If you look at the stats....Jacksonville has a largest city and metro population. Jacksonville International Airport is larger than OKC's Will Rogers World Airport. Jacksonville has an overall larger advantage over Oklahoma City in just about every aspect. SO MY QUESTION IS.........WHY CANT JACKSONVILLE SUPPORT A NBA TEAM?!?
Quote from: KennyLovesJAX on May 14, 2012, 05:02:18 PM
If you look at the stats....Jacksonville has a largest city and metro population. Jacksonville International Airport is larger than OKC's Will Rogers World Airport. Jacksonville has an overall larger advantage over Oklahoma City in just about every aspect. SO MY QUESTION IS.........WHY CANT JACKSONVILLE SUPPORT A NBA TEAM?!?
Gotta love the spirit...but the answer is obvious.
Where there's a will, there's a way. There's no will here for an NBA team right now. I think the sports topic on most people's mind is getting the Jags game full 8 times a year.
what are the disposable income and corporate stats between the two? OKC lucked out that they got to house the Hornets for 2 seasons after Katrina.
The same reason OKC will never get an NFL team. Both of these markets can only support one major sports franchise at best.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2012, 05:39:19 PM
The same reason OKC will never get an NFL team. Both of these markets can only support one major sports franchise at best.
Yup pretty much. At best, we possiably could a NBA D-leauge team. We could support something of that magnitude. But not an actual NBA, no. The Jags are it here for a long time.
OKC got their chance when Katrina hit NO and they got to host the Hornets. People in OKC went crazy over the NBA. That's what Jacksonville needs is a big break like that. Here's the question: will NBA even consider Jacksonville after the media made it a poster child with the Jaguars? I'm sure people would come out to the games. Jacksonville just has a bad reputation of being a backwoods town overran by a megachurch.
It's still way too early to infer anything about NBA viability in Oklahoma City. Wayne Weaver referenced Jags attendance for the first few seasons as "artificial attendance," inflated by civic pride and initial excitement but ultimately unsustainable in a market our size. It's one thing to support a brand new championship caliber Thunder franchise with Kevin Durant, Russell Westbrook, James Harden, and Serge Ibaka, it's another thing entirely to put 18,000 in the building against a losing, starless franchise for a Wednesday night game against the Raptors. Much larger markets like New Orleans, Philly, and Houston are having trouble filling seats as of late. With ticket prices as high as they are coupled with the current NBA business model, the only place the NBA makes sense in 2012 are big metros with huge population bases and strong corporate presence. It's nothing at all against Jax, would love to see it someday, but it just wouldn't work right now. I've never seen any indication this is a basketball city either.
Quote from: thelakelander on May 14, 2012, 05:39:19 PM
The same reason OKC will never get an NFL team. Both of these markets can only support one major sports franchise at best.
+100
This does bring up a good question. What type of pro team would Jax land as it's 2nd? (For arguments sake let's just say we had a larger population base, same demographics as now.) Personally I miss hockey, but judging by the attedance at the defunct lizard kings & barracudas, there's not too many hockey fans in town.
The Oklahoma City Thunder has a weird arena name for the arena, Chesapeake Energy Arena (formerly Ford Center). The company Chesapeake Energy is a gas company that's actually based (and founded) in OKC; Apparently the company only has 'Chesapeake' in it because of the former president love of the Chesapeake Bay area; That makes 'perfect' sense.
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 14, 2012, 06:01:16 PM
OKC got their chance when Katrina hit NO and they got to host the Hornets. People in OKC went crazy over the NBA. That's what Jacksonville needs is a big break like that. Here's the question: will NBA even consider Jacksonville after the media made it a poster child with the Jaguars? I'm sure people would come out to the games. Jacksonville just has a bad reputation of being a backwoods town overran by a megachurch.
Yeah but your Analysis falls flat when one realizes that many... no, in fact, HUGE numbers of folks that attend that mega church are also JAGS season ticket holders. Personally I think the NBA would be a surprise winner here in Jacksonville, but do we have an NBA facility? This isn't about Baptist's, Hare Krishna's, or Nuwaubianism, it's about 'CITY,' what 'CITY' is and what 'CITY' does!
Being about half Okie myself, I might add that Oklahoma is an intensive sports crazy state. Years of declining population, farm and ranch failures, and oil and coal industry up's and down's have taken their toll. Hundred's of small towns are all but vacant across the state, towns that held 20,000-30,000 people during the great oil booms, hold out with 500-1,000 today.
A result of all of this has been a rabid support of local sports, 6 man and 8 man football, basketball, baseball, you name it, if the gate's are open, 499 out of 500 people in town are in the stands. Win or lose these die-hards refuse to quit and small town sports are about all that is left for them.
Add to this an amazing migration into the few largest city's in the state, and of course OKC being dead center, and a major cross roads of interstates, pipelines and rail, it's a winning formula for them. Add to this the MAPS, MAPS FOR KIDS and the new MAPS 3 projects... Projects which were similar to 'Better Jacksonville' but have been followed through to completion. See the short video: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps-out-big-plans/article/3402004 Jacksonville, is my home, and the nearest thing to a 'home town' that I've ever known, my Jacksonville pride runs deep, but having served on City Council in Oklahoma, I can tell you they are pulling away from us faster then a tornado rolling through a trailer park.
Don't tie your wagon to the OKC's is just like JAX'es horse partner, 'cause this horse won't pull. We are years apart.
OCKLAWAHA
GO POKES!
QuoteThe Jags are it here for a long time.
Money talks and who is to say, you or me, if someone walks in with 500 million and wants to bring the NBA to Jax, it could happen.
Quote from: David on May 14, 2012, 08:16:53 PM
This does bring up a good question. What type of pro team would Jax land as it's 2nd? (For arguments sake let's just say we had a larger population base, same demographics as now.) Personally I miss hockey, but judging by the attedance at the defunct lizard kings & barracudas, there's not too many hockey fans in town.
Basketball. For arguments sake. One thing to think about with professional basketball, a lot of spectators will come (and root for) the star(s) of the opposing teams. Like with the NJ Nets of the 90s. Even Jacksonville would sell out when Kobe et al comes to town. The Nets MVP was their VP of promotion who gave out a 5 game bundle of Jordan, Barkley, Ewing, ect.
Could be the same for Jax . This probably works in smaller markets like OK city, Sacremento, ect.
And NJ, LA Clippers.... I havent been to NBA since those Nets. But Id definitely check out ONE Jax NBA game!!!
Then Id be addicted!
:-)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 14, 2012, 11:04:11 PM
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 14, 2012, 06:01:16 PM
OKC got their chance when Katrina hit NO and they got to host the Hornets. People in OKC went crazy over the NBA. That's what Jacksonville needs is a big break like that. Here's the question: will NBA even consider Jacksonville after the media made it a poster child with the Jaguars? I'm sure people would come out to the games. Jacksonville just has a bad reputation of being a backwoods town overran by a megachurch.
Yeah but your Analysis falls flat when one realizes that many... no, in fact, HUGE numbers of folks that attend that mega church are also JAGS season ticket holders. Personally I think the NBA would be a surprise winner here in Jacksonville, but do we have an NBA facility? This isn't about Baptist's, Hare Krishna's, or Nuwaubianism, it's about 'CITY,' what 'CITY' is and what 'CITY' does!
Being about half Okie myself, I might add that Oklahoma is an intensive sports crazy state. Years of declining population, farm and ranch failures, and oil and coal industry up's and down's have taken their toll. Hundred's of small towns are all but vacant across the state, towns that held 20,000-30,000 people during the great oil booms, hold out with 500-1,000 today.
A result of all of this has been a rabid support of local sports, 6 man and 8 man football, basketball, baseball, you name it, if the gate's are open, 499 out of 500 people in town are in the stands. Win or lose these die-hards refuse to quit and small town sports are about all that is left for them.
Add to this an amazing migration into the few largest city's in the state, and of course OKC being dead center, and a major cross roads of interstates, pipelines and rail, it's a winning formula for them. Add to this the MAPS, MAPS FOR KIDS and the new MAPS 3 projects... Projects which were similar to 'Better Jacksonville' but have been followed through to completion. See the short video: http://newsok.com/oklahoma-city-maps-out-big-plans/article/3402004 Jacksonville, is my home, and the nearest thing to a 'home town' that I've ever known, my Jacksonville pride runs deep, but having served on City Council in Oklahoma, I can tell you they are pulling away from us faster then a tornado rolling through a trailer park.
Don't tie your wagon to the OKC's is just like JAX'es horse partner, 'cause this horse won't pull. We are years apart.
OCKLAWAHA
GO POKES!
Ock, read closely. Jacksonville "has a reputation of being a backwoods town overran by a megachurch". Sadly, why the BJP could not follow through baffles me. And since the media has bashed in the Jaguars, it's going to be even harder to get another professional sports team here. It's sad, because I think the reason for the small attendance is just not winning. That's always the main reason for poor attendance for any team with any sport. I think an NBA team would do well in Jacksonville. I think there's enough basketball fans to pull it off.
QuoteYeah but your Analysis falls flat when one realizes that many... no, in fact, HUGE numbers of folks that attend that mega church are also JAGS season ticket holders.
Are they the club seat ticket holders? The ones who don't show up for the games.
Quote from: David on May 14, 2012, 08:16:53 PM
This does bring up a good question. What type of pro team would Jax land as it's 2nd? (For arguments sake let's just say we had a larger population base, same demographics as now.) Personally I miss hockey, but judging by the attedance at the defunct lizard kings & barracudas, there's not too many hockey fans in town.
I think a MLB soccer team could do well here. We have good number for the US Scotland game. The Destroyers are ranked 5th in attendance and the BASL has a large number of players.
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 04:46:51 AM
I think an NBA team would do well in Jacksonville. I think there's enough basketball fans to pull it off.
attendance at JU and UNF (both D1 schools) basketball games doesn't support this assertion
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 15, 2012, 08:12:33 AM
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 04:46:51 AM
I think an NBA team would do well in Jacksonville. I think there's enough basketball fans to pull it off.
attendance at JU and UNF (both D1 schools) basketball games doesn't support this assertion
No offense, but these are two low level D-1 schools in a very terrible A-Sun League and they can't even win those championships. You are comparing apples and oranges. We are talking about the NBA, professional sports filled with a team of players that were all the best of the best in college. Not even close.
there might be a good number of basketball fans (if there are, they are hiding when the NCAAs are on), but will they pay NBA ticket prices to watch the JAX team play Cleveland? Portland? Charlotte?
Personally, I'm happy with the Suns, Sharks, and Giants as the "other" pro teams in Jax. They are all great fun, competetive, and inexpensive. If we're missing anything it would be soccer or hockey.
I remember going to see the public Orlando Magic scrimmage when they were holding their preseason training at UNF. Dwight Howard was there, as was Jameer Nelson, Hedo, Grant Hill, and JJ Redick straight out of Duke. Decent crowd, but the small gym wasn't even close to sold out. There were empty seats when the 2004 Olympic Team played Puerto Rico in 2004. Places like Sneakers and Buffalo Wild Wings here in town are packed for football season, and deserted for the NBA Playoffs.
The reason the city finally recieved an NFL franchise is simple:
There was demand for it.
I just don't see any empirical evidence, aside from a few hundred scattered fans at Giants games, that there is any demand for professional basketball in this city.
I respect Brown's confidence in the city when he discusses an NBA team, but sadly, it's typical Jacksonville to neglect the resources we already have (the Jaguars) to chase whatever the next carrot on a string is to supposedly make the country take us seriously.
To answer the question though, in a perfect world where the metro could support it, major league baseball would be incredible in Jacksonville, with a 30,000 seat throwback ballpark on the St. John's River overlooking downtown. The city's baseball heritage is far richer (though disgusting at times) than any other major sport except football, and the Suns normally draw pretty decent crowds. I think it could work if there metro were to double.
That aside though, Jacksonville really is a pretty damn great sports city. Between the NFL, arena football, the Suns, college basketball, two huge college football games, the Player's Championship, FSU/UF baseball, the occasionally NCAA Tournament games, the Giants, etc., there's actually quite a lot going on for a city this size.
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 04:46:51 AM
I think an NBA team would do well in Jacksonville. I think there's enough basketball fans to pull it off.
I'm with you on this. If someone came to town with a franchise, all the naysayers would jump on the bandwagon. Lets consider the differences of the game. Its indoor, so a bit more family oriented. Like, how can one NOT take the kids to a game each year. Its a great idea to take friends, out of towners, your neighbors to a game (or two). Its a NBA franchise! Even with a minority of people who get addicted to the sport, you'll get repeaters who come to games. Then you generate enthusiasm for the team, which allows significant pull for the less stellar teams.
Anti redneck is right, theres enough fans for an NBA franchise.
Im remembering going to watch the Nets play. Its really a lot of fun.
Damn you, MetroJax! I'm getting goose bumps just thinking about it.
For its size and its location within an oversupplied state and within the South, Jacksonville does quite ok. The SE and FL are horrible professional sports markets in general. The only really successful teams are the Braves (look at the area with which they pull fans due to lack of other teams), the Heat (now that they have had Shaq and Lebron), the Saints (after their SuperBowl season), the Predators (ironically Nashville is a great hockey town), and that's really it.
Even the largest cities in the south have a hard time filling stadiums (the Thrashers left Atlanta for Canada and numbers aren't good for Tampa Bay teams). The only reason Charlotte and Nashville have multiple teams is because they have larger population draws within the metro and the state with little to no market competition.
Quote from: jerry cornwell on May 15, 2012, 10:23:36 AM
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 04:46:51 AM
I think an NBA team would do well in Jacksonville. I think there's enough basketball fans to pull it off.
I'm with you on this. If someone came to town with a franchise, all the naysayers would jump on the bandwagon. Lets consider the differences of the game. Its indoor, so a bit more family oriented. Like, how can one NOT take the kids to a game each year. Its a great idea to take friends, out of towners, your neighbors to a game (or two). Its a NBA franchise! Even with a minority of people who get addicted to the sport, you'll get repeaters who come to games. Then you generate enthusiasm for the team, which allows significant pull for the less stellar teams.
Anti redneck is right, theres enough fans for an NBA franchise.
Im remembering going to watch the Nets play. Its really a lot of fun.
Damn you, MetroJax! I'm getting goose bumps just thinking about it.
Like Ken said, we've had NBA games here before and no one goes. Just going to a game or two a year is not going to support an NBA franchise with 82 games. Football is far more popular than basketball and we can't sell out Jags games.
Here's my take based off of 100% perception - no hard facts.
The talk of bringing in another sports team to Jax at the professional level is ludicrous.
The NBA has 41 home games a season - do you guys really believe that we will sell enough season tix to support it? The financial structure is completely different than football. NBA guys get PAID, as in guaranteed contracts. It takes a lot of $$$ to maintain the franchise. The owners are claiming that they're losing money - hence the lockout that we just had. The NBA is going to contract before it expands, IMO. With a team in Miami, Orlando, NO, Charlotte & Atlanta, I just don't see them putting another team in this area.
AAA Baseball I think would do OK, but I think we'll do better by keeping an AA team here. It's baseball. Until you move up to the MLB level, you're still in the minor leagues be it AAA, AA or even A, and we're totally not ready for an 82 game a year commitment from 30k people. Not going to happen. I would like to see them move a spring training facility a little closer, though, to generate some more pre-season interest from an MLB team. But even that is probably a pipe-dream.
Hockey - I thought we did OK with the Lizard Kings. With the amount of northern implants we have, we should have a decent hockey following - enough for the minor leagues. I always thought they left because of a contact dispute with the Arena.
Does any believe that if we were awarded a basketball team that fans would support team they are already fans of? If the Lakers, Celtics, or Bulls came to town might not be a pretty sight for the home team. Then what happens when Cleveland, or the Bobcats come to town. We need to focus on our downtown, transportation and bringing new business to town and be very thankful we have an NFL franchise. Jacksonville can not support another major franchise, IMHO.
Hockey--the Barracudas had a loyal following, but small, and the folks running the arena were too lazy to be bothered with changing the floor for the various events.
Arena football-- has had good success, which is great. The cost per person, is much lower than NFL.
Baseball--AA is the best. I'm not just saying this because I used to usher for the Suns. AA is a level where the players are working hard to move up, or have had a ton of experience, and working towards retirement. This is very exciting. The cost is reasonable (about $6-20), you are very close to the field, parking is not much ($5) or sometimes on the street. Many of the pros today went through Jacksonville, either with the Suns, or other teams. I spent 5 years there, and watched many future stars. Take a look at the Dodgers, Marlins, and others. Evan Longoria played here (with a visiting team), Clayton Kershaw (Dodgers), Mike Stanton, Marlins, and many more.
You don't really want AAA, as this is basically rehab from the majors. The cost to run are much more and the tickets would be higher. I much prefer minor league to the majors, any day.
Pro B-ball--since the money is guaranteed, it seems to be more about ego, than ball. I watch college, but not much interest in current pro ball. I grew up with the Lakers in the 80's, and it was a much different game then.
Quote from: jerry cornwell on May 15, 2012, 10:23:36 AM
Anti redneck is right, theres enough fans for an NBA franchise.
Though I disagree that with your statement, you left out the "willing to spend over $50 per ticket per game ten times a month (the NBA average, not including parking or concessions)."
Huge difference between civic pride and economic reality.
We'd need a new Arena too, as VM isn't up to NBA capacity or standards.
There's only so much discretionary income in a mid-sized US metro of 1.2 million.
It's a true miracle that the city can support the Jags (an incredible accomplishment that too few are proud of when you compare per capita support among NFL franchises).
Adding another major league sports franchise without at least doubling the population will only serve the dual purpose of sinking both the NFL and NBA in Jacksonville.
Quote from: simms3 on May 15, 2012, 10:24:14 AM
For its size and its location within an oversupplied state and within the South, Jacksonville does quite ok. The SE and FL are horrible professional sports markets in general. The only really successful teams are the Braves (look at the area with which they pull fans due to lack of other teams), the Heat (now that they have had Shaq and Lebron), the Saints (after their SuperBowl season), the Predators (ironically Nashville is a great hockey town), and that's really it.
Even the largest cities in the south have a hard time filling stadiums (the Thrashers left Atlanta for Canada and numbers aren't good for Tampa Bay teams). The only reason Charlotte and Nashville have multiple teams is because they have larger population draws within the metro and the state with little to no market competition.
Actually, the Southeast does quite well for all sports except hockey, especially when you include Texas. Florida is the consistent exception. The much bigger issues for Jacksonville's NBA hopes would be the lack of a venue/will to build a new one, the size of the market relative to regional saturation, and lack of a strong basketball culture.
Quote from: cline on May 15, 2012, 10:28:30 AM
Like Ken said, we've had NBA games here before and no one goes. Just going to a game or two a year is not going to support an NBA franchise with 82 games. Football is far more popular than basketball and we can't sell out Jags games.
That's true - and really the heart of it. There are only a few cities of around Jacksonville's size that support more than one major league team, and generally speaking, it's often very difficult for the teams. And even when there is a strong culture for a sport, the particulars of the business and outside issues can still make it different. Just look at Charlotte's struggles with the NBA despite North Carolina's substantial basketball tradition.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 15, 2012, 09:52:17 AM
That aside though, Jacksonville really is a pretty damn great sports city. Between the NFL, arena football, the Suns, college basketball, two huge college football games, the Player's Championship, FSU/UF baseball, the occasionally NCAA Tournament games, the Giants, etc., there's actually quite a lot going on for a city this size.
Agree 100%. We're truly a fantastic sports city.
Quote from: KenFSU on May 15, 2012, 11:20:25 AM
Quote from: jerry cornwell on May 15, 2012, 10:23:36 AM
Anti redneck is right, theres enough fans for an NBA franchise.
Though I disagree that with your statement, you left out the "willing to spend over $50 per ticket per game ten times a month (the NBA average, not including parking or concessions)."
Huge difference between civic pride and economic reality.
We'd need a new Arena too, as VM isn't up to NBA capacity or standards.
There's only so much discretionary income in a mid-sized US metro of 1.2 million.
It's a true miracle that the city can support the Jags (an incredible accomplishment that too few are proud of when you compare per capita support among NFL franchises).
Adding another major league sports franchise without at least doubling the population will only serve the dual purpose of sinking both the NFL and NBA in Jacksonville.
This, and all the other points are true, perhaps I was taking my own experience with the NBA too liberally.
I would just think that if the NBA came here to land a franchise, things would go to a different level. But the franchise itself would take into account all these points brought up. And, yes, the points alone would make a Jacksonville franchise unlikely.
Anytime soon.
is there a reason why when they built the arena that they didn't built it to NBA/NHL standard?
Quote from: Rynjny on May 15, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
is there a reason why when they built the arena that they didn't built it to NBA/NHL standard?
It would have been more expensive and there wasn't a pressing reason to build it that size. It was built to accommodate the scale of events that it does host. There are relatively few events that require a substantially bigger venue than that. If, in the future, we attracted an NBA or NHL team they would want a new arena anyway.
Speaking as one who has limited disposable income, I appreciate the fact we have so many excellent semi-pro teams here. One can go to a baseball, basketball or arena football game and actually be able to afford the ticket. Maybe because I enjoy sports, but am not a huge sports nut, I don't need the NBA/NFL/MLB level of professional play to enjoy the game.
In all this discussion, I have not seen anyone mention our minor league basketball team that has won two championships, all with very low attendance. The Giants didn't have a very long season and the tickets were dirt cheap but media coverage was next to nothing and attendance, from what I saw, was also next to nothing. I agree with many here that this city is just not ready to support an NBA team, no matter how badly the mayor wants it.
I think the lack of prior mention of the Giants is rather telling.....
Quote from: cline on May 15, 2012, 07:58:11 AM
QuoteYeah but your Analysis falls flat when one realizes that many... no, in fact, HUGE numbers of folks that attend that mega church are also JAGS season ticket holders.
Are they the club seat ticket holders? The ones who don't show up for the games.
You might be on to something.
The #1 selling tool is media. It controls our minds, it tells us what we should and should not want. You might think I sound crazy, but you should also think of what I'm saying.
You put enough NBA in people's faces, they're going to start liking it. The media says Jacksonville doesn't have what it takes to hold an NFL team, the people believe it.
Throw some positive media out there, and they're might be more positive results.
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
The #1 selling tool is media. It controls our minds, it tells us what we should and should not want. You might think I sound crazy, but you should also think of what I'm saying.
You put enough NBA in people's faces, they're going to start liking it. The media says Jacksonville doesn't have what it takes to hold an NFL team, the people believe it.
Throw some positive media out there, and they're might be more positive results.
Totally understand what you're saying, but that still doesn't change the fact that the average NBA gate is $1 million per game.
Throw in parking, concessions, and some team clothing purchases at Sportsmania and suddenly we're looking at a very conservative $50 million a year discretionary income committment to make a second professional sport work.
That money has to come from somewhere, preferably from a sizeable population growth.
Otherwise, even if the NBA were to come to Jacksonville, and even if it were a runaway success, it wouldn't be possible without dooming something else. The Jaguars. The Alhambra. The Symphony. The movie theaters. The concert halls. The Sharks. The Suns. Restaurants.
Probably a combination of many of these.
It's not a knock on the city's will or determination of anything to that effect, simply a matter of too little money floating around to make it economically possible, especially with an NFL team in the same market.
Quote from: Rynjny on May 15, 2012, 11:38:52 AM
is there a reason why when they built the arena that they didn't built it to NBA/NHL standard?
it was designed with expansion in mind....add an upper bowl to the west end and the arena would meet the minimum standards (capacity of about 18,000 for games)
Quote from: KenFSU on May 15, 2012, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
The #1 selling tool is media. It controls our minds, it tells us what we should and should not want. You might think I sound crazy, but you should also think of what I'm saying.
You put enough NBA in people's faces, they're going to start liking it. The media says Jacksonville doesn't have what it takes to hold an NFL team, the people believe it.
Throw some positive media out there, and they're might be more positive results.
Totally understand what you're saying, but that still doesn't change the fact that the average NBA gate is $1 million per game.
Throw in parking, concessions, and some team clothing purchases at Sportsmania and suddenly we're looking at a very conservative $50 million a year discretionary income committment to make a second professional sport work.
That money has to come from somewhere, preferably from a sizeable population growth.
Otherwise, even if the NBA were to come to Jacksonville, and even if it were a runaway success, it wouldn't be possible without dooming something else. The Jaguars. The Alhambra. The Symphony. The movie theaters. The concert halls. The Sharks. The Suns. Restaurants.
Probably a combination of many of these.
It's not a knock on the city's will or determination of anything to that effect, simply a matter of too little money floating around to make it economically possible, especially with an NFL team in the same market.
Well it's not like we can go out there right now and compete for an NBA expansion team, let alone move one here. If we got a team tomorrow, it would be set for failure. There are good reasons to why the Jags can't sell, winning being a main reason. Media has the Jags all wrong. However, there are quite a few things Jacksonville has:
An arena still fairly new and easily upgradeable,
A population that could be persuaded to jump the bandwagon,
A downtown that has a beautiful view of the river and much, much potential if marketed and regulated properly (less regulated),
Potential to bring and add jobs to town, some of those workers being basketball fans,
A mayor that just happens to be a basketball fan himself and will hopefully take the steps needed to grow and improve the city enough to attract the eyes of the NBA......
I could go on and on. The potential that this town has is just amazing. I can't believe that politics have kept it from coming alive like it should.
Furthermore, it should not hurt the Symphony, Suns, Sharks, etc. If anything, it should help them. If you are referring to the Alhambra on Beach Blvd., it's too far away from downtown for it to even be messed with. The other theaters should be able to feed off the NBA's business and vice versa. The concert halls? Well I personally think it's time for some new concert halls as it is already, but I still don't believe they would be hurt.
Some more random probably meaningless numbers....
RANK - TEAM - ANNUAL ATTENDANCE - GAMES - AVERAGE ATTENDANCE
38 Oklahoma City RedHawks PCL 367,082 67 5,478
48 Jacksonville Suns SL 354,725 69 5,140
RANK - TEAM - GAMES - ANNUAL ATTENDANCE - AVERAGE ATTENDANCE
13 Thunder 33 600,699 18,203
9 Magic 33 623,587 18,896
4 Heat 33 657,855 19,935
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on May 15, 2012, 01:11:03 PM
Speaking as one who has limited disposable income, I appreciate the fact we have so many excellent semi-pro teams here. One can go to a baseball, basketball or arena football game and actually be able to afford the ticket. Maybe because I enjoy sports, but am not a huge sports nut, I don't need the NBA/NFL/MLB level of professional play to enjoy the game.
Debbie, it's a city pride thing. When there is a professional sports team in your own backyard, not only is your team, but your city as well, is competing on a national level. Me? I would love to see more professional sports teams here. I wish the rest of the city shared the same vision.
I'm not necessarily saying that this is the case with Jax, but I truly believe that some cities don't care much for certain sports.
LA and NFL football is without say.
San Diego originally had two NBA teams, the Rockets (I know, weird right) and the Clippers.
Atlanta originally had the two NHL teams, the Flames, and the Thrashers.
I predict that if Jax gets a NBA team, the first couple of seasons would be okay concerning attendance regardless of team success, then over the years if the team continues to struggle with average or below-average seasons, the fanbase will fall off hard, they would be like ghost; You think that the Jaguars attendance fell off in the lean year of 08, try having a struggling NBA team here for a couple of years. I think alot of folks are being caught up with Memphis's and OKC's early success in those small markets; As someone already eluded to, it's too early to know if they are true NBA cities, a couple of lean years will expose the true diehards from the fakes; Of course most cities' fanbases will fall off a lil' overtime with losing, but the key is not to consistently average a measly number like 7K. I'm personally am not trying to beat down the door for a NBA team in Jax. They aren't gonna expand no time soon anyway hell, they probably have too many teams as it is with the Hornets uncertainty, and Jordan running the Bobcats into the ground.
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 05:32:01 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on May 15, 2012, 04:02:27 PM
Quote from: Anti redneck on May 15, 2012, 03:32:42 PM
The #1 selling tool is media. It controls our minds, it tells us what we should and should not want. You might think I sound crazy, but you should also think of what I'm saying.
You put enough NBA in people's faces, they're going to start liking it. The media says Jacksonville doesn't have what it takes to hold an NFL team, the people believe it.
Throw some positive media out there, and they're might be more positive results.
Totally understand what you're saying, but that still doesn't change the fact that the average NBA gate is $1 million per game.
Throw in parking, concessions, and some team clothing purchases at Sportsmania and suddenly we're looking at a very conservative $50 million a year discretionary income committment to make a second professional sport work.
That money has to come from somewhere, preferably from a sizeable population growth.
Otherwise, even if the NBA were to come to Jacksonville, and even if it were a runaway success, it wouldn't be possible without dooming something else. The Jaguars. The Alhambra. The Symphony. The movie theaters. The concert halls. The Sharks. The Suns. Restaurants.
Probably a combination of many of these.
It's not a knock on the city's will or determination of anything to that effect, simply a matter of too little money floating around to make it economically possible, especially with an NFL team in the same market.
Well it's not like we can go out there right now and compete for an NBA expansion team, let alone move one here. If we got a team tomorrow, it would be set for failure. There are good reasons to why the Jags can't sell, winning being a main reason. Media has the Jags all wrong. However, there are quite a few things Jacksonville has:
An arena still fairly new and easily upgradeable,
A population that could be persuaded to jump the bandwagon,
A downtown that has a beautiful view of the river and much, much potential if marketed and regulated properly (less regulated),
Potential to bring and add jobs to town, some of those workers being basketball fans,
A mayor that just happens to be a basketball fan himself and will hopefully take the steps needed to grow and improve the city enough to attract the eyes of the NBA......
I could go on and on. The potential that this town has is just amazing. I can't believe that politics have kept it from coming alive like it should.
Furthermore, it should not hurt the Symphony, Suns, Sharks, etc. If anything, it should help them. If you are referring to the Alhambra on Beach Blvd., it's too far away from downtown for it to even be messed with. The other theaters should be able to feed off the NBA's business and vice versa. The concert halls? Well I personally think it's time for some new concert halls as it is already, but I still don't believe they would be hurt.
I agree. I think the future will be brighter for Jacksonville to climb up the ladder for consideration of a NBA franchise.
It seems the NBA or the sports media have strong ideas towards expansion in Europe. Speaking of cities lacking desire for certain sports. But, as Ive been exposed to Europe for a few years, they are rabid for professional basketball!
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/638617-nba-expansion-10-cities-in-10-years/page/13
I just have doubts about its practicality.
Quote from: I-10east on May 16, 2012, 06:43:40 AM
I think alot of folks are being caught up with Memphis's and OKC's early success in those small markets;
Market size doesn't seem to dictate fan base, loyalty or tickets sold. Market share for TV commercials is where the big bucks are, in which case we are regressing. According to the Nielson Ratings
NATIONAL TV MARKET SIZE...
NYC is number 1
Los Angeles is number 2, The NFL LA Raiders averaged 44,285 per game in a stadium seating 93,607 fans. As for the Ram's - Raiders etc... If your living in LOS ANGELES, on a typically Mediterranean day, who the hell want's to go watch football?
Tampa is number 14
Miami/FLL is number 16
Orlando is number 19
Raleigh is number 24
Charlotte is number 25
Birmingham is number 39 up one point from last year.
OKLAHOMA CITY is number 44 up one point from last year.
Memphis is number 49
...And Jacksonville is number 50, down one from last year!
How is/or why is Tampa ahead of Miami and Orlando? I find that interesting.
(http://inlinethumb55.webshots.com/48950/2911474740104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
We are screwed because except for 'Middleburg' Jacksonville's market covers a lot of pine trees.
(http://inlinethumb16.webshots.com/49231/2828890560104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Check out Tampa, they are able to count from the edge of Orlando to Sarasota and Dunnellon.
(http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/50887/2095026990104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
Miami is screwed because the Everglades eat's about 75% of it's market area.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on May 16, 2012, 12:57:52 PM
Quote from: I-10east on May 16, 2012, 06:43:40 AM
I think alot of folks are being caught up with Memphis's and OKC's early success in those small markets;
Market size doesn't seem to dictate fan base, loyalty or tickets sold. Market share for TV commercials is where the big bucks are, in which case we are regressing. According to the Nielson Ratings
NATIONAL TV MARKET SIZE...
NYC is number 1
Los Angeles is number 2, The NFL LA Raiders averaged 44,285 per game in a stadium seating 93,607 fans. As for the Ram's - Raiders etc... If your living in LOS ANGELES, on a typically Mediterranean day, who the hell want's to go watch football?
Tampa is number 14
Miami/FLL is number 16
Orlando is number 19
Raleigh is number 24
Charlotte is number 25
Birmingham is number 39 up one point from last year.
OKLAHOMA CITY is number 44 up one point from last year.
Memphis is number 49
...And Jacksonville is number 50, down one from last year!
This is where you get into the complexities of sports business.
Sticking just with television, in addition to the primary television markets, teams also have secondary markets which are sometimes larger than their primary markets. The most famous example of this is Green Bay, as their games are broadcast in the much larger Milwaukee market as well as most of Wisconsin. In our case, Jacksonville's only the 50th largest TV market, but Jaguars games are also broadcast in the huge Orlando-Melbourne-Daytona market as well as in smaller ones like Gainesville. OKC benefits from being the only game in the state, so their games will be shown throughout, though their secondary markets are still pretty small.
Additionally, there's also the matter of
national television rights and revenue sharing. Sports games make money wherever they're aired, not just in the local market. In the NBA (and other leagues), national TV revenues are shared across the league, keeping things sporting and making market area less important.
Moving beyond just TV, all sports teams generate a huge chunk of their income from ticket sales. Regardless of how well they do on TV they still need to sell out at the gate. And due to blackout policies, local TV doesn't matter at all if the games don't sell out, as the games aren't shown. This has been happening a lot recently in the Tampa-St. Pete market - Florida's largest. This is where smaller market teams can really suffer in ways big market teams rarely do. This is where teams like OKC and Memphis will be tested, and where Jacksonville, New Orleans, and Buffalo already have been tested.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on May 16, 2012, 01:40:56 PM
How is/or why is Tampa ahead of Miami and Orlando? I find that interesting.
because West Palm Beach is a separate TV market from Miami....and Tampa is a much larger metro than Orlando, plus the TV market includes Sarasota and Bradenton too
Has Tampa tried getting a NBA team? they already seem pretty maxed out with MLB, NFL, and I believe thay have hockey also.
The city needs to focus on supporting the one major league team we have - the Jaguars. When you consider that much larger markets, like San Antonio, Portland OR, and the Hampton Roads area don't have NFL teams, we're very fortunate.
Besides, I doubt the (new) arena Jax has now would be adequate for an NBA team.
Regarding the Jaguars: I think since the formation of Team Teal in 2009, the city has done a much better job of supporting the team. There has been more of a grassroots effort by the team (and the fans) to reach out to new customers. And Kahn has come up with some good promotions to get more fannies in seats; the half-price tickets for kids is genius. So is the tie-in promotions with the military. Frankly, a lot of this should have been done a long time ago.
I feel like we're over the hump with attendance woes. Last year despite the perfect storm of a bad economy, a lock out, and a moribund coach in Jack Del Rio - we did okay in the stands. This year, thanks to a new owner and a new coach, I'm sensing renewed enthusiasm for the team, and I bet that translates into a lot of extra tickets sold. Tony Boselli has raised the goal to not just avoiding blackouts, but filling every seat. I think that will happen sooner than later.
You want to get another major league team in Jax? Start supporting the Jaguars.
Quote from: KennyLovesJAX on May 14, 2012, 05:02:18 PM
If you look at the stats....Jacksonville has a largest city and metro population. Jacksonville International Airport is larger than OKC's Will Rogers World Airport. Jacksonville has an overall larger advantage over Oklahoma City in just about every aspect. SO MY QUESTION IS.........WHY CANT JACKSONVILLE SUPPORT A NBA TEAM?!?
As soneone who dislikes the fact that people are always talking trash about Duval having the Jaguars. I say leave OKC alone and let them have their team. Go Orlando Magic...RIP to my Sonics and Go Thunder. I dont think we should question OKC at all.
Many of the soccer teams in Europe do the lower cost tickets for kids. Gets the next generation loyal to your brand.