Just in....
QuoteTania Ganguli @taniaganguli
NOOOOOOOOO!!!! Worst. News. Ever. RT @garytmills: Avondale's 'town restaurant will close at end of month to make way for Mellow Mushroom.
I think its good new. I like local business as much as the next guy, but they do a really good job trying to fit into the fabric of a neighborhood. Their efforts to bring in and market local beer are to applauded as well.
signed sealed and delivered. They are taking up 'town and the old gas station. They won't own the building(s) though. Leasing....may even take over the shoe store.
Send as though ' town is looking to relocate, not close. That could be good news for another smaller vacant storefront in the area.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on April 03, 2012, 05:04:01 PM
Just in....
QuoteTania Ganguli @taniaganguli
NOOOOOOOOO!!!! Worst. News. Ever. RT @garytmills: Avondale's 'town restaurant will close at end of month to make way for Mellow Mushroom.
Sounds like Tania Ganguli and I might disagree on a lot of things. I'm pumped about this news. If the gas station gets turned into MM, I'll be so stoked. I am sure it will be one of the most unique spaces in Jacksonville.
I agree with what was previously said about MM. While they are a chain, they really differentiate between locations, try and engage their neighborhood, and bring a good product. Their partnership with Intuition and Green Room for beer week is an example of that.
The last time I went to (pause)towne the waitress called the salad I was about to order "pedestrian". My response was "then why is it on the menu?". Needless to say, I've never been back.
'town and I never quite got on. The service was so-so, but the menu was just too out there for me. Maybe my tastes are too "pedestrian."
So, this is welcome news.
Quote from: Jimmy on April 03, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
'town and I never quite got on. The service was so-so, but the menu was just too out there for me. Maybe my tastes are too "pedestrian."
So, this is welcome news.
Pedestrian. Since when did walking become out of vogue?
As I've heard, the decision was made to move MM in, not without input from both Emily and Meghan, and Meghan found it as a better idea to move her restaurant elsewhere.
Interpreted: We're raising the rent to an unsustainable level because of our new client's offer, we're not selling the building, but you're welcome to stay. Here are the terms.
Maybe we can hope for an even greater tenant for King St. She doesn't want to get larger, due to the style of restaurant. So she, 'town, would look to be an awesome new tenant in a smaller kitchen space in the area. I don't think she'll move to San Marco and try to re-establish a solid customer base.
All in all, it seems to be a win-win-win-lose. (Lose - I don't know what Emily's plans are)
Conflicted.
I love 'town, and we patronized it often. (I will really miss the awesome eggplant/artichoke filo rolls.) If Emly and the chef have a better offer elsewhere, I can't really complain. But MM will add a huge new parking load--a la the new Kickbacks--that may well spark the Overlay revolt some have been prediciting.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-03/avondale-restaurant-plans-close-months-end (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-03/avondale-restaurant-plans-close-months-end)
Still can't believe it, but without seeing plans on how they will change the gas station, it took Kickbacks months to get an agreement with RAP, could we be without a vendor in the 'town space for all of 2012 while MM builds their new facility?
'town does not offer a lot of storage space, so there is going to have to be reconfiguration, for sure. Just not sure about the gas station, nor where will people park, but hey, I could care less, I'll be walking or biking to MM. So bring it on, and may the PARKING WARS begin!
Emily could open a shop at Town Center and be fine with the traffic there. She can sell her $800 per pair window shoes anywhere, really.
Meghan could probably move down to Riverside, but the clientele will be different. They could move to the other side of the Prudential parking lot, to where the furnishings auction center is located, near Anita's, but they would need to add all the kitchen items again. Their clientele are in Avondale so San Marco is also an option, I don't see it working the same in 5-points. just my 2 cents.
How bout 'town for the old Fuel space?
Quote from: grimss on April 03, 2012, 10:16:34 PM
Conflicted.
I love 'town, and we patronized it often. (I will really miss the awesome eggplant/artichoke filo rolls.) If Emly and the chef have a better offer elsewhere, I can't really complain. But MM will add a huge new parking load--a la the new Kickbacks--that may well spark the Overlay revolt some have been prediciting.
Since these are existing buildings, I assume MM is exempt from off-street parking requirements?
That's my limited understanding of the zoning overlay. Since they're not building new buildings, MM would be exempt. Just like Pele's was.
I agree, good news. Mellow does a really great job & has a lot of stuff going on inside its doors, live music, etc. And they stay open really late (like 2am I believe).
Anything that stays open late, has decent food/prices & is kid friendly too (not a full on bar) is OK in my book. Jax needs more stuff like this IMO.
Not thrilled. MM is a chain. It will consume 3 store fronts. Restaurants eat up a lot of parking space and MM will be exempt from providing any parking. All those cars from Brick that use the old Shell station will need to park elsewhere. Would have preferred the 7-11, which carries stuff I might need on short notice. How many times a week do I need pizza?
All the more reason to support alternative forms of mobility, imo.
Quote from: thehill on April 03, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
Their efforts to bring in and market local beer are to applauded as well.
Here, here!
Man those people in Avondale are going to be regretting their banishment of the Sev.
Quote from: undergroundgourmet on April 03, 2012, 05:45:13 PM
signed sealed and delivered. They are taking up 'town and the old gas station. They won't own the building(s) though. Leasing....may even take over the shoe store.
My significant other will not be happy about the shoe store going...
Quote from: Jimmy on April 03, 2012, 09:25:58 PM
'town and I never quite got on. The service was so-so, but the menu was just too out there for me. Maybe my tastes are too "pedestrian."
So, this is welcome news.
+1. I never had a problem with the menu. It wasn't too 'far out there' for me. Duck/lentils, shrimp/grits...eh, had it all before. I always had a problem with the final product. The food never tasted right to me. Not to mention the manager was terrible.
On another note, if 'town (and maybe Emily's shoe store) are moving, I can't help to add to the "what about the Fuel space," or, what about the old Deco Bistro space? As long as all the relocating establishments stay local, I'm happy.
I'm sad to see the $10 bottomless mimosas go andI like Mellow Mushroom but there are so many pizza places near by, The Loop, Moon River, Carmines, and Peles.
Quote from: TPC on April 04, 2012, 08:30:31 AM
I'm sad to see the $10 bottomless mimosas go andI like Mellow Mushroom but there are so many pizza places near by, The Loop, Moon River, Carmines, and Peles.
I don't think they are going for good. From what I hear on this thread and otherwise, they aren't dissolving the restaurant. All they're doing is moving.
One thing I will say about Mellow Mushroom is they do a pretty good of designing their stores. I saw some pretty cool ones up in Tennessee a few weeks back.
Quote from: copperfiend on April 04, 2012, 08:53:05 AM
One thing I will say about Mellow Mushroom is they do a pretty good of designing their stores. I saw some pretty cool ones up in Tennessee a few weeks back.
+1. They aren't a cookie cutter chain, that's for sure. Let's see how they incorporate the old 'town space with the gas station. Could be a really cool setup.
It sucks that 'town will have to move. I've heard good things. It would be a real pity if they weren't able to reopen and we replaced a cool restaurant with yet another pizza place.
That said, I'm totally cool with Mellow. I have no doubt they'll make good use of the space. The parking will be nuts; time for transit, everyone!
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 03, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
The last time I went to (pause)towne the waitress called the salad I was about to order "pedestrian". My response was "then why is it on the menu?". Needless to say, I've never been back.
Hey - I'm on the bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee. What's wrong with "pedestrian?"
Seriously, I don't get it with Mellow Mushroom. The one near Tinseltown is just a chain, and there was one in Nashville that was just a chain. We ate there once or twice, but it was blah. I'd rather not see a chain restaurant in Avondale.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 04, 2012, 10:02:38 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 03, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
The last time I went to (pause)towne the waitress called the salad I was about to order "pedestrian". My response was "then why is it on the menu?". Needless to say, I've never been back.
Hey - I'm on the bicycle and pedestrian advisory committee. What's wrong with "pedestrian?"
Seriously, I don't get it with Mellow Mushroom. The one near Tinseltown is just a chain, and there was one in Nashville that was just a chain. We ate there once or twice, but it was blah. I'd rather not see a chain restaurant in Avondale.
Talk to ten people, you'll get ten different responses/thoughts/feelings on chain restaurants. By and large, I'm not for them. BUT, I do think MM can do a good job reusing the gas station lot and the adjoining restaurant space. Plus, it'll bring lots of business and MM fans to the area. I said it once but I'll say it again: 'town (and maybe Emily's) moving, IF they stay in Riverside, can be a fantastic thing. It'll either a) enhance the Park/King area beyond belief or b) take over 2 vacant spots in 5 Points. Win-win, IMO. To me, Riverside IS the "core"...the more dining options we have, the more people we coming to/from the area, the better. Bring it on.
Not to mention "Riverside" and "Breweries" and "lots of beer" are three phrases that are quickly becoming synonymous. YAY.
We've already got enough restaurants. What Avondale needs is a clean and safe convenience store.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on April 04, 2012, 10:02:38 AM
Quote from: Captain Zissou on April 03, 2012, 06:10:26 PM
The last time I went to (pause)towne the waitress called the salad I was about to order "pedestrian". My response was "then why is it on the menu?". Needless to say, I've never been back.
I'd rather not see a chain restaurant in Avondale.
Well, the Prudential Network Realty, Exit Realty, and Coldwell Bankers are all big chains. So is the Sherwin Williams Paint Store. They're not restaurants but chains nonetheless.
Technically, Underwoods, Mojo, and Peterbrooke are chains as well. Albeit local ones.
QuoteWould have preferred the 7-11, which carries stuff I might need on short notice. How many times a week do I need pizza?
+1
QuoteTo me, Riverside IS the "core"...the more dining options we have, the more people we coming to/from the area, the better.
Not to 'town its not. As it was described earlier, Riverside is more of a transient neighborhood with a lot more tenants and renter buildings than Avondale which is more homes and permanent residences. The main reason for the move is that the costs are going up for them, not that they did not have success and people at the restaurant.
Riverside is not the best location for them, they would do better to stay as close to Avondale as possible. I don't want to banish them to the Preservation Tap House location there on St. Johns, but its gotta be cheap, since its just sitting there, but something in one of the spaces like Prima Piatti or one of those storefronts would be better, since it gets a lot more storefront traffic of the kind of people who will eat duck and lentils. Time will tell.
It will be interesting to see how Chew fares in the new space as well. If I were Meghan, I'd wait and see how Insetta's new place does before putting an anchor down in Riverside/5-points. Riverside-Avondale at Park and King seems more likely, for immediate occupancy, to me.
QuoteWell, the Prudential Network Realty, Exit Realty, and Coldwell Bankers are all big chains. So is the Sherwin Williams Paint Store. They're not restaurants but chains nonetheless.
These are needed in this area, just like the 7/11 CHAIN was needed as well. The fact that these "Chains" are owned and operated by local people, with roots to Avondale, should really not matter, we feel like we are supporting our own, and the owners are providing a valuable resource to the community.
QuoteThese are needed in this area, just like the 7/11 CHAIN was needed as well. The fact that these "Chains" are owned and operated by local people, with roots to Avondale, should really not matter, we feel like we are supporting our own, and the owners are providing a valuable resource to the community.
I'm with you man. Just throwing it out there since we were talking about chains. But you're right. The truth is most chains are owned by local people (franchisees) who live within the community.
Quote from: ben says on April 04, 2012, 10:09:03 AM
Not to mention "Riverside" and "Breweries" and "lots of beer" are three phrases that are quickly becoming synonymous. YAY.
Particularly with the opening of Dahlia's Pour House, Carmine's new concept, the new Walker's concept, and now MM. This is a very good thing for craft beer in Jax.
BTW, I hope everyone is participating in Jax Craft Beer week!
It's not the chain part that concerns me so much as the food.
At a gas station or truck stop I would feel safer eating at a McDonalds than at a nonbranded restaurant. But in a setting like Avondale, I'd rather go local.
Is the guy opening up the MM in Avondale a local?
QuoteI'm with you man. Just throwing it out there since we were talking about chains. But you're right. The truth is most chains are owned by local people (franchisees) who live within the community.
Just so we are all clear, the following have more than 1 location, within Jacksonville area as well:
Barber Shop - other location in Ponte Vedra.
Biscotti's - Same team of owners as BB's in San Marco
Underwood's - San Marco office as well as others
Pulp - (not yet open) but another store in San Marco
Yobe - Location at the beaches among others
Mojo's - 3 others locally
Edible Arrangements
If I have left any off, please be sure to crucify me and update them. Thanks,
Quote from: cline on April 04, 2012, 10:54:33 AM
Is the guy opening up the MM in Avondale a local?
Most likely. I know the guys that have some of the others are. I would bet that it is the same folks.
Open Road would also be considered a local chain.
QuoteIs the guy opening up the MM in Avondale a local?
Yes, the owner is native and local Jax. He is even a member of the mug club at Intuition. You might just see him there one fine afternoon. He and his family have had the franchise here in Jax for many years, and they are good for Jax.
Wow - I guess EVERYONE would have boycotted 7-11 - pretty sure they're a chain.
From the MM website on Franchising:
QuoteThe Restaurant typically is a free standing unit or in a strip mall in a commercial area. It is approximately 4,000 to 6,000 square feet. The Restaurant’s size will depend on many factors, including the ability to place coolers and freezers outside the Restaurant and the number of seats we require.
Anyone know the number of seats required by MM? Each location is different, but John and his family seem to have a lot of seats on the Southside, Fleming Island and at the beach. I don't plan to sit in the gas station, if that is the new seating. Seems more likely to make the gas station parking, than anything else. But the shoe side will probably go away. Maybe even Underwood's at some point too.
Where would you have ever thought to see an Underwood's next to a Mellow Mushroom? If they had that space too, that would really be a large space, they could then rent the Prudential lot as well and then, there would be a lot more parking at night.
http://www.mellowfranchise.com/mellow-stories#video-option (http://www.mellowfranchise.com/mellow-stories#video-option)
The owners of the local Jacksonville market are featured on the Mellow Mushroom site, so it is common and public knowledge. Nice video as well. Say hi to John or his family if you see him on the streets or at Intuition!
So is the actual MM restaurant going into 'town/shoe store with parking in the gas station parking lot? Are they planning on utilizing the actual gas station building as well? Just wondering what the configuration will be.
I took a long look at it last night when I was getting yobe. MM would do well to feature some outdoor seating. With the former gas station's service bays left open, maybe they could do "outdoor" seating in there?
QuoteSo is the actual MM restaurant going into 'town/shoe store with parking in the gas station parking lot? Are they planning on utilizing the actual gas station building as well? Just wondering what the configuration will be.
Right now, that is the $64,000 question. How will the Gas Station and parking area be incorporated into the MM design. MM will have their own people design the space, but since this is RAP-land, the changes will probably have to go through the dreaded COA process on the outside, obviously 'town's name will come off, but how they change the layout will be interesting. Again, since they are leasing, I'd rather they push Underwood's out on the other side as well to increase the space, but Underwood's has been there a LONG time, so not sure what their lease is like, but I am sure we will all know more over the next few weeks. There IS outdoor seating at 'town now.
If it were me, I'd rather leave the Gas Station alone, use the parking lot and look to the left for expansion, rather than touch the unknowns of the station.
Will the parking at the gas station become MM-only parking or will it remain shared?
I would like to see the gas station incorporated into some sort of extension of the restaurant/outdoor seating. I understand the utility of parking lots. But aesthetically, they drive me insane. As long as the integrity of both buildings remain in tact, I'm OK.
Soooo they were 100% against a 7-11, but have no problem with a large, over-rated, chain-corporate restaurant??
Quote from: Nightman_Cometh on April 04, 2012, 12:17:29 PM
Soooo they were 100% against a 7-11, but have no problem with a large, over-rated, chain-corporate restaurant??
I don't think most Avondale shop owners even know what a contemporary 7-11 looks like. For what it's worth, I don't think they were rationally against a 7-11. They were irrationally against the
idea of a 7-11.
Riverside is the "core." The core of what? I thought MetroJacksonville expressed the concept that downtown was the core? Is Riverside the core of Riverside/Avondale?
Quote from: JaxJerry on April 04, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Riverside is the "core." The core of what? I thought MetroJacksonville expressed the concept that downtown was the core? Is Riverside the core of Riverside/Avondale?
I was using that term
extremely loosely. Didn't mean to make a definitional or policy argument.
Quote from: ben says on April 04, 2012, 12:15:25 PM
I would like to see the gas station incorporated into some sort of extension of the restaurant/outdoor seating. I understand the utility of parking lots. But aesthetically, they drive me insane. As long as the integrity of both buildings remain in tact, I'm OK.
I heard it from a good source that they will be utilizing the parking lot of the gas station as primarily an outdoor seating area.
Quote from: JaxJerry on April 04, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Riverside is the "core." The core of what? I thought MetroJacksonville expressed the concept that downtown was the core? Is Riverside the core of Riverside/Avondale?
Metro Jacksonville believes the entire 30 square mile preconsolidated city makes up the urban core. With that in mind, both downtown and Riverside are included.
+1. Nice response. All the close-in neighborhoods, and downtown itself, comprise the urban core of Jacksonville.
The guys who own the MM on Southside (I think they might be brothers but I could be wrong) are really nice and try to involve the community. They approached my friend to organize artists to paint the outside patio and tables and all of us were taken care of very well, we all received good pay, and they supplied us with a constant supply of food and beer the few days we were out there.
It would be cool if the reached out to Shawn Thurston to paint their new location.
TPC - Follow the thread back, there is a link to the Valentino family, 2 brothers and father who are involved in the franchise. I know John personally and he lives in Ortega, I think his father lives in Ortega as well. It sounds like the other brother lives at the beach, close to the other store there.
Just back from a hair cut at GTB salon on Oak Street, had to take my dog to obedience school and on the way there, I looked at the gas station again, it is physically separate from the wall at 'town, so there would have to be some connection made that would be seen from the street, so RAP would be involved and a COA, for sure, if they incorporated both structures.
On my way down Oak, I was stuck at Margaret for lunchtime traffic and I calculate that Al's Pizza has about 1500 square feet in its space. How will MM find a way to create a 4000 to 6000 square foot location with only the shoe side and restaurant sides of the building? I'm thinking they will almost definitely have to take over the old Underwood's space, to get closer to what their corporate office wants their franchises to build and use. The Southside location has 60 beers on draft and that will take some space, as well as all the bottled beers.
Quote from: ben says on April 04, 2012, 12:15:25 PM
I would like to see the gas station incorporated into some sort of extension of the restaurant/outdoor seating.
a perfect example of this is the mellow Mushroom in Asheville, NC
Quote from: JaxJerry on April 04, 2012, 12:38:15 PM
Riverside is the "core." The core of what? I thought MetroJacksonville expressed the concept that downtown was the core? Is Riverside the core of Riverside/Avondale?
as Lake responded, the preconsolidated city should all be looked at as one entity
DVI uses the term "the core" to refer to the nightlife district downtown.
Others might use the term "urban core"...but some folks react negatively to the term "urban"
so, the new term being bantered about is "in town"
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-03/avondale-restaurant-plans-close-months-end (http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-03/avondale-restaurant-plans-close-months-end)
Well, consider the shoe store gone as well...
QuoteWell, consider the shoe store gone as well...
Agreed, there is absolutely no way MM can operate in that small space without adding the Shoe side as well. I will be intrigued to see how the until 2 AM crowd affects operations at Underwood's. I see Underwood's moving somewhere else at some point, the two on either side are like oil and beer (water). Maybe not now, but the landlord would be able to make far more on MM in that space, long term. I like Underwood's and the people there, but Avondale is changing.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 04, 2012, 03:07:19 PM
QuoteWell, consider the shoe store gone as well...
Agreed, there is absolutely no way MM can operate in that small space without adding the Shoe side as well. I will be intrigued to see how the until 2 AM crowd affects operations at Underwood's. I see Underwood's moving somewhere else at some point, the two on either side are like oil and beer (water). Maybe not now, but the landlord would be able to make far more on MM in that space, long term. I like Underwood's and the people there, but Avondale is changing.
Unless I misread the article, Benhams moving is official. MM is taking over. Jeez
Well I need to go to 'town before it closes ;)
Does anyone know Purcell enough to implore her to stay in the area? Benham as well?
The article also says the combined restaurant/store space is 5,800 s.f., which would suggest it has close to the space needed for MM. A little confused by the article's distinction between what Emly Benham investments wanted to do and what 'town wanted. Isn't Benham Howard, who owns Emly Benham, Meghan Pucell's sister? I thought Benham and Meghan were co-owners of 'town.
Quote from: grimss on April 04, 2012, 03:26:37 PM
The article also says the combined restaurant/store space is 5,800 s.f., which would suggest it has close to the space needed for MM. A little confused by the article's distinction between what Emly Benham investments wanted to do and what 'town wanted. Isn't Benham Howard, who owns Emly Benham, Meghan Pucell's sister? I thought Benham and Meghan were co-owners of 'town.
+1
Quote from: grimss on April 04, 2012, 03:26:37 PM
The article also says the combined restaurant/store space is 5,800 s.f., which would suggest it has close to the space needed for MM. A little confused by the article's distinction between what Emly Benham investments wanted to do and what 'town wanted. Isn't Benham Howard, who owns Emly Benham, Meghan Pucell's sister? I thought Benham and Meghan were co-owners of 'town.
Yeah I thought I had heard that there was some kind of relationship there also. The whole deal is a little confusing.
At any rate, I'm curious to know about the parking lot at the gas station and how it will be configured for outdoor seating and if it will continue to contain parking. And if it does have parking, I wonder if it will be MM-only. It would seem to have an effect on the other restaurants in the area since it is shared right now.
From the Property Appraiser's website:
Type Gross Area Heated Area
Addition (Kit/bath) 1335 1335
Addition (Kit/bath) 1335 1335
Restaurant 1597 1597
Canopy 126 0
Base Area (Shoe side) 1597 1597
Total 5990 5864
It sure seems smaller than this space, but we'll see how it is all laid out in the end. There may be wasted space in the kitchen. Men's room has one stall, and one toilet. May not be enough for the MM beer drinkers....
Meghan owned the restaurant side, she may have been paying her sister for using that space though.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-03/avondale-restaurant-plans-close-months-end
I'm one of the dishwashers there and this came as a shock. I'll try to find a new job, but with a new round of demos downtown and the half assed idiotic plans for Hemming park, I may consider just giving up hope and move back to Jersey.
'Town is way more then just a job for me. All the people are great, I'll miss them all. Having this job has literally saved my life, I had a reason to get out of bed, I had a sense of responsibility and belonging.
I wish everyone involved the best of luck. I'm sure everyone will be just fine in the end. Like I said they're all great people.
(going to cry my eyes out now)
Sorry to hear that. A server at Carmines told me that their new Tex/Mex place in Jackson's old location is going to open up in the next month or so. Maybe you can contact Carmines regarding any positions they may need to fill at the new place.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 05, 2012, 11:59:45 AM
I'm one of the dishwashers there and this came as a shock. I'll try to find a new job, but with a new round of demos downtown and the half assed idiotic plans for Hemming park, I may consider just giving up hope and move back to Jersey.
'Town is way more then just a job for me. All the people are great, I'll miss them all. Having this job has literally saved my life, I had a reason to get out of bed, I had a sense of responsibility and belonging.
I wish everyone involved the best of luck. I'm sure everyone will be just fine in the end. Like I said they're all great people.
(going to cry my eyes out now)
Sorry to hear that. And sorry about your job, of course.
I wanted to try 'Town (I think my father-in-law is friends with the owners father or something... he told me about the restaurant last time I was in Jax and I planned on eating there when I visit this summer).
Feel bad for urbanight but glad to get something other than town in there. Way overpriced and I got sick last time I ate there.
Quote from: Kaiser Soze on April 05, 2012, 01:30:17 PM
Feel bad for urbanight but glad to get something other than town in there. Way overpriced and I got sick last time I ate there.
+1. Feel terrible about the loss of a fulfilling and well-paying job. But, on another note, that restaurant made me sick last time, was way too expensive, and the manager was a complete ass.
Also, urbanight, isn't 'town moving? I'm sure they'll rehire you...
I see pizza is the new sushi in Riverside/Avondale :D
I think there is an ESPN Announcer, Lee Corso, who says, "Not so fast my friend". That would appear to be the case here with MM in the space. Regardless, I hear 'town and Benham's is done.
MM is going to face an attack greater than that which attacked a 7/11 in the gas station. I spoke with a lot of merchants last night and many are all in agreement, they don't want more late night crowds, the suburbs in Avondale. Mojo's has been a great tenant, and has done a good job to win them over. I think the Valentino family can do the same, but it is going to take a lot to win them over. Many are still P'd with the City and the Overlay. Many are concerned that restaurants will take over the spaces and it will be nothing more than an outdoor food mall. There is nothing to stop a building owner from leasing new restaurants, no parking restrictions.
Kickback's has many of the the business owners on the edge. They see that if Kickback's can add a building for 250 more people without any accommodation for "Street" parking, there is nothing to stop the likes of a MM to do the same in Avondale. There are other options for parking in Avondale, one would be to carve out a parking area in Boone Park for the use of the patrons with a shuttle or pedicab for those who cannot walk as far, but parking in the neighborhoods is not the desired outcome. If it does come to that, Jim Love will need to get the JSO out to ticket illegal parking and really run the urban area with the resources it deserves. Speed limit on St. Johns will probably change and there will probably be flashing yellow lights at both ends to make people aware of a new speed limit, probably 20 MPH, to get them to slow down in the area.
So all eyes are watching Kickback's closely, and Paul Hardin (no socks) waits for his day in front of the council to help merchants in Avondale.
Quote from: urbaknight on April 05, 2012, 11:59:45 AM
I'm one of the dishwashers there and this came as a shock. I'll try to find a new job, but with a new round of demos downtown and the half assed idiotic plans for Hemming park, I may consider just giving up hope and move back to Jersey.
'Town is way more then just a job for me. All the people are great, I'll miss them all. Having this job has literally saved my life, I had a reason to get out of bed, I had a sense of responsibility and belonging.
I wish everyone involved the best of luck. I'm sure everyone will be just fine in the end. Like I said they're all great people.
(going to cry my eyes out now)
The sushi restaurant is opening, or Tiquana Flats. Try to hold out till Chew opens back up in Riverside, I'm sure it will be a great place to be, excellent vibe, employees, etc.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 05, 2012, 02:26:16 PM
I think there is an ESPN Announcer, Lee Corso, who says, "Not so fast my friend". That would appear to be the case here with MM in the space. Regardless, I hear 'town and Benham's is done.
MM is going to face an attack greater than that which attacked a 7/11 in the gas station. I spoke with a lot of merchants last night and many are all in agreement, they don't want more late night crowds, the suburbs in Avondale. Mojo's has been a great tenant, and has done a good job to win them over. I think the Valentino family can do the same, but it is going to take a lot to win them over. Many are still P'd with the City and the Overlay. Many are concerned that restaurants will take over the spaces and it will be nothing more than an outdoor food mall. There is nothing to stop a building owner from leasing new restaurants, no parking restrictions.
Kickback's has many of the the business owners on the edge. They see that if Kickback's can add a building for 250 more people without any accommodation for "Street" parking, there is nothing to stop the likes of a MM to do the same in Avondale. There are other options for parking in Avondale, one would be to carve out a parking area in Boone Park for the use of the patrons with a shuttle or pedicab for those who cannot walk as far, but parking in the neighborhoods is not the desired outcome. If it does come to that, Jim Love will need to get the JSO out to ticket illegal parking and really run the urban area with the resources it deserves. Speed limit on St. Johns will probably change and there will probably be flashing yellow lights at both ends to make people aware of a new speed limit, probably 20 MPH, to get them to slow down in the area.
So all eyes are watching Kickback's closely, and Paul Hardin (no socks) waits for his day in front of the council to help merchants in Avondale.
Very interesting indeed. Thanks for the update Mtrain. You're my go-to guy for Avondale/Riverside/(landlord and development) news. ;)
WOW WOW WOW.
1) Tried 'town when it was new. Ordered red snapper and was served straight up salmon. The server tried to tell me that red snapper is actually red, but despite the blatant cover up, and even if red snapper were red, it still tasted like salmon, a fish I can order just as fresh in Atlanta or STL as Jacksonville. Other than that insulting service, I did not think it was overpriced or bad at all. Too bad it couldn't survive in one of the most "sophisticated" restaurant scenes in the city.
2) Holy moly, what's all this coming out about people being upset at all the new restaurants and all the action in the Shoppes and in Avondale? What? If people in Avondale can't take a little more vibrancy, then who the hell can in Jacksonville? And restaurants are doing ok now, much better than retail. Let the restaurants open because there aren't nearly enough shops to go around.
Quote2) Holy moly, what's all this coming out about people being upset at all the new restaurants and all the action in the Shoppes and in Avondale? What? If people in Avondale can't take a little more vibrancy, then who the hell can in Jacksonville? And restaurants are doing ok now, much better than retail. Let the restaurants open because there aren't nearly enough shops to go around.
There are plenty of folks that actually live in Avondale (not Atlanta) that welcome a new restaurant who aren't upset at all about MM coming into the Shoppes. Many of them post on this board. But evidently you're "on the ground" here so you know better.
Quote from: simms3 on April 05, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
WOW WOW WOW.
1) Tried 'town when it was new. Ordered red snapper and was served straight up salmon. The server tried to tell me that red snapper is actually red, but despite the blatant cover up, and even if red snapper were red, it still tasted like salmon, a fish I can order just as fresh in Atlanta or STL as Jacksonville. Other than that insulting service, I did not think it was overpriced or bad at all. Too bad it couldn't survive in one of the most "sophisticated" restaurant scenes in the city.
2) Holy moly, what's all this coming out about people being upset at all the new restaurants and all the action in the Shoppes and in Avondale? What? If people in Avondale can't take a little more vibrancy, then who the hell can in Jacksonville? And restaurants are doing ok now, much better than retail. Let the restaurants open because there aren't nearly enough shops to go around.
It seems that you're getting more outwardly hostile and sarcastic as the days go on...
Quote from: cline on April 05, 2012, 07:23:59 PM
Quote2) Holy moly, what's all this coming out about people being upset at all the new restaurants and all the action in the Shoppes and in Avondale? What? If people in Avondale can't take a little more vibrancy, then who the hell can in Jacksonville? And restaurants are doing ok now, much better than retail. Let the restaurants open because there aren't nearly enough shops to go around.
There are plenty of folks that actually live in Avondale (not Atlanta) that welcome a new restaurant who aren't upset at all about MM coming into the Shoppes. Many of them post on this board. But evidently you're "on the ground" here so you know better.
+1000
What is openly hostile or sarcastic to what I said? Has nobody on this board dealt with a crass or dry person? Does everyone have to be sweet and sensitive? Grow a fucking skin people. It's ok to be emotional. It's me versus literally every last person on this whole forum and I'm still here. Been here on and off for 6-7 years since there was a prior MetroJax. God damn, every person I work with in my job is a brutal, dry tell it to your face person. WTF is that not allowed on this forum and is that not Kosher in Jacksonville? It's a forum about ideas and getting shit done, hopefully, not about protecting people's sensitivities and insecurities. If the city were babied as much as people seem to baby this board, then oh wait, the city has been babied for so long and look at the mess it's in. Nobody's insulting posters here, it's all directed presumably at the city, neighborhoods, policies, etc etc. No need to take it personally.
Also, cline and bensays, I was merely responding to the posts above me discussing in excellent detail the now apparent battle and issue residents have with all the new restaurants, the fact that they stay open late and the parking problems they seem to cause. Perhaps you should read other people's posts for context before you just jump on the attack bandwagon.
PS: I will be in Avondale tomorrow morning. I'm coming HOME for the weekend. I spent 18 friggin years in the area, so I think I know it pretty well, and I can post and ASK questions as I have done here.
PPS: Every motherflippin go-getter in NYC, the most serious of all cities, is a badass hardliner. Let's keep the small town sensibilities and sensitivities and the small town mentality out of this forum and work on getting the big city mentality you posters supposedly want, and it starts with cutting the crap.
Simms, I was being sarcastic. Could careless. Anytime someone uses the phrase "as the days go on..." they're being facetious. At least that's what I thought...
And as for my +1000 comment, I was reiterating the fact that while the Avondale shop owners don't want a strip of food vendors, there's plenty of us that don't mind.
Personally, I think the Avondale shop owners need to calm down. So f'ing concerned with maintaining god knows what. I say bring as many restaurants in as possible. We'll sort it out the way it's supposed to be sorted out: if the restaurants suck, they go out of business.
Personally I think you need to ASK each and every shop owner in the strip what they think before you lump all of us together. I personally love the new restaurants. Anything is better than a business that doesn't draw in customers.
The more the better! Egads don't get me started...I had to erase/edit my comments...
QuotePS: I will be in Avondale tomorrow morning. I'm coming HOME for the weekend. I spent 18 friggin years in the area, so I think I know it pretty well, and I can post and ASK questions as I have done here.
Cool man! I look forward to your insight. I'll be in town tomorrow too. PM me if you want to meet up. I prefer early since I have to work. Fox? Let me know.
This is why I keep up on this forum. Love it. Shouting matches, yay :) (attempting to be lighthearted and humorous)
I can try to meet up; I'll PM you.
Someone put me in a room with a citycouncilman we don't like...I could focus my lack of sensibilities to said person, ha.
i am a shop owner in Avondale. And as far as the other merchants they are against everything Sherwin Williams they where against, Mojo's, 7-11, and really anything positive to growth. I have heard the Avondale Merchants Assoc. say "We need to keep large companies out and keep Avondale Small Business only". The truth of the matter is a boarding up building is not helping mine or any other business in the area. Anything that is put in the gas station space like MM is going to thrive and will probally end up doing better that what is in Avondale already. So I'm not really sure that the merchant have any say over both pieces of property are privately owned. And it really is about who can write the bigger check. And MM won, finally no more boarded up gas station and a new guy coming in. And MM is going to bring a customer that would never come to Avondale. BECAUSE THEY HAVE HEARD THAT AVONDALE IS A OVER PRICED, and PRETENTIOUS. And that really needs to change.
^^^Excellent! Also, it's definitely more a boost of confidence in an area when "larger than independents and mom/pops" want to enter a market or submarket. The thing with Avondale is that each building is owned separately. It's difficult if not even possible for any one landlord to have complete say or control over the tenant mix. Once a place like Avondale really gets going, and I mean it will require loosening of all sorts of growth restrictions and anti-growth sentiments, you'll see bigger time landlords and investors scooping up portfolios of these buildings because they'll be able to mold the Shoppes into something highly profitable to them and most likely better for most in the area. Fifth Ave in Naples has always struck me as a good example for both Avondale and San Marco, but it's a real big stretch I think. Perhaps even 5 Points or Homewood in Birmingham, but even there they allow 3-8 floor infill. My company scooped up 28 buildings on Newbury St, and then some more. We also scooped up I think 11 buildings on M Street in Georgetown. We have our investors' bottom lines and the community's best interest simultaneously aligned, if you can believe it. Of course those are the most extreme examples.
Live in Avondale and would prefer a 7-11 to MM. It has to do w/ a healthy mix of stores. I don't need a pizza everyday but there are things that 7-11 offers that can't be purchased anywhere else in the Shoppes.
Quote from: simms3 on April 05, 2012, 06:42:16 PM
2) Holy moly, what's all this coming out about people being upset at all the new restaurants and all the action in the Shoppes and in Avondale? What? If people in Avondale can't take a little more vibrancy, then who the hell can in Jacksonville? And restaurants are doing ok now, much better than retail. Let the restaurants open because there aren't nearly enough shops to go around.
I don't think you are getting any hostility from folks on here. I think MM would do wonderful in that location. I do hope that, as restaurant seating increases, patrons recognize that it is a neighborhood and not a mall parking lot. I live two streets from Monty's/Mojos and we get a lot of folks flying down our street. Had some drunk chick run into my car last Friday night and drive off. Luckily, the JSO caught her.
We purchased in the area because we liked the shops and being close to the action. We still love it. But there has certainly been an increase in people driving like aholes looking for parking spots or flying down backstreets.
QuoteAnd it really is about who can write the bigger check. And MM won, finally no more boarded up gas station and a new guy coming in. And MM is going to bring a customer that would never come to Avondale. BECAUSE THEY HAVE HEARD THAT AVONDALE IS A OVER PRICED, and PRETENTIOUS. And that really needs to change.
Shoppes of Avondale are not the King Street district. While the SofA are concerned with the decision affecting Kickbacks and the parking issue, there will always be compromise. The SofA owners will ultimately not be able to stop MM from coming into the space. If MM uses the gas station for parking, it only affects the Brick employees, since they were leasing the space, but it puts 20-30 more cars on the street, or hopefully gets more people to walk, carpool, or ride their bike (since many of the servers live in the area).
But the SofA is not the King Street district. What Steve and Scott want to do there affects Jim Love and Liz Grenamyer and their stores/offices. When Catering by Liz moved in there, I am sure she had no idea that Kickback's wanted to add a 350 seat addition either. So the same could be said for the mix of retail and restaurants in Avondale. There does need to be a mix, because you cannot have all restaurants and continue to thrive, case in point is Virginia Avenue in Atlanta. The smell of bleach is constant from washing the floors from the night before, and more renters have moved in the area, and more issues with APD, but its a choice for the residents. If residents want more restaurants, the area will change, and we have models to show it.
MM could certainly reconfigure the Benham building, since its owned by her, and then live easily in that space. But there are a lot of merchants who have a lot of GOB attorneys on speed dial and who also have RAP's ear, so this is not going to be quick, painless or easy for MM, depending on what they plan to do and how they plan to operate. Mojos moved in and the fear was bikers, late night events, and other issues, based on what people saw in other locations, and so far, they have been an excellent part of the SofA, time will tell, but I hope a compromise can be made as well with MM to become a welcomed addition to the area.
I love their idea of using the Gas Station as their bar focused on craft beer, outdoor seating, beer garden water feature and the town space as the main dining room and kitchen. Yes MTrain it will be smaller than the other locations.
QuoteValentino plans to keep the 48-year-old, 1,944-square-foot service station and convert it into the restaurant’s bar, where he plans to have 60 beers â€" nearly all craft brews â€" on tap. (That’s a dozen more than his recently expanded Tinseltown location offers.)
Outside the service station building, he plans to have an outdoor beer garden, covered dining area, bike racks and, potentially, a water feature, he said. Those details are yet to be finalized, though.
“I want to preserve the gas station and create a green space,†Valentino said. “When I’m done with it, it will be a focal point of the neighborhood.â€
The bar will be connected to the renovated Emly Benham/’Town building, the restaurant’s main dining room and kitchen.
Valentino expects to seat 200-225 inside the restaurant.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-06/mellow-mushroom-plans-avondale-restaurant
Quote from: thelakelander on April 06, 2012, 08:09:21 PM
QuoteValentino plans to keep the 48-year-old, 1,944-square-foot service station and convert it into the restaurant’s bar, where he plans to have 60 beers â€" nearly all craft brews â€" on tap. (That’s a dozen more than his recently expanded Tinseltown location offers.)
Outside the service station building, he plans to have an outdoor beer garden, covered dining area, bike racks and, potentially, a water feature, he said. Those details are yet to be finalized, though.
“I want to preserve the gas station and create a green space,†Valentino said. “When I’m done with it, it will be a focal point of the neighborhood.â€
The bar will be connected to the renovated Emly Benham/’Town building, the restaurant’s main dining room and kitchen.
Valentino expects to seat 200-225 inside the restaurant.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/423471/gary-mills/2012-04-06/mellow-mushroom-plans-avondale-restaurant
Well this is good news.
Pending RAP review,I like the concept.
MM Landscape/Building preservation,green space,huge beer selection,bike racks......tempting enough to induce compliant behavior,perhaps even sense of futility,acceptance.After all,like many Avondale residents I am joyfully far enough removed from neighborhood retail parking pressures,so why should I care?
We should consider renaming the strip.Way too quaint and clearly outdated.
SofA conjures images of dismissive leisure. We need something more descriptive of the embrace of alcohol," growth".
Quote from: Know Growth on April 07, 2012, 06:25:08 AM
Pending RAP review,I like the concept.
MM Landscape/Building preservation,green space,huge beer selection,bike racks......tempting enough to induce compliant behavior,perhaps even sense of futility,acceptance.After all,like many Avondale residents I am joyfully far enough removed from neighborhood retail parking pressures,so why should I care?
+1.
Alcohol? What's next, pool halls? That's trouble, friends, trouble with a capital "T".
Quote from: Tacachale on April 07, 2012, 09:48:23 AM
Alcohol? What's next, pool halls? That's trouble, friends, trouble with a capital "T".
Hahaha...Stephen and I quote that musical constantly about Jacksonville, glad to see it's not just us...
It looks like this one will be bigger or equal to the size of the Kickkback's project, once the bar/outside seats are included. It's cool that a parking debate won't pop up since they are utilizing existing structures.
well, if the intent is to connect the former Shell station to the former 'town space via a corridor or such, would that not constitute new construction?
Well perhaps they are not putting any seating in the connector.
Considering the buildings are next two each other, its not going to be a significant amount of square footage added to connect them. Thus, complying with the overlay's off-street parking requirements won't be a problem.
QUOTE:
"Outside the service station building, he plans to have an outdoor beer garden, covered dining area, bike racks and, potentially, a water feature, he said. Those details are yet to be finalized, though.
“I want to preserve the gas station and create a green space,†Valentino said. “When I’m done with it, it will be a focal point of the neighborhood.†"
This is very similar to what I was hoping for and advovcating in earlier posts regarding this location, preserving the space, incorporating a water feature, and making it the focal point of the neighborhood. A beautiful fountain surrounded by seating ............ I
If he has a great design team this could really be a huge improvement to that corner, although I was a big fan of 'town and hate to see it close. The bartender was always fun and sold my wife and I cocktails and martini's that we would not normally try.
Quote from: MusicMan on April 08, 2012, 01:49:56 PM
QUOTE:
"Outside the service station building, he plans to have an outdoor beer garden, covered dining area, bike racks and, potentially, a water feature, he said. Those details are yet to be finalized, though.
“I want to preserve the gas station and create a green space,†Valentino said. “When I’m done with it, it will be a focal point of the neighborhood.†"
This is very similar to what I was hoping for and advovcating in earlier posts regarding this location, preserving the space, incorporating a water feature, and making it the focal point of the neighborhood. A beautiful fountain surrounded by seating ............ I
If he has a great design team this could really be a huge improvement to that corner, although I was a big fan of 'town and hate to see it close. Any word regarding 'town moving into another space? What will happen to the high end shoe store, will it stay?
The shoe store is moving too
QuoteI love their idea of using the Gas Station as their bar focused on craft beer, outdoor seating, beer garden water feature and the town space as the main dining room and kitchen. Yes MTrain it will be smaller than the other locations.
It will all come under review from RAP and many of the merchants are already lining up against it. Stay tuned for more.
Talk on the street is that Benham would move, across the street, to the right of the Sushi restaurant and they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now.
By the way, Ginjo Sushi is amazing, and they did not alter one iota outside.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 08, 2012, 06:52:42 PM
QuoteI love their idea of using the Gas Station as their bar focused on craft beer, outdoor seating, beer garden water feature and the town space as the main dining room and kitchen. Yes MTrain it will be smaller than the other locations.
It will all come under review from RAP and many of the merchants are already lining up against it. Stay tuned for more.
Talk on the street is that Benham would move, across the street, to the right of the Sushi restaurant and they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now.
By the way, Ginjo Sushi is amazing, and they did not alter one iota outside.
Please keep us posted on RAP, MM, and Benham. You seem to have your ear to the ground. What did you mean by "they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now."??
On another note, tried Ginjo Sushi the other day, just a few observations:
best sushi I've had in Riverside, hands down, although why these places continue to serve "k"rab boggles my f'ing mind. Also the most expensive sushi I've had in Riverside ($45~ for 2 people, not including tip). Clear soup was weak, rice was clumpy and cold, and the dumplings and ginger dressing were identical to the kind Sake House serves (makes me wonder...same ownership, or both buy from the same mass distributor??). Other than those few quirks (read, downsides), I still think it's the best around, and will continue to go there. The ambiance is top tier.
Didn't mean to hijack the thread, sorry! But felt it was a good place to throw it, since Mtrain mentioned it, and this is a thread about anything to do with SoA and the accompanying businesses.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 07, 2012, 08:38:10 PM
Considering the buildings are next two each other, its not going to be a significant amount of square footage added to connect them. Thus, complying with the overlay's off-street parking requirements won't be a problem.
However,even if Overlay compliant, any significant expanded SofA seating could increase parking pressure,adverse impacts on another key Overlay component- Residential.
At the conclusion of Overlay proceedings,RAP stated that there were elements RAP would have liked but did not get.This a gesture of acknowledgement of consensus,short on publicaly profiling specific loss or disappointment.
Perhaps unfolding events will reveal latent defects,needs.
We hear talk of Overlay "tweak" if not absolute uprising from various opposing outlooks.
There have been hints to SofA MM since at least March.There must have been either some collaborative engagement between RAP and MM and/or assumptions to proceed,announce.
Interesting that such current growth pressures,interest is converging on Avondale and RAP.
There is of course a long history of such pressures on the RAP neighborhood and organization with various outcome,in fact much expansion ,each episode contributing towards a certain stance if you will.Had Downtown not been in such a state of decline and malaise during the past decades Riverside Avondale may have faced transformation rendering a much diferent neighborhood than what we enjoy and use today.
Avondale,where even a "Best Place" certification can prove cause for alarm, is where "it" is at;now tied to Downtown aspirations, such growth energy seemingly can not be funneled to Downtown or even a few hundred feet west of Roosevelt Blvd.
No doubt there are worse problems facing communities and neighborhoods both Idyllic and Not So Idyllic.
And there are too many examples of Idyllic morphing to Not So.
My thoughts,submitted for Gladiatorial response,shred,insight.
Onward!
QuotePlease keep us posted on RAP, MM, and Benham. You seem to have your ear to the ground. What did you mean by "they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now."??
Ben Says - I heard this from some of the owners of SofA as well as from some friends who know Benham personally. There are other issues going on, that need not be public on this board, but Benham is in the driver's seat and the space across the street from her, to the right of the Sushi is available and waiting for someone to expand it. The fact that it is recessed from the street, and that the space can be altered so that the storefront is moved closer to the street is the fact that I was trying to make. In the end, the city would prefer to have storefronts that are uniform along St. Johns. Peacock was only there for a month, no one knew she was open for business because no one can see the storefront unless you look right at it, is one argument I am sure Benham will use for her justification.
As far as ear to the floor, just good friends with many owners and with real estate in the area too, I too want to make sure that there will be a balance of restaurants, shops, and solutions for the cars coming into the area. I really want the city to look to lower the speed limit in that area, between the brick crosswalks from each end, down to 20 MPH, and add flashing yellow lights to make it so that anyone crossing the street has the right of way, by state law, like they do in Georgia. Everyone should allow people to walk across the street in a crosswalk without fear of being run over. I'd like to see a special emphasis in protecting the patrons in the area. If you are in a hurry, take Park Street and run over someone's cat, but on St. Johns slow down and bring some patience.
Quoteto make it so that anyone crossing the street has the right of way, by state law, like they do in Georgia. Everyone should allow people to walk across the street in a crosswalk without fear of being run over.
That already is a state law in Florida and is in practice in places like St Augustine and Sarasota. All FDOT needs to do is put up signs and paint the necessary yellow lines for the crosswalk.
fieldafm - Thanks, I'll mention this to my neighbor Jim Love. I'll see if I can find the law in the books and this should help in the Avondale area.
I did send the info to Jim, here is the link if anyone is interested in the Pedestrian laws in the State of Florida:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Pedestrian%20LEGuide-08.pdf (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Pedestrian%20LEGuide-08.pdf)
and hand out citations to the ever so many jaywalkers!!
Thank you everyone for your advice and well wishes. I may be working for them when they open up. I haven't read anything about it, has anyone else? Does anyone know when they plan to open?
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
fieldafm - Thanks, I'll mention this to my neighbor Jim Love. I'll see if I can find the law in the books and this should help in the Avondale area.
I did send the info to Jim, here is the link if anyone is interested in the Pedestrian laws in the State of Florida:
http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Pedestrian%20LEGuide-08.pdf (http://www.dot.state.fl.us/safety/ped_bike/brochures/pdf/Pedestrian%20LEGuide-08.pdf)
I have a ton of pictures, but obviously not home right now to post them, but here's an example of how it looks in St Armands Square (which Avondale should REALLY study especially in regards to all the talk about parking permits-which I still think is a long way off from being needed)
(http://www.worldofstock.com/slides/TRO2722.jpg)
Excellent picture, it is a start. It would be good for the area to get these setup NOW, before the traffic really ramps up for whatever happens in the space. Something will happen and these signs are needed now, along with a drop in the speed limit. Can't put up humps because the ambulances use the road to St. Vincent's.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 11:29:07 AM
QuotePlease keep us posted on RAP, MM, and Benham. You seem to have your ear to the ground. What did you mean by "they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now."??
Ben Says -There are other issues going on, that need not be public on this board, but Benham is in the driver's seat and the space across the street from her, to the right of the Sushi is available and waiting for someone to expand it. The fact that it is recessed from the street, and that the space can be altered so that the storefront is moved closer to the street is the fact that I was trying to make. In the end, the city would prefer to have storefronts that are uniform along St. Johns. Peacock was only there for a month, no one knew she was open for business because no one can see the storefront unless you look right at it, is one argument I am sure Benham will use for her justification.
As far as ear to the floor"..............with real estate in the area too, I too want to make sure that there will be.......solutions for the cars coming into the area. ........ If you are in a hurry, take Park Street and run over someone's cat
Indeed,best to post less. MJ Light!
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 12:04:02 PM
fieldafm - Thanks, I'll mention this to my neighbor Jim Love. I'll see if I can find the law in the books and this should help in the Avondale area.
Thanks for the help well connected presence person.
Probably best to post less. MJ Light.
At some point area events will finally play out,reveal in front of full City Council vote.
From the Business Journal, this week's edition:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html)
Now we need to find a tenant for Monty's.
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 12, 2012, 03:39:52 PM
From the Business Journal, this week's edition:
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html)
Now we need to find a tenant for Monty's.
How many square feet? Is there a fully equipped kitchen in there?
Jax Biz Journal: http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html?s=image_gallery (http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/blog/2012/04/slideshow-avondale-merchants-react-to.html?s=image_gallery)
Slideshow with 6 SoA merchants giving their take on MM coming in.
Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2012, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Know Growth on April 09, 2012, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 11:29:07 AM
QuotePlease keep us posted on RAP, MM, and Benham. You seem to have your ear to the ground. What did you mean by "they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now."??
Ben Says -There are other issues going on, that need not be public on this board, but Benham is in the driver's seat and the space across the street from her, to the right of the Sushi is available and waiting for someone to expand it. The fact that it is recessed from the street, and that the space can be altered so that the storefront is moved closer to the street is the fact that I was trying to make. In the end, the city would prefer to have storefronts that are uniform along St. Johns. Peacock was only there for a month, no one knew she was open for business because no one can see the storefront unless you look right at it, is one argument I am sure Benham will use for her justification.
As far as ear to the floor"..............with real estate in the area too, I too want to make sure that there will be.......solutions for the cars coming into the area. ........ If you are in a hurry, take Park Street and run over someone's cat
Indeed,best to post less. MJ Light!
indeed.
I thought you said there was a glut, a giant oversupply of restaurants that was threatening to destroy riverside, north miami? What gives?
This side track all 'ya got?
Don't recall Riverside focus.
I discovered this week the new SofA Sushi venture is still hoping for more customers,and from what I have observed during four visits during their stated peak times,there is plenty of seating available.
Hope it all works out,full seating,overflow parking and finally,the saving grace. Glad I didn't buy a house on Pine Street!
The physical space and influence of SofA has stood distinctly less compromised by seductions and attractions of the market.
We're dangling between past and future.
Perhaps we should look to MJ advertisement campaigns for hint to emerging divisive neighborhood episode.
(I'm telling 'ya now folks,we got Trouble right here in River City! Trouble....I mean Trouble!....that starts with "T" that rhymes with "G" & "P" and that stands for "GastroPub"!)
It's all interesting-glad you have more skin in this than I do.
Post les
I spoke with John Valentino yesterday and Friday at a weekend event. He was excited to see the progress so far, and he did point out that at the Beach, he is only granted 99 spots. So that location saw Salt Life move in after him, taking away spots, then the shops behind have thrived as well. Everywhere they go, the merchants end up with more traffic and more money. I would tend to agree with this.
The interesting thing I see will be when the restaurant is open, will Underwood's see that same increase? We did agree that Monty's West Inn has to be the next project taken over, although there are still spots open for space there in the SofA, but with MM coming in, I suspect that they will not stay vacant for long. Please, no more yogurt shops...
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 15, 2012, 12:47:49 PM
I spoke with John Valentino yesterday and Friday at a weekend event. He was excited to see the progress so far, and he did point out that at the Beach, he is only granted 99 spots. So that location saw Salt Life move in after him, taking away spots, then the shops behind have thrived as well. Everywhere they go, the merchants end up with more traffic and more money. I would tend to agree with this.
The interesting thing I see will be when the restaurant is open, will Underwood's see that same increase? We did agree that Monty's West Inn has to be the next project taken over, although there are still spots open for space there in the SofA, but with MM coming in, I suspect that they will not stay vacant for long. Please, no more yogurt shops...
So where will he get 99 spots or even half of that in Avondale?
^Presumably this would be partly mitigated by alternative solutions such as bike racks. It would not come close to 90 spots but the Shoppes are much more pedestrian friendly than the strip mall where the Beaches restaurant is.
Correction- I meant *not* come close to 90.
METRO AVONDALE
Quote from: stephendare on April 12, 2012, 09:25:56 PM
Quote from: Know Growth on April 12, 2012, 09:04:51 PM
Quote from: stephendare on April 09, 2012, 10:18:06 PM
Quote from: Know Growth on April 09, 2012, 09:57:51 PM
Quote from: mtraininjax on April 09, 2012, 11:29:07 AM
QuotePlease keep us posted on RAP, MM, and Benham. You seem to have your ear to the ground. What did you mean by "they can move the front of the shops to the sidewalk, yes, another RAP issue, but Benham has been there and done that and it would make the stores all look the same instead of the oddity there is there now."??
Ben Says -There are other issues going on, that need not be public on this board, but Benham is in the driver's seat and the space across the street from her, to the right of the Sushi is available and waiting for someone to expand it. The fact that it is recessed from the street, and that the space can be altered so that the storefront is moved closer to the street is the fact that I was trying to make. In the end, the city would prefer to have storefronts that are uniform along St. Johns. Peacock was only there for a month, no one knew she was open for business because no one can see the storefront unless you look right at it, is one argument I am sure Benham will use for her justification.
As far as ear to the floor"..............with real estate in the area too, I too want to make sure that there will be.......solutions for the cars coming into the area. ........ If you are in a hurry, take Park Street and run over someone's cat
Indeed,best to post less. MJ Light!
indeed.
I thought you said there was a glut, a giant oversupply of restaurants that was threatening to destroy riverside, north miami? What gives?
This side track all 'ya got?
Don't recall Riverside focus.
I discovered this week the new SofA Sushi venture is still hoping for more customers,and from what I have observed during four visits during their stated peak times,there is plenty of seating available.
Hope it all works out,full seating,overflow parking and finally,the saving grace. Glad I didn't buy a house on Pine Street!
The physical space and influence of SofA has stood distinctly less compromised by seductions and attractions of the market.
We're dangling between past and future.
Perhaps we should look to MJ advertisement campaigns for hint to emerging divisive neighborhood episode.
(I'm telling 'ya now folks,we got Trouble right here in River City! Trouble....I mean Trouble!....that starts with "T" that rhymes with "G" & "P" and that stands for "GastroPub"!)
It's all interesting-glad you have more skin in this than I do.
Post les
Lol, Mike. This is where you look like a tremendous ass.
Metrojacksonville doesn't run any paid advertisements from any of the businesses in the riverside avondale district. Nor have we over the past two years. Much less any 'campaigns'.
I think this pretty much settles the issue of your credibility.
Although I wouldn't be surprised to find any in the future. MetroJacksonville is an excellent source of public awareness and information. Although in the case of many of your posts, misinformation can also be found here. Luckily its dialogue journalism, and your mis statements are usually caught pretty quickly.
Any more bizarre theories you want to float?
There is a jog in the Outer Beltway as "credibility" testimony,not that any need be lodged here,MJ simply an experiment.
Avonale bizarre theory only after a period of time,awareness and information not typically gathered here.
Perhaps nothing!High Awareness.
If Avondale is damaged,Overlay as metaphor,follow up on Carl Hiaasen "Jacksonville Millionth Mania"/hard copy edition.
ONward
QuoteSo where will he get 99 spots or even half of that in Avondale?
Kay, John does not need to find 99 spots. RAP will cave as usual, and there will be posturing, but the deal will go through. Too much money involved for MM and the others there. So you have to park further away, no big deal.
What are they going to say about not enough density for streetcar in Riverside now? The longer the people of Riverside wait to start screaming for it the longer it will take to get there.
Quote from: JeffreyS on April 16, 2012, 12:45:48 PM
What are they going to say about not enough density for streetcar in Riverside now? The longer the people of Riverside wait to start screaming for it the longer it will take to get there.
But would people ride in a streetcar if given the option? I'm not saying they wouldn't (and I'm honestly curious), but Jacksonvillians (and Floridians, among others) love their cars and would need quite an incentive not to drive them. I think car ownership is a big deal to a lot of people. And there is a stigma attached to public transportation.
I think the stigma can be removed over time, but it will only die off when more and more people start riding public transportation. I can see people maybe jumping on a streetcar to go to a local bar or something, but I don't see there being enough ridership to make it feasible.
Quote from: Adam W on April 16, 2012, 02:31:54 PM
But would people ride in a streetcar if given the option? I'm not saying they wouldn't (and I'm honestly curious), but Jacksonvillians (and Floridians, among others) love their cars and would need quite an incentive not to drive them. I think car ownership is a big deal to a lot of people. And there is a stigma attached to public transportation.
and the same things were said about Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and Charlotte....and all have shown that transit can work
^Streetcar, other forms of public transit, and the feasibility of them have been discussed all over this site for years. As far as it relates to this particular development, Riverside-Avondale is approaching a level of population and density that requires action before traffic congestion becomes a crippling problem. Improving public transit is one option. Others include demolishing structures for parking lots, and artificially restricting infill to stave off density. Which is preferable?
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 16, 2012, 03:01:04 PM
Quote from: Adam W on April 16, 2012, 02:31:54 PM
But would people ride in a streetcar if given the option? I'm not saying they wouldn't (and I'm honestly curious), but Jacksonvillians (and Floridians, among others) love their cars and would need quite an incentive not to drive them. I think car ownership is a big deal to a lot of people. And there is a stigma attached to public transportation.
and the same things were said about Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and Charlotte....and all have shown that transit can work
and....Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami.....
Understanding how transit actually works is one of those areas of urban living where Jacksonville is truly a decade or two behind its peers.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 16, 2012, 04:51:13 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on April 16, 2012, 03:01:04 PM
Quote from: Adam W on April 16, 2012, 02:31:54 PM
But would people ride in a streetcar if given the option? I'm not saying they wouldn't (and I'm honestly curious), but Jacksonvillians (and Floridians, among others) love their cars and would need quite an incentive not to drive them. I think car ownership is a big deal to a lot of people. And there is a stigma attached to public transportation.
and the same things were said about Dallas, Houston, Phoenix, and Charlotte....and all have shown that transit can work
and....Atlanta, Salt Lake City, Norfolk, San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami.....
Understanding how transit actually works is one of those areas of urban living where Jacksonville is truly a decade or two behind its peers.
I'll have to accept your word for it. (That's not a pissy statement, even if it reads that way online). But I am a cynic and I personally think downtown will need to grow its population (of residents or businesses) before people start riding public transport in worthwhile numbers.
I accept, though, that I am not qualified (so to speak) and I'm pretty sure you are. So I'm not saying you're wrong - just that I have doubts or reservations.
(I hope you're right though).
Well that is the story rail critics have tried to sell you and I to keep the sprawl going. I'll bet Charlotte is thankful they didn't wait for density to reach some magic number before they started manipulating their own future. To me that is what it is all about you can wait for the future and just try to figure out how to make the best of it. Or we can implement the type of policies and infrastructure to mastermind our own future.
We have great suburbs, rural areas, office parks, industrial areas, ports, beaches, the river, recreational areas and even great historical neighborhoods. What we don't have is a great or even mediocre urban area and this community deserves to have that as well. We need the tax revenue boost a great urban area would give. Behind a miracle upgrade to education transit is probably the biggest QOL improvement we could make.
You'll be hard pressed to find an American city that "grew" its way into density without a pedestrian scale transportation system to get them there. The concept of a community needing a certain level of density for rail is just as false as the concept of downtown needing 10,000 residents for vibrancy. Both are numbers plucked out of thin air. In both cases, both rail and downtown vibrancy can become reality without hitting those imaginary benchmarks.
I don't blame people for believing those figures though because politicians have been making a living selling those excuses for a long time.