Mass Transit Deja Vu?
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1722093377_xMX62kt-M.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville's Bob Mann on how major cities San Diego and Portland took a streetcar development plan similar to Jacksonville's up into the clouds of success, while we fiddled away a leadership opportunity. And - are we about to do it again?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-feb-mass-transit-deja-vu
Nice article. Bob would you like to ride the skyway? I'm serious. Not trying to make a joke about it. I'd welcome your insight.
Great article I wish someone from JTA read this blog or someone on this blogged worked for the JTA it would make jacksonville a better place.
Sure Noone, actually I find riding it when I'm downtown is superior to trying to find a handicap parking space and hiking a mile or two.
In short, I would have NEVER built it, but now that the really expensive stuff, operations center, junctions, car barn, etc. we should try to recover our loss by making it a feeder to a north bank regional streetcar system. The Skyway should be completed to San Marco and east Jacksonville, in order to effect a seamless trip from San Marco to the majority of north bank downtown destinations. Any further adventures should only require a single connection.
JTA executives read this site, but one has to wonder how many of the good folks at City Hall pay attention.
OCKLAWAHA
Sounds like the work of a true conservative southern city...always a little behind....like 80 years.
Quote from: jaxlore on February 23, 2012, 09:02:17 AM
Great article I wish someone from JTA read this blog or someone on this blogged worked for the JTA it would make jacksonville a better place.
No it wouldn't. JTA does not care about mass transit, and they especially don't care about streetcar. They care about building roads.
^which is why the gas tax expiring is a good thing, in terms how should JTA be utilized in the future to best benefit the community. It creates an opportunity to reevaluate how things are currently run and determine if changes in funding strategies and priorities are truly needed.
It cannot come soon enough.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 09:37:43 AM
^which is why the gas tax expiring is a good thing, in terms how should JTA be utilized in the future to best benefit the community. It creates an opportunity to reevaluate how things are currently run and determine if changes in funding strategies and priorities are truly needed.
Basically, you are saying that JTA is one fat, nasty, rotten, and spoiled baby, and we need to snatch the lollipop away from the baby in order to make the baby cry, bitch, whines?
For the record, I have NOTHING nice to say about JTA until the clobber-heads over there get their s*** together.
-Josh
Why not tell us how you REALLY feel wsansewjs? LOL!
Uncle Ock ;)
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2012, 10:08:48 AM
Why not tell us how you REALLY feel wsansewjs? LOL!
Uncle Ock ;)
For once, I am a rider of JTA Connexion and JTA. I can go on and rip a new hole in JTA by ranting all day, but I need time to compile a "nice" list where they should bend over and prepare to be spanked, starting with Michael Blaylock.
-Josh
Like the last 60 years of restrictive downtown development policies, I'm pretty much saying that what we have in place, clearly doesn't work. If it doesn't work, then why try to preserve the failed structure and do more of the same?
For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?
Nothing is going to change. I really had hoped that Mayor Brown would be stronger on some of these issues. He isn't really to concerned about improving transit, by not extending the gas tax and some how radically changing JTA by not doing this. He is just sticking to his "i don't support taxes or fees" mantra. To the detriment of those that voted for him and to the like of those who didn't vote for him.
KenFSU, good question. Ocklawaha, are you around?
the public has always been against the Skyway.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 23, 2012, 10:46:39 AM
For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?
While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...
JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.
Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.
Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned. The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.
Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 23, 2012, 10:46:39 AM
For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?
While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...
JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.
Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.
Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned. The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.
Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!
OCKLAWAHA
Sounds like a massive and severe case of diarrhea and all of us are STILL swimming in it after 30+ years with our own (air pollution) health, (pedestrian) safety, money (tax money), and (precious) time.
-Josh
If it makes you feel any better. Portland is currently in the process of destroying a lot of progress they've made with the TriMet system. Increasing fees, cutting lines... needless to say lots of locals are not happy about it.
Quote from: Garden guy on February 23, 2012, 09:24:14 AM
Sounds like the work of a true conservative southern city...always a little behind....like 80 years.
I used to wonder if the attitudes against public transit truly were a conservative thing as you suggest.
Then I saw firsthand the success Salt Lake has had with their system. Shortly after being awarded the Winter Olympics about 15 years ago, they went to work on a light rail system on an old, abandoned freight line (very similar to the S-line), called TRAX. After much success and public support, they have expanded the system (and are still expanding). They also have a commuter rail system called FrontRunner that connects the nearby cities.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb1.ctaa.org%2Fwebmodules%2Fwebarticles%2Fanmviewer.asp%3Fa%3D2783%26z%3D5&ei=xOFGT5HdOYvrtgeL9P2wDg&usg=AFQjCNGDQstwXxuXGVZnO77an6TDiHGT0w&sig2=RzLVog-rICfc4hdCwoChEQ (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC0QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweb1.ctaa.org%2Fwebmodules%2Fwebarticles%2Fanmviewer.asp%3Fa%3D2783%26z%3D5&ei=xOFGT5HdOYvrtgeL9P2wDg&usg=AFQjCNGDQstwXxuXGVZnO77an6TDiHGT0w&sig2=RzLVog-rICfc4hdCwoChEQ)
And have recently been awarded a streetcar project for a redeveloped portion of town (Sugar House).
http://www.shstreetcar.com/ (http://www.shstreetcar.com/)
They have a bus system with the main purpose of connecting neighborhoods to the fixed transit stops. What it does NOT do is duplicate the fixed transit system.
Now - I don't know of too many places that are more conservative than Salt Lake City, Utah. I believe now that it is just plain ol' ignorance and shortsightedness that has done us in.
^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system? They are an excellent model to follow.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2012, 12:19:12 PM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 23, 2012, 10:46:39 AM
For those who have been in Jacksonville for a long time, I'm curious as to how long it took for public sentiment to turn against the Skyway? Was it immediate? Mid-90's? Or is the almost universal bad attitude toward the Skyway a relatively recent phenomenon?
While there was a small group of grumblers, the same ones that complain that ice cream is cold, and ovens get hot, were against it from the start. I was in the forefront of the battle and there were thousands who bought the JTA sales pitch, hook line and sinker. My little group would hear it everywhere: "Why are you trying to hold us back?" "Trolley's are yesterdays technology, we're getting a elevated transit 'just like Chicago!'" "Why wouldn't you want this, in a couple of years, you'll be able to ride 'Rapid Transit' to the beach and Orange Park." "Only important big cities have elevated trains." etc...
JTA had so soaked the city with a confusilated mix of stories, it's hard to believe they were describing the same system. Some of the actual Skyway documents show the Skyway's stations labeled RAPID TRANSIT, while others say it would connect with a rapid transit. When asked about the future, we not only heard the 60,000 passengers a day number but likewise they continuously dropped words such as 'beaches', 'Gateway Mall,' and 'Orange Park.' They never really explained that what they were building was really nothing more then an very expensive airport style horizontal elevator. It should have been obvious, and I tried in vain to draw attention to the fact that riding that thing over the Matthews Bridge (another name that was dropped) all the way to the beach was a ridiculous scheme.
Once the 'new' wore off of it and the public realized of all of the routes they could have chosen, incompetence drove them to build from Central Station to the empty sandy blocks in LaVilla. And JTA continued to hold on to their ridership projections through the planning stages, explaining that people would park and ride it 2,000 feet into town. As the system neared it's phase one completion date, they revised the ridership figures straight down, over and over again.
Guess what? Ask their planners why they've never met a single one of their projections and you'll hear a story about how the city got cold feet and stopped pushing to complete it. You will also hear how 'they were shortchanged' in trying to get the routes built as planned. The Monorail conversion? If you've got to have this type of system, that was a smart move, although it just extended their excuse making.
Perhaps the ultimate fail was the Super Bowl Game. When JTA could have easily caught a grant to complete the stadium line, they thought that was a bad idea. Why? "Because it would be over crowded and make the city look bad," as if dumping fans from the south side hotels at Central Station didn't piss a few people off!
OCKLAWAHA
Thanks for the info Ock!
If I can pick your (or someone else's) brain just a little bit further, what about the Better Jacksonville Plan? Was that a tough sell to the city? Jacksonville residents have always seemed a little tight on the purse strings, did BJP face a lot of opposition?
Quote^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system? They are an excellent model to follow.
I got a few pics. Not great quality though on my phone.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2946zp0.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/35ksuiu.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/9jm43s.jpg)
^This photo was taken at 6:30 on a Saturday night. The train was mostly full from the Midvale station (where we got on - about 15 miles south of downtown) all the way to downtown. No NBA game that night, and not the commuter rush hour.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/1hsdgm.jpg)
^We bought a SuperPass for skiing at the local resorts and what did you know - it included FREE rides on their system.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/15xr7r7.jpg)
^No specific purpose for this photo... i couldn't sleep one morning and decided to go out for a run in the snow. Very surreal experience.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 24, 2012, 09:09:16 AM
Thanks for the info Ock!
If I can pick your (or someone else's) brain just a little bit further, what about the Better Jacksonville Plan? Was that a tough sell to the city? Jacksonville residents have always seemed a little tight on the purse strings, did BJP face a lot of opposition?
The Better Jacksonville Plan had the right elements go into it before it got off the ground. First and foremost, it was designed specifically to address concerns people already had (worsening traffic, aging facilities, sprawl, lack of park space, need for targeted economic development, etc), as well as to contain something that would appeal to people all over the city. The administration spent a huge amount of planning time before the proposal was ever announced.
It was also spearheaded by a mayor who'd wracked up a lot of goodwill and popularity, and was able to channel that into finding support for the plan. In addition to that, the administration put a lot of effort into grassroots campaigns and marketing - which was paid for by private donations rather than public money - to hear feedback and get people on board. In the end there was a huge amount of backing, including every city council member and every living former mayor.
As far as backlash goes, there was some noise from your typical small-minded cynics at the time, but the only organized opposition came from the "Concerned Taxpayers of Duval County", a sort of proto-Tea Party anti-tax group that included AM radio stalwart/human spleen Andy Johnson.
Most of the bad vibes some people have toward the BJP now came from later on, after Mayor Peyton botched certain items, most notably the Courthouse. The Courthouse was perhaps the least popular provision of the BJP (though we were required to build one whether we raised the tax or not), but Peyton turned it into an embarrassment.
In my estimation it would be harder to pull off something like this now. The anti-tax element is much better organized in these Tea Party days than they were in 2000. At the same time, though, "subsidizing" Downtown was the biggest bone of contention for BJP opposition, and there are a lot more folks who are really motivated to support downtown and the core than there were then. It would really depend on how well Brown does in rallying people to pull off a big picture item like that.
The Skyway was then and even upon reflection now... was always a federal money grab(and a huge boondoggle of a bunch of adjacent land grabs-one that even Bucky Clarkson is still trying to get money from decades later) that a lot of people thought stunk.
BJP was actually a much easier sell(it always appeased many, many groups-the characteristic of any good large-scale public works package).
Two things you have to keep in mind about both issues... both had STRONG LEADERSHIP behind it(Godbold with the Skyway, Delaney with BJP).
Still waiting on Mayor Brown to start kicking it up in the leadership department, and frankly was worried about that a way before the election.
Quote from: dougskiles on February 24, 2012, 09:12:18 AM
Quote^Did you get some pics of the Salt Lake City system? They are an excellent model to follow.
I got a few pics. Not great quality though on my phone.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2946zp0.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/35ksuiu.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/9jm43s.jpg)
^This photo was taken at 6:30 on a Saturday night. The train was mostly full from the Midvale station (where we got on - about 15 miles south of downtown) all the way to downtown. No NBA game that night, and not the commuter rush hour.
(http://i44.tinypic.com/1hsdgm.jpg)
^We bought a SuperPass for skiing at the local resorts and what did you know - it included FREE rides on their system.
(http://i40.tinypic.com/15xr7r7.jpg)
^No specific purpose for this photo... i couldn't sleep one morning and decided to go out for a run in the snow. Very surreal experience.
Salt Lake's system is awesome. Used it on a trip to Alta a few years back and really thought it was well designed.
How is Salt Lake City's downtown? Does it resemble Jacksonville's in terms of street level vibrancy? How about its burbs?
Couldn't tell you about the burbs.. but in DT SLC, I saw things such as bicycle parking on the street, food trucks and a lot of buildings that opened up to the street.
Also, it was winter time(but if you've ever been in Brooklyn in the winter time, it can get dirty)... but their downtown is clean, like spotless clean.
There is a big mall-like contraption there that has a bunch of stores inside(not like the Landing, more like a MUCH bigger version of the Atrium in the Wells Fargo Building) and from what I was told, an old mall was also once built downtown.
But bike parking, people walking, storefronts that activated the street and food trucks were all things I encountered... while it certainly wasn't in the top 10 of downtowns I have ever visited around the country... it was certainly leaps and bounds better than Jax. And I say that not to be negative towards Jax, as I am certainly very bullish on the VAST potential of this city.
My experiences were similar to fieldafm's. I was there on a Friday and Saturday night. There weren't crowds of people on the street, but there were significantly more than you would see in Jax. The restaurants we went to were full of people (and so were the ones we passed).
fieldafm - when you were there - did you go to Squatters Pub Brewery downtown? Loved the Full Suspension Pale Ale.
http://www.montgomeryplanning.org/viewer.shtm#http://www.montgomerycountymd.gov/content/dot/MCBRTStudyfinalreport110728.pdf
Montgomery County's BRT plan. It's quite comprehensive, although it's interesting to note that in this application, BRT is integrating with existing heavy rail, existing commuter rail and soon-to-arrive light rail.