Piedmont Park: A Destination, Not A Pass Through
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1763677936_NR4LPmK-M.jpg)
In this periodical series, Metro Jacksonville highlights sites in peer cities across the country that have become destinations and not pass throughs. We ask if Jacksonville is ready for the challenge and willing to invest in itself to compete for economic development in the 21st century. Today, we visit Atlanta's Piedmont Park.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-apr-piedmont-park-a-destination-not-a-pass-through
Downtown Jacksonville could support a park that big, I think. Call it "Cowford Park". There you go, a little bit of history.
Klutho.
Note reference to planned neighborhood serving transit system (likely streetcars- Ock,'ya gotta love it!!!),non motorized paths,redevelopment of approx. 2500 acres. Magnificent.
A lesson for Jacksonville;
Hogans Creek/Springfield Park
In recent personal conversation with City of jacksonville Engineering Division manager David D. Hahn,P.E ( cell 904 591 6875) Mr.Hahn noted comprehensive Hogans Creek restoration estimated cost at approx. 40 million.
Consider too our unique position to capture recreational boating destination drawing on the nationwide boating community.Downtown vessel slips,dockage could be enhanced, taylored to transient destination boaters rather than storage.There exists plenty of month to month vessel in water slip storage nearby.
QuoteWe ask if Jacksonville is ready for the challenge and willing to invest . . .
The key word is "invest." I wish it were otherwise, but I fear the answer is "no." But consider:
The City and/or JTA and/or JEA own a helluva lot of land that could be turned into a decent sized park:
1. Almost all waterfront land from Metropolitan Park west to the site of the present courthouse and old City Hall. (Question: What is going to be done with the parking lots in front that are built on pilings over the river?)
2. The closed Southside Generating Plant site on southbank.
3. The Convention Center and most of the land to the north abutting I-95 for several blocks. There are a few privately owned parcels in that area, but the City could condemn them and possibly just arrange for a land swap to keep the operating businesses downtown - thinking mostly of the Interline Brands block. Turn the convention center into something else (Museum of Railroading?). The parking lot west of the main building could be kept if needed. The park would have great exposure from the interstate, and is a terminus for the ASE - making for more and easier access (if anyone chose to use it).
Getting back to that word "invest." I repeat: Show me the money!
The photograph of Hogan's Creek says it all. It is bucolic and inviting. I can see pathways and shade trees along the watercourse. Add some activities and the momentum will build. Start small.
With all the activists you have on this site, there must be someone with the time and energy to spearhead the creation of a Hogan's Creek Conservancy?
QuoteThe photograph of Hogan's Creek says it all. It is bucolic and inviting. I can see pathways and shade trees along the watercourse. Add some activities and the momentum will build. Start small.
With all the activists you have on this site, there must be someone with the time and energy to spearhead the creation of a Hogan's Creek Conservancy?
There has been.
Cutting back the red tape from the MULTIPLE layers of government piddling around and lollygagging on Hogans Creek is another story.
Did you know there is a little under $1 million sitting in a capital account for YEARS that will fund a Hogans Creek Greenway... but that three other government organizations point their fingers at each other, each playing chicken to see who starts their portion of the work first?
That's just one of about 12 different projects from various agencies all targeting various areas of the Hogans Creek Basin. However no one knows what the other is doing. Imagine having 12 legs with one brain for each leg and none of your brains are connected through a central nervous system. Imagine how difficult it would be to walk? That in a nutshell, is Hogans Creek's story.
Welcome to beauracracy. It's mind blowing how difficult it is to navigate the maze that is Hogans Creek. I have personally spent many late nights tracking all of the money and I still don't have an idea how it all works together.
In the meantime, a huge opportunity is being wasted.
great article Ennis....I visited Piedmont Park a few months ago and was stunned by all of the things that had been added over the past few years....their new aquatic center is absolutely gorgeous and the adjacent playground is very heavily used....also interesting is the modern art-inspired playground up the hill from there (not shown in the pictures).
To add: The Beltline deserves a series of articles on it's own. It's really a supremely ambitious and worthy project.
I think Detroit's Dequindre Cut or Houston's Buffalo Bayou are examples that are more relevant to Jax. Frankly, Jax could have a much better version than both of those with the naturally occuring amenities a complete Hogans Creek Greenway could offer tied into the S Line and Riverwalk. But the Atlanta Beltline should certainly serve as an inspirational example of what happens when you have the courage to dream big and have the drive to make it happen.
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 06, 2012, 09:59:16 AM
great article Ennis....I visited Piedmont Park a few months ago and was stunned by all of the things that had been added over the past few years....their new aquatic center is absolutely gorgeous and the adjacent playground is very heavily used....also interesting is the modern art-inspired playground up the hill from there (not shown in the pictures).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Piedmont-Park-Atlanta/i-RSKRh4M/0/M/P1540017-M.jpg)
Buffalo Bayou
(http://cdn.theatlanticcities.com/img/upload/2012/02/02/mapREAL.jpg)
Dequindre Cut
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Atlanta Beltline
(http://www.treesatlanta.org/images/beltlineconceptplanwithtext.jpg)
Hogans Creek:
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-vvf9zKT/0/O/image008.png)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-mGdpbwN/0/L/image009-L.png)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Other/mi/i-FHJ4LS5/0/M/image007-M.png)
Getting back to the original thread, Piedmont Park, I went to school at Tech and lived there for 5 years after graduation, through the Olympics. During that time, the "Conservation for Piedmont Park" decided it was better to move the largest event in the park, the annual Dogwood Festival, from the park to the concrete confines of Centennial Park. They did the same thing with the Arts Festival in the fall. Why did they move them? The complaint was that there was too much foot traffic and the number of festivals was killing the vegetation in the park.
It is a great park, a number of baseball fields, tennis courts, the new North side with Dog Parks, the Bot (Atlanta Botanical Garden off Piedmont), the restaurant at 10th and Monroe, with a great outdoor fire pit for the colder months, it is a great park, but for the article to insist that the park, itself, contributed to the growth of Midtown is an absurd exaggeration. What is now Midtown, in the 80s and most of the 90s was what our Springfield is now. Outside investors, much like in Buckhead, which has no real large park, the investors came in and leveled the smaller structures and built large apartment buildings throughout Midtown. There were also commercial developments and restaurants there, along the park, well before the latest explosion. The park continues to be a place for intown residents to enjoy.
QuoteFrustrated with the lack of transportation alternatives in Atlanta,
I don't know the rock that these Tech grads (probably UGA grads instead) lived under, but Atlanta has more transportation nodes and modules than any other city, I have seen in the south. Traffic downtown connector, no problem, get off and take one of the many side street options in the grid like system of Atlanta Traffic. That is harder to do in Jax, but thankfully, we don't have Atlanta traffic. Also, Atlanta, due to its size has an armada of cabs and pay for transportation, Super Bowls, NBA finals, Final Fours, Olympics, they are all possible due to a fantastic transit system.
Taking the old rail through Piedmont Park and turning it into light rail, is really unrealistic. At one end, the line runs into Decatur Street (perpendicular to the Atlanta-Hulsey yard), and the other ends up in the Norfolk Southern Y, on the other side of I85. Both Monroe Drive/Boulevard , and Moreland Avenue (US23) run North South over similar distances, with Monroe/Boulevard running the closest in parallel to the line. There are so many North South roads, it would be better for the City to turn the old tracks into what Indianapolis did with the downtown Monon lines in Broad Ripple, a pedestrian trail, similar to our Baldwin Rails to Trails program. Then there is also Marta rail line which is only a few blocks from the park.
Our Met Park is too far from real residential traffic, but could one day mimic parts of Piedmont Park. Look around where you live and see the parks people use. I/we use Boone Park and the other small parks in Avondale/Riverside. Its not Piedmont park, but I am thankful for what we have. We don't have the same downtown density to warrant this type of expense. We still don't have the promised parking for the Landing, for pete's sake and that thing has been going on since 1986!
If I didn't loathe the idea of taking another bar exam, I'd seriously consider the Atlanta area. The community investment shown in places like Piedmont Park is a big part of the "why."
Now, we could be doing that here. I loathe agreeing with mtrain almost as much as the thought of another bar exam, but he's right on the money here. We have so many urban parks. Why it will take years to turn a little corner of one of them into a dog park (I'm looking at you, Riverside Park/RAP), I have no idea. It seems like with enough motivated urban residents, and a sense of community investment, these amenities could be added and maintained faster. From the biggest to the best? Let's have a little less talk and a lot more action.
QuoteI loathe agreeing with mtrain
Ya know, Timken said the same thing recently. Like Will Rogers said, "Always drink upstream from the herd".
Happy Easter!
Another smart guy said something about "all hat and no cattle." Hope you've picked out a nice bonnet! ;) (Totally kidding!)
Happy Easter!
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 06, 2012, 11:02:13 AM
It is a great park, a number of baseball fields, tennis courts, the new North side with Dog Parks, the Bot (Atlanta Botanical Garden off Piedmont), the restaurant at 10th and Monroe, with a great outdoor fire pit for the colder months, it is a great park, but for the article to insist that the park, itself, contributed to the growth of Midtown is an absurd exaggeration. What is now Midtown, in the 80s and most of the 90s was what our Springfield is now. Outside investors, much like in Buckhead, which has no real large park, the investors came in and leveled the smaller structures and built large apartment buildings throughout Midtown. There were also commercial developments and restaurants there, along the park, well before the latest explosion. The park continues to be a place for intown residents to enjoy.
You don't think the park has been an economic benefit to the area immediately surrounding it? Nevertheless, the article doesn't state that the park is the sole reason for growth in Midtown Atlanta. It only states that area has economically benefitted from it and includes a few images of development on the park's perimeter.
Ah how I miss Atlanta. I am amazed at the amount of development that has occurred there since I left
QuoteYou don't think the park has been an economic benefit to the area immediately surrounding it?
No I do not, case in point, move up Peachtree Street to Buckhead and see if any one park contributed to the re-birth of Buckhead. I think that the park succeeds from the old established neighborhoods of Virginia-Highlands, Ansley Park, and the residences around Midtown that are still there from the 10s, 20s, and younger. The park was made by the people who used it who lived in those areas, long before the new re-birth with glass and steel skyscrapers.
Answer this if you think I am wrong, Is Centennial Park the main factor in the rebirth of that area, or could it instead be said that the establishment of the Georgia Aquarium, longtime factor of CNN and recent mover in World of Coke, were the reasons for the rebirth down in this area, not far from the "gulch"?
My belief is that the park is not the factor in the area, rather it is the items around the park that make the park, that much more special. If you are saying that, and I am misinterpreting it, I am sorry.
I do believe that Centennial Park has been a factor in some of the recent development that has taken place around it. I also consider World of Coke and the Georgia Aquarium to be built-in amenities and attractions of the overall park itself. Whether the actual park without the added amenities is the main factor is irrelevant, imo. Typically, within an urban environment, there are several factors at play that combine to contribute to continued economic development. By the same token, I believe that Piedmont Park has been an economic plus to the land uses immediately surrounding it, as well. Case in point, I rented a bike from a shop across the street from the park. Another group in front of me, rented rollerblades from this business. It was clear that rental of recreational equipment by park users was a major part of this particular retailer's operation. Without the park being there, I believe that a bike shop at that location would have been less viable.
Atlanta is not a waterfront or coastal city. Activity is going to predominantly occur around parks. Midtown has Piedmont Park. Downtown has Woodruff and Centennial Olympic parks. There is a Central Park between the two where I play on a kickball league (we couldn't get a Piedmont Park league because they are full years in advance it seems). There is Grant Park, which is FABULOUS and has the Civil War memorial (beautiful marble memorial) and the Atlanta zoo (a classic "park zoo" like Lincoln Zoo). There is Chastain Park in Buckhead, which is such an asset to that area and features a beautifully maintained public golf course, horse stables and championship jumping courses, and a park green that has the biggest names in concerts.
There is actually an Inman Park. It is not just the name of the neighborhood, but the neighborhood grew around it. There is actually an Ansley Park which gave the surrounding neighborhood its name, which is in my opinion the best place to take your dog in Midtown and the park is a GEM, deep trenches and beautiful landscaping below multimillion dollar historic AND phenominal contemporary homes. There are so many parks. There is Candler Park, where 420 Fest is held each year (the Sweetwater 420 beer, not marijuana).
The Beltline has already added more genuinely good park space in Stanton Park and Old Fourth Ward Park than I can think of in Jax. And it will also be a 22 mile trail when complete (and light rail).
The Dogwood Festival is next weekend and really marks the start of the best time and most active time to be in Atlanta. The festival is one of the largest in the country, is a multi-generational tradition (76 years I believe?), and brings hundreds of thousands to Midtown. 420 Fest is the same weekend in Druid Hills. Every weekend from that point on culminating with Pride and Dragon Con around Labor Day is a crowd generator throughout the intown neighborhoods. It really is amazing the difference the city undergoes between March and April.
In the last couple years really big musical acts have played to HUGE crowds in Piedmont Park, including Paul McCartney and Dave Matthews. The concerts are fundraisers for the park itself. I envision that if the Shipyards could be turned into a phenominal public park, and somehow we can get development across the street, you could have these same big name musical acts coming to Jacksonville and playing against the backdrop of the river.
As people have brought up, another important aspect is what's around the park. Midtown around the park has a density of between 8,000 and 14,000 ppsm. Densities immediately surrounding the other parks are between 5,000 and 12,000 ppsm. Parking is nonexistent for big festivals and people take the trains in to go to the parks, so a lot of walking around is involved.
Another aspect is that with each park, but especially Piedmont Park, there are constant activity series going on. This time of year that dog park that looked "normal" crowded in the pictures is CROWDED, and there is a beer stand and sometimes music (Dog Days in the Park). In the spring there is Spring on the Green, where movies are shown on the Great Lawn. This has drawn an inner city crowd that comes in on the trains, and there was a shooting last year, so this year may be canceled or at least advertised kind of only in Midtown. Simultaneously there is Flicks on Fifth held on the Fifth St bridge over the interstate on Tech's campus, where more Midtown residents go because the most dangerous person going there is probably going to be a nerdy Tech student. The bridge is also a park and a Fall tailgate zone.
Jacksonville just needs one waterfront park downtown and it needs to expand and clean up Hogans/McCoys Creek and the surrounding parks to their former glory. It has a beach, less density, and far fewer people to need to provide expensive greenspace to than Atlanta. Hopefully Jax can just nail those 2 parks down and it will retain the beach as a great point of public waterfront and "park" access.
Not to derail the topic, but on my way to Pele's Pizza at the insistence of my parents. Apparently they take "call aheads", but they don't hold reservations. Slightly confusing, ha.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 06, 2012, 10:14:34 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 06, 2012, 09:59:16 AM
great article Ennis....I visited Piedmont Park a few months ago and was stunned by all of the things that had been added over the past few years....their new aquatic center is absolutely gorgeous and the adjacent playground is very heavily used....also interesting is the modern art-inspired playground up the hill from there (not shown in the pictures).
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Piedmont-Park-Atlanta/i-RSKRh4M/0/M/P1540017-M.jpg)
Remembered there was something significant about the playscape, but just Googled.
http://forecastpublicart.org/par-50.php
Isamu Noguchi, 1976
I have had the pleasure of playing on said playground. Of course I was with friends and we were all far from sober the few times we enjoyed that section of the park ;) (College experimentation days...have had plenty of those in that park years ago)
QuoteJacksonville just needs one waterfront park downtown
We have it in Met Park but the City of Jacksonville has done a piss poor job of investment into it. Really a shame, could have been so much more, now an after thought and host to a handful of events.
Mayor Brown - At least Mayor Peyton had a few concerts there, why don't you get off your butt and deploy a few concerts there as well?! Invest in downtown, a place where people will show up, if you make the investment!
I think concerts at Metropolitan Park are a complete waste. It's a good mile from the heart of downtown and offers little economic benefit to downtown businesses. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more of its events shifted to spots like Hemming. By the way, we also have Friendship Fountain and a good chunk of green
space lining the Northbank Riverwalk between CSX and the Landing that we do nothing with. Imo, we have enough parks. Instead of adding to supply, we ought to be investing and better maintaining the ones we do have.
It should also be noted that funding for Piedmont Park is driven by the Piedmont Park Conservancy. Many people are "members" of Piedmont Park and pay annual dues. It's similar to the High Museum and other museums and the Botanical Gardens. It takes funding from member dues, its endowment, and major fundraisers and capital campaigns. The City of Atlanta cannot afford its park system. The Conservancy has invested over $64M since 1989 in Piedmont Park from private funds.
http://www.piedmontpark.org/visit/history.html
There is also this Piedmont Beautification Foundation.
http://www.piedmontbeautificationfoundation.org/projects.htm
City Parks Alliance
http://www.cityparksalliance.org/why-urban-parks-matter/frontline-parks/parks/148
Chastain Park is even larger than Piedmont Park, and ownership has been transferred from the City of Atlanta to 11 for-profit and non-profit entities operating within the park. The Chastain Park Conservancy oversees all of it. There is the Amphitheater, which is a joint venture between Live Nation and the Atlanta Symphony, there's the Cultural Center, which is operated by a division of parks and recreation, then there are non-profits like the Horse Center and for-profits like the golf course and the tennis center.
http://www.chastainparkconservancy.org/parkinfo.html
Chastain Park Civic Association - annual membership of $95 supports the park
http://chastainpark.org/
Centennial Olympic Park originally cost about $75M, and was largely funded by 486,000 engraved bricks, much like under the pavilions on the northbank riverwalk.
And finally here is a general article I found while searching for various park funding. It gives examples of economic impacts of parks across the country, and goes specifically into the numbers.
http://www.naturewithin.info/Policy/APA_econ.pdf
We have seen how the City of Jacksonville treats its parks and we know it has the lowest parks budget in the state, and without re-allocating funds from something else or raising taxes, it will be difficult to get the parks the city deserves. Perhaps some wealthy philanthropists and business leaders in the metro should step up and get similar funding programs in place and set up public-private partnerships with the city.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 08, 2012, 07:05:17 PM
Mayor Brown - At least Mayor Peyton had a few concerts there, why don't you get off your butt and deploy a few concerts there as well?! Invest in downtown, a place where people will show up, if you make the investment!
mtrain...there have been at ;least 3 concerts in Met Park since Mayor Brown has been in office....and the next few weeks will be pretty busy.
Quotemtrain...there have been at ;least 3 concerts in Met Park since Mayor Brown has been in office....and the next few weeks will be pretty busy.
World of Nations is NOT original, what were the 3 concerts and what are the future ones you speak of? India Fest? Really? Surely we have had other better shows since the illustrious inauguration?
How about us spend the 1.2 million Littlepage suggests on Met Park? Sure could use someone to fix the southbank boards and Navy memorial. After all Brown campaigned on being progressive, just waiting to see it, maybe I could find out at the 7/11.
How about this, Met Park is not even listed on the Jaxevents.com website, not managed by SMG, its managed by the same group that manages Hemming Plaza, yes, now I see where the problem lies, not in the park, but the management.
I am sure that all the folks who were at the Styx show will love seeing http://www.welcometorockvillefestival.com/ (http://www.welcometorockvillefestival.com/)
What no pit in the ground with mud was available?
QuoteInstead of adding to supply, we ought to be investing and better maintaining the ones we do have.
Lake, sure, I'll use your own words. Thanks
Met Park will hold 10,000 people, the pavilion 3,000. It is a great location, along the river and perfect for outdoor entertainment. You can't put 10% of that in Hemming Plaza without having someone yell fire, and setting off a major panic. Plus, where do 1,000 people park in Hemming Plaza? With Met park, you have Lot J, K, H, M, N - you get the picture, and can you arrive at Hemming Plaza by boat. I rest my case.
Met Park was created in 1984, but what has the city really done with it since?
QuoteSure could use someone to fix the southbank boards and Navy memorial.
That is part of a $6.2mm redesign of the Southbank Riverwalk Haskell is doing which should start later this year.
I agree MetPark is VASTLY underutilized b/w noise restrictions and virtually no active programming (St Aug Ampitheatre gets all of those concerts due to a great program manager and the fact that they don't have to worry about neighbors across the river). Met Park has been plagued by years of bad plans and noise complaints. Hell, Peyton wanted to FLATTEN the land at one point (which made no sense for an outdoor ampitheatre).
Hemming though could easily see outdoor concerts that could draw 500-1,000 people however if that was the City's actual perogative.
Is it just me, or is large sprawling urban parks overrated? I guess that you would most likely disagree with me if you're a kite flyer, picnicker, frisbee tosser, dog walker (no offense Dog Walker LOL) etc. I look at Piedmont and most large urban parks as 'anyplace USA'. I can come up with about twenty places in the ATL I rather visit than Piedmont. Just looking at a perspective of what makes a large park park successful (atleast during the day) they all have one thing in common; They are around upper to mid class 'decent' areas and they have a perception of being safe; Like it or not, things like low income housing (like in the case of Hogan Creek) can have a negative effect on a park, esp with perception.
BTW, a group from London last year did a study and found homes near parks where sold at a 20-30% premium. Must have the PDF on my laptop at home as I can't find it at the moment.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 12:53:56 PM
QuoteInstead of adding to supply, we ought to be investing and better maintaining the ones we do have.
Lake, sure, I'll use your own words. Thanks
I'm confused. Are you saying Metropolitan Park doesn't exist? This particular comment was made in response to simms3's suggestion that downtown Jacksonville needs a downtown waterfront park. From my take, we already have them.
QuoteMet Park will hold 10,000 people, the pavilion 3,000. It is a great location, along the river and perfect for outdoor entertainment.
It's just a mile away from everything else. Might as well invest in Riverside's Memorial Park because downtown will get the same amount of economic benefit from said investment. It sucks that it's in a location that doesn't contribute to pedestrian scale vibrancy and economic development of downtown. By the way, I'm coming from a perspective of clustering complementing uses in downtown. Imo, Metropolitan Park might was well be Talleyrand or East Jax.
QuoteYou can't put 10% of that in Hemming Plaza without having someone yell fire, and setting off a major panic. Plus, where do 1,000 people park in Hemming Plaza? With Met park, you have Lot J, K, H, M, N - you get the picture, and can you arrive at Hemming Plaza by boat. I rest my case.
Close the streets. We did it for the Jazz Fest and the Super Bowl. That's also what they do in several other communities. Everything doesn't have to be in an isolated venue.
QuoteMet Park was created in 1984, but what has the city really done with it since?
Since 1984, Kids Campus was constructed and taken away in less than a decade. Other than that, Klutho's award winning Hogans Creek promenade was completed in 1929 and Hemming Plaza's makeover occurred around the same time Met Park was created. Notice the common characteristic?
Large spwaling parks are what make the small ones special. I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.
In reference to Hemming Plaza there is a skyway station right there. People can park and ride.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 09, 2012, 01:15:30 PM
I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.
HC can be cleaned, but it will still have that perception of being 'near the hood'. I'm just telling it like it is, I know that people don't wanna hear that.
Quote from: I-10east on April 09, 2012, 01:24:52 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on April 09, 2012, 01:15:30 PM
I-10east I dont this you make this comment if Hogan's Creek was well kept by the city.
HC can be cleaned, but it will still have that perception of being 'near the hood'. I'm just telling it like it is, I know that people don't wanna hear that.
One needs to look no further than Buffalo Bayou and Dequindre Cut to disprove that theory.
Detroit
(http://media.treehugger.com/assets/images/2011/10/dequindre-cut-detroit-before-after.jpg)
From this:
(http://www.detroityes.com/news/070726/601pics/Dequindre-watertower-42314.jpg)
To this:
(http://www.modeldmedia.com/Images/Features/Issue%20242/DN-deqcut.jpg)
Houston
From this:
(http://users.hal-pc.org/~lfa/Arsenal.jpg)
To this:
(http://static.culturemap.com/site_media/uploads/photos/2010-06-09/Buffalo_Bayou_by_Buffalo_Bayou_Partnership.350w_263h.jpg)
(http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/fishboat/boat/paddlingtrails/coastal/buffalo_bayou/images/BB1.jpg)
Metropolitan Park seems like an (older) poor man's version of Chicago's Millennium Park, except not within walking distance of anything. Big sprawling parks to me aren't a problem, unless they're hard to access. When I look at Hemming Plaza, I imagine it would work better as an actual plaza (something you walk on, not drive around). I can only imagine the horror at this idea, but turning Laura or Hogan between Duval and Monroe into a pedestrian mall would make the Plaza a more relevant space in the city.
(http://www.go-colorado.com/CO/images/photos/boulder-MR-pearl-street-mall.jpg)
(Boulder, CO)
We have many great parks, including many great parks in the urban core, but no great downtown parks. Hemming Plaza is obviously not working. Confederate Park and Hogan's Creek ought to be a major attraction but we're sitting on our hands. Met Park is underutilized and will never achieve its potential as long as we're a city that takes noise complaints as the word of God. We have plenty to work with but we keep doing nothing.
QuoteConfederate Park and Hogan's Creek ought to be a major attraction but we're sitting on our hands.
Planning and the Mayor's office can offer more details, but the City, during Delaney's term were trying to get Federal Funds to help clean up Hogan Creek. Back in the day, there were some facilities that dumped some very bad stuff in the creek. Same with McCoy's Creek. Only so much money to go around and light rail costs more than fixing our streams and creeks. Needless to say there are still lots of areas with contaminants you wouldn't step foot on downtown, but not a lot of money to clean it up.
QuoteI can only imagine the horror at this idea, but turning Laura or Hogan between Duval and Monroe into a pedestrian mall would make the Plaza a more relevant space in the city.
They did this in Downtown Denver, can't remember the street, but it works great, and the area has thrived. I would have no problem if the City blocked all cars on Laura fro the river to Union. Best idea I have heard out here in a while!
QuoteThis particular comment was made in response to simms3's suggestion that downtown Jacksonville needs a downtown waterfront park. From my take, we already have them.
I was agreeing with you that we have enough waterfront parks, we just need to take better care of them.
QuoteIt's just a mile away from everything else. Might as well invest in Riverside's Memorial Park because downtown will get the same amount of economic benefit from said investment. It sucks that it's in a location that doesn't contribute to pedestrian scale vibrancy and economic development of downtown. By the way, I'm coming from a perspective of clustering complementing uses in downtown. Imo, Metropolitan Park might was well be Talleyrand or East Jax.
It's a mile, OMG, a whole mile? No one drives to a Jags game or takes the water taxi, so I am sure no one can find Met park, being a mile away from downtown. The Arena, the Baseball Grounds and the Stadium are all not contributing to a "pedestrian scale vibrancy", but let's level them and start over? Maybe the planners of Met Park built the park there on the river to take advantage of the parking and events at other locations. The cost to build Hemming Plaza into an area for concerts, like that of Met Park is just too expensive, and no one has proven that anyone, with salt, would use the park, with or without thousands of dollars of expense. Met park is more proven and more worth while for changes.
QuoteClose the streets. We did it for the Jazz Fest and the Super Bowl. That's also what they do in several other communities. Everything doesn't have to be in an isolated venue.
Now this is a stretch. We only closed Bay and Water Streets from the Landing down to the miracle mile area that is too far for anyone to walk. The Jazz fest used to be at Met Park, on grass, along the river, now it is on concrete and a "pocket" park. The Farah's are thrilled to have the city take over their lot, and then have to clean it up at their expense.
If the City rebuilt Hemming at the same time of Met Park, why did Hemming not receive more of an entertainment park area? Hemming is not Met Park, even with a skyway stop. As it is JTA employees don't even ride the Skyway, and they are mandated to use public transportation.
If it worked for a population three times than what's there today, there's no reason to believe this area can't host more events.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/History/Hemming-Park/i-PmxN4zb/0/M/Richard-Nixon-1960-M.jpg)
QuoteIt's a mile, OMG, a whole mile? No one drives to a Jags game or takes the water taxi, so I am sure no one can find Met park, being a mile away from downtown. The Arena, the Baseball Grounds and the Stadium are all not contributing to a "pedestrian scale vibrancy", but let's level them and start over?
Demolish and host more events in the heart of downtown instead of Metropolitan Park are two different topics. I never said level anything. I'm the guy in favor of keeping the city hall annex building. I was in favor of keeping Kids Kampus and connecting the riverwalk to Metropolitan Park. However, I'm not two crazy about hosting events that could provide an economic boost to downtown in isolation. Btw, a mile is a huge distance at the pedestrian scale level. It's not a big deal if that mile is something like Ybor's 7th Avenue. However, we're talking about industrial wasteland.
QuoteMaybe the planners of Met Park built the park there on the river to take advantage of the parking and events at other locations.
Whatever the reason, it definitely wasn't meant to be an economic boost to downtown, which is the focus I've taken regarding this particular discussion.
QuoteThe cost to build Hemming Plaza into an area for concerts, like that of Met Park is just too expensive, and no one has proven that anyone, with salt, would use the park, with or without thousands of dollars of expense. Met park is more proven and more worth while for changes.
Actually both are vastly under utilized, just like the majority of our urban public spaces.
QuoteIf the City rebuilt Hemming at the same time of Met Park, why did Hemming not receive more of an entertainment park area?
Glad you asked. I think most of us can agree that the 70s and 80s were a dark era for urban planning in Jacksonville. Hemming was converted from a place where events were held into a concrete plaza in a failed attempt to "save" downtown retail. It's conversion actually help put the final nail in the coffin of major retailers operating around it. Even now, the city views Hemming as a place to pass through, moreso than a public space destination. However, that view is completely opposite to Hemming's original purpose.
QuotePlanning and the Mayor's office can offer more details, but the City, during Delaney's term were trying to get Federal Funds to help clean up Hogan Creek. Back in the day, there were some facilities that dumped some very bad stuff in the creek. Same with McCoy's Creek. Only so much money to go around and light rail costs more than fixing our streams and creeks. Needless to say there are still lots of areas with contaminants you wouldn't step foot on downtown, but not a lot of money to clean it up.
I can speak confidentally on this issue.
There are a variety of entities that are on the hook for cleanup.
Most of the federal money has been funneled to other sources (Army Corps of Engineers money went to pay for the War in Iraq) (EPA monies through Brownfields Assessment grants have gone to other Brownfields sites-Jax has by far the most in the state) (dissolved oxygen content funds from the EPA vs Florida TMDL lawsuit, which at this time has only allocated money for testing standards, not performance enhancement measures) (EPA monies flowing through a designated EPA Superfund site, the Jacksonville Ash Superfund Site, designed to cleanup the Forest Street and Fifth and Cleveland Ash Sites which lie in the creek basin).
JEA and Public Works(Storm Water Utility and Water and Sewer Expansion Authority) have various responsibilities and funds allocated for stormwater management plans. BJP had money allocated for septic tank removals(that money is dried up).
The City of Jacksonville is working with the EPA and Florida Department of Environmental Protection to either designate this area a superfund site, or to force private landowners to be obligated to share in the cost of any clean up of coal tar deposits in the area around the current park system. That has stalled some time ago.
There is currently $901,075 allocated towards the construction of the Hogans Creek Greenway, however that is being held up by issues upstream(ACOE work and the current tidal flooding work conducted by Public Works) and downstream(Ash remediation).
Public Works has been doing a project at the mouth of the creek designed to help flooding downstream. That and the recent EPA Science and Ecosystem Support Division's report focusing on the health of marine life in the creek are the only money that has been spent in the last year on Hogans.
There are about a dozen various 'hands' into the creek... none of these hands want to get dirty nor work in unison with each other... and in the end, nothing gets done... meanwhile monies get funneled elsewhere.
If it was a priority to key leaders, it would be a different story. But, it's not. Most say 'Oh yeah, Hogans Creek. Someone is doing something about that... I think' and then drive the conversation to an unrelated topic.
QuoteHowever, that view is completely opposite to Hemming's original purpose.
Lake, that is just the IT. Hemming was never designed to be used the way it is now, but times have changed since its creation and re-birth. Heck, the city has changed. Why must we want to go back and create a vision of what was, instead of what people want now? The lack of crowds downtown show that people do not want to congregate in Hemming Plaza. Besides JMOMA, the Library, a few stores around it and the peripheral block, there is really nothing THERE, that someone cannot find elsewhere in Jacksonville.
The picture you show of Nixon being downtown, maybe that is the key, make it an area for press conferences and news media. Move City Hall meetings out to the park, make the park more of a focal point for city activities, hold meetings there that would otherwise be held in the Ed Ball Building or City Hall. Put the attention on the park, with people using the park, that its more than a simple park, its where Jacksonville does business.
Retail-wise, there just is not enough variation to make a difference for people to need to travel downtown to go to it. However, if the Municipal Code Enforcement meetings were held there, I'd go to them in the park. Same with the LUZ meetings. Why not use the park for more government events?
QuoteIf it was a priority to key leaders, it would be a different story. But, it's not. Most say 'Oh yeah, Hogans Creek.
Field - You da man! Thanks for sharing some light on this issue. It will take the right Mayor and administration to really want to have this change, just as it took the right administration to want to alter 12 blocks of Main Street during Delaney's term, only to find Peyton not continuing the good fight. Different people with different priorities.
I seriously doubt if a candidate could run on fixing Hogan's creek to gain more votes than the few here on MJ would provide. Most of the county only cares about their own backyard.
QuoteI seriously doubt if a candidate could run on fixing Hogan's creek to gain more votes than the few here on MJ would provide.
Think of how much political clout a sitting politician would have though if they were to rebuild this while in office.
There is a reason politicians like Jim King and Tillie Fowler become local legends...
Quote from: I-10east on April 09, 2012, 01:07:05 PM
Is it just me, or is large sprawling urban parks overrated? I guess that you would most likely disagree with me if you're a kite flyer, picnicker, frisbee tosser, dog walker (no offense Dog Walker LOL) etc. I look at Piedmont and most large urban parks as 'anyplace USA'. I can come up with about twenty places in the ATL I rather visit than Piedmont. Just looking at a perspective of what makes a large park park successful (atleast during the day) they all have one thing in common; They are around upper to mid class 'decent' areas and they have a perception of being safe; Like it or not, things like low income housing (like in the case of Hogan Creek) can have a negative effect on a park, esp with perception.
I love this post because it makes so little sense to me.
First off, to have a large sprawling urban park, first you need the urban part. Jax doesn't have the density of ATL in its urban core, so it is difficult to imagine a park of Piedmont's size in Jax, so I understand your false perception.
However, that park is part of what makes living in downtown ATL possible. What would Manhattan be without Central Park? Far more depressing, I can tell you that for sure. You can't stack that many people in that small of a space without some sort of outlet for them. Small plazas and pocket parks don't fulfill this need, only large grass filled parks do. In dense urban centers, large parks aren't a luxury, they are a necessity.
In Jax it is different, but it doesn't mean we don't need a large urban park. We don't currently have a very dense and populated urban core that would otherwise have no access to green space, but we someday will. We also have the benefit of being on the river, near the beach, and close to undeveloped expanses of land that the city has procured and made park space. Add to this the fact that nobody who can afford one goes without a car in this city. All of that takes away the absolute dire need for a large urban park, but it is still important to QOL. Large urban green-spaces make dense urban life downtown possible. I don't think anyone would say those parks are 'anyplace USA'. That statement also fails to consider that London, Paris, Copenhagen, Berlin, Madrid......etc all have large urban green-spaces. We have been building them for hundreds of years and they seem to work out great for everyone but you, I-10.
Amen Zissou. It should also be pointed out that peer cities such as Charlotte are jumping on the bandwagon and creating great park spaces and urban trails and Nashville already has an absolutely wonderful urban park system in addition to a well maintained riverwalk. Birmingham opened a wonderful park last year right in the middle of downtown that has become quite a large draw, and in addition to that it actually has some of the prettiest parks in the SE, one of which has the Botanical Gardens and the zoo (both free if I'm not mistaken) and another of which has that Vulcan statue, the largest cast-iron statue in the world. The Vulcan statue is a cultural icon, a landmark for lost drivers, a tourist draw and really ties the city's past to its present.
New Orleans has some very famous large urban parks, as well, that have been highlighted on MetroJacksonville already before. Audubon and City Park come to mind.
Saint Louis has absolutely one of the best urban parks in the country, with monuments and free museums and a free zoo and everything one could wish for in a great urban park. This is in the West End over to LaDue, but downtown has its share of park space, as welll, in addition to a well maintained riverfront.
The whole state of Florida really lacks on the park front, but I see major strides being made (finally) in Miami, which needs parks more than any city I can think of and does not utilize its waterfront at all. BUT major major donations from philanthropists to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars have been given for new parks and museums.
On the funding front, it ain't going to be the city that builds our parks, and in modern America since the 1970s it rarely if ever is. It will have to come from donations and foundations and trusts. This is why in addition to hipsters, artists, and higher taxes (imho), a healthy city needs lots of wealthy CEOs and philanthropists and major corporate sponsors. A well rounded city benefits the most.
Back a few pages I summarized the funding mechanisms in place for some of the parks in Atlanta, including Piedmont. It's all mostly private now, and parks are quite expensive.
Why can't a park be a park? Doesn't it have to be urban, and large? I get that yall all have urban tunnel vision, but what wrong with pristine park out in a natural setting? Where's this supposed 'vast urban park' is gonna be in Jax? Everyone wants to make Hogan Creek a mini Central Park, but in TODAYS HC setting, I still haven't heard a logical answer yet.
^A city with the best park and preserve system in the country should have good downtown parks. Currently all of our downtown parks are lacking if not totally behind (I'll leave out Friendship Fountain, as it's quite nice at this point, but it can't carry the load by itself.)
I think if Jax has a signature park, it would have to be the Riverwalks. If I were going to invest in a park, I think the Riverwalks are the first ones I would invest in. Jacksonville has the unique potential to have an amazing "blue space" in the heart of the city, and these parks have the qualities that you've talked about with others. They have a mix of uses. They have potential to really interact with the businesses on their peripheries (although they don't currently do a great job of this). They have some access to residential areas, but again this can be improved. Moreover they really seem to fit the character of "Florida's River City by the Sea."
I would personally like to see the Riverwalk linked in with one of the nearby piers, and have at least some parts opened to fishing (which I could see supporting some organic business opportunities like baitshops or so on). Maybe the Northbank should be expanded to Memorial which again links it to residential areas. Maybe we could have a grant program to encourage businesses like those in the Gulf Life building to interact more with the Riverwalk with better signage or outdoor dining.
This is the one park that I see as an underutilized gem which also has the potential to expand the tax base and could generate support from a much larger group of citizens. Plus, it has a character that could make it stand out in a crowd especially with what they've already done to friendship fountain.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 08, 2012, 07:26:12 PM
I think concerts at Metropolitan Park are a complete waste. It's a good mile from the heart of downtown and offers little economic benefit to downtown businesses. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing more of its events shifted to spots like Hemming. By the way, we also have Friendship Fountain and a good chunk of green
space lining the Northbank Riverwalk between CSX and the Landing that we do nothing with. Imo, we have enough parks. Instead of adding to supply, we ought to be investing and better maintaining the ones we do have.
Yea i see what you mean. Hemming Plaza is nice spot for events.
Quote from: I-10east on April 10, 2012, 04:27:04 PM
Why can't a park be a park? Doesn't it have to be urban, and large? I get that yall all have urban tunnel vision, but what wrong with pristine park out in a natural setting?
Nothing. It would be nice to have a few in the urban core. Btw, we actually have the parks already. We just need to better maintain and utilize them.
QuoteWhere's this supposed 'vast urban park' is gonna be in Jax? Everyone wants to make Hogan Creek a mini Central Park, but in TODAYS HC setting, I still haven't heard a logical answer yet.
We have a 'vast' historical urban park. It's the mile long green space lining Hogans Creek. All everybody wants is its grounds and amenities refurbished and maintained. I'm not following what in today's setting makes that an illogical dream? Also, Exchange Island is a pristine urban park that can be better utilized as well.
Quote from: Fallen Buckeye on April 10, 2012, 05:50:43 PM
I think if Jax has a signature park, it would have to be the Riverwalks. If I were going to invest in a park, I think the Riverwalks are the first ones I would invest in. Jacksonville has the unique potential to have an amazing "blue space" in the heart of the city, and these parks have the qualities that you've talked about with others. They have a mix of uses. They have potential to really interact with the businesses on their peripheries (although they don't currently do a great job of this). They have some access to residential areas, but again this can be improved. Moreover they really seem to fit the character of "Florida's River City by the Sea."
I would personally like to see the Riverwalk linked in with one of the nearby piers, and have at least some parts opened to fishing (which I could see supporting some organic business opportunities like baitshops or so on). Maybe the Northbank should be expanded to Memorial which again links it to residential areas. Maybe we could have a grant program to encourage businesses like those in the Gulf Life building to interact more with the Riverwalk with better signage or outdoor dining.
This is the one park that I see as an underutilized gem which also has the potential to expand the tax base and could generate support from a much larger group of citizens. Plus, it has a character that could make it stand out in a crowd especially with what they've already done to friendship fountain.
The riverwalk can be a good linear park lined with a mix of uses but it lacks the recreational component. By recreational, I mean playing fields, courts, etc. Without recreating the wheel, Hogans Creek's parks already have these components in place. It also has something like $1 million that been set aside for years to fund the construction of a one mile 12' multi-use path. It's a huge asset, that with better maintenance can become a great amenity and economic generator for Springfield, Eastside, Sugar Hill, and Downtown. Long term, it would be great to connect them (Hogans Creek parks and the riverwalk) as shown in the 2000 Downtown Master Plan.
QuoteSaint Louis has absolutely one of the best urban parks in the country, with monuments and free museums and a free zoo and everything one could wish for in a great urban park. This is in the West End over to LaDue, but downtown has its share of park space, as welll, in addition to a well maintained riverfront.
I went to St. Louis last year to get a car and we stayed down near Washington University and there were some great areas around it, nice parks, but also some ghetto extremely close to where the nicer areas were located. They do have some great, expansive parks, but would you want to enjoy them, if they were so close to the run down areas of town? I avoided the parks, needless to say, and the fact that it was 97, 99 and 93 the days we were there, not much of a fan of parks without a breeze or water.
A well maintained riverfront? Could it be because of a MAJOR tourist attraction in the form of the GATEWAY to the west? Having been up in the arch, there is a nice concrete park as well as a nice Park Service attraction there, but then there is really just a park similar to the one you see along the Northside of the Mississippi in New Orleans, levees, gates, and concrete, well lit of course, but not a lot there. The big difference is that St. Louis has the arch, and well, we have the Hyatt. They also have actual commerce going up and down the river daily, paddle boats, etc.
Could we raise the Maple and put her on display downtown? Or could Shad build us a new paddleboat, the size of the Maple and put it along the northbank? For a water city, our cruising should not only be limited to Mayport.
Quote
A well maintained riverfront? Could it be because of a MAJOR tourist attraction in the form of the GATEWAY to the west?
St Louis' waterfront benefits greatly from the gambling boats and river cruises.
@Lakelander - Point taken. I guess what I'm getting at is that we aren't using this asset to its full potential, and it seems like Hogan's Creek falls into the same boat. I'm not really all that familiar with the Springfield area or the Hogan's Creek Parks. I didn't realize that funds had been set aside for Hogan's Creek already.