Are these not selling because of the tight credit market or because they're overpriced? I'm thinking of buying one.
I'm not a real estate expert by any means. But I think whenever you have an unconventional project like this it takes a specific type of buyer to want in. There are few direct comps to what this project provides so I think it would be difficult to call them overpriced.
Quote from: JFman00 on March 24, 2012, 11:14:40 AM
Are these not selling because of the tight credit market or because they're overpriced? I'm thinking of buying one.
I'm thinking of renting one, but nobody is offering! Beautiful building and love being so close to Bold Bean, Bakery Moderne, the Bike shop, and 13 Gypsies!
It's within walking distance to Five Points and Park Place/Walkers also, isn't it?
Yeah^
I wonder how many units are filled? Its beautiful & unique (I'd live there in a second), but they need people in them. I've never once seen any activity over there whatsoever. :(
Quote from: peestandingup on March 24, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
I wonder how many units are filled? Its beautiful & unique (I'd live there in a second), but they need people in them. I've never once seen any activity over there whatsoever. :(
Haven't seen anyone even on the premises, let alone a light on inside. Go to that Stockton strip quite often...and yeah, like you, I'd move in a second. I wish someone would buy a few and rent them out at reasonable prices. I believe easing people in via renting, instead of waiting until people start buying, would be the right way to go.
Quote from: ben says on March 24, 2012, 01:14:02 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 24, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
I wonder how many units are filled? Its beautiful & unique (I'd live there in a second), but they need people in them. I've never once seen any activity over there whatsoever. :(
Haven't seen anyone even on the premises, let alone a light on inside. Go to that Stockton strip quite often...and yeah, like you, I'd move in a second. I wish someone would buy a few and rent them out at reasonable prices. I believe easing people in via renting, instead of waiting until people start buying, would be the right way to go.
So do I. I think eventually the owners are gonna have to start getting creative in this down market to get bodies into these units. Renting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
Quote from: peestandingup on March 24, 2012, 01:26:53 PM
Quote from: ben says on March 24, 2012, 01:14:02 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on March 24, 2012, 12:48:27 PM
I wonder how many units are filled? Its beautiful & unique (I'd live there in a second), but they need people in them. I've never once seen any activity over there whatsoever. :(
Haven't seen anyone even on the premises, let alone a light on inside. Go to that Stockton strip quite often...and yeah, like you, I'd move in a second. I wish someone would buy a few and rent them out at reasonable prices. I believe easing people in via renting, instead of waiting until people start buying, would be the right way to go.
So do I. I think eventually the owners are gonna have to start getting creative in this down market to get bodies into these units. Renting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
Count me in. Please keep me updated if you hear anything.
QuoteAre these not selling because of the tight credit market or because they're overpriced? I'm thinking of buying one.
Financing for condos has been tough, due to the number on the market in NE Florida, and the number having issues with HOA, people defaulting on the loans, loss of HOA funds to keep the property going, etc.
I think 2-3 have been sold. Its a hard area to sell into, there are great shops there at Stockton, but its still a tough area, and the Weavers still own the land across from 13 Gypsies and nothing has been started to create more retail. I am hoping someone buys it and rents the units out, to at least get people into the area. They are not for rent, still for sale, and I think Ms. Weaver kicked out the site agents and may be doing this work herself.
Everbank is offering good financing for this project, so you're not seeing the same kind of credit restrictions on the Gorrie as you do for other projects around town.
QuoteRenting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
That's the worst thing you could do if you want people to buy them. If over 30% become rentals, it's going to become difficult to find a lender that will want to finance a mortgage for you.
At 4% fixed for 30 years wouldn't it be cheaper to own? Primo condos/apartments in Riverside are expensive. Also, if you buy now you get the "pick of the litter", so to speak. Plus 10 years break on your RE taxes.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 26, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
Everbank is offering good financing for this project, so you're not seeing the same kind of credit restrictions on the Gorrie as you do for other projects around town.
QuoteRenting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
That's the worst thing you could do if you want people to buy them. If over 30% become rentals, it's going to become difficult to find a lender that will want to finance a mortgage for you.
Vystar is offering 5k in closing costs. I believe 5 units have been sold. My concern is what happens if the 2 year window passes for FHA approval, and the Weavers decide to start renting it out? Would I be able to resell 10 years down the road?
Quote from: JFman00 on March 26, 2012, 10:15:20 AM
Quote from: fieldafm on March 26, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
Everbank is offering good financing for this project, so you're not seeing the same kind of credit restrictions on the Gorrie as you do for other projects around town.
QuoteRenting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
That's the worst thing you could do if you want people to buy them. If over 30% become rentals, it's going to become difficult to find a lender that will want to finance a mortgage for you.
Vystar is offering 5k in closing costs. I believe 5 units have been sold. My concern is what happens if the 2 year window passes for FHA approval, and the Weavers decide to start renting it out? Would I be able to resell 10 years down the road?
When do those 5 buyers move in? Walk by everyday, yet to see a single light on.
Are you sure it's $5000?
These are the cheapest condo's in Riverside. Waterfront is way more expensive
(as a general rule) and have huge monthlies. The JG has a reasonable monthly that includes a decent workout room. Resale is difficult to predict 10 years out but I think you have a better than 50% chance of being in a good place for resale.
They are alread 'In.' I see a small cluster of cars parked on the side opposite Bold Bean. Those closing all happened last year.
Quote from: fieldafm on March 26, 2012, 10:02:26 AM
Everbank is offering good financing for this project, so you're not seeing the same kind of credit restrictions on the Gorrie as you do for other projects around town.
QuoteRenting a good chuck of them would be a way, with maybe a rent to own option.
That's the worst thing you could do if you want people to buy them. If over 30% become rentals, it's going to become difficult to find a lender that will want to finance a mortgage for you.
And people aren't buying them, so, yeah. You want them occupied or vacant?
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 26, 2012, 09:54:40 AM
QuoteAre these not selling because of the tight credit market or because they're overpriced? I'm thinking of buying one.
Financing for condos has been tough, due to the number on the market in NE Florida, and the number having issues with HOA, people defaulting on the loans, loss of HOA funds to keep the property going, etc.
I think 2-3 have been sold. Its a hard area to sell into, there are great shops there at Stockton, but its still a tough area, and the Weavers still own the land across from 13 Gypsies and nothing has been started to create more retail. I am hoping someone buys it and rents the units out, to at least get people into the area. They are not for rent, still for sale, and I think Ms. Weaver kicked out the site agents and may be doing this work herself.
Site agent still in place. I've been told they've secured financing through Vystar, Everbank and BBVA Compass. Was told a major issue in getting the units sold is young couples not having enough cash for a 20% downpayment. Same story with Churchwell Lofts.
Anyone able to offer a comparison with 1661 Riverside and the Churchwell Lofts? I have not seen any of the former, and only saw one of the latter. I'm particularly keen on soundproofing, as I intend to buy a piano.
On a side note, the 51% owner-occupancy requirement for financing is ridiculous.
QuoteOn a side note, the 51% owner-occupancy requirement for financing is ridiculous.
Well, if you take a look at valuations in complexes that are majority non-owner occupied.. you'll see these units are the most severly depressed in terms of prices and market values aren't stabilizing in these projects. The lender doesn't want a loan that's secured by a worthless asset. If it was your money, you wouldn't want to give someone a personal loan when the only asset you can secure your investment with isn't worth the paper it's printed on.
Quotetold a major issue in getting the units sold is young couples not having enough cash for a 20% downpayment.
I was of the understanding that Everbank's package is a first/second that doesn't require 20% down?
QuoteAnd people aren't buying them, so, yeah. You want them occupied or vacant?
Clearly they want to sell them, not lease them. I can assure you the people that have bought the units don't want the building full of renters as they'll never be able to sell the homes they have bought and their HOA fees will skyrocket accordingly.
Gorrie is actually a great value at it's current pricing levels and fee structure.
I tried to buy in the complex I'm living in now (64% renter-occupied), but was unable as there was no financing and I could buy in cash only. From what I understand, the prices are so low *because* FHA/Fannie/Freddie rules mean that people can't finance, only buy in cash.
QuoteI was of the understanding that Everbank's package is a first/second that doesn't require 20% down?
I had not been told about that. I intend on putting at least 20% down on anything I buy so it's a moot point for me.
QuoteI tried to buy in the complex I'm living in now (64% renter-occupied), but was unable as there was no financing and I could buy in cash only. From what I understand, the prices are so low *because* FHA/Fannie/Freddie rules mean that people can't finance, only buy in cash.
Once you get to that point, yes it is a vicious cycle that's hard to get out of.
Typically how it works would be that first the complex has a rash of foreclosures(prices become depressed accordingly), the renters move in en masse, HOA fees go up, more foreclosures happen(the financial incentive would be to give your house up as you now feel you're unlikely to sell it for what it's worth over the next 5 years, plus your HOA fees have now increased 30-40% to make up for all the foreclosures-making your mortgage payment not as affordable as before) and then once you get to that point it is indeed difficult to get financing... which further depresses pricing.
Welcome to the convuluted world of real estate 2012 post-meltdown.
Which is exactly why you want to buy high quality condos like the Gorrie, and not all the cheap junk and muffed-up apartment conversions that littered the Southside market over the last 10 years.
Is the Gorrie an FHA approved property? The building has to be FHA approved to be able to get FHA financing. Same with VA. The lofts at 1951 Market had to go through a process with FHA to be able to purchase them with FHA loans. With FHA loans first time buyers can buy a loft with 3.5% down. That is how several of the lofts at 1951 Market have been purchased: FHA 3.5%down. That has really helped me, the list agent move, them.
Condos require a lot of due diligence these days so be sure to look at the financial info and other condo docs when you go to contract. John Gorrie is new construction so you have a 15 day right of rescission period to do just that. Amanda is right about FHA financing. If it's approved for that it should help sales because not that many people can afford to go conventional financing these days.
Not speaking to these condos specifically because I've not been in them, sales is an indicator of what might come up in the future. Not enough sales and the developer might go rental. Not enough sales and the developer decides to cut prices of future units.
And when you look at the budget be sure to see what expenses could have big increases - insurance, amenities, or whatever. You might want to compare those costs to other condos in the area as well.
All that being said, I always remind buyers that you are first of all buying a HOME, and second an investment, so numbers aren't everything.
Quote from: JFman00 on March 26, 2012, 11:10:36 AM
Quote from: mtraininjax on March 26, 2012, 09:54:40 AM
QuoteAre these not selling because of the tight credit market or because they're overpriced? I'm thinking of buying one.
Financing for condos has been tough, due to the number on the market in NE Florida, and the number having issues with HOA, people defaulting on the loans, loss of HOA funds to keep the property going, etc.
I think 2-3 have been sold. Its a hard area to sell into, there are great shops there at Stockton, but its still a tough area, and the Weavers still own the land across from 13 Gypsies and nothing has been started to create more retail. I am hoping someone buys it and rents the units out, to at least get people into the area. They are not for rent, still for sale, and I think Ms. Weaver kicked out the site agents and may be doing this work herself.
Site agent still in place. I've been told they've secured financing through Vystar, Everbank and BBVA Compass. Was told a major issue in getting the units sold is young couples not having enough cash for a 20% downpayment. Same story with Churchwell Lofts.
Anyone able to offer a comparison with 1661 Riverside and the Churchwell Lofts? I have not seen any of the former, and only saw one of the latter. I'm particularly keen on soundproofing, as I intend to buy a piano.
I'm a recent unit buyer in 1661, so I'll try to address some of your questions. For more complex questions about financing I can refer you to the broker I used, who was invaluable to me.
My purchase was a short sale and required 25% down. The new rules for FHA financing are quite difficult for condos these days to qualify for (between occupancy requirements and owner tenant/rent ratio requirements, plus 1661 throws commercial space into the mix which I think also enters into the equation). In other words, 1661 was not FHA approved at the time, and I don't know if it is at this point, although the various ratios have improved quite a bit in the past few months as foreclosures and short sale inventory has been working itself through. I think the sticking point has been the rental/owner occupant ratio.
So bottom line, as of early last year when I was involved in the process, lenders were not jumping at making loans for units. I got one a) because I was not intending to use it as an investment property or rental, b) I could swing 25% down and probably c) because I had a paid off house worth more than the loan amount as collateral. I don't know how much more difficult it would have been without those three factors in my favor.
As for soundproofing, 1661 has concrete block walls between units and the floors are concrete. Now, I'm sure you could make a nuisance of yourself if you tried hard enough, but for a muilti unit living space, I'm not sure you'd find too many places offering significantly better sound isolation, although they may be out there. That said, I wouldn't go hammering out a bunch of Willie "The Lion" Smith stride at 1 in the morning. We do have noise restrictions (I think between 10PM and 7AM -- my neighbor and I are pretty quiet so it's never come up). As for how you would maneuver anything larger than an upright into one of these places, I don't know. It might be a challenge on anything above ground level.
With my unit, 95% of the noise is from outside, as one sort of has to take as a given with the location of 1661 in the neighborhood (on my side you have CSX trains, the Fuller Warren, and the truck they use to, I don't know, I guess recharge the MRI trailer at the imaging center next door. On the Margaret Street side you've got a significant amount of traffic, and vendor deliveries to the businesses, which the Association has gone to considerable length to get the commercial tenants to schedule for 7 AM or later).
Thanks for the info gsb. It's kind of a moot point since the place is sold out, but it seems like the most comparable building in the area.
My understanding is that since the Gorrie is classified as a new construction, it has to sell 30% of its units within a year of completion, or 50% of its units within 2 years of completion (June/July 2011?) to qualify under FHA rules.
I've started looking at buying a 4-plex in Orange Park or some other rental building purely for income instead, then renting a nicer place with some of the proceeds. Seems to make more sense financially, especially considering the longest I'll only be in Jax 3-6 years. The Gorrie units are so gorgeous though...
I hope the Weavers are successful with selling these units. They did an amazing job on renovation of the School, and I hope the market will turn to their favor, or at least they get lucky and can sell them.
Seeing this example makes me better appreciate the struggle with rehabbing the School down the street.
John Gorrie: financing by Everbank with 5% down.
Churchwell Lofts: Amazing spaces, absolutely no soundproofing whatsoever.
1661 Riverside: I think at least one or two units available. Resales, shortsales.
The Chelsea: One unit available, just went under contract, short sale.
Last 12 months, 38 SOLD condos in Riv-Avo-Ortega. ONLY 3 WERE BELOW $100,000. 15 were over $200,000,
4 of those at $600K or above.
If you need a quiet unit pick a corner top floor unit, or ask the sales folks if there is a unit with no neighbors.
Also, JG has some neat 2 story lofted units with 35 foot ceilings and cool fan windows.....
Can anyone explain the success of 1661? Is it location and location only?
Success of 1661 is probably because it was the only major and still is the only major project of its type in the whole darn city, and its location is great. Inventory is so limited and so low you would think JG would be doing better, but it's not the case. My mother is an agent in the Avondale Prudential office and frequently acts as site agent for JG. I haven't asked her about it, but I could. She has also done Peninsula and other condo developments around town - maybe it's time I asked.
The prices are super cheap for what you get, and that area is a very quiet peaceful area and you have access to 13 Gypsies/Bold Bean - convenient.
In 12 months only 38 condos in 3 large neighborhoods sold. That's not a really good sign. You can bet many were resales at Villa Riva (my parents have pondered that building) and the condos along the river in Avondale, Ortega, and Riverside. The fact that only 4 were over "600K" is also telling. People blast me for pointing out that Jacksonville is not a wealthy city - it's not. If people are having a hard time putting down 5-20% for a $150K 2 bedroom in JG, it's either because they don't have enough money or there aren't enough people who want the urban condo lifestyle or loft lifestyle in Jacksonville. Either way does not bode well in the long run for projects like the 2 proposed in Brooklyn or any urban projects for that matter.
Also, per loan covenants and per just operational sense, the developer usually covers the HOA deficit until sold out. It's not like because there are only 3 people living there they must pay $10,000/month each to cover the unsold units - and the lender may only do so as part of a draw on a construction loan. It just depends.
Aside from any issues with the units themselves, or the location (which I think is good, though will only appeal to people who can stand living near some rundown houses), the place has a massive yard with mature trees all around it. I would think it would be good for kids, too. Single mom with 1-2 kids or newly weds with a baby...seems like a decent fit.
QuoteI've started looking at buying a 4-plex in Orange Park or some other rental building purely for income instead, then renting a nicer place with some of the proceeds. Seems to make more sense financially, especially considering the longest I'll only be in Jax 3-6 years
Buying a quad and using the income, especially if you will only be here for a few years is a great idea. If you aren't paying cash for the building you can live in one of the units as well to help pay your own mortgage down while you are here . You can continue to lease it once you leave and have income for as long as you want, great long term investment.
QuoteCan anyone explain the success of 1661? Is it location and location only
I think a lot has to do with location but it was also a different market when they were first for sale. When they were first for sale, I was working for Lifestyles Realtors in Riverside across the street who represented 1661 initially. When they were first released the market was quite different and that had a lot to do with it.
There was a also a dedicated site person and the units were in MLS. MLS dumps into hundreds of other real estate websites, including yahoo, trulia, zillow, etc.
Plus, the area has just continued to grow right there (granted not everyone likes the congestion there). So some is location, some is the fact it was a different market initially, some is the way it was marketed.
I heard a few years ago that some buyers at 1661 were unhappy with the finishes - has anyone else heard anything about that or was some of that fixed?
And might I point out there are some obstacles facing Jacksonville to urbanizing. Your transplant from Long Island just sold his tiny house for $895K and is moving down. He's moving from a much more urban place with old established town centers and trains into the city. He may be moving from something similar to JG without a yard and without mature live oaks all around it. When he comes down, he's going to choose between 2 lifestyles:
1) He'll want to be in the city. He can afford 10 units at JG, but would never move there. Why live in a smaller space when in Jacksonville he can afford a mansion or 3 bedroom luxury condo in the city? And who ever heard of mansions with acre yards "in the city" in the first place? This is something virtually all sunbelt cities offer that northern cities don't, and mansions in northern cities start at $10M.
2) He's coming from Long Island. Why the hell would he live "in the city" when a) there is no city, and b) there is a beach? He's moving to the beach.
2A) If he has kids and does not want to live in a mansion in the city, he'll move to a gated community in ICW or SJC. He's moving out of the cold and extreme taxes and congestion, so of course he'll want the opposite of what he has put up with so long, and he believes it is best for his wife and kids.
The types of people who move to JG have to be local types and 1st time home buyers. It just has to be. Maybe some transplant artists who are priced out of larger cities. I just worry there is an extreme dearth of buyers of urban condos and renters of urban units, most of which have to be priced above what Jax can afford. Atlanta just upped its pricing of new construction intown apartments to minimum $2/SF/mo - base, which means luxury apartments are going to have to be a lot more if new construction. That's a minimum of $2Kish for a 2 bedroom for all new construction (which includes a lot of rehab).
Quote from: avs on March 27, 2012, 08:10:54 AM
I heard a few years ago that some buyers at 1661 were unhappy with the finishes - has anyone else heard anything about that or was some of that fixed?
Have heard this.
If you bought at 1661 Riverside in the first 2 years then you are most likely seriously upside down on your loan, so I am not sure I would qualify that as a "success ."
Now units there go for right at $200,000, when they were almost double that (as I recall) when it came on the market.
Perhaps renting 20% of the units at JG would be a good idea. Get some warm bodies in there, but not too many
in order to allow prospective buyers to continue to get financing.
Quote from: simms3 on March 27, 2012, 08:03:30 AM
Success of 1661 is probably because it was the only major and still is the only major project of its type in the whole darn city, and its location is great. Inventory is so limited and so low you would think JG would be doing better, but it's not the case. My mother is an agent in the Avondale Prudential office and frequently acts as site agent for JG. I haven't asked her about it, but I could. She has also done Peninsula and other condo developments around town - maybe it's time I asked.
The prices are super cheap for what you get, and that area is a very quiet peaceful area and you have access to 13 Gypsies/Bold Bean - convenient.
In 12 months only 38 condos in 3 large neighborhoods sold. That's not a really good sign. You can bet many were resales at Villa Riva (my parents have pondered that building) and the condos along the river in Avondale, Ortega, and Riverside. The fact that only 4 were over "600K" is also telling. People blast me for pointing out that Jacksonville is not a wealthy city - it's not. If people are having a hard time putting down 5-20% for a $150K 2 bedroom in JG, it's either because they don't have enough money or there aren't enough people who want the urban condo lifestyle or loft lifestyle in Jacksonville. Either way does not bode well in the long run for projects like the 2 proposed in Brooklyn or any urban projects for that matter.
Also, per loan covenants and per just operational sense, the developer usually covers the HOA deficit until sold out. It's not like because there are only 3 people living there they must pay $10,000/month each to cover the unsold units - and the lender may only do so as part of a draw on a construction loan. It just depends.
Aside from any issues with the units themselves, or the location (which I think is good, though will only appeal to people who can stand living near some rundown houses), the place has a massive yard with mature trees all around it. I would think it would be good for kids, too. Single mom with 1-2 kids or newly weds with a baby...seems like a decent fit.
I agree that Jacksonville is not a wealthy city. That being said, I think it's more a issue of location. Most of the people I meet on a day to do basis don't even know what 13 Gypsies/Bold Bean is, let alone where it is. So, while it may be a fantastic location for us, I'm not sure (outside of MetroJax forum followers and preexisting Riverside residents) many people want what JG is offering: (nice) condos in an untested neighborhood, close to "the bad side of town" and I-10, with some shabby houses to boot.
Quote from: simms3 on March 27, 2012, 08:15:50 AM
And might I point out there are some obstacles facing Jacksonville to urbanizing. Your transplant from Long Island just sold his tiny house for $895K and is moving down. He's moving from a much more urban place with old established town centers and trains into the city. He may be moving from something similar to JG without a yard and without mature live oaks all around it. When he comes down, he's going to choose between 2 lifestyles:
1) He'll want to be in the city. He can afford 10 units at JG, but would never move there. Why live in a smaller space when in Jacksonville he can afford a mansion or 3 bedroom luxury condo in the city? And who ever heard of mansions with acre yards "in the city" in the first place? This is something virtually all sunbelt cities offer that northern cities don't, and mansions in northern cities start at $10M.
2) He's coming from Long Island. Why the hell would he live "in the city" when a) there is no city, and b) there is a beach? He's moving to the beach.
2A) If he has kids and does not want to live in a mansion in the city, he'll move to a gated community in ICW or SJC. He's moving out of the cold and extreme taxes and congestion, so of course he'll want the opposite of what he has put up with so long, and he believes it is best for his wife and kids.
The types of people who move to JG have to be local types and 1st time home buyers. It just has to be. Maybe some transplant artists who are priced out of larger cities. I just worry there is an extreme dearth of buyers of urban condos and renters of urban units, most of which have to be priced above what Jax can afford. Atlanta just upped its pricing of new construction intown apartments to minimum $2/SF/mo - base, which means luxury apartments are going to have to be a lot more if new construction. That's a minimum of $2Kish for a 2 bedroom for all new construction (which includes a lot of rehab).
Considering I know a good amount of people that fit your description (literally, from Long Island), you're right. My fiancé is from Long Island, and a few of her family friends want to cash in their assets up north and get something on the river/on the beach down here. Not to mention Long Island is one decentralized mess, and "the city" is at minimum 1/2-1 hour from most locations.
I would still be wary of any new condo purchases right now. You have a strong likeliehood that you will most definitely lose money on them at least short term. I did a quick search and I see condos all over Jacksonville from 65k to 100k for very decent units on up. I see one in Oakleaf for 45k, actually. I am assuming that is a bankruptcy. You will have to get rid of this glut of condos, and I admit I am looking at ones way out on the suburbs too, but people will buy these first and bring down condo prices in general. I don't see this changing anytime soon, so that is why I think that you will loose value on your property almost immediately unless you are buying in at these rock bottom prices. Now if you hold onto your unit ( that just sounds dirty) for a while, and I am not expert at all, but for maybe 10 years, then you would likely see it turn back around.
I've heard more or less what Simms has said regarding the John Gorrie. From the "horse's mouth once removed" so to speak, my understanding is that they feel their trouble is due to (1) the already depressed market, which has caused condo prices to drop far beyond what they can feasibly do (2) the price point/location, compared to what you can get for a similar price in other locations (I think it's a good location, but the type of people willing to shell out this kind of money for lofts evidently disagree), and (3) the fact that the people who are interested (often young folks starting out) have had trouble with the financing.
Not much they can do about 1 or even 2 right now, but I understand 3 may be getting somewhat better.
Quote from: Tacachale on March 27, 2012, 10:02:43 AM
I've heard more or less what Simms has said regarding the John Gorrie. From the "horse's mouth once removed" so to speak, my understanding is that they feel their trouble is due to (1) the already depressed market, which has caused condo prices to drop far beyond what they can feasibly do (2) the price point/location, compared to what you can get for a similar price in other locations (I think it's a good location, but the type of people willing to shell out this kind of money for lofts evidently disagree), and (3) the fact that the people who are interested (often young folks starting out) have had trouble with the financing.
Not much they can do about 1 or even 2 right now, but I understand 3 may be getting somewhat better.
Getting better, but I'm not sure how quick. My sister just moved from 1661 to The Strand. Tried to get a place at JG, but financially didn't work out.
I realize this is comparing apples or oranges, but it does illustrate the choices buyers have right now. In the Southside area there are 80 condos for sale under $75,000. We are seeing the ones that still have financing available getting snapped up quickly. The fact that John Gorrie isn't selling is in part because buyers are seeing better values elsewhere and they are willing to forego the charm and ambiance in favor of a perceived "steal" elsewhere. Not to mention the fact that you can get a house in Riverside for almost the same price as a condo. Right now there are 12 houses under $140,000.
JG site agent is now part time. They have sold 5 units so far. Delores Weaver is also assisting with sales efforts, she has an office there. There used to be great financing from Everbank with something like 5% down, but they have since pulled that, and it is presumed that the Everbank deal was how these 5 qualified for the purchases. As others have stated the purchasing has gotten much tougher of late.
I would love to buy there. It is so difficult to get in there? The agent is never there and the telephone is never answered...I also wonder why they did not put in a pool? I know Good Shepherd has a pool but seriously there are very few amentities for the building itself...It is sad to see such a beatiful building so empty...
Quote from: sdmjax on May 04, 2013, 08:48:28 AM
I would love to buy there. It is so difficult to get in there? The agent is never there and the telephone is never answered...I also wonder why they did not put in a pool? I know Good Shepherd has a pool but seriously there are very few amentities for the building itself...It is sad to see such a beatiful building so empty...
They've shot themselves in the foot, I think, by not allowing rentals. I know a dozen people who would gladly rent there. Not sure about the pool. I've been inside, and I don't know where they'd put it. The place has a really weird layout, I'll say that. The ones facing Stockton are a nice use of space, but I'm not so sure about the more interior spaces.
A unit was recently bought and immediately put up for rent. Listing came down within a week.
I went to look at a few condos there recently but I came away unimpressed. For a building that has such character it is a remarkably sterile atmosphere, even if it had the warm bodies for it. The financing isn't an issue for me it is simply that the building doesn't provide anything. Not to mention I looked at 2 other condos off of St.Johns ave the same day. They offered similar amenities but were priced under $80,000.
The condo market in Jacksonville is still in the gutter and considering there are is an ever growing glut of foreclosed ones coming back on the market it won't get better anytime soon.
I will say for the HOA, you don't get a lot. I personally would be happy to forego amenities for a lower HOA but there's not much they can cut.
Did or do the Weavers actually reside in the Gorrie Building? Anyone know?
Delores Weaver lives there.
Well that explains the fact that there is no real effort to sell the condo's, no one always answering the phones etc. John Gorrie was her baby and now her home. Luckily she can afford both the taxes and maintenance on the building so if most of it stays empty who cares? This also explains why the condo offered for rent in the building went down right quick. lol
I really don't think she lives there...pretty sure she lives in Villa Rive or whatever it's called, next to St. Vincents. I've seen her walking and driving in and out of there dozens of times on my neighborhood walks.
Quote from: FSBA on May 04, 2013, 01:19:37 PM
I went to look at a few condos there recently but I came away unimpressed. For a building that has such character it is a remarkably sterile atmosphere, even if it had the warm bodies for it. The financing isn't an issue for me it is simply that the building doesn't provide anything. Not to mention I looked at 2 other condos off of St.Johns ave the same day. They offered similar amenities but were priced under $80,000.
The condo market in Jacksonville is still in the gutter and considering there are is an ever growing glut of foreclosed ones coming back on the market it won't get better anytime soon.
Agree. I was "impressed" (for lack of a better word) with 2 of the 2 dozen units I saw. The corner unit facing Stockton and the 2 story unit right next to it.
I'm glad they rehabbed the building, but I'm not so sure condos were the buildings highest and best use. Rentals are one thing, but who would wanna buy there? Apparently not many.
Ben, what are the prices like on the units?
The nice 2 story units (~1,400 sqft)are 225 and up with the largest units (~1,800) at 295 if I remember right. The 2 BR flats start 150ish. I believe HOA is .25 a sqft.
Quote from: Cheshire Cat on May 04, 2013, 02:10:26 PM
Ben, what are the prices like on the units?
Don't remember. Maybe a lil less than JFman00 is quoting. I was there 6-8 months ago. I remember thinking, "while these are aesthetically ok, they're too expensive for what you get."
I was going in from an investor standpoint, not as a potential renter. What's annoying is they're only letting investors buy 6 unit blocks, no more. Also, they aren't cutting any breaks. It's not financially feasible to invest in these, basically, if you want to turn around and rent them out.
Pulled out my notes from the units I looked at. This info is from spring 2012:
1800sf two story, 2/2s for 310 and 312, 450 HOA
1367-1484sf two story, 2/2s for 218-236, 345-373 HOA
1408 sqft corner flat, 2/2 for 228, 354 HOA
Insane HOAs for what you get..
Pulled up their listings.
There is a studio listed for $109,000 w/ a HOA of $191.
Acouple of 1/1s for sale between $135,000 and $150,000. HOAs are about $250
I see one 2 bedroom with a HOA of under $300. Everything else is still above.
In total they have 10 units still listed and have been on the market for over 650 days.
oy...
FYI it is the lowest HOA per square foot in all of Riverside-Avondale. Included would be exterior upkeep and insurance of all the grounds and common areas , which are extensive and include some very nice interior areas, water and sewer is included, plus parking and a decent workout room.
Any search will show you that these are the cheapest condos in Riverside-Avondale. And offer by far the most choices in terms of layout and square footage. Also you get a 10 year ad valorem tax deduction of around 40% (for Historic Renovation) which no one else is offering that I am aware of.
Saw a mention of "looked at 2 other condos off St Johns the other day ...priced under $80,000." Not on the MLS. Must be FSBO units.
Delores Weaver does not live there. She maintains an office there.
I have showed the building many times to several prospects. While none have bought, most were impressed. They have one Listing Agent and she is very good, beside her the marketing has been horrible. The photos on the MLS need a complete do-over. It needs a great virtual tour that Buyers could access. (Both of these are incredibly inexpensive fixes for a property like this, not sure why they have not been taken care of.)
The timing to come on the market was tough, but the Weavers did the right thing. They got the building for the price that made it possible.
Every single person who bught at 1661 Riverside in the first 2-3 years it was available is massively underwater right now (if they did not already walk away from it). The same will not be said of this building.
"The condo market in Jax is still in the gutter". That's up for debate. In Riverside-Avondale-Ortega there have been 58 sales in the last year, only 7 off those were less than $100,000, while 8 were north of $500,000. The median price was $174,000, about what one would pay for a 1200 sf bungalow in decent condition in the neighborhood.
4 condos are currently "Pending", priced from $155,000 to $480,000, and 33 units "Active" or available. Prices from $68,000 out near NAS Jax (not really the historic district) all the way up to $1.8 million for a penthouse at Villa Reve on the river adjacent to St Vincents. (I acknowledge the Gorrie has more than 30 units available which are not on the MLS.)
I would wager that the average income for the single hipsters below 40 who live in Riverside is $25-35,000 a year, enough to rent in the neighborhood but not enough to qualify for a mortgage on a $150,000 condo.
Cheshire Cat, I'd be glad to set up a showing for you then you can post your opinion for others to enjoy.
For all the negatives, I would have bought one if I could've found favorable (low downpayment) financing. I think that more than anything is what's stopping these units from moving. As a single twenty-something, it's hard to justify scraping together 20% down on a condo when there are so many decent SFHs or cheap multi-family properties that can be purchased with an FHA/VA.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2013, 04:28:09 PM
FYI it is the lowest HOA per square foot in all of Riverside-Avondale. Included would be exterior upkeep and insurance of all the grounds and common areas , which are extensive and include some very nice interior areas, water and sewer is included, plus parking and a decent workout room.
Any search will show you that these are the cheapest condos in Riverside-Avondale. And offer by far the most choices in terms of layout and square footage. Also you get a 10 year ad valorem tax deduction of around 40% (for Historic Renovation) which no one else is offering that I am aware of.
Saw a mention of "looked at 2 other condos off St Johns the other day ...priced under $80,000." Not on the MLS. Must be FSBO units.
Delores Weaver does not live there. She maintains an office there.
I have showed the building many times to several prospects. While none have bought, most were impressed. They have one Listing Agent and she is very good, beside her the marketing has been horrible. The photos on the MLS need a complete do-over. It needs a great virtual tour that Buyers could access. (Both of these are incredibly inexpensive fixes for a property like this, not sure why they have not been taken care of.)
The timing to come on the market was tough, but the Weavers did the right thing. They got the building for the price that made it possible.
Every single person who bught at 1661 Riverside in the first 2-3 years it was available is massively underwater right now (if they did not already walk away from it). The same will not be said of this building.
"The condo market in Jax is still in the gutter". That's up for debate. In Riverside-Avondale-Ortega there have been 58 sales in the last year, only 7 off those were less than $100,000, while 8 were north of $500,000. The median price was $174,000, about what one would pay for a 1200 sf bungalow in decent condition in the neighborhood.
4 condos are currently "Pending", priced from $155,000 to $480,000, and 33 units "Active" or available. Prices from $68,000 out near NAS Jax (not really the historic district) all the way up to $1.8 million for a penthouse at Villa Reve on the river adjacent to St Vincents. (I acknowledge the Gorrie has more than 30 units available which are not on the MLS.)
I would wager that the average income for the single hipsters below 40 who live in Riverside is $25-35,000 a year, enough to rent in the neighborhood but not enough to qualify for a mortgage on a $150,000 condo.
Cheshire Cat, I'd be glad to set up a showing for you then you can post your opinion for others to enjoy.
I would love to see the property, thank you for offering. I will message you my phone number and email address.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2013, 04:28:09 PM
I would wager that the average income for the single hipsters below 40 who live in Riverside is $25-35,000 a year, enough to rent in the neighborhood but not enough to qualify for a mortgage on a $150,000 condo.
And I think this is the crux of the problem why this place isn't selling. People do want to rent there though, which I guess is a good sign?
If I ever sell one I'll buy a round of drinks for everyone "on this thread" at Pele's. Happy Hour, of course.
^ Looking forward to the tour on Wednesday MusicMan. :) I will take pics to share with everyone on the forum as well. My curiosity is piqued.
Quote from: MusicMan on May 04, 2013, 06:08:31 PM
If I ever sell one I'll buy a round of drinks for everyone "on this thread" at Pele's. Happy Hour, of course.
I'll remember that!!!
Quote from: ben says on May 04, 2013, 05:51:02 PM
People do want to rent there though, which I guess is a good sign?
I believe the market for nice rentals in all the historc neighborhoods is relatively strong these days. I've had various friends looking in San Marco, Riverside & Avondale, and Springfield for the last several months, and it's been slim pickings. That's good news.
Anyone know how John Gorrie compares quality-wise with the other school to loft conversions in the downtown-ish area, San Marco Lofts and Market Street Lofts?
Also, not sure what that huge red brick building downtown across from the Clara White Mission on Broad Street is used for (Head Start?), but that'd make a fantastic conversion as well.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
Quote from: ben says on May 04, 2013, 05:51:02 PM
People do want to rent there though, which I guess is a good sign?
I believe the market for nice rentals in all the historc neighborhoods is relatively strong these days. I've had various friends looking in San Marco, Riverside & Avondale, and Springfield for the last several months, and it's been slim pickings. That's good news.
Anyone know how John Gorrie compares quality-wise with the other school to loft conversions in the downtown-ish area, San Marco Lofts and Market Street Lofts?
Also, not sure what that huge red brick building downtown across from the Clara White Mission on Broad Street is used for (Head Start?), but that'd make a fantastic conversion as well.
San Marco Lofts is doing extremely well (from what I've heard & seen).
Not a school, but from my amateur perspective, as another historic conversion the quality of the Gorrie is above that of the Churchwell Lofts. The walls in the Gorrie seem to have been very well soundproofed and they preserved the original plaster as much as possible. When my Dad (trained in the trades) came down and looked at a Churchwell Loft, he had concerns the wall was separating from the lath. Also, there's a strong sulfur odor that comes out of the pipes in the Churchwell if the taps aren't turned on often enough.
I've been scouring the inner neighborhoods for a decent rental but very tough to find anything both decent and convenient (walking distance to Five Points, King St, San Marco Square). At this point I'll be happy to settle for anywhere with a gas cooktop. Sorry to go off-topic but it's been a frustrating search and I needed to vent.
I was in the same boat as you. Solution: stopped looking at bigger condo-ish establishments and went smaller. Churchwell was gorgeous, but didn't like that part of downtown. Bell River is terrible. Gorrie didn't rent. 1661 was full and what was available was too expensive. Chelsea was full and too expensive. Yada yada yada.
So yeah, I used Traditions Jax to find a local landlord. Got a pretty sweet deal. Right off Park, 2 blocks from 5 Points. If you need help, PM me for the landlords info. He owns over a dozen historic apartment complexes in Riverside. And yeah, there's gas cooktop.
Anyone know how the sales have been going in the past year? Did enough sell to help ease up on the financing from banks?
They have been selling pretty well, not sure what financing options are out there but I'll check with the Berkshire Hathaway agent who handles the property and let you know.
Are you thinking of purchasing one, or just curious?
Might be looking to move soon. I live in the neighborhood and love it.
Sales have been picking up in the past year. I would say that nearly half of the condos are sold.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
Quote from: ben says on May 04, 2013, 05:51:02 PM
People do want to rent there though, which I guess is a good sign?
I believe the market for nice rentals in all the historc neighborhoods is relatively strong these days. I've had various friends looking in San Marco, Riverside & Avondale, and Springfield for the last several months, and it's been slim pickings. That's good news.
Anyone know how John Gorrie compares quality-wise with the other school to loft conversions in the downtown-ish area, San Marco Lofts and Market Street Lofts?
Also, not sure what that huge red brick building downtown across from the Clara White Mission on Broad Street is used for (Head Start?), but that'd make a fantastic conversion as well.
Bill, the Market Street Lofts are almost sold out, only two left. They are different than any other condo/loft in that they are basic in finishes with the intention that the buyers come in and make it their own - as true lofts in big cities operate. The prices at Market Street are less also because they reflect AS IS pricing.
If anyone wants to see pics, brochure, pricing etc. they can go here http://www.intownjacksonville.com/1951-market-street-lofts.html (http://www.intownjacksonville.com/1951-market-street-lofts.html) The units that are left are units 3 and 14. The rest are sold or under contract
The Market Street lofts are also FHA approved, not many other condos/lofts in Jax are.
5 Pointy, let me know if you want to see them. I spoke with the Listing Agent and they are not FHA approved.
They do however have three in house lenders who you would need to talk with (unless you are paying cash).
I have all the contact info for those lenders :)
Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
Also, not sure what that huge red brick building downtown across from the Clara White Mission on Broad Street is used for (Head Start?), but that'd make a fantastic conversion as well.
That is supposed to be the Beaver Street Villas. Clara White is working on it, or at least was. I think they have run into a few funding issues.
The 2nd and 3rd floor will be transitional housing for people in Clara White's culinary and janitorial school.
Quote from: riverside_mail on September 10, 2014, 07:10:11 AM
I would say that nearly half of the condos are sold.
..I find this very hard to believe.
Quote from: Bridges on September 10, 2014, 10:06:53 AM
Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
Also, not sure what that huge red brick building downtown across from the Clara White Mission on Broad Street is used for (Head Start?), but that'd make a fantastic conversion as well.
That is supposed to be the Beaver Street Villas. Clara White is working on it, or at least was. I think they have run into a few funding issues.
The 2nd and 3rd floor will be transitional housing for people in Clara White's culinary and janitorial school.
I was referring a different building, the much larger one across the street.
I believe federal funding/contracting is involved in the Beaver Street Villa project, which takes a very long time to work through. Hence the stall.
Quote from: Bill Hoff on May 04, 2013, 06:52:32 PM
I was referring a different building, the much larger one across the street.
The old Ed Stanton school? Last I had heard that was going to become some charter high school, SGT Bilko Charter High (thats not the name and I cannot remember it but its very similar and this was the joke name when it was announced). The State Board of Ed denied the application but I think it is still tied up in the appeals process. I could be wrong though, that was like a 2012 or early 2013 thing.
Quote from: MusicMan on September 10, 2014, 09:51:59 AM
5 Pointy, let me know if you want to see them. I spoke with the Listing Agent and they are not FHA approved.
They do however have three in house lenders who you would need to talk with (unless you are paying cash).
I have all the contact info for those lenders :)
Thanks. Wonder why they are still not FHA approved?
Pretty stringent guidelines set down by FHA and part of that is difficult for a brand new (in this case 2 year old) condo to achieve. I've said on this website many times if they where FHA approved they would have sold out. OR if they had a deal with Navy Federal Credit Union offering 3-5% down loans................
Anyway, I have a good relationship with the Berkshire Hathaway agent listing them and she just told me at the end of this month they should surpass 50% SOLD. That's good news.
I don't know what type of financing is available but it could be a 10% down conventional loan. Only
way to find out is to make the call. You can PM me and I'll send you the info. :)
Quote from: ben says on September 10, 2014, 10:28:44 AM
Quote from: riverside_mail on September 10, 2014, 07:10:11 AM
I would say that nearly half of the condos are sold.
..I find this very hard to believe.
The Gorrie is on my mail route. By my last count, I deliver to 34 units.
Probably one of them is Mrs. Weaver's office, but I believe there are 63 total units............................
For anyone who is interested, there is one unit currently being marketed as a rental. A 2/2 with 1400 sf. Asking $1575 monthly. Considering a 1/1 at Belle Riverside starts at $1240 this seems pretty competitive.
It only took 6 years, but the Gorrie hit 50% sold yesterday.
Financing has changed a LOT in 6 years. That is the difference maker, that and people's financial statements too. Should continue to do well with improving economy.
John Gorrie condos now FHA approved.
QuoteThe John Gorrie a condominium was recently awarded Federal Housing Administration (FHA) approval, which allows qualified homebuyers the opportunity to obtain low down payment, fixed rate mortgages at competitive rates.
"We are thrilled to receive FHA approval for The John Gorrie," said Delores Barr Weaver, owner of The John Gorrie a condominium. "Being FHA-approved allows more opportunity for prospective homebuyers to receive lower down payment rates and various other loan and insurance opportunities."
FHA is the most widely accepted mortgage option by commercial leaders, credit unions and private mortgage companies. Being FHA-approved verifies that the condominium association is financially stable through an independent audit of the association budget; is primarily comprised of owner-occupants rather than investors; and that the construction of the buildings is in compliance with FHA standards.
"A condominium that is primarily owned by its residents typically experience more stable property values than investor-owned communities," said Weaver. "The John Gorrie is truly an exceptional residence for families and individuals of all ages seeking unique charm in a thriving community. We are proud of the condominium and the community atmosphere it has developed and look forward to working with homebuyers through the FHA," said Weaver.
Formerly the John Gorrie Junior High School, the building was constructed in 1923 and was designed by noted Jacksonville architects Roy A. Benjamin and Mellen C. Greeley. The school's ornate design reflects Mediterranean Revival architecture popular in the early 1920s and was listed in the National Register of Historic Places in 1987 before closing in 1997, after the last graduating class. After a dozen years of neglect and disrepair, Weaver began the meticulous restoration and renovation of the two buildings that housed the school, investing a substantial amount of her own time and money into the project. Today, The John Gorrie a condominium consists of 68 residences with luxurious contemporary amenities including 12-foot ceilings, expansive windows, stainless steel GE appliances, CaesarStone countertops and hardwood floors.
The John Gorrie offers one- and two-bedroom residences and two-story townhomes. Amenities include a custom fitness center, a private courtyard, elevators, private gated parking and a resident reading room with Wi-Fi Internet access. Residents are also in close proximity to the St. Johns River and a variety of beautiful parks. Due to the historical elements and significance of the former school buildings, The John Gorrie a condominium has been granted an ad valorem tax abatement towards each homeowner's tax bill through 2021. This abatement translates into approximately a 50 percent reduction in the resident's real estate taxes.
For more information about how you can be part of The John Gorrie community, call Lee S. Elmore at (904) 383-3688 or visit www.TheJohnGorrie.com.