I saw that they are currently building "5000 Town Center" a luxury apartment complex right near Seasons 52. I noticed they are building something further down away from the restaurants like Capital Grille, Mitchell's Fish Market and Dick's Sporting Goods what appears to be a parking garage or something? Can anyone confirm what there are building out there? Thanks everyone!
Quote from: Jagsdrew on May 07, 2012, 01:10:03 PM
I saw that they are currently building "5000 Town Center" a luxury apartment complex right near Seasons 52. I noticed they are building something further down away from the restaurants like Capital Grille, Mitchell's Fish Market and Dick's Sporting Goods what appears to be a parking garage or something? Can anyone confirm what there are building out there? Thanks everyone!
Saw the same stuff yesterday when driving around...no idea what it is. Wish they'd attempt that kind of growth downtown...
I think it is more housing. Looking at the original master plan, it was slated to be residential.
They are apartments. I believe they are the ones this JBJ article is referring to.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/print-edition/2012/02/24/apartments-break-ground-at-st-johns.html?page=all
I love this quote in that article:
“In our view, it’s become more urban â€" if you look at the town center compared to Downtown, there’s as many jobs [in the area]and retail as Downtown,†Bove LLC President Gabe Bove said. “It’s become the new Jacksonville. It’s the fact that you can walk to retail and nightlife.â€
Besides the main little strip, where else can you walk to and not have to traverse miles of parking lots and cars wizzing by on little roads?
Cline beat me to it.
5000 Town, supposed to be completed in April 2013.
Also per that article, it looks like another multi-family project is going up on the other side of Seasons 52 as well.
Dapperdan - both projects are across Big Island Drive from 'the main strip' and there are sidewalks down to the Whiskey River/Suite/Blackfinn cluster.
In fact, even with the parking lots, you can walk from the Georgetown townhouses on one side of the complex all the way to Mitchell's and Seasons 52 and the only 'real' road you cross is Big Island drive down at the south end.
Suburban? Of course. Connected and walkable? In this case, yes.
Obviously Town Center Parkway is the Blanding Blvd of Jacksonville. In ten years or so when all that land across/around the town center is developed into residential, it will be a traffic nightmare. The problem I find with the Town Center is there is only two points of access. One entrance from Gate Parkway is at its tipping point with so much volume of cars and the access from 9A/St Johns/UNF which is relatively an easier way of getting in and out but still sees its fair share of volume. I don't know what the Master Plan of the Town Center consists of but it better transportation motives to get in and out of this area.
There should have been residential on top of the retail stores.
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
There are two seperate complexes being built at the Town Center. In fact five are being built in and around that area all within a few miles of each other (all but one planned before the Mobility Fee moratorium-and that one was already zoned for apartments, the lot just changed ownership... another one of those five was already covered in an existing concurrency agreement). A sixth planned housing development is being proposed near Tapestry Park/Blue Cross.
Whoever said it's walkable/connected is wrong. You can't even walk across the street to get from Blackfinn to Wendys... there is no sidewalk.
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
Having lived in both areas, I strongly disagree. Blanding was a nightmare in the four years I lived in OP and Argyle. For the Town Center, the only traffic nightmare to me if getting off on Gate Parkway from JTB. I just don't go that way. I will take 9A to TCP or St Johns Bluff to TCP. You can get in and out of the Town Center with ease using those two roads.
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
In what...30-40 years?
Quote from: copperfiend on May 07, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
Having lived in both areas, I strongly disagree. Blanding was a nightmare in the four years I lived in OP and Argyle. For the Town Center, the only traffic nightmare to me if getting off on Gate Parkway from JTB. I just don't go that way. I will take 9A to TCP or St Johns Bluff to TCP. You can get in and out of the Town Center with ease using those two roads.
Yeah its alot easier to access that way, still a little congested at times, but easier. I don't know how these roads will handle the volume in the coming years once all the available land is developed.
Appreciate everyone's input though. Sometimes I need someone else's perspective on things.
Quote from: copperfiend on May 07, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
Having lived in both areas, I strongly disagree. Blanding was a nightmare in the four years I lived in OP and Argyle. For the Town Center, the only traffic nightmare to me if getting off on Gate Parkway from JTB. I just don't go that way. I will take 9A to TCP or St Johns Bluff to TCP. You can get in and out of the Town Center with ease using those two roads.
I agree cooperfield. Thats the easier way. Thats usually the way I take. But how long will it last? The way that area is growing it is going to be a nightmare in a few more years.
ok. maybe i exagerrated a little. Blanding is bad, I have really given up going to the SJTC, especially at lunch or saturdays. I dont even use my Costco membership because I dont want to deal with the mess that place has become.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 07, 2012, 02:57:02 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on May 07, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
Having lived in both areas, I strongly disagree. Blanding was a nightmare in the four years I lived in OP and Argyle. For the Town Center, the only traffic nightmare to me if getting off on Gate Parkway from JTB. I just don't go that way. I will take 9A to TCP or St Johns Bluff to TCP. You can get in and out of the Town Center with ease using those two roads.
I agree cooperfield. Thats the easier way. Thats usually the way I take. But how long will it last? The way that area is growing it is going to be a nightmare in a few more years.
Exactly. You used to be able to get around the OP traffic by taking either Collins or Wells, but that's not the case anymore. Blanding used to be a pain in the ass, but absolutely horrendous during the holidays. Well, it must be Christmas everyday there now, I absolutely hate having to make that trip.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on May 07, 2012, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 07, 2012, 02:57:02 PM
Quote from: copperfiend on May 07, 2012, 02:46:19 PM
Quote from: fsujax on May 07, 2012, 02:11:25 PM
it already is worse than Blanding to me! and will get worse, until it starts to decline and ends up like Regency.
Having lived in both areas, I strongly disagree. Blanding was a nightmare in the four years I lived in OP and Argyle. For the Town Center, the only traffic nightmare to me if getting off on Gate Parkway from JTB. I just don't go that way. I will take 9A to TCP or St Johns Bluff to TCP. You can get in and out of the Town Center with ease using those two roads.
I agree cooperfield. Thats the easier way. Thats usually the way I take. But how long will it last? The way that area is growing it is going to be a nightmare in a few more years.
Exactly. You used to be able to get around the OP traffic by taking either Collins or Wells, but that's not the case anymore. Blanding used to be a pain in the ass, but absolutely horrendous during the holidays. Well, it must be Christmas everyday there now, I absolutely hate having to make that trip.
Yeah I stay off Blanding on Morse. I HATE when I have to drive to OP for anything. As soon as you get to the 295 overpass traffic just stops. Blanding is not so bad until you get OP. I actually take Blanding to work some days. Then again, I do have to be to work until 10am, so there is no traffic anyways. Rush hour may be a different story
Thanks yall for the very predictable "It should be in downtown, parking lots, Blanding Blvd-like, and suburban sprawl' remarks; It wouldn't be a SJTC thread without them. ::)
I still go to the backside of the town center for Total Wine and the occasional trip to Dick's. It isn't that bad on that side, I can usually get in and back out on 9A easily. I certainly don't go to anything towards the Gate part.
December there is a nightmare, I will not try that again.
Quote from: Dapperdan on May 07, 2012, 01:32:33 PM
“In our view, it’s become more urban â€" if you look at the town center compared to Downtown, there’s as many jobs [in the area]and retail as Downtown,†Bove LLC President Gabe Bove said. “It’s become the new Jacksonville. It’s the fact that you can walk to retail and nightlife.â€
Besides the main little strip, where else can you walk to and not have to traverse miles of parking lots and cars wizzing by on little roads?
I have believed for a while that residential infill is the best way for the TC to avoid going the way of Regency, but it will never replace DT.
Density within the confines of the TC area is a good thing, but it will need to be better connected to the nearby areas and the region as a whole to succeed. The turn lane from TC Parkway to Gate is already 3 lanes, it's not like they can make it any bigger. There will need to be more options for ingress and egress, but I don't know how they will accomplish that. I would love to see a streetcar run from Best Buy to Target and commuter rail down JTB, but I'm a dreamer.
I'm not going to touch the whole DT vs TC issue. I will say that as long as you can pick up 5 acres with flexible zoning for $1.8 million on the Southside, downtown is going to have a hard time playing catch up.
Quote from: I-10east on May 07, 2012, 03:08:36 PM
Thanks yall for the very predictable "It should be in downtown, parking lots, Blanding Blvd-like, and suburban sprawl' remarks; It wouldn't be a SJTC thread without them. ::)
No kidding... We get it, SJTC traffic sucks, growth at SJTC should be downtown, and there's no parking... lets move on already...
Quote from: duvaldude08 on May 07, 2012, 03:07:01 PM
Yeah I stay off Blanding on Morse. I HATE when I have to drive to OP for anything. As soon as you get to the 295 overpass traffic just stops. Blanding is not so bad until you get OP. I actually take Blanding to work some days. Then again, I do have to be to work until 10am, so there is no traffic anyways. Rush hour may be a different story
When I lived in Argyle, I worked nights at first, so it wasn't bad because I would leave for work around noon. But once I started working a 9-5, it would horrendous. It was so bad at the Blanding exit that sometimes I would get off on 103rd and drive down to Shindler to get to Chimney Lakes.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 07, 2012, 03:18:31 PM
I will say that as long as you can pick up 5 acres with flexible zoning for $1.8 million on the Southside, downtown is going to have a hard time playing catch up.
+1
QuoteThe turn lane from TC Parkway to Gate is already 3 lanes, it's not like they can make it any bigger. There will need to be more options for ingress and egress, but I don't know how they will accomplish that.
I wouldn't be surprised if there were eventually calls for a JTB EB flyover somehow heading into the SJTC or something crazy like that.
Cline, dont give someone an idea! I am sure every taxpayer would be happy to flip the bill for that improvement. Just like the city paid for the traffic signal to be installed on Gate Pkwy for the Florida Blue campus.
Although I'm definitely no philosopher by no means, I do try to be creative, and spontaneous as I can with my remarks; I guess that alot of yall would rather take the opposite approach and go to the 'boring bread and butter' even though this thread wasn't intended for it. That is like the equivalent of me rambling about how the Landing, and the Times Union Center for the Performing Arts should be out in the burbs. So yall keep being in denial, if anything that's 'unsustainable' right now in Jax, it's DT (not that I want it to be that way) it's just a fact. The SJTC is full and thriving, and I know that yall hate that.
QuoteJust like the city paid for the traffic signal to be installed on Gate Pkwy for the Florida Blue campus.
Blue Cross paid for the majority of it(60/40 split). Considering they are in the top 5 in the city in so far as the number of employees on a heavy-auto centric campus... I actually think the traffic light was needed for safety purposes. They were discussing PCT trolley service and decided on the red light instead based on an employee survey they received...
BTW guess who introduced the legislation for that public/private partnership? Don Redman, the downtown councilman(who also received campaing money from BCBSF).... whose greatest hits for downtown also include the legalization of gator hunting in the city. Way to represent your constituents Don!
QuoteSo yall keep being in denial
Quite the contrary... you're in denial if you drink a developers kool-aid calling an auto-centric mall that lacks basic amenities such as proper sidewalks as being a 'walkable urban environment'.
Here are two 'lifestyle centers' in comparable suburban locations:
Reston Town Center (Virgina-an exurb of DC quite comparable to the Southside)
(http://www.aboutobjects.com/images/locations/RestonTownCenter.jpg)
Markets at Town Center (Jacksonville)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1390801634_zQZGn2M-L.jpg)
Notice any glaring differences?
QuoteSJTC is full and thriving, and I know that yall hate that.
Also quite the contrary. The Southside should have better zoning in place that encourages more fiscally responsible development... zoning that encourages high density mixed use and discourages things like no sidewalks, large surface parking lots which strains things like stormwater runoff and three curb cuts fronting a busy intersection less than 20 feet from each other.
^^^Yup, those taller buildings really make the difference in VA....
Just because the SJTC doesn't have block streets with sidewalks at close intervals doesn't mean it isn't thriving.
Quote from: I-10east on May 07, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
^^^Yup, those taller buildings really make the difference in VA....
Just because the SJTC doesn't have block streets with sidewalks at close intervals doesn't mean it isn't thriving.
Re-read what I wrote... I never said it wasn't 'thriving'. In fact, that was not my point at all. Try reading things critically and digseting the information before responding.
Quote from: I-10east on May 07, 2012, 04:32:06 PM
^^^Yup, those taller buildings really make the difference in VA....
Just because the SJTC doesn't have block streets with sidewalks at close intervals doesn't mean it isn't thriving.
Have you ever seen ants swarm a piece of food?? That's thriving too, but it doesn't last long and it just leaves behind a mess.
I'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on May 07, 2012, 03:18:31 PM
I'm not going to touch the whole DT vs TC issue. I will say that as long as you can pick up 5 acres with flexible zoning for $1.8 million on the Southside, downtown is going to have a hard time playing catch up.
This. And I have to add all the job growth is on the SS, so logically that is where new multifamily will go, as well as new hotels and new office. City leaders and private business leaders need to find a way to convince firms that normally locate downtown in other cities to locate downtown in Jacksonville. The nature of the Jacksonville economy also lends itself to suburban office and industrial. It's not a "corporate" town in the sense that Atlanta, Boston, Charlotte, Pittsburgh and Chicago are.
Have you ever seen ants swarm a piece of food?? That's thriving too, but it doesn't last long and it just leaves behind a mess.
[/quote]
I like it when the ants eat too much and they end up just passing out/dying on top of the food. thats the way i would want to go out!
QuoteSo yall keep being in denial, if anything that's 'unsustainable' right now in Jax, it's DT (not that I want it to be that way) it's just a fact. The SJTC is full and thriving, and I know that yall hate that.
What is your definition of "sustainable"? In 2-3 decades once the "newest" mall opens up somewhere else the SJTC will become what Regency is now. That's not sustainability in my opinion. The SJTC is thriving right now but how long will it last?
QuoteI'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.
Again... never said that the mall is 'taking things directly away from downtown' either.
The St Johns Town Center is indicative of the fiscally disastrous development patterns this city has encouraged over the past three decades. Until there is incentive for high-density, fiscally responsible building in areas like this instead of the low-density development that taxpayers carry on their strained and broken backs... then I am going to continue to criticize as I am sick of the large cost burdens on the public whose negative effects have disenfranchised what could be a thriving a city. All the while the city goes bankrupt capitulating to the unsaistanable strain this places on the already overburdened budget.
You can stick your head in the sand and ignore the huge gaping holes in the city's budget caused by overburdened requirements of capital improvements and large bond issues to develop fringe malls, but that doesn't change reality.
Quote from: I-10east on May 07, 2012, 04:41:54 PM
I'm sorry Field, but over-criticizing a suburban mall as if it is really is taking things directly away from downtown isn't my thing.
I think the main issue here is what its always been. Nothing's wrong with malls & development in the suburbs, but not at the expense of your actual downtown & urban areas. Bulldozing it & letting it rot, all the while fancy new development, car-centric "urban centers", etc pop up in the suburbs is a giant slap in the face to anyone who takes this stuff seriously. And all the "south side & the Town Center is the new downtown" talk is just ridiculous & hammers home the fact that this town as a whole just doesn't get it.
When you don't have a downtown that's alive, you don't have a city. It's really as simple as that.
I'm looking forward to the next SJTC thread in the future, with forty-five posts that all talk about what could have been in downtown.
I'm telling you! Construct a town center in downtown, except give it a downtown feel to it. Have taller buildings and apartments on top of the shops, like in the VA picture. Brown wants to revitalize downtown, what better way to do it?
Downtown malls aren't a panacea, especially if everything they provide is already duplicated by suburban malls (New Orleans Riverwalk and Shops at Canal Place).
Yeah you don't want/need a "mall" downtown, you only need to have all the same amenities and entertainment that serve (mainly) the folks who live or stay there. That's why I've commented before that something as simple as a Walgreens or 7-11 near the apartments is a more useful start than, say, an Ikea. But certainly good shopping is included in "amenities and entertainment".
Downtown retail is usually a natural progression, especially in the south.
The only post-war sunbelt city that has mastered downtown retail is Denver, which arguably has quite a dense core of warehouses and low-rises and the city benefits from great planning, starting with the City Beautiful Movement.
Look at Miami, which has one of the densest forests of condo/rental/hotel highrises in North America, and it has basically no retail and a decent collection of restaurants in its CBD. The retail is slowly coming, but all of the urban retail in South FL is either in Coral Gables (which is semi-urban at best), or South Beach (which is the world elite's playground).
I can speak for Atlanta, which has the 2nd highest concentration of high-rise living in the south and arguably the densest/most walkable urban neighborhood (much of Brickell consists of gated highrises and it is not as walkable). The area has a really hard time fostering retail, and it is not because of "lack of demand" or because Atlantic Station has 600,000 SF of "walkable" retail 0.5 miles away (with 4,000 free parking spaces beneath).
It is ALL to do with parking. It's a mentality thing, especially in the south. Over the past 50 years people have grown accustomed to free and abundant parking, and so those who have lived in the Sunbelt/south have developed a bad habit of only going places that have free and easy parking. People who move down from denser areas are still used to having no parking and may generally be more accepting of not being able to park for free or at all, but give them a year and they grow accustomed to the way of the car.
What has happened is that in Atlanta, people will happily take the train in for sporting events, concerts, to go to Piedmont Park, and festivals. They know that tens of thousands of people will re-board late at night and they know they'll be safe. This has been occuring for 10-15 years.
In the last 5-8 years people have been coming to Midtown via cab, rarely by train, to eat and go out to drink. There are so many cabs now that even during the day on the main roads you should not have to wait more than 30-60 seconds to be able to hail one. Midtown has a HUGE restaurant scene and nearly all street level retail is now restaurants or bars, and this month alone 5 are opening or commencing buildout along Peachtree between 8th and 12th.
In the last 1-3 years people have begun sticking around a little longer and some retailers have been successful (most have not). The sidewalks along Peachtree have only gotten somewhat crowded consistently in the last couple of years, and most are still suburbanites just enjoying a stroll, a meal and a drink (or they are going to an event or a museum).
The parking issue/3rd party contract with an enforcement agency has now come under fire, and the city is even considering paying the $8M to terminate contract. This is only arising because of the recent growth in pedestrians and business owners believe that their business is not seeing a corresponding uptick because pedestrians "are already paying to park" and subsequently don't want to pay to then shop in Midtown.
Now 2 high-rise rental buildings are UC, a 12 floor hotel is wrapping up, a new 24 floor high-rise has been announced and land is becoming more and more scarce. Still, due to lack of transit and the mentality of the car, all new highrises are being built with large garages (now to the side instead of as a podium to cut down on cost). Conversations are developing about how to eventually change the code to require a lower parking ratio. More people are living and STAYING in Midtown (including myself...I vowed this year to avoid using my car on weekends).
Bottom line: this has been a multi-decadal transition that still has a LONG LONG LONG way to go. Jacksonville can partly force it with better land planning and zoning, but ultimately it's going to mostly be a natural progression that results from unbearable traffic, rising land costs, lack of availability of land, and city investment in the core (thereby making it attractive for people to visit and play in, and potentially live in).
Sorry for the long post, but it's just a solid example of reality. Oh - further proof:
The firm I work for has two retail developments in intown Atlanta and one in downtown Nashville and one in downtown Chattanooga.
The most successful of these by far is a warehouse rehab with free parking in a garage and a backlot.
The second most successful is in Chattanooga, which has a garage and some retailers validate (and parking is cheap).
The third most successful is on Peachtree St in Midtown, and is below 500 condos. It has a very successful restaurant, hair salon, Jimmy Johns, UPS Store, and a not so successful high end boutique (selling Jack Spade and Gant and Billy Reid and their own private label...the thousands of nearby gays are still not enough to support). As I said before, restaurants are big in Midtown and we are negotiating 2 leases with restaurants for the final 2 suites. Parking is "not cheap" and definitely not abundant. Due to the price we paid, we can really only justify $35+ rents, which for a risky retail environment like Midtown only restaurants are willing to pay.
The least successful is in SoBro Nashville, 1 block from Broad St, caddy corner from the best office tower in TN, across from the new Omni/MCCC. Lots of stuff just NOW happening, but over the past 3 years we have signed one lease, and that retail is below 335 condos (all but one sold out). It's rents are CHEAP and the tenant improvement allowances expensive. We are trying to dispose of the retail as soon as we can. There is NO parking available for retail shoppers. And downtown Nashville parking can be expensive depending.
Lesson? It's all about parking.
Quote from: fieldafm on May 07, 2012, 04:25:06 PM
Quite the contrary... you're in denial if you drink a developers kool-aid calling an auto-centric mall that lacks basic amenities such as proper sidewalks as being a 'walkable urban environment'.
Here are two 'lifestyle centers' in comparable suburban locations:
Reston Town Center (Virgina-an exurb of DC quite comparable to the Southside)
(http://www.aboutobjects.com/images/locations/RestonTownCenter.jpg)
Markets at Town Center (Jacksonville)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1390801634_zQZGn2M-L.jpg)
Notice any glaring differences?
As someone who grew up just outside of Reston Town Center I notice a glaring difference. You cherry picked your pictures. RTC has a Best Buy off to the side of it similar to SJTC, and if you posted that picture, they would look identical. I used to go to RTC to watch movies, and park in the big public parking garage for free. There weren't many big buildings there in the beginning, although there are now.
Please don't get me wrong, I'm not defending SJTC, I really dislike what that place has become, but I think your post is a bit misleading. RTC has gone vertical, but it wasn't always that way, and Northern Virginia is much more crowded than Jacksonville, that it made more sense to do it that way (plus there is a demand for housing there).
Spent some time in Charlotte a few months ago. It may be trivial but Whisky River has two locations, one in Charlotte and one in Jacksonville. Look at the two locations and figure out why one city is driving in neutral.
(http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2012/02/27/14/01/Lbx1h.Em.138.jpg)
(http://www.fijiwater.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/whisky-river-restaurant-jacksonville3.jpg)
NIce photo comparison. I did mispeak, Mike is correct regarding the intersection improvements at BCBS. The City put $500,000 towards it. Guess, I dont know everything afterall! :-)
QuoteBottom line: this has been a multi-decadal transition that still has a LONG LONG LONG way to go. Jacksonville can partly force it with better land planning and zoning, but ultimately it's going to mostly be a natural progression that results from unbearable traffic, rising land costs, lack of availability of land, and city investment in the core (thereby making it attractive for people to visit and play in, and potentially live in).
Could not agree more Simms. We do have a long road ahead of us, however, a LOT can be learned from cities like Atlanta and Miami, even Charlotte. These are the types of transitioning cities that our Chamber of Commerce and elected professionals should be visiting on "field trips". And lift the damn moritorium on the award winning Mobility Plan so that
WE can become the example to follow!!!!!!
Quote from: copperfiend on May 08, 2012, 08:21:22 AM
Spent some time in Charlotte a few months ago. It may be trivial but Whisky River has two locations, one in Charlotte and one in Jacksonville. Look at the two locations and figure out why one city is driving in neutral.
(http://media.charlotteobserver.com/smedia/2012/02/27/14/01/Lbx1h.Em.138.jpg)
(http://www.fijiwater.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/whisky-river-restaurant-jacksonville3.jpg)
The Blackfinn for Charlotte is also at Epicentre. I believe the one in JAX is at SJTC.
^^you are correct.
I think Whisky River, Suite, Blackfinn may all be operated by the same company.
Suite (for comparison)
(http://minthillnchomesforsale.com/image_store/uploads/6/9/9/8/8/ar13066328088996.JPG)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1390802984_KQ7TCPg-L.jpg)
Funny part is that Whiskey River and Suite draw the same people in Charlotte as they do in Jacksonville. Rural folks that drive into the "city" for the night. Love how country folks will pay $5 for a Bud Light!
That picture of Suite in Charlotte is how I could imagine Brooklyn developing.
Quote from: fsujax on May 08, 2012, 10:54:08 AM
That picture of Suite in Charlotte is how I could imagine Brooklyn developing.
That would be pretty cool but the plans I have seen for the residential development there are pretty terrible.
As a resident of Fleming Island, I go to SJTC all of the time, both for shopping and to go to Suite and Whisky River. Yes, that is where people from "rural" areas go because it is closest thing to nightlife Jax has. Bay Street is great, Landing is a waste unless there is something like FL-GA game bc Mavericks is not that big of a draw. After growing up in Jersey and living in NYC for a few years I would love to go downtown and live and work and party. Here is why I don't: whenever I go there I have to turn someone down asking for money, I have to find and pay for parking because the only mass transit is a bus system that doesn't even operate main lines 24 hours and has no idea what a light rail or commuter rail is; there are no shops that would interest me with the exception of the Riverside Arts Market which is actually a great place; and why would I work or live somewhere that at 7pm is mostly deserted? Is Town Center great? No, I have to drive around forever looking for parking ... the only place I can really walk is the main street, if I wanted to go to Target, Barnes and Noble and then have lunch at Chipotle, thats three different parking spots I have to search for. How do you change SJTC ... you don't, it is almost like it will take on a life of its own growing until it can consume no more ... but you can make downtown Jax more accessible. If you build it they will come; but if you build something to bring them there, and something for them to do there, they will stay.
I have alwyas been in support of giving the people asking for money downtown a one-way bus pass to the Town Center. When they ask me for money I tell them they are asking the wrong person and should be at the SJTC. Parking is never an issue, lunchtime, evening or the weekend, I always find a spot, did it today at lunch time. High noon I parked right on the corner of Laura St and Forsyth, walked to the Landing, purchased my mothers day gifts at the new local boutiques that have opened and ate lunch. By the way there are plans for commuter rail in case you didnt know.
Quote from: JayBird on May 08, 2012, 01:51:29 PM
I have to find and pay for parking because the only mass transit is a bus system that doesn't even operate main lines 24 hours and has no idea what a light rail or commuter rail is
so you don't go downtown for nightlife because you have to pay to park? Umm, street spots are free after 6pm and on weekends!
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 08, 2012, 03:00:40 PM
Quote from: JayBird on May 08, 2012, 01:51:29 PM
I have to find and pay for parking because the only mass transit is a bus system that doesn't even operate main lines 24 hours and has no idea what a light rail or commuter rail is
so you don't go downtown for nightlife because you have to pay to park? Umm, street spots are free after 6pm and on weekends!
Maybe he was talking about the price gouging at the Landing lot.
Umm ... perhaps I wasn't clear, I like Bay Street ... think its great ... but why park three blocks away with "free parking" where I have to walk past the poor guy sleeping on a building doorstep and two guys asking for money for the bus (which at 2am when bars and clubs are closing doesn't even run) when I can go to SJTC and park right in front of the bar, in a lighted lot with police patrolling constantly (they even have little golf carts now, which I think is funny but safer none the less). Parking is not easy if you want to shop in SJTC during day ... and DT would definetely attract the crowds because it is centralized and no matter where you go in the country "downtown" always draws people ... just out of curiosity I guess if nothing else, but there is nothing DT that would make me go there. Everything there is for people who work right there or live right there. Which is nice for them, but no reason for me to go. And yes, I know and love the commuter rail project they've talked about ... but its just talk. It would be great if they could do it, but as of now ... it doesn't help anyone. And being that it is at least 3 to 5 years down the road, that train has left the station.
booooo to that pun.
Quote from: fsquid on May 09, 2012, 12:00:26 PM
booooo to that pun.
I cringed when writing it ... but seriously, it seems to me that the time for commuter rail is now because that will allow DT to grow and other areas around commuter rail stations to grow as well. People don't go to SJTC because they want to ... they go because they have to. If I could catch a train to go downtown do all my shopping and spend the day there, you bet I would be there and would have no problem taking family there. Instead of now, when I go to Jags or Suns game, a show at Times Union or Veterans and then jump on the highway to go somewhere else for dinner or after party. Its a shame to have a riverfront Downtown that most people only know by driving through it to get to their destination and then leave. I am guilty of this too ... but it is all about convenience.
^ You lived in NYC and Jersey and the homeless people in downtown Jax freak you out? :D
I'm from NYC and the homeless population downtown don't bother me one bit. I have no problem just ignoring them as I pass by or if they even ask for something.
Quote from: JayBird on May 09, 2012, 12:08:37 PM
I cringed when writing it ... but seriously, it seems to me that the time for commuter rail is now because that will allow DT to grow and other areas around commuter rail stations to grow as well.
I agree...commuter rail should be the top regional transportation priority....but don't get disillusioned.....even if its implemented, it surely won't be running at 2am to take drunk people home from downtown.
Anyone have any info on the development behind Mitchell's Fish market.? The way they are building that site seems so strange to me. They have one area of a huge raised platform, what looks like the base of a parking structure, and then what looks like the plumbing hook ups for a bunch of units. 5000 town is coming along nicely. It's nice to see some good ole' concrete construction for residential, and it's not even tilt up!!! Haven't seen that in a while around here. Too many stick built suburban complexes for me to take lately.
An article about some of the developments in the area, but not the one I was looking for: http://www.morgangroup.com/sites/default/files/construction-st-Johns-Town-Center.pdf
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 25, 2012, 09:45:52 AM
Anyone have any info on the development behind Mitchell's Fish market.? The way they are building that site seems so strange to me. They have one area of a huge raised platform, what looks like the base of a parking structure, and then what looks like the plumbing hook ups for a bunch of units. 5000 town is coming along nicely. It's nice to see some good ole' concrete construction for residential, and it's not even tilt up!!! Haven't seen that in a while around here. Too many stick built suburban complexes for me to take lately.
There are three multi-family starts going up on the Town Center land. That's one of them.
There is also a restaurant that is being constructed on the Markets property (still no sidewalk to connect to)
And a rezoning application for traffic circulation was just approved for the PUD on the Costco site. (was basically the best of three bad options, the street grid originally planned should have never have been discarded and a million curb cuts been allowed to be constructed with virtually no pedestrian connectivity)
Quote from: fieldafm on July 25, 2012, 09:55:32 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 25, 2012, 09:45:52 AM
Anyone have any info on the development behind Mitchell's Fish market.? The way they are building that site seems so strange to me. They have one area of a huge raised platform, what looks like the base of a parking structure, and then what looks like the plumbing hook ups for a bunch of units. 5000 town is coming along nicely. It's nice to see some good ole' concrete construction for residential, and it's not even tilt up!!! Haven't seen that in a while around here. Too many stick built suburban complexes for me to take lately.
There are three multi-family starts going up on the Town Center land. That's one of them.
There is also a restaurant that is being constructed on the Markets property (still no sidewalk to connect to)
And a rezoning application for traffic circulation was just approved for the PUD on the Costco site. (was basically the best of three bad options, the street grid originally planned should have never have been discarded and a million curb cuts been allowed to be constructed with virtually no pedestrian connectivity)
Do you have the plans for the traffic circulation at Costco. I'd like to see them. I still think that entrance to Costco needs to be closed.
So..... 5000 Town, which there is plenty of coverage about, the mystery property that is under construction that there is no real info about, and a third property?
Brio is the restaurant you are referencing here.
Thank goodness for the traffic circulation. They seem to try a new traffic pattern every quarter, so maybe in 2 years we will have something good.
Also, they are building out a big box tenant in the Markets area with no signage or anything. It will open up onto that avenue between Whiskey River and Suite. This isn't typical of SJTC to not have signs and advertisements months out. Any knowledge on the tenant?
no traffic circulation plan is going to correct the mess around Costco.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 25, 2012, 10:02:06 AM
Also, they are building out a big box tenant in the Markets area with no signage or anything. It will open up onto that avenue between Whiskey River and Suite. This isn't typical of SJTC to not have signs and advertisements months out. Any knowledge on the tenant?
I believe that might be REI's spot.
QuoteDo you have the plans for the traffic circulation at Costco. I'd like to see them. I still think that entrance to Costco needs to be closed.
Not on my computer. The Planning Dept though has them, they had a public hearing on the matter. I agree with you, like I said it was the best of three horrible options. This is where planning matters. Allowing Town Center to become what it is now, with virtually every prudent planning component stepped over, is really ashame. It could have been such a better product.
QuoteAlso, they are building out a big box tenant in the Markets area with no signage or anything.
That's a sporting goods store.
Quote from: tufsu1 on May 09, 2012, 02:03:20 PM
Quote from: JayBird on May 09, 2012, 12:08:37 PM
I cringed when writing it ... but seriously, it seems to me that the time for commuter rail is now because that will allow DT to grow and other areas around commuter rail stations to grow as well.
I agree...commuter rail should be the top regional transportation priority....but don't get disillusioned.....even if its implemented, it surely won't be running at 2am to take drunk people home from downtown.
That defeats the whole purpose of public transportation. I get so SCARED that I might miss the last bus of the day, that I wouldn't be able to get home due to different situation, not getting shitfaced somewhere in downtown, but honest and legitimate reasons. Having a public transportation that runs 24 hours even in the wee hours, it would be a longer interval, brings peace and calm to my worries.
-Josh
I agree ... after all, how much more can it cost to run one bus to Orange Park 24 hrs? It would have a two hour wait between buses because of only one running the route, but I am sure they would have ridership ... heck WalMart has people in it at 3am so obviously people need to go somewhere in middle of night. And I think they would only need four ... WS2 to OP, A continuous line to the beaches, the S1 OR L7 to Avenues and the L8 to Lem Turner and I-295 for the Northside. And does anyone know why, when you have entertainment on the northbank with residential apartments and condos on the southbank, with more to come ... why an unmanned SkyRail closes at sundown or shortly after ... if it is open at all?
Also, on another topic ... in Jersey when a contractor buys land and says I am building a shopping mall here. The town says "no problem, you may build your mall as long as you build this fire station in the corner of the property or build a roadway or improve this intersection". So how come, when these grand plans come into the city of Jacksonville for a place called St Johns Town Center ... why didn't someone say okay, build us a light rail to southside blvd and gate parkway establishments for people who work and live there. Or something to alleviate the need for car traffic and parking. After all, if you buildings with businesses make more money than parking spaces right? I know there is a name for those types of deals, but not that knowledgeable.
Quote from: JayBird on July 26, 2012, 04:30:15 PM
I agree ... after all, how much more can it cost to run one bus to Orange Park 24 hrs? It would have a two hour wait between buses because of only one running the route, but I am sure they would have ridership ... heck WalMart has people in it at 3am so obviously people need to go somewhere in middle of night. And I think they would only need four ... WS2 to OP, A continuous line to the beaches, the S1 OR L7 to Avenues and the L8 to Lem Turner and I-295 for the Northside. And does anyone know why, when you have entertainment on the northbank with residential apartments and condos on the southbank, with more to come ... why an unmanned SkyRail closes at sundown or shortly after ... if it is open at all?
Also, on another topic ... in Jersey when a contractor buys land and says I am building a shopping mall here. The town says "no problem, you may build your mall as long as you build this fire station in the corner of the property or build a roadway or improve this intersection". So how come, when these grand plans come into the city of Jacksonville for a place called St Johns Town Center ... why didn't someone say okay, build us a light rail to southside blvd and gate parkway establishments for people who work and live there. Or something to alleviate the need for car traffic and parking. After all, if you buildings with businesses make more money than parking spaces right? I know there is a name for those types of deals, but not that knowledgeable.
You cannot make a developer build a public light rail system to allow them to build on their property. You can make them pay to run water/sewer lines to the project if none exist as well as any necessary road improvements(traffic lights/road widening) at the project to accommodate the additional traffic load. Those are part of the impact fees that a developer pays to the city. You could even require them to pay for a station for an existing light rail system if there was light rail already there (if there was light rail already there, they would probably want to build one to drive more traffic into the businesses at the center), but you cannot make them build a light rail system for public use and on top of that they most likely don't own any portion of the necessary right of way required to build that system.
Aaah thank you Carpntr, that makes sense. And yes, the projects I am aware of did build everything on their own property so that is logical.
Quote from: carpnter on July 26, 2012, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: JayBird on July 26, 2012, 04:30:15 PM
I agree ... after all, how much more can it cost to run one bus to Orange Park 24 hrs? It would have a two hour wait between buses because of only one running the route, but I am sure they would have ridership ... heck WalMart has people in it at 3am so obviously people need to go somewhere in middle of night. And I think they would only need four ... WS2 to OP, A continuous line to the beaches, the S1 OR L7 to Avenues and the L8 to Lem Turner and I-295 for the Northside. And does anyone know why, when you have entertainment on the northbank with residential apartments and condos on the southbank, with more to come ... why an unmanned SkyRail closes at sundown or shortly after ... if it is open at all?
Also, on another topic ... in Jersey when a contractor buys land and says I am building a shopping mall here. The town says "no problem, you may build your mall as long as you build this fire station in the corner of the property or build a roadway or improve this intersection". So how come, when these grand plans come into the city of Jacksonville for a place called St Johns Town Center ... why didn't someone say okay, build us a light rail to southside blvd and gate parkway establishments for people who work and live there. Or something to alleviate the need for car traffic and parking. After all, if you buildings with businesses make more money than parking spaces right? I know there is a name for those types of deals, but not that knowledgeable.
You cannot make a developer build a public light rail system to allow them to build on their property. You can make them pay to run water/sewer lines to the project if none exist as well as any necessary road improvements(traffic lights/road widening) at the project to accommodate the additional traffic load. Those are part of the impact fees that a developer pays to the city. You could even require them to pay for a station for an existing light rail system if there was light rail already there (if there was light rail already there, they would probably want to build one to drive more traffic into the businesses at the center), but you cannot make them build a light rail system for public use and on top of that they most likely don't own any portion of the necessary right of way required to build that system.
You can make them pay mobility fees which would provide a funding mechanism to help pay for transit. We have a mobility plan in Jax, or we did, until our City Council decided it would be a good idea to put a moratorium on it.
Quote from: cline on July 26, 2012, 05:00:39 PM
Quote from: carpnter on July 26, 2012, 04:43:54 PM
Quote from: JayBird on July 26, 2012, 04:30:15 PM
I agree ... after all, how much more can it cost to run one bus to Orange Park 24 hrs? It would have a two hour wait between buses because of only one running the route, but I am sure they would have ridership ... heck WalMart has people in it at 3am so obviously people need to go somewhere in middle of night. And I think they would only need four ... WS2 to OP, A continuous line to the beaches, the S1 OR L7 to Avenues and the L8 to Lem Turner and I-295 for the Northside. And does anyone know why, when you have entertainment on the northbank with residential apartments and condos on the southbank, with more to come ... why an unmanned SkyRail closes at sundown or shortly after ... if it is open at all?
Also, on another topic ... in Jersey when a contractor buys land and says I am building a shopping mall here. The town says "no problem, you may build your mall as long as you build this fire station in the corner of the property or build a roadway or improve this intersection". So how come, when these grand plans come into the city of Jacksonville for a place called St Johns Town Center ... why didn't someone say okay, build us a light rail to southside blvd and gate parkway establishments for people who work and live there. Or something to alleviate the need for car traffic and parking. After all, if you buildings with businesses make more money than parking spaces right? I know there is a name for those types of deals, but not that knowledgeable.
You cannot make a developer build a public light rail system to allow them to build on their property. You can make them pay to run water/sewer lines to the project if none exist as well as any necessary road improvements(traffic lights/road widening) at the project to accommodate the additional traffic load. Those are part of the impact fees that a developer pays to the city. You could even require them to pay for a station for an existing light rail system if there was light rail already there (if there was light rail already there, they would probably want to build one to drive more traffic into the businesses at the center), but you cannot make them build a light rail system for public use and on top of that they most likely don't own any portion of the necessary right of way required to build that system.
You can make them pay mobility fees which would provide a funding mechanism to help pay for transit. We have a mobility plan in Jax, or we did, until our City Council decided it would be a good idea to put a moratorium on it.
True, I just considered those fees as part of the impact fees that a developer might pay to construct their project.
Finally I found some solid info on the second multi-family development being built on town center property. http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/money_makers/2012/03/tribridge-residential-to-build-20m.html
They are putting in a 2 story parking structure, at a cost of $2 million. I wonder if the city required this, they did it to maximize their space, or just as a good business practice. Regardless of the reason, i am glad they did it and it will be a good example to follow for future developments.
The units look to be pretty compact, but well adorned. I am surprised that the developer has not done more to market the property. The website looks great: http://liveattheuptown.com/
Very nice indeed. As for the mobility fee, I believe Oct of last year the moratorium was voted on (it seems in secret). Should we be hearing something soon, or not. Maybe now would be a good time to hound our council.
Hmm that'll be right around the time my lease is up downtown next year. It'll be a choice between there and the new apartments being built in Brooklyn for me.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on July 30, 2012, 06:01:48 PM
Very nice indeed. As for the mobility fee, I believe Oct of last year the moratorium was voted on (it seems in secret). Should we be hearing something soon, or not. Maybe now would be a good time to hound our council.
Now is a great time. If we don't, those who want to see the moratorium extended, will have the council's ears all to themselves.
I don't know if anyone read this article today, but mention of the Mobility Fee at the end. I don't know if it clears much up.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=537132
07/31/2012
by Karen Brune Mathis, Managing Editor
Calling it “the last significant parcel in this part of town,†City Council member Richard Clark met with the developer and community residents Monday to hammer out suggested improvements to plans for the proposed 781-acre “Tamaya†residential and commercial development along Beach Boulevard.
The site is north of Beach Boulevard between Kernan and Hodges boulevards.
Beach Boulevard Venture LLC has asked the City to rezone the property, in Clark’s Council District 3, to permit 3,500 residential units, up from the 2,400 units earlier approved.
Agent T.R. Hainline, a shareholder and land-use attorney with the Rogers Towers firm, explained at the community meeting that the project, formerly called Meditierra, had been approved in 2005, before the recession, and that the developer had already contributed funds to develop a fire station, toward Patton Park and to move JEA electric lines.
A site plan shows nine residential areas, a 10-acre amenity center and, at Beach and Kernan boulevards, a commercial town center.
Residents, as well as former district Council representative Jerry Holland, now Supervisor of Elections, asked Hainline, engineer Hugh Mathews, president of ETM Inc., and executives with ICI Homes, to agree to several changes before Tamaya returns to City Council reviews for approval.
Clark suggests capping the number of units at 3,100 and Holland wants developers to define the maximum number of units for single-family and multifamily development.
“Define better what you want to do,†he said. “I get no comfort level when it says ‘condos’ and ‘townhomes,’†he said.
ICI Homes executives David Haas, chief operating officer of Intervest Construction of Jax Inc., and Don Wilford, North Florida Division president, did not indicate any immediate development plans for the project, saying the housing market needed to be strong enough to warrant construction.
Intervest is a managing member of Beach Boulevard Venture. State records also list Beazer Homes Inc. a managing member.
About 14 people attended the 1 ½-hour meeting at the Pablo Creek Library, which sits in the center of the proposed project. They discussed issues that included traffic signals and access, the main Meritage Boulevard that would start at Kernan and end at City property to the east and the main Tamaya Boulevard that would start at Beach Boulevard and connect with Meritage Boulevard.
At the end of the meeting, Hainline summarized what he called a resulting “laundry list†of suggestions.
Those included internal parking and driveway access to Patton Park, which is adjacent to the east side of the property, right of way retention, a stated maximum cap to the types of residential units and other items.
Among other ideas, Holland suggested that the developer provide a driveway to City property at Patton Park so that the park’s gate can be opened when needed to Tamaya residents.
“That’s an idea that has some real merit,†Haas said.
One issue discussed at more length was extending Meritage Boulevard to Hodges Boulevard rather than ending just before Patton Park.
Developers considered offsetting their former City “fair share†assessment by building the road, but costs exceeded the assessment. Fair share assessments have been replaced by “mobility fees,†but those fees have been waived by Council for now.
Haas said the fair share assessment would have been at least $14 million while the mobility fee is estimated at $4.7 million. Although Council voted in October to waive mobility fees for a year, Hainline said developers would be paying the fee when permits were pulled, indicating construction would not start until the waiver ends.
Haas said the first phase would be 184 lots.
kmathis@baileypub.com
except folks like Hainline are lobbying to extend the moratorium for another year
Quote from: fieldafm on July 25, 2012, 09:55:32 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on July 25, 2012, 09:45:52 AM
Anyone have any info on the development behind Mitchell's Fish market.? The way they are building that site seems so strange to me. They have one area of a huge raised platform, what looks like the base of a parking structure, and then what looks like the plumbing hook ups for a bunch of units. 5000 town is coming along nicely. It's nice to see some good ole' concrete construction for residential, and it's not even tilt up!!! Haven't seen that in a while around here. Too many stick built suburban complexes for me to take lately.
There are three multi-family starts going up on the Town Center land. That's one of them.
There is also a restaurant that is being constructed on the Markets property (still no sidewalk to connect to)
And a rezoning application for traffic circulation was just approved for the PUD on the Costco site. (was basically the best of three bad options, the street grid originally planned should have never have been discarded and a million curb cuts been allowed to be constructed with virtually no pedestrian connectivity)
I've mentioned on here and privately about an existing entitlement that was about to get sold for more residential. Well here it is:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/08/08/orlando-area-developer-plans.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2012/08/08/orlando-area-developer-plans.html)
If there was a form based code that encouraged building like Tapestry Park, I think this area would really benefit in the long term (just look at the commercial land close to two condos at Southside/Touchton, and think of what that could look like- a walkable, compact development. You can't even walk from your condo to Publix the way the entire site is laid out now).
Must be because of that moratorium ;) (they couldnt get a building permit pulled quick enough if the moratorium expires in October, nor can another 4 of those projects proposed... further proof that the boom in multi family starts on the Southside had nothing to do with the mobility fee moratorium and everything to do with demand and favorable credit for these types of projects).
Brooklyn/DT - 1, Southside/SJTC - 7
Three more stores are coming to the SJTC; Bose, Steve Madden Shoes(where Betsey Johnson was at) and Carter's Childrens Wear. My bad if someone already posted it, yall are so damn quick. LOL
www.jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/472000/roger-bull/2012-09-07/three-stores-slated-open-st-johns-town-center