http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-03-07/story/florida-coastal-school-law-grads-file-suit-against-school-allege (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-03-07/story/florida-coastal-school-law-grads-file-suit-against-school-allege)
Six graduates from the Florida Coastal School of Law have filed a class-action lawsuit against the Jacksonville school over what they say is misleading post-graduation statistics marketed to prospective students.
Florida Coastal is accused of giving inflated job-placement and salary numbers of its graduates. The lawsuit asks that $100 million in damages and relief “refunding and reimbursing current and former students for tuition†be awarded to the plaintiffs.
Filed last month by Taylor Casey, Audra Awai, Clifford Klein, Jocelyn Stinson, Melissa Shipman and Amy Kisz, the lawsuit is one of more than a dozen filed in the last year by graduates of U.S. law schools who say schools attracted them with inaccurate glimpses of the job market for attorneys.
“These deceptions are perpetuated so as to prevent prospective students from realizing the obvious â€" that attending Florida Coastal and forking well over $100,000 in tuition payments is a terrible investment which makes little economic sense and, most likely, will never pay off,†the lawsuit says.
It asks that the school stop its “unlawful recruitment program and manipulation of post-graduate employment data and salary information.â€
Florida Coastal denied the allegations.
“As we have assured our students, faculty, staff and alumni from day one, Florida Coastal School of Law is extremely confident and stands behind the integrity of the postgraduate employment information we submit annually for publication to the American Bar Association and others,†the school said. “Our data is well-researched and thoroughly vetted, and we will continue to vigorously defend ourselves against these baseless allegations.†Attorneys for the school filed a motion asking the court to dismiss the lawsuit.
Michael Volpe, a New York lawyer, said Florida Coastal School â€" like each of the law schools facing similar lawsuits â€" complied with standards mandated by the American Bar Association in reporting its employment and salary numbers.
He said the complaint does not directly show how the plaintiffs were “injured†by the statistics portrayed as inaccurate.
According to the lawsuit, the school reported that 80 to 95 percent of its graduates secured employment within nine months of graduation.
“These numbers are false because Florida Coastal’s reported employment numbers include any type of employment, including jobs that have absolutely nothing to do with the legal industry, do not require a [law] degree or are temporary or part-time in nature,†the suit states.
The plaintiffs say the numbers would drop dramatically if the school disclosed the number of graduates who have obtained full-time positions that require a law degree.
The lawsuit also says Florida Coastal “grossly inflates its graduates’ reported mean salaries.â€
The school’s students graduate “on average with a whopping $120,410 in loans, placing them in the top 15th percentile of indebtedness among all law school graduates,†according to the lawsuit.
william.browning@jacksonville.com, (904) 359-4619
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2012-03-07/story/florida-coastal-school-law-grads-file-suit-against-school-allege#ixzz1oQqFm9NI
I posted a story similar to this on facebook about a month ago.
It's not that I disagree with what they're trying to accomplish, but you'd think that you would do a little more research into the post-grad numbers.... BEFORE you've plopped down $100k.
But new attorneys suing thier law school.... ironic, huh?
Award a man a judgement; feed him for a year...
Teach a man to litigate; feed him for a lifetime.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 07, 2012, 08:01:24 AM
I posted a story similar to this on facebook about a month ago.
It's not that I disagree with what they're trying to accomplish, but you'd think that you would do a little more research into the post-grad numbers.... BEFORE you've plopped down $100k.
But new attorneys suing thier law school.... ironic, huh?
This is a good point, but how much research can you really do into job claims posted by universities. They control all the metrics, and data used for these studies, so even thorough research is not going to get you access to the info you need, unless you interview a large data set of past graduates and or companies, your kind of stuck with the info they provide.
Quote from: manasia on March 07, 2012, 08:49:37 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 07, 2012, 08:01:24 AM
I posted a story similar to this on facebook about a month ago.
It's not that I disagree with what they're trying to accomplish, but you'd think that you would do a little more research into the post-grad numbers.... BEFORE you've plopped down $100k.
But new attorneys suing thier law school.... ironic, huh?
This is a good point, but how much research can you really do into job claims posted by universities. They control all the metrics, and data used for these studies, so even thorough research is not going to get you access to the info you need, unless you interview a large data set of past graduates and or companies, your kind of stuck with the info they provide.
About a year ago, I'd agree with you. Now that I've been in the law school game for a year, looked around, done some research, job statistics are quite easy to come by.
The problem I see around campus is a lot of people have delusions of grandeur: they really think being a lawyer in Jacksonville is reminiscent of LA Law. A lot of people still think most lawyers make 160k a year. A lot of people aren't going to law school because they want to be a lawyer...they're going to law school because they "don't know what else to do."
Moreover, taking out $100k in student loan debt...eh...I'd think you'd want to be REALLY SURE you can find a job afterwards, or at least have a connection when you get out. I, for one, wouldn't be doing this if I didn't get a full-ride via scholarship. Then again, I actually wanted to have a law degree. Not sure many of my peers know what they want.
Quote from: ben says on March 07, 2012, 09:00:21 AM
Quote from: manasia on March 07, 2012, 08:49:37 AM
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on March 07, 2012, 08:01:24 AM
I posted a story similar to this on facebook about a month ago.
It's not that I disagree with what they're trying to accomplish, but you'd think that you would do a little more research into the post-grad numbers.... BEFORE you've plopped down $100k.
But new attorneys suing thier law school.... ironic, huh?
This is a good point, but how much research can you really do into job claims posted by universities. They control all the metrics, and data used for these studies, so even thorough research is not going to get you access to the info you need, unless you interview a large data set of past graduates and or companies, your kind of stuck with the info they provide.
About a year ago, I'd agree with you. Now that I've been in the law school game for a year, looked around, done some research, job statistics are quite easy to come by.
The problem I see around campus is a lot of people have delusions of grandeur: they really think being a lawyer in Jacksonville is reminiscent of LA Law. A lot of people still think most lawyers make 160k a year. A lot of people aren't going to law school because they want to be a lawyer...they're going to law school because they "don't know what else to do."
Moreover, taking out $100k in student loan debt...eh...I'd think you'd want to be REALLY SURE you can find a job afterwards, or at least have a connection when you get out. I, for one, wouldn't be doing this if I didn't get a full-ride via scholarship. Then again, I actually wanted to have a law degree. Not sure many of my peers know what they want.
I agree with that statement as well.
Law schools all over the country are being sued by their newly graduated students for the same reasons.
A friend and I was talking about this a few months ago. Not to mention, that coming right out of school Lawyers really dont make that much. When you have debt in over your head and you are not even making enough to pay your bills, theres a problem.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on March 07, 2012, 05:55:49 PM
A friend and I was talking about this a few months ago. Not to mention, that coming right out of school Lawyers really dont make that much. When you have debt in over your head and you are not even making enough to pay your bills, theres a problem.
I agree. That being said, what you are describing pertains to almost ANY school/job. I have friends in engineering, applied sciences, sociology, history--all in the same bind. It's common knowledge at this point that entry level attorneys make about $38-45k. Old news. Do your due diligence if you want to go to ANY school, end of story.
Of additional interest, these past students bringing this lawsuit against the school, how did they do in school? Were they at the top of their class or at the very bottom? It seems to me that makes a huge difference in today's world. The top in the class normally fair very well on the job market but those that are just average may have to struggle a bit to get anywhere. I have a family member in Florida Coastal right now and she as well as her peers that I know already have positions or at least know what they are going to do. None seem to have overly high expectations and are being very realistic about their futures. They are also mostly towards the top of the class.
I also know that how one does in the academic world does not always translate to how one does in the real world. A top graduate may not make the best attorney and the person who came in last and struggled through school could very well be a top trail lawyer. But it does seem that class position often is what opens those initial doors and that does seem like what this lawsuit is about; the initial positions upon graduation.
Strider, I'm not sure how correct I am on this, if my memory serves me right, many top tier graduate programs (specifically MBA) do not allow students to disclose their gpa. And recruiters, are not allowed to ask for a students GPA, if they want to recruit from said program(s). I want to say that Coastal has the same policy, again, if my memory serves me right. I had a friend that went their once and I believe we had that conversation.
It seems as though education is today's version of crossing the Atlantic as an indentured servant. Whether it's education or travel, it's still a huge amount of debt with out a huge amount of benefit. That debt, ensures servitude. So many people in my circle are educated and hard working but poor.
I'm happy these students are taking this school to court. I hope we see more and more lawsuits like this...if only to put a little fear in these institutions.
While the private school situation & student loan debt is getting out of hand, I must say a few things regarding FCSL.
1) We've beat Harvard in moot court competition: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/schools/2010-02-16/story/jacksonville_law_students_gain_national_respect_in_courtroom_com (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/schools/2010-02-16/story/jacksonville_law_students_gain_national_respect_in_courtroom_com)
2) We have a faculty that mirrors some of the best institutions around. Here's a sampling from my first year professors:
https://www.fcsl.edu/users/gerald-moran (https://www.fcsl.edu/users/gerald-moran)
https://www.fcsl.edu/users/dpimentel (https://www.fcsl.edu/users/dpimentel)
https://www.fcsl.edu/users/nhogshead (https://www.fcsl.edu/users/nhogshead)
https://www.fcsl.edu/users/rsullivan (https://www.fcsl.edu/users/rsullivan)
https://www.fcsl.edu/users/sdevito (https://www.fcsl.edu/users/sdevito)
Most, if not all my professors had PhDs in addition to JDs. I had teachers who went to Stanford, Princeton, UConn, UC-Berkley, Harvard, BYU, etc. I had professors who have argued in front of the Supreme Court.
3) Just last week, Carlo Marichal, 3L and a staff editor for Law Review, was cited by the United States District Court for the District of Massachusetts. The court cited to Carlo's article on February 10, 2012 in Awuah v. Coverall North America, Inc., --- F.Supp.2d ----, 2012 WL 432577 (D.Mass 2012).
4) I have plenty of friends going to UF Law, Oregon, and NYU. ALL of us, bar none, use the same text books. All of us have the same quality of teachers. All of us are equally stressed at finals, have the same amount of work to cover, and will have to take the same Bar exam when we graduate.
5) Yes, it is "easier" to get into Coastal. So what? It's easier to get into FSU than UF. It's easier to get into JU than Miami. It's always easier somewhere.
6) My sister went to an American Law in DC. Took her three years to find a job. What's going on with FCSL/employment is by no means "new"...
So yes, I have TONS of problems with for-profit schools. I have problems with overbearing loans and weak job prospects. I also have a problem with people saying "Coastal is shit'--and not explaining why other than saying "it's easy to get in."
What I don't have a problem with is people not doing their due diligence and getting f'd in the end. Nobody enters into a 120k mortgage without crunching numbers. Same with getting an education.
I am 100% playing devil's advocate here. I agree, again, that there are major problems with the for-profit school system. That being said, I find it entirely ironic how Americans want "private options" for almost every service: postal, healthcare, loans, transportation, municipal amenities, parks, clubs, beaches, museums, hospitals, blah blah blah. When it comes to school, there are tons of private options. It's not just JDs where kids are coming out of school with 100k in debt. Nor is it just with private schools. If I didn't dick around in undergrad, get drunk, have a good time, I probably could have gotten into a tier 1 school. But I didn't. Does that mean I didn't "deserve" a JD? Absolutely not. Just this one time, I was actually glad there was a private institution willing to give me a free ride.
@Ben Says, sounds like Coastal needs to hire a PR firm, reach out to the community and make a splash. Seriously, they need to be reaching out to the larger community. The few people I know that attend and teach at the school are stellar individuals. I, personally, don't dismiss the organization. In terms of public perception it has a few things working against it: One, it's in Jacksonville. Two, it has a terrible name. Three, it spent most of it's life in a run down looking building next to down trodden tennis courts on a high traffic street. So, everyday thousands of people were reminded of this school in a mostly negative light simply because of their real estate.
This is an excuse, but we're not raised to crunch numbers for education. We make the false assumption that education means something and that it is an opportunity maker. Again, I liken many of us to indentured servants that traveled across the sea only to find shackles around their ankles. I'm pretty sure most indentured servants did not crunch numbers..."hmm, will my debt of travel be proportionally beneficial to my opportunities in the new world. I can only hope."
For most younger people, the fear of failure or worst, having a low end job is enough to make the most genius of us make really stupid decisions. And, on top of that, education is one of the most expensive luxury items one can attain. We will go into debt for glimmering degrees but it sucks when we find out we paid high dollar for costume jewelry...which again many of us do (buy costume jewelry).
It's kind of irrelevant if Coastal beat Harvard in a competition. Harvard's losing graduates won the first day they attended a Harvard class. They will come out of school making a six figure income and much of their student debt paid for by the hiring organization. That's unfortunate for coastal students because their hard work is not blazing a trail for them.
If Coastal is as competitive as you say when compared to other top tier schools then they are absolutely failing in the credibility department. They are doing a bad job making sure their students are recognized and hired by firms/organizations throughout the nation/world as a place to recruit trained attorneys...maybe at a discount. Their brand name needs to be recognized and admired by the organizations that matter. As well, the public needs to know that they are comprable to other top tier institutions. If we, the residents, respect it, that will positively impact the whole institution.
Again, I'm for this lawsuit. Coastal will step up their game as a result of this litigation.
People go to Harvard Law and other elite schools so that they never (or rarely) have to step foot in a court. I doubt they put much emphasis on moot court.
To the post about GPA. Some schools may not allow people to state their GPA, but they do let them know where they ranked in their class. This is what really matters since grades are often curved. I don't know how it is for Coastal grads, but at elite law schools class rank is pretty important. The people who finish highly ranked in their class pretty much call their shots.
Quote from: CityLife on March 08, 2012, 11:37:36 AM
People go to Harvard Law and other elite schools so that they never (or rarely) have to step foot in a court. I doubt they put much emphasis on moot court.
To the post about GPA. Some schools may not allow people to state their GPA, but they do let them know where they ranked in their class. This is what really matters since grades are often curved. I don't know how it is for Coastal grads, but at elite law schools class rank is pretty important. The people who finish highly ranked in their class pretty much call their shots.
It is the same at Coastal. Rank dominates, GPA doesn't. Most schools grade on a curve, whether tier 1 or tier 4. Therefore, there's no better way to determine status than your class rank. Obviously, the higher than rank, the better your chances are of doing anything, anywhere.
Not re the law school, but...I had a friend who said he was going to a local for-profit technical school for computers, and that they place a high number of their grads in high paying jobs. I said, right, check it out. He didn't listen and signed the contract. I called around to a few IT departments and HR departments and asked what they thought of this school. They said don't waste your money. Go to college and get a computing degree. Friend ended up graduating in top of his class, facing huge student loan, and ended up working back at his old job fixing cars to pay it off.
NOT suggesting this law school is similar. In fact, I've heard good things about it. Just suggesting potential students call some top local law firms' HR departments and ask them if they would, all else being equal, hire a graduate of this school just as well as any other school...before they sign up.