated above, there are plenty of buildings which lend themselves to creative re-use, I LIVE IN ONE OF THEM, but the Courthouse and Annex would be better off becoming a park in hope of attracting people to the downtown area and thereby helping to create the economic climate which might support the aforementioned re-use of other structures.
Oh, and yes Timken, I totally agree with you regarding salvaging as much of the valuable materials out of the buildings, and suggested doing so as a way to mitigate the cost of tearing them down in my first post in this thread.
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 04:48:41 PM
Oh, and yes Timken, I totally agree with you regarding salvaging as much of the valuable materials out of the buildings, and suggested doing so as a way to mitigate the cost of tearing them down in my first post in this thread.
I some how missed that in reading the thread the first time. My apologies. :)
Contract provisions are all negotiable, but a typical contract with a demolition company give the company the right to keep anything in the building being razed.
Use the site for a park? First, the city can't keep the ones it has in anything better than deplorable condition, so what would be different about the courthouse/annex site? And keep in mind that the parking lot is built on pilings and the river runs under it. Second, what would attract folks to this park? Unless there is something there that people would want to spend money on to see/do/consume, it wouldn't be much of a magnet.
What ideas do we have for something in the way of see/do/consume? Like food trucks in the parking lot on weekends and the former courthouse converted into the city's biggest flea market - parking in a defined segment of the lot. Move RAM there and operate it 12 months a year,rain or shine. And here's my favorite: Entice a Dekalb County Market type of operation to come. (Google it and see if that wouldn't be a see/do/consume place all in one.)
I like the park idea, but think Mr. Nussbaum may raise a valid point in the City's ability to maintain it. If it was more than just a park.. maybe not an amusement park but something along those lines with vendors and entertainment...possibly.
I have to disagree with Pinky about the Prime Osbourne. I think it needs to be returned to being a train terminal. NOW
If we need a convention center, perhaps elsewhere in the City. Possibly on the riverfront but that wouldn't be my first choice for that location.
I will have to agree that while I like older buildings, Im afraid it would be hard to put this one to another adaptive use ,than office space... and don't think the demand for that warrants the building staying.
at 50 years old , some may not deem it historic. I think it is and certainly more appealing on the outside than the new Glass palace , but hey, everyone is different :)
We do an adequate job of keeping Metropolitan Park mowed, and the same goes for Memorial Park in Riverside. Upkeep would likely cost less then the carrying costs of the empty buildings, if nothing else.
As far as the See/Do/Consume ideas, the parking pier could be used as a "Multi-purpose space, a few, in no particular order, and all specifically oriented towards the parking pier:
- A Full Time Food Truck "Pod", a'la Portland Oregon: http://www.portlandmercury.com/portland/one-nation-under-pod/Content?oid=4163268
- Flea & Farmers Markets (Ever see the crowds at Ramona?)
- Skate events - (Did you see the portable ramps AND CROWDS at Hemming Plaza Skate Night??
- Carnivals
- Art Walk adjunct space
- SCCA Autocross - (Currently held out at Whitehouse Field, occasionally at the stadium parking lot- This could be done on weekend nights and targeted at the illegal Street Race crowd to get those idiots off the street and into a lower-speed/higher challenge racing outlet
I'm headed out to the Jim Gaffigan show, I'll brainstorm more.. I'll bet Tony Allegretti could come up with a few cool ideas too- I'll reach out to him, he's a buddy.
Oh, and Timkin, you're wrong about the Prime Osbourne. Convention Center. Nobody rides trains. ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Timkin on August 11, 2012, 06:19:49 PM
If we need a convention center, perhaps elsewhere in the City. Possibly on the riverfront but that wouldn't be my first choice for that location.
at first glance, I didn't like the riverfront location either....but given that the location of the Hyatt and the growing entertainment district, it just makes sense.
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 06:42:23 PM
Oh, and Timkin, you're wrong about the Prime Osbourne. Convention Center. Nobody rides trains. ;D ;D ;D
I readily admit that I am sometimes wrong and have no problem with being corrected, but on the point of the current Convention Center, I just cannot agree that the site should not be restored to it's original purpose. Bulldoze the Amshack.
Nobody rides trains? I really hope you do not seriously believe that to be true :P .
WHERES OCK ???
Ock help me out here, lol!! . ;) ( Ock is the MJ train guru as you probably know)
DO like some of the suggestions you outlined in the instance of the site becoming a park. :)
And concur the site would be less costly to maintain (mow) than to maintain the empty, unused buildings, assuming that it does not follow suit of most other demolitions that have occurred in the downtown area, and become a vacant grass/weed/ trash-infested lot. I think the downtown area has an adequate supply of them already, but hey, that is just an opinion. We all have one :)
Personally I would like to see the old courthouse annex (old city hall) recycled somehow. It could be easily converted to offices or even better, condos or apartments. Thats what they did with 11 E. Forsyth Street: it used to be the American Heritage Life building.
For a "modern" building, it has imagination & character. The relief map on the front facade, the thousands of tiny blue & green tiles, and its red brick construction immediately come to mind. It also has a parking garage, and if I recall, even a special elevator for cars. The 4 elevators in the lobby once had lighted signs above them. When an elevator would arrive the sign would light: THIS CAR UP
Back in the 80s I did an internship under the Hazouri administration. Call it crazy, but I developed a sentimental attachment to the building that still exists today.
SAVE THE COURTHOUSE ANNEX/OLD CITY HALL. As for the old courthouse, I dont know.
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 06:42:23 PM
Oh, and Timkin, you're wrong about the Prime Osbourne. Convention Center. Nobody rides trains. ;D ;D ;D
I ride trains! :D
And its OSBORN, not Osbourne. ;)
Looks like someone's been listening to too much Ozzy :)
(I'd go off the rails on the Crazy Train before I'd
ever fly high again) ;D ;D
Quote from: BackinJax05 on August 11, 2012, 10:46:24 PM
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 06:42:23 PM
Oh, and Timkin, you're wrong about the Prime Osbourne. Convention Center. Nobody rides trains. ;D ;D ;D
I ride trains! :D
And its OSBORN, not Osbourne. ;)
Looks like someone's been listening to too much Ozzy :)
(I'd go off the rails on the Crazy Train before I'd ever fly high again) ;D ;D
I spelled it wrong, as well, 05. I stand corrected.
And would rather take the train than fly. Sometimes, for speed of travel, flying cannot be beat. (unless of course, high-speed rail becomes reality)
Back to the topic. If either could be utilized in some practical way, for now at least, Id think that would be favorable to vacant , demolished, blighted lot .
QuoteBulldoze the Amshack.
Bulldoze something Timken??? Say it ain't so! Why not donate the shack to a charity and allow them to use the space, since the feds went out of their way to modernize the building, let's keep it for generations to come, if we can find a worth charity...
The old Courthouse/City Hall Annex is best suited to be connected to the Hyatt and used as a convention center. We have the great river, we should sell it more to people who come to town and what better way than to have the events down on the river. Home Patio show (twice a year), Presidential visits/campaign stops, Prayer breakfasts, JaxBiz events, if these were all downtown, the vendors DOWNTOWN all benefit with more people here and the Landing would thrive, Sleiman would get his damn parking garage, and we would grow from the river northward.
If we "need" another park so badly, use the JEA Southside Generating Station land for the park, its green, waiting and a softball/baseball/running course would look great on the southbank, perhaps with a pedestrian bridge to link it to the northbank, as Brad Thoburn suggested when he was Planning Director.
I hate to see another demolition, because virtually nothing that gets demolished downtown ever gets rebuilt. Infighting and NIMBYism takes over, and then our excuses for power players take it over as a way to snipe one another, they'd rather scrap the whole thing than see their rival make a dime, doesn't matter what's being proposed. We all know how Jacksonville works, 20 years later we'll still be staring at the same vacant lot.
But with that said, and even though I've got some sentimental attachment to the building, I really don't know what you'd do with it. It's a courthouse, it just is what it is. You'd have to gut the interior, and even then the building was structurally designed around large rooms on the first two levels, I mean I guess it could be done, but it's not useable as anything else in its current configuration and the cost of the changes needed to make it useable as something else would probably be uneconomic.
Maybe I'm missing something? I just don't know what you'd do with it?
QuoteMaybe I'm missing something? I just don't know what you'd do with it?
Well, we sure as hell don't want to create another school board building on the river, do we? After all, let's use our most expensive real estate for buildings that do not pay into the general tax funds! Makes sense to this taxpayer (again, sarcasm).
The courthouse and the annex need to be evaluated separately....there may not be value in the one, but the other could be converted into office, hotel, or housing....with retail on the ground floor
Quote from: mtraininjax on August 12, 2012, 10:11:22 AM
QuoteBulldoze the Amshack.
Bulldoze something Timken??? Say it ain't so! Why not donate the shack to a charity and allow them to use the space, since the feds went out of their way to modernize the building, let's keep it for generations to come, if we can find a worth charity...
The old Courthouse/City Hall Annex is best suited to be connected to the Hyatt and used as a convention center. We have the great river, we should sell it more to people who come to town and what better way than to have the events down on the river. Home Patio show (twice a year), Presidential visits/campaign stops, Prayer breakfasts, JaxBiz events, if these were all downtown, the vendors DOWNTOWN all benefit with more people here and the Landing would thrive, Sleiman would get his damn parking garage, and we would grow from the river northward.
If we "need" another park so badly, use the JEA Southside Generating Station land for the park, its green, waiting and a softball/baseball/running course would look great on the southbank, perhaps with a pedestrian bridge to link it to the northbank, as Brad Thoburn suggested when he was Planning Director.
M-- Would you agree then , that current Prime Osborn should be returned to a train terminal?
you made me laugh with the "say it isn't so" ..conversely I laughed as well at your suggestion to save the Amshack. ( I presume you were serious?)
Honestly I don't have an emotional attachment to the Courthouse or Annex. As Chris pointed out and he is on the mark , seldom , does anything getting demolished these days, get replaced. Park, Convention Center, whatever.. I just don't want to see more blight on the riverfront. So Id rather the buildings stay than an empty lot to replace them.. that said, obviously I think we all want to see something meaningful become of the site, and preferably something that would attract the masses.
Quote from: Timkin on August 11, 2012, 10:11:57 PM
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 06:42:23 PM
Oh, and Timkin, you're wrong about the Prime Osbourne. Convention Center. Nobody rides trains. ;D ;D ;D
I readily admit that I am sometimes wrong and have no problem with being corrected, but on the point of the current Convention Center, I just cannot agree that the site should not be restored to it's original purpose. Bulldoze the Amshack.
Nobody rides trains? I really hope you do not seriously believe that to be true :P .
WHERES OCK ???
Ock help me out here, lol!! . ;) ( Ock is the MJ train guru as you probably know)
(http://www.ttmg.org/photos/tlogan/LaCubana_MCI_924.jpg)
(http://inlinethumb47.webshots.com/49070/2918600810104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
(http://inlinethumb61.webshots.com/48572/2188395490104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
I'm your huckleberry! Well lets see, just here in the good old USA, some 1,050,000 pass through the two train stations in New York City every day. Of those something like 500,000 are actual intercity, regional or commuter train passengers. That's about 383,250,000 a year. That's more then all of the passengers that pass through the following airports:
Last update: August 1 2011
Rank City (Airport) Total
Passengers % Change
1 ATLANTA GA, US(ATL) 89 331 622 1.5
2 BEIJING, CN(PEK) 73 948 113 13.1
3 CHICAGO IL, US(ORD) 66 774 738 4.1
4 LONDON, GB(LHR) 65 884 143
5 TOKYO, JP(HND) 64 211 074 3.7
ALL AIRPORTS TOTAL - 354,119,690
Now we could toss in train stations like Los Angeles at 1,606,121 annual passengers, or 3.4 million at Chicago Union Station.
Yes, I know that many of these passengers rode commuter or regional trains, and your point is? This is exactly what Florida is moving toward with the new SunRail, TriRail, FECI, Amtrak Expansion as well as 'plans' in both Tampa and Jacksonville. The point is when people are given the choice of fighting choking traffic on the super slab to Miami, or the astronomical cost of the flight to Tampa, they will choose the train.
Current plans (with or without a Republican president) will see Jacksonville served by:
Southeast High Speed Rail, already under construction with trains up and running Charlotte.
Florida East Coast Industries private passenger services
Amtrak, on current and possible routes to Miami via the Florida East Coast route, Tampa via Ocala-Amtrak on CSX, New Orleans via Tallahassee-Amtrak on CSX, Atlanta (maybe Chicago) via Amtrak on CSX/NS
JTA commuter rail
FDOT regional rail
COJ streetcar or light-rail
JTA bus
MAX
Skyway
local cab companies
Greyhound (INTERCITY BUS)
*La Cubana (INTERCITY BUS)
*Megabus (INTERCITY BUS)
*Red Coach (INTERCITY BUS)
*Auto-Bus (INTERCITY BUS)
* These carriers already either serve the city or pass through with no place to stop. LaCubana uses a truck stop on SR210.
No matter how you cut it, the old station would be a buzz of activity. Granted it would fall short of the original crowds, but it can easily handle anything we're likely to throw at it now or in the near future. Consider this as Jacksonville's last great trump card to become the master of surface transportation in the Southeast once again. To refuse a conversion of the PO back to it's original purposes (forget the other 3 stations and office building JTA wants) is to slam the door on another Disney, Busch, OIA, etc...
...But of course darling, 'nobody rides trains!'
Amtrak's website says 74000 people used the Jacksonville terminal last year. That's 200 a day. Get real.
^ ah but here's the catch pinky...Ock is counting the additional folks that just pass through the stations....meaning they are on trains from say Miami to DC and pass through JAX....the problem is they rarely, if ever, get off the train
airports count passengers enplaning and deplaning...so even if you're just going through say Atlanta, you get counted...and I think you even get counted if you remain on the same plane and never get off
Also that number would be increased if the Sunset Limited were restored and the Palmetto extended to Jacksonville.
^^ Yes. If only ...
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 13, 2012, 11:11:11 AM
^ ah but here's the catch pinky...Ock is counting the additional folks that just pass through the stations....meaning they are on trains from say Miami to DC and pass through JAX....the problem is they rarely, if ever, get off the train
airports count passengers enplaning and deplaning...so even if you're just going through say Atlanta, you get counted...and I think you even get counted if you remain on the same plane and never get off
Im glad you pointed that out; it really provides a neat contrast to the 8 million folks a year that fly in and out of JIA, the vast percentage of whom are not connecting to other flights. (Since JIA isn't a hub.).
So... 8,000,000 vs 74,000. Again, nobody rides trains.
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 10:42:40 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 11, 2012, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Me thinkith that you have tipped your hand.
They're obsolete. That's why we spent 150 bazillion dollars building new ones. And as far as waiting for someone to come in and throw away huge sums of money to try to re-purpose them, it just isn't happening. 1/3 of the annex has NO WINDOWS. Do you want to live there? The courthouse doesn't even function as a courthouse, much less anything else. Both buildings are literally falling apart.
But I'm glad you've brought this up, so that I may rant for a few minutes.. There is a real tendancy among a number of posters here to ignore simple economic reality, and propose "solutions" that simply do not fly in the real world. Say we had a herd of swine nobody wanted. Economic reality says they're bacon. But without a doubt, *some* folks here would go on endlessly that all "someone" needed to do is retrofit them with wings and they'd make for an excellent package delivery service. There would be endless pontificating about how clever and trainable pigs are, how their crap falling from the sky would be excellent fertilizer, and undoubtedly, some chucklehead would point out that if that became a problem, we could just build a trolley/streetcar/light rail that the pigs could ride instead. Newsflash kids- Daddy Warbucks ain't coming to build SwinEx any sooner than "somebody" is gonna re-use the old courthouse. (Nor, sadly, The Bostwick, or any of the other hundreds of crumbling buildings that litter our downtown. It just doesn't make economic sense to do so.
BTW.. Funny how I predicted that this thread (like so many others) would be hijacked by the Rail Junkies.
Can we get back to the Old Courthouse now please?
Excuse US !!! ..
Quote from: Pinky on August 13, 2012, 12:12:05 PM
Quote from: Pinky on August 11, 2012, 10:42:40 AM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 11, 2012, 09:56:29 AM
Quote from: Pinky on August 10, 2012, 05:46:27 PM
I'm not advocating more empty space, I'm advocating a riverfront chain of parks. East Bay is dying, and as a resident of East Bay I think that a park would do more to help our neighborhood (and all of downtown) than more empty, obsolete buildings.
Me thinkith that you have tipped your hand.
They're obsolete. That's why we spent 150 bazillion dollars building new ones. And as far as waiting for someone to come in and throw away huge sums of money to try to re-purpose them, it just isn't happening. 1/3 of the annex has NO WINDOWS. Do you want to live there? The courthouse doesn't even function as a courthouse, much less anything else. Both buildings are literally falling apart.
But I'm glad you've brought this up, so that I may rant for a few minutes.. There is a real tendancy among a number of posters here to ignore simple economic reality, and propose "solutions" that simply do not fly in the real world. Say we had a herd of swine nobody wanted. Economic reality says they're bacon. But without a doubt, *some* folks here would go on endlessly that all "someone" needed to do is retrofit them with wings and they'd make for an excellent package delivery service. There would be endless pontificating about how clever and trainable pigs are, how their crap falling from the sky would be excellent fertilizer, and undoubtedly, some chucklehead would point out that if that became a problem, we could just build a trolley/streetcar/light rail that the pigs could ride instead. Newsflash kids- Daddy Warbucks ain't coming to build SwinEx any sooner than "somebody" is gonna re-use the old courthouse. (Nor, sadly, The Bostwick, or any of the other hundreds of crumbling buildings that litter our downtown. It just doesn't make economic sense to do so.
BTW.. Funny how I predicted that this thread (like so many others) would be hijacked by the Rail Junkies.
Can we get back to the Old Courthouse now please?
Why not build a track down the middle of Bay Street and convert the Old Courthouse into a train station ;D