This thread was split off from the 5-points Street Art Piece, OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 28, 2012, 09:56:32 AM
They built the base for it and then never put the thing up. I don't think anyone knows WTF is up with it, it's been a year.
Wouldn't that be a good thing for RAP to fight for??? Beautifying the neighborhood...? Oh right, they've got their hands full trying to shut down one of their most successful inhabitants. Nevermind
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 28, 2012, 10:39:58 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 28, 2012, 09:56:32 AM
They built the base for it and then never put the thing up. I don't think anyone knows WTF is up with it, it's been a year.
Wouldn't that be a good thing for RAP to fight for??? Beautifying the neighborhood...? Oh right, they've got their hands full trying to shut down one of their most successful inhabitants. Nevermind
Funny. I thought RAP was a group concerned with historic preservation. Was not aware that its was a group of planners and traffic engineers.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on February 28, 2012, 10:39:58 AM
Quote from: ChriswUfGator on February 28, 2012, 09:56:32 AM
They built the base for it and then never put the thing up. I don't think anyone knows WTF is up with it, it's been a year.
Wouldn't that be a good thing for RAP to fight for??? Beautifying the neighborhood...? Oh right, they've got their hands full trying to shut down one of their most successful inhabitants. Nevermind
Come on, Captain! Cheap shot and not true. They are not trying to shut down Kickbacks, they just don't think something larger than the Cheesecake Factory at the Town Center is appropriate for the neighborhood.
400+ seats ain't small, Stephen and is too big for the 'hood. We should be writing this on the other thread. Captain hijacked it, so I had to reply here. Nuf said here.
I don't get the whole "too many seats" argument.
Who gives a f*ck.
Bring on 800, 1600, 3200 seats. Jesus christ...for once we have an establishment bringing people in by the bucket load, and everyone freaks out. Isn't that what successful neighborhoods/businesses do?????
I lived in Charleston, a city where EVERYONE, rich, poor, condo, mansion, studio, flat parked on the street. Good, vibrant cities (san fran is another one that comes to mind) have tons of street parking, sometimes at the expense of home owners. When you have ground level population, using the streets, that's what happens. Is that really so awful? feels like a fair tradeoff to me. I'd rather have to fight to get a spot in front of my house and risk parking a few blocks away than EVER drive into that hell-hole they call the Town center.
Not to mention...
let's give RAP the benefit of the doubt. They want to maintain "historic preservation." Is Kickbacks REALLY preventing that???? Not sure what's going on here, but the whole thing stinks.
Sorry for the rants.
Far more restaurant seats at the shops in Avondale. People park all over the place. Avondale routinely cited as one of the great historic areas in the southeast. Go figure.
QuoteThey want to maintain "historic preservation."
That is 100% absolute horse hockey! RAP wants to maintain control, they are control zealots who think they have the power over what anyone in the Riverside/Avondale district can and should do to renovate or change buildings. In fact, they have the absolute power over the Historic part of planning by making people fill out Certificates of Appropriateness, just so they can approve or deny changes or renovations.
RAP is all about not allowing change, unless it is THEIR kind of change. They fear anyone who wants to make any changes that do not fit within their strict confines of THEIR change. That "building" that Kickbacks wants to tear down has 0% Historic value, its a dump, and if it was historic, Code Enforcement, the submissive group that RAP uses to enforce their will, would have shut down the owners for the numerous violations, but alas they have not and Code Enforcement does nothing still, because RAP has a bigger score to settle with Kickbacks.
RAP would shut down Avondale if they could, I'd love to see every store setup as a restaurant just to burn their candles at both ends. Let the people park from St. Johns to 17 on every available street. It is URBAN living, if you don't like Nocatee is looking for deadwood.
historic districts all over the country have additional controls beyond what non-historic areas do....yielding some assurance that the district will maintain its look and feel....which is precisely why many homes in these historic areas increase in value more than other areas.
Riverside-Avondale is a great example of this in Jacksonville.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 29, 2012, 08:02:29 AM
historic districts all over the country have additional controls beyond what non-historic areas do....yielding some assurance that the district will maintain its look and feel....
You are getting the historic preservation regulations contained within the ordinance code confused with RAP, which is merely an advisory organization with no authority. RAP is trying to make itself into some sort of quasi-homeowners association. No thanks. Stick to what you know, which is historic preservation.
Found this amusing from RAP's website:
QuoteIn the 1970s, a handful of residents watched with dismay as unique historical structures were left in disrepair or demolished before their eyes. These concerned citizens, led by Dr. Wayne Wood, decided to take action and formed Riverside Avondale Preservation in 1974 with the aim of preserving the unique scenic, cultural and historical atmosphere of the neighborhood.
I'd opine that RAP has swerved way off course. If you want a homeowners association, move to the myriad of subdivisions around town. The City already has added regulatory authority over the neighborhood, we don;t need RAP making it more difficult for local residents and businesses.
The historic overlay is worthless, in my opinion. I could have made it in 30 minutes if I had a decent map and some crayola markers. All they did is take properties that had a house on them and designate them as residential parcels (no sh*t Sherlock), they took parcels with stores and called them commercial (holy cow!), and etc. for the other land uses. There was no vision involved, no attention paid towards future growth of commercial districts or denser mixed use development in the commercial areas. They just took what was already sitting in the dirt and said what it was and now what it shall be for the foreseeable future. So until the overlay expires, they have intentionally stagnated progress for the sake of preservation.
Before you go ranting on about the overlay and RAP, realize that an overlay and historic designation protects the neighborhood from wholesale destruction or bastardizing of historic buildings. RAP doesn't control the process. The LUZ committee and the City Council does. But without the preservation advocacy, you could end up with people modernizing your commercial buildings and making them look like the god-awful pink stucco eyesore that is the old Claude Nolan Building on Main Street. You can't even tell any longer that there is an incredible praire style building beneath those awful pink stucco panels that were added in the desire to "update" an old building.
Oh...and I like the sculpture. It would be great to put an uplight in there and rotate art from willing artists.
I dont have a foot on one side or the other of the kickbacks fight but I agree with Debbie. An Historic Overlay isn't a comp plan. It designates what is historic and gives a path to preserve that character. If the neighborhood wants a development plan, that is another tool.
An uplight would be nice, but I think somewhere on the thread someone said it is there temporarily???
Quote from: stephendare on February 29, 2012, 08:16:43 AM
No its not. Im not sniping at you like normal, tufsu. But this is a general misperception. The evidence showing a link between home value and historic district zoning and regulation controls is tenuous at best.
And Riverside Avondale has only had an overlay giving some kind of control for two years. The land values and the general quality of life improvements began long before. Going on 40 years ago now.
sorry...guess my post came off as absolute...I was trying to say that the assurances provided by historic districts (be it an overlay, local designation, nation register, etc.) contribute greatly to the stability of the communities and their corresponding property value increase.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on February 29, 2012, 12:39:33 PM
Before you go ranting on about the overlay and RAP, realize that an overlay and historic designation protects the neighborhood from wholesale destruction or bastardizing of historic buildings. RAP doesn't control the process. The LUZ committee and the City Council does. But without the preservation advocacy, you could end up with people modernizing your commercial buildings and making them look like the god-awful pink stucco eyesore that is the old Claude Nolan Building on Main Street. You can't even tell any longer that there is an incredible praire style building beneath those awful pink stucco panels that were added in the desire to "update" an old building.
Oh...and I like the sculpture. It would be great to put an uplight in there and rotate art from willing artists.
I have no problem with the City. For the most part, the City follows the regulations and makes exceptions were it is deemed necessary.
What I do have a problem with is RAP's attempt at broadening its mission statement. RAP was founded to support historic preservation. It was not founded to hold the rest of the neighborhood hostage as it uses the overlay as a sword to attack expanding businesses.
The problem is that our elected officials (at least some of them) believe that RAP speaks for all of us that live in the historic overlay. RAP does not speak for the neighborhood. It speaks for a small group of people that feel its their business to structure when and where development or re-vitalization occurs. Again, if I wanted to be undre the thumb of an HOA, I would have moved to Nocatee or any number of other surburban areas. Until the busybodies that comprise the RAP board stay the hell out of planning and stick to actual preservation, they will not see one red cent from this overlay zone resident. I hope others do the same.
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on February 29, 2012, 12:39:33 PM
Before you go ranting on about the overlay and RAP, realize that an overlay and historic designation protects the neighborhood from wholesale destruction or bastardizing of historic buildings. RAP doesn't control the process. The LUZ committee and the City Council does. But without the preservation advocacy, you could end up with people modernizing your commercial buildings and making them look like the god-awful pink stucco eyesore that is the old Claude Nolan Building on Main Street. You can't even tell any longer that there is an incredible praire style building beneath those awful pink stucco panels that were added in the desire to "update" an old building.
Oh...and I like the sculpture. It would be great to put an uplight in there and rotate art from willing artists.
Let me ask you this, Debbie. Post overlay, name me one building in the riverside-avondale area that has been "bastardized." I cannot think of one. The overlay is doing the intended job of preserving historic buildings.
The Kickback issue is not about preserving historic buildings. Its about parking. Its solely about parking. RAP should not be involved in parking discussions as it is well outside its expertise and the principles upon which RAP was founded. So, I ask again, wh the hell is RAP asserting itself so strenuously in the Kickbacks situation???
i split off the 5-Points Art Piece, from the hijacked section which is attacking both RAP and KICKBACKS. Before more of our readers send me a note about our 'hate' for RAP and SPAR, let me assure you THERE IS NO SUCH THING. We do not have any ill wishes for any of the historical preservation districts. We have disagreed with some of RAPs officers and members over the issue of Kickbacks, and have offered the mobility plan streetcar as the logical solution. Likewise we hold no ill will toward SPAR, but we certainly disagreed with certain past directors decisions regarding business locations, and several other points.
Speaking for myself, I fully support RAP, SPAR, as well as Saint Nicholas and San Marco preservation efforts, but I believe these organizations can be even more successful by finding ways to embrace the whole community.
OCK
In fairness to RAP, their board is meeting as we speak to consider a compromise proposal that we have offered.
Just to be clear on one other issue, we now have two COA's from the HPC. One to tear down the building next door, which RAP did not oppose since it is a non-contributing structure, and one that indicates that the design of the new building is appropriate for the neighborhood (that we worked with RAP to achieve).
Quoteman you guys totally hijacked this thread about art in 5pts. go back to your own posts. it be nice of a moderator would move said posts.
Come on man, this aint pre-k, and many of these issues overlap each other. RAP has too much control over too many items in the area. They might come out and say that they need to see yellow paint on new artwork because they feel like it and the City Historic Division believes them and makes it happen.
Heck the news people don't even know where Riverside, Avondale or the westside is located, but they sure do know where the beach is, and these are products of our public school system too, go figure.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 29, 2012, 10:22:16 PM
Quoteman you guys totally hijacked this thread about art in 5pts. go back to your own posts. it be nice of a moderator would move said posts.
It's about all MJ can muster,contribute.
Reference to MJ as alternate source of info on RAP Kickbacks update website was dropped .............bummer,reference to MJ likely enhanced "RAP",citizens and the Merchant Associations.
Inevitable
KnowGrowth/NorthMiami and who knows who else.....
A little insight into the process behind the development of the Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay. Worth reviewing, and clearly NOT a 30 minute process, as someone alluded to earlier.
http://www.slideshare.net/RiversideAvondale/riverside-avondale-zoning-overlay-report (http://www.slideshare.net/RiversideAvondale/riverside-avondale-zoning-overlay-report)
Wow,the photos.....I was twenty pounds heavier.
Although seemingly 'friendlier' than Clay County Sector Plan/Beltway public proceedings,the Overlay presented similar drivers,issues.........and leading participants to overwhelming "Vision" for public park on Fishweir Creek was easy.Needed expendable.
KG/NM and who Knows who else....
Quote from: grimss on February 29, 2012, 11:04:45 PM
A little insight into the process behind the development of the Riverside Avondale Zoning Overlay. Worth reviewing, and clearly NOT a 30 minute process, as someone alluded to earlier.
http://www.slideshare.net/RiversideAvondale/riverside-avondale-zoning-overlay-report (http://www.slideshare.net/RiversideAvondale/riverside-avondale-zoning-overlay-report)
Perhaps those opposed to Kickbacks and other commercial growth along King Street and similar commercial nodes should re-read the second bullet on slide 38.
To reiterate, the overlay is doing the job it was intended to do. Its RAP and its gaggle of busybodies that believe they know what's best for our neighborhood that has gone astray.
As for attacking RAP, I absolutely am (duh). I have yet to see any RAP supporters address the issues I have raised. Why? Because they cannot. Everyone knows RAP is trying to expand into something for which is was not intended.
Quote from: Kickbackssteve on February 29, 2012, 07:18:29 PM
In fairness to RAP, their board is meeting as we speak to consider a compromise proposal that we have offered.
So, what did they think of your proposal? Can you share?
Still no word. They promised to provide the results to us today at the latest. (Friday). I'll share them if I can....
Quote from: Kickbackssteve on March 02, 2012, 01:31:40 AM
Still no word. They promised to provide the results to us today at the latest. (Friday). I'll share them if I can....
Would love to hear this. My guess is that they will not be happy when anything you put forward. At the very least, they will want to interject how they think your restaurant should be laid out.