I, for one, am all for a new convention center. But I think tearing the buildings down "immedeately" is not a good idea. Lets wait until there is a definte plan in place before we bring out the wreacking ball. OF course, this isnt coming from the mayors office, but even the idea to me is premature. . I feel they are putting the horse before the buggie. If anyone knows some insider information on this please share. :)
Quote
DVI board supports demolition
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The Downtown Vision Inc. board of directors is advocating for the demolition of the Duval County Courthouse and the former City Hall, now the City Hall Annex, along East Bay Street as soon as possible after the buildings are vacated this spring.
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Downtown Ambassador Mike Ryan.Downtown Vision Inc.’s board of directors unanimously decided Wednesday that the Duval County Courthouse and the City Hall Annex along East Bay Street should be demolished as soon as the new courthouse is occupied.
Building a new convention center on the 8.5 acres of City-owned riverfront property emerged as the most favorable use for the site.
The more than 50-year-old government buildings were the topic of discussion Wednesday at the monthly meeting of the DVI board.
What to do with the property has been a question since construction of the Duval County Unified Courthouse Facility in LaVilla was approved.
Board member Dan King, general manager of the Hyatt Downtown, said the Hyatt’s ownership had engaged architects related to a convention center and that a plan was presented to former Mayor John Peyton and to the Jacksonville Civic Council.
The Hyatt is next to the buildings.
The civic council published a report supporting a convention center adjacent to the Hyatt.
“There’s a lot of behind-the-scenes work that has gone on,†said King.
City Council member Don Redman, an ex-officio member of the DVI board, said that allowing the government buildings to remain in place after they are vacated in May would create an ongoing expense.
He said demolition would have to be proposed by Mayor Alvin Brown and approved by the Council.
DVI board member John Welch said the property represents a valuable development opportunity that must not be squandered.
“There will be a lot of hungry eyes on that property,†said Welch, a former chair of the Urban Land Institute North Florida group.
King said he thinks the board would “clearly want to advocate for dropping those buildings.†The cleared property could be used as a park until a public-private partnership could be formed for development.
DVI Executive Director Terry Lorince said she met with Jerry Mallot and Don Shea concerning DVI’s role in the proposed Downtown development authority proposed by the Brown administration.
Mallot is president of JAXUSA Partnership of the JAX Chamber. Shea is executive director of the civic council. Both are executives on loan to Brown’s administration.
Lorince said she also has met with Brown to discuss the topic and described both meetings as “cordial†but without commitments from the administration.
Welch said that since Brown took office seven months ago, “we haven’t seen anything specific.â€
“We don’t want to wait for an announcement. We should be part of the planning,†he said.
“He’s very secretive,†Redman said of Brown, based on Council’s experience with the administration.
“When he’s ready for approval, he tells us what his plans are,†Redman said.
Board member Chris Flagg described the development of the proposed Downtown development agency “like forming a planet.â€
“Right now, it’s a lot of circulating gas that hasn’t begun to coagulate,†he said.
The board also congratulated Downtown Ambassador Mike Ryan, who received the “Recognition of Service Excellence†award this week in the Customer Service-Tourism Ambassador category from the North Florida Hotel & Lodging Association.
Ryan has been an ambassador for nearly four years.
“It’s a great job. I love every minute of it,†he said.
King, a past president of the association, said there are more than 50,000 people employed in the hospitality industry in North Florida and 156 were nominated this year for a ROSE Award.
Twenty-six people accepted their awards Wednesday.
“To be nominated is a career accomplishment. To win is a career milestone,†he said.
mmarbut@baileypub.com
Hmmm. I'm on board with you Duvaldude08. Can we at least actually figure out what will happen on both sites and how before bringing out the dynamite? For all we know, both parcels may not be needed for a convention center and the tower could be a reusable product (ex. hotel, apartments, etc.). This is exactly why downtown resembles a war zone now.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 02:33:41 PM
Hmmm. I'm on board with you Duvaldude08. Can we at least actually figure out what will happen on both sites and how before bringing out the dynamite? For all we know, both parcels may not be needed for a convention center and the tower could be a reusable product (ex. hotel, apartments, etc.). This is exactly why downtown resembles a war zone now.
Right. And with the shipyards already being leveled, that would be HUGE eyesore, coupled with the unfinished Berkman building, Bay street would look a mess. Yuck!
My inner a-hole says "It's ugly! Tear that mother down!" but common sense (and past experience) says that the property will sit empty for years before anything is rebuilt on the land.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 02:33:41 PM
Hmmm. I'm on board with you Duvaldude08. Can we at least actually figure out what will happen on both sites and how before bringing out the dynamite? For all we know, both parcels may not be needed for a convention center and the tower could be a reusable product (ex. hotel, apartments, etc.). This is exactly why downtown resembles a war zone now.
The current courthouse is possibly the most hellish occupied building in downtown Jax. It has extensive asbestos and rodent problems. I say tear it down. It is not going to be reused.
What +50 year old building doesn't have asbestos and rodents before renovation? Who pays the millions for demolition without a plan? Is that really the best use of limited public dollars right now?
I'm not crazy about the building but this literally sounds insane and more of the same type of planning that's turned downtown into a smoldering heap of failure over the last 60 years.
If something needs to be demoed lets start with the skelitol remains of the Berkman.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
What +50 year old building doesn't have asbestos and rodents before renovation? Who pays the millions for demolition without a plan? Is that really the best use of limited public dollars right now?
I'm not crazy about the building but this literally sounds insane and more of the same type of planning that's turned downtown into a smoldering heap of failure over the last 60 years.
So, you are advocating spending money on maintaining an empty shell downtown?
No, I'm advocating something that may be considered revolutionary around here.
1. Commit to a plan and quick redevelopment time line for the future of the site.
2. If that plan determines that demolition isn't necessary, immediately issue an RFP for what's not needed and let the private sector deal with it.
Under no circumstances is it prudent to have two huge additional downtown blocks looking like LaVilla for the next decade plus.
I agree with lake...several of us have been working on plans for a convention center down there as well as what to do with the surrounding area.
the reality is the courthouse building is pretty worthless, but the taller annex building could be repurposed into a hotel (possible Hyatt expansion) or apartments/condos....with retail on the ground floor.
the other option is to tear that building down as well and utilize that land for additional convention center space or a parking garage (also with ground floor retail) and air rights above for additional development.
but these are decisions that need to be made BEFORE any demolition occurs!
OMG, you folks are advocating the tear down of a building, in DOWNTOWN????? Have you lost all your marbles?
Sorry, just could not resist.
I'm all for massive amounts of TNT and debris field, bring the mother down!
Not so much about the tear down. Moreso, the reason, replacement costs, demolition costs and impact on the pedestrian scale environment of the downtown core.
yeah, the courthouse is disgusting, both inside and out. id rather see an open lot that that garbage. at least bay street would then have a view of the water :)
QuoteNot so much about the tear down. Moreso, the reason, replacement costs, demolition costs and impact on the pedestrian scale environment of the downtown core.
The courthouse will be a tricky demolition, since part of it sits on pilings the same structure that the townhomes of Berkman sit on. I am sure it will not be a simple throw of a switch either, City Hall backs right up against the Hyatt, so probably have to drop the courthouse, then City Hall onto the old courthouse location. Should be fun to watch!
Cool, a river view from Mark's & the Dive Bar.
I'm all for tearing it down if the plan calls for that.
But there should be a PLAN first. Why even waste the dynamite without that?
This isn't rocket surgery.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 02:45:58 PM
What +50 year old building doesn't have asbestos and rodents before renovation? Who pays the millions for demolition without a plan? Is that really the best use of limited public dollars right now?
I'm not crazy about the building but this literally sounds insane and more of the same type of planning that's turned downtown into a smoldering heap of failure over the last 60 years.
+1
There are plenty of empty spaces downtown...we don't need any more.
Lake you ask who pays millions for a demolition without a plan? That would be Jacksonville, Fl.
If we're talking about finances, the question should be how many years of mothballing does it take to equal the cost of demolition? Since I am hearing numbers in the millions for demolition, I imagine that equals many years of mothballing.
Quote from: dougskiles on February 23, 2012, 07:49:39 PM
If we're talking about finances, the question should be how many years of mothballing does it take to equal the cost of demolition? Since I am hearing numbers in the millions for demolition, I imagine that equals many years of mothballing.
Except that demolition is going to be required. Pay it now or pay it later. Mothballing is money down the drain.
^Unless of course they can use some element of the buildings in the next project, whatever it is, in which case demolition is not the answer.
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 23, 2012, 07:41:50 PM
Lake you ask who pays millions for a demolition without a plan? That would be Jacksonville, Fl.
Right! Its like, " Hey, we are THINKING about building a convention center, just go ahead and level everything. And if we cant get it built, it will be another huge gaping hole in downtown. No Big deal." LOL
Then they also have this theory that by tearing stuff down, you are getting it ready for "sale". Proprtyin our urban core is not exactly going like hot cakes. We have a ton of lots that are "ready for sale" right now and have been that way from 15 years. Look at the Brooklyn area. We leveled everything and now 15 years something MAY finally be built. And we wont even start on Lavilla.
It makes no sense to keep either of these buildings. They are not historic. They are ugly eyesores. Why not pay now to get rid of them both and the new convention center will not have to wait for any demo work to begin? They Hyatt has almost 1,000 rooms. They do not need the annex for anything like that. They need the room for a public/pprivate partnership of a new Convention Center. Having a big ugly buidling in the way does not help anything. In this one case only, tearing them down does make sense.
"Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves. Even when we had Penn Station, we couldn’t afford to keep it clean. We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed." - "Farewell to Penn Station," New York Times editorial, October 30, 1963
Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2012, 09:07:54 AM
Quote from: Dapperdan on February 24, 2012, 09:03:10 AM
It makes no sense to keep either of these buildings. They are not historic. They are ugly eyesores. Why not pay now to get rid of them both and the new convention center will not have to wait for any demo work to begin? They Hyatt has almost 1,000 rooms. They do not need the annex for anything like that. They need the room for a public/pprivate partnership of a new Convention Center. Having a big ugly buidling in the way does not help anything. In this one case only, tearing them down does make sense.
huh?
Despite the fact that they symbolize what would be Haydon Burns most significantly damaging effect on downtown, I think they are iconic, beautiful buildings.
And of course its well known that I think a Convention Center is a boondoggle without the leadership in place trained to develop and nurture specific conventions. I think ChrisW made the clear point that Convention Centers are probably what finally killed downtown.
But such considerations aside, They would make really awesome spaces for urban pioneers, business incubators, gallery and performance spaces.
Ive always loved the use of aggregates in the buildings, all the nit picky crafstmanship that went into creating the place, and the architecture is marvelous.
Wait, are people on here really talking about preserving that old POS courthouse?
Last time I was in town I got a 1972 Jacksonville pictorial that showed some very interesting baked tile designs on the outside of the Courthouse. The building has more architectural significance than I initially thought.
Quote from: Dapperdan on February 24, 2012, 09:03:10 AM
It makes no sense to keep either of these buildings. They are not historic. They are ugly eyesores. Why not pay now to get rid of them both and the new convention center will not have to wait for any demo work to begin? They Hyatt has almost 1,000 rooms. They do not need the annex for anything like that. They need the room for a public/pprivate partnership of a new Convention Center. Having a big ugly buidling in the way does not help anything. In this one case only, tearing them down does make sense.
The old city hall could possibly be suitable for a conversion into market rate urban apartments, similar to what was done with the Ashley Towers and Metropolitan Lofts buildings. It's ground level could easily be retail, dining, and entertainment uses with the existing green space becoming a square for outdoor events in the Bay Street entertainment district.
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/commerce/K001346.jpg)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc17827.jpg)
(http://fpc.dos.state.fl.us/reference/rc17829.jpg)
It would be foolish to pay to demolish something like this without a plan, especially if it's structurally sound.
Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2012, 09:07:54 AM
Despite the fact that they symbolize what would be Haydon Burns most significantly damaging effect on downtown, I think they are iconic, beautiful buildings.
And of course its well known that I think a Convention Center is a boondoggle without the leadership in place trained to develop and nurture specific conventions. I think ChrisW made the clear point that Convention Centers are probably what finally killed downtown.
But such considerations aside, They would make really awesome spaces for urban pioneers, business incubators, gallery and performance spaces.
Ive always loved the use of aggregates in the buildings, all the nit picky crafstmanship that went into creating the place, and the architecture is marvelous.
I agree. One generation's garbage can become another's treasure. But they'll never have the chance if we keep tearing stuff down. Recent history clearly demonstrates that premature demolition does nothing to speed up redevelopment. It does add to blight and a sense of emptiness in what should be the most dense part of our city.
(http://download.wapday.com/animation/ccontennt/6242-f/wrecking_ball.gif?__sid=UMZSWNN&lang=en&__mt=w)
I'm not even making a preservation argument in this case. I'm just saying its pretty foolish to pay taxpayer dollars to demolish anything of significant size without really knowing what you're going to do with the property and how that new use will be funded.
Downtown has enough craters. I'd rather see the millions going into demolishing something spent fixing up a Hemming Plaza, helping to add a streetcar, finish the riverwalk to Metropolitan Park or Memorial Park, etc. If the concern is the cost of maintaining these buildings then RFP the property and return it to the tax rolls. All I'm saying is use some common sense people.
Last, but not least, we've know for over a decade that the courthouse was moving and, despite the delays, the new courthouse has been under construction since 2008. Why in the world are we just waking up now and worrying about what to do with this site? This discussion should have taken place 5 to 10 years ago.
Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2012, 09:24:18 AM
Quote from: Kaiser Soze on February 24, 2012, 09:16:48 AM
Quote from: stephendare on February 24, 2012, 09:07:54 AM
Quote from: Dapperdan on February 24, 2012, 09:03:10 AM
It makes no sense to keep either of these buildings. They are not historic. They are ugly eyesores. Why not pay now to get rid of them both and the new convention center will not have to wait for any demo work to begin? They Hyatt has almost 1,000 rooms. They do not need the annex for anything like that. They need the room for a public/pprivate partnership of a new Convention Center. Having a big ugly buidling in the way does not help anything. In this one case only, tearing them down does make sense.
huh?
Despite the fact that they symbolize what would be Haydon Burns most significantly damaging effect on downtown, I think they are iconic, beautiful buildings.
And of course its well known that I think a Convention Center is a boondoggle without the leadership in place trained to develop and nurture specific conventions. I think ChrisW made the clear point that Convention Centers are probably what finally killed downtown.
But such considerations aside, They would make really awesome spaces for urban pioneers, business incubators, gallery and performance spaces.
Ive always loved the use of aggregates in the buildings, all the nit picky crafstmanship that went into creating the place, and the architecture is marvelous.
Wait, are people on here really talking about preserving that old POS courthouse?
um. yeah. they sure are.
People said the same thing about Klutho's buildings while they bulldozed and dynamited the shit out of them.
Why do you ask?
Klutho's buildings were beautiful. Far different from the courthouse. Age ain't going to change the fact that the courthouse is devoid of anything architecturally interesting (forgive me baked tiles). Its a big ugly box building sitting on very valuable property.
Then again, I may simply be expressing years of repressed feelings due to three failed marriages (never understood why you need to pay the state for a marriage license if a few short sentences are enough for Jesus) and a few activities that the State of Florida frowned upon.
If we can replace either or both buildings with something better, I say dynamite away. However, I'm not okay with just demolishing them without any firm plans for the sites whatsoever. Why even waste the money? Just think ahead a few steps, it's not that hard.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2012, 10:07:01 AM
If we can replace either or both buildings with something better, I say dynamite away. However, I'm not okay with just demolishing them without any firm plans for the sites whatsoever. Why even waste the money? Just think ahead a few steps, it's not that hard.
Agree...
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2012, 10:07:01 AM
If we can replace either or both buildings with something better, I say dynamite away. However, I'm not okay with just demolishing them without any firm plans for the sites whatsoever. Why even waste the money? Just think ahead a few steps, it's not that hard.
Why waste the money on mothballing?
^Why waste the money on demolition if there's no plan and an outside possibility that the buildings, or elements of them, can be used in a future project?
Quote from: Tacachale on February 24, 2012, 10:21:01 AM
^Why waste the money on demolition if there's no plan and an outside possibility that the buildings, or elements of them, can be used in a future project?
Because no "element" of either of those buildings will be reused. We all know that.
Eh, not sure the '70s will ever be considered as contributing anything other than ugly postmodern architecture, Saturday Nigh Fever, and low-grade cocaine. The '80s offered considerable advancement in all the above, but most importantly high grade yayo and rock ballads.
QuoteEh, not sure the '70s will ever be considered as contributing anything other than ugly postmodern architecture, Saturday Nigh Fever, and low-grade cocaine. The '80s offered considerable advancement in all the above, but most importantly high grade yayo and rock ballads.
LOL, I like this guy!
Blinded by the light...
Dressed up like a dude, another roller in the night
Wrapped up like a douche, I knew their owner every night.
Racked up like a douche, another lover in the night.
Wake up like a douche, or a rubber in the night.
Torn up like a douche, another stoner in the night.
Wrap up the old deuce, a Nutter Butter in the night.
Wrapped up like a douche, another rumor in the night.
Quote from: fieldafm on February 24, 2012, 12:21:32 PM
Blinded by the light...
Dressed up like a dude, another roller in the night
Wrapped up like a douche, I knew their owner every night.
Racked up like a douche, another lover in the night.
Wake up like a douche, or a rubber in the night.
Torn up like a douche, another stoner in the night.
Wrap up the old deuce, a Nutter Butter in the night.
Wrapped up like a douche, another rumor in the night.
Wait, are you trying to tell me those aren't the lyrics?
Sigh! Getting old. I remember the excitement when the new courthouse and city hall were built, replacing the abandoned warehouses and falling docks that were there. The land was worthless then and those buildings cleaned up a mess.
The buildings themselves are sort of bland, but we do not need another convention center. We have one too many now.
It makes good sense to have an action plan in place before swinging the wrecking ball. This is simply good logic.
Quote from: RiversideLoki on February 24, 2012, 12:29:10 PM
Quote from: fieldafm on February 24, 2012, 12:21:32 PM
Blinded by the light...
Dressed up like a dude, another roller in the night
Wrapped up like a douche, I knew their owner every night.
Racked up like a douche, another lover in the night.
Wake up like a douche, or a rubber in the night.
Torn up like a douche, another stoner in the night.
Wrap up the old deuce, a Nutter Butter in the night.
Wrapped up like a douche, another rumor in the night.
Wait, are you trying to tell me those aren't the lyrics?
It's actually "Revved up like a deuce, another runner in the night."
The line describes how Bruce Springsteen felt about breaking out as a musical performer. The "deuce" is a '32 Ford hot rod, same as in "Little Deuce Coupe".
Duval County Courthouse Annex? JK.
Quote from: Dog Walker on February 24, 2012, 04:39:00 PM
Sigh! Getting old. I remember the excitement when the new courthouse and city hall were built, replacing the abandoned warehouses and falling docks that were there. The land was worthless then and those buildings cleaned up a mess.
The buildings themselves are sort of bland, but we do not need another convention center. We have one too many now.
I hear you, brother. My main focus is that whatever ends up occupying that space be generating property taxes. Secondly, tearing down something that can be reused is just wasteful.
Not to mention that the office buildings we've turning out lately aren't much prettier than those two buildings.
Quote from: dougskiles on February 27, 2012, 02:53:21 PM
Not to mention that the office buildings we've turning out lately aren't much prettier than those two buildings.
+1! We have the dubious distinction of having the ugliest modern building in the country, 550 Water St., and the ugliest neo-classical building in the country, the new courthouse, here in Jacksonville.
Gotta wonder if it wouldn't be productive for some of our artist types on here to see if they could throw together a 3-D model of a convention center that would embrace one or both buildings. Might be interesting especially if the tower portions could be 'sold' to another Hyatt brand, or even other hotels. Such an interconnected complex is the way Oklahoma City's Convention Center is set up... Oh and it is virtually connected to the arena, Amtrak station, and a whole block from Bricktown or Myriad Gardens. Damn Jacksonville, beaten to the top by a bunch of 'Dumb Okies...'
Somebody get out their crayons, this could be cool! Wonder is Jason is lurking nearby? Lake? Stephen?
(i CAN SAY THAT BECAUSE OSU IS MY SCHOOL AND OKIE IS IN MY HERITAGE, HEE HEE)
OCKLAWAHA