Metro Jacksonville

Sic Transit Gloria Mundi!  

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1713642845_NRn5WXq-M.jpg)

Transportation consultant Robert Mann provides his opinion on recent news releases have put the Jacksonville Transportation Authority's mass transit operation in the spotlight, a huge award and and more flawed planning.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-feb-sic-transit-gloria-mundi-

Ock, great article.  Like you've stated, I also fine with the modified north corridor and I still believe commuter rail paralleling Philips Highway becomes less feasible and the implementation date extended more than a decade out, with the funding of Southeast BRT.  I'm also not crazy about the downtown BRT route's station placement on the Southbank because it competes with the Skyway. 

With that said, if someone asked me if I'd reject the BRT money allocated in President Obama's 2013 budget (if approved by Congress, which is still up in the air), I most likely wouldn't.  Similar to HSR on Interstate 4, I'm probably not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.  In the upcoming days, I'll submit an article that further explains my position from a holistic strategic planning standpoint.

I don't have any background in planning or transportation, so could you and Lake please explain to me why you both agree that the north corridor BRT is OK.  IMO, it's one of the few that is currently designed correctly.

Seriously I am afraid this BRT system will set up far back in our quest for rail.  I don't have faith that the BRT system (which I am not against) is bad, but designed wrong could be a disaster.  Given JTAs track record... I don't have much faith.  I look forward to your argument Lake. 

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 16, 2012, 08:04:34 AM
I don't have any background in planning or transportation, so could you and Lake please explain to me why you both agree that the north corridor BRT is OK.  IMO, it's one of the few that is currently designed correctly.

Because the bus rapid transit JTA is designing is nothing more than a branded bus line, like the Kansas City Max images shown below:

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968122049_Va5B6-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968121835_zAjvS-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968126405_JuPBu-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/968131004_HanR7-M.jpg)

More pics of what the north and south corridors will look like: http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-aug-a-look-at-brt-the-kansas-city-max

We were successful in getting JTA to modify their previous plan, which would have been a dedicated bus/HOV lane in the middle of I-95, with significant stretches that would be elevated.  That change alone, has saved this community hundreds of millions and years in implementation time, although we'll never get the credit for stirring the hornest's nest to alter the old course.

(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/images/commuter_rail/2-1-07/BRT-Elevated-graphic.jpg)
A conceptual cross section from a segment of JTA's old BRT plan.

With this said, I'm fine with a branded bus route for both of the BRT corridors in line to receive 80% federal funding.  When implemented, a first time rider will know right off the bat that a bus will come every 10-15 minutes along this two routes and that it won't veer from those "straight" line paths.

Like you, I believe this can be done on the cheap with existing bus route modification for both corridors.  However, the +$22 million for each corridor is not out of line with the costs paid for similar "enhanced" branded bus corridors in other communities like the Las Vegas Max and Kansas City Max.  JTA just happens to keep shooting themselves in the foot by not getting truly educated on the different types of transit technologies and selling them to the community for what they really do (ex. this isn't a substitute for rail, its just reliable bus service that every metropolitan community should be providing).

What I don't like about the Southeast corridor is the funding source.  Going to the Feds for handouts is a very time consuming and competitive process.  I feel that if you're going to ask for federal dollars, you shouldn't do it for two transit systems serving the same corridor (especially, when the federal money will come from the same funding program).  Thus, it's my opinion that we've screwed the pooch on commuter rail paralleling Philips for at least a decade and that the first commuter rail line should now be the Southwest corridor to Clay County.

Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 16, 2012, 08:11:39 AM
Seriously I am afraid this BRT system will set up far back in our quest for rail.  I don't have faith that the BRT system (which I am not against) is bad, but designed wrong could be a disaster.  Given JTAs track record... I don't have much faith.  I look forward to your argument Lake. 

You've put much more faith in JTA than I have.  JTA isn't going to deliver any type of rail in Jacksonville anytime soon.  They have no money and its not one of their higher priorities.  Plus, even the commuter rail plans they do have can't be matched federally without local money.

Guess what's the only thing in this community set up to supply JTA's commuter rail plans with the local funding match they need to compete for federal dollars?  It's the Mobility Plan and Fee that council placed a moratorium on.  It funds a few miles of streetcar 100% (don't need JTA at all to get this done) and it generates the 25% local match for JTA to be able to compete for FTA New Starts money to get their commuter rail plans off paper and into reality.  As long as council refuses to collect that fee, excluding the FEC/Amtrak project, there's no rail coming to town.

We are a very unenlightened city run by ignorant (or maybe genius) people who, for whatever reason, are trying in every way to make sure we never have rail. Someone at JTA is getting very rich building roads.
Someday, in the future when gas is 5.00 or more a gallon, and that day is coming, we will have no alternative transportation and the middle class in particular will keep getting poorer.
Even if the auto industry makes more fuel efficient cars the price of gas will just go up to compensate. At least if there are alternatives, which of course should include buses, people can cut expenses by drastically cutting the maintenance of keeping a car on the road on a daily basis.

a few thoughts:

1. from what I understand, the north and southeast corridors are mean to operate as one...providing connections for people from their homes on the northwest side of town to jobs on the southside.

2. there will be 8 buses for each corridor, so the plan actually includes the purchase of 16 new diesel hybrid buses.

3. yes, implementing the southeast BRT will set commuter rail on that corridor back many years....but given this city's singular focus on all things port, chances weren't good that commuter rail would ever plemented on this freight-heavy corridor.

4. Many cities are now doing BRT-lite...Tampa's first line opens next year...Orlando is planning for it...and even Gainesville has a study out for mixed-traffic BRT.

5. All this said, the President's busget has very little chance of getting through Congress....so JTA probably won't be getting this money anytime soon.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
a few thoughts:

1. from what I understand, the north and southeast corridors are mean to operate as one...providing connections for people from their homes on the northwest side of town to jobs on the southside.

2. there will be 8 buses for each corridor, so the plan actually includes the purchase of 16 new diesel hybrid buses.

3. yes, implementing the southeast BRT will set commuter rail on that corridor back many years....but given this city's singular focus on all things port, chances weren't good that commuter rail would ever plemented on this freight-heavy corridor.

4. Many cities are now doing BRT-lite...Tampa's first line opens next year...Orlando is planning for it...and even Gainesville has a study out for mixed-traffic BRT.

5. All this said, the President's busget has very little chance of getting through Congress....so JTA probably won't be getting this money anytime soon.

A Few more questions to ponder:

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
a few thoughts:

1. from what I understand, the north and southeast corridors are mean to operate as one...providing connections for people from their homes on the northwest side of town to jobs on the southside.

So we still have a route that goes from Wal-Mart @ 295 & Lem Turner to the Avenues Mall via Phillips Hwy - it's a bastardized combination of the L8 North of Rosa Park and the L7 South - as I've stated multiple times before - run 15 minutes apart from one another.  The only change that I see is instead of the L7 connecting people with actual business areas south of Rosa Park, this glorified Express Shuttle will travel the length of Phillips hwy - not exactly the boon of employment.  So to get anywhere on southside blvd, baymeadows, JTB, etc.  these people will have to catch another bus.  Where do all the busses originate?  Ding Ding - Rosa Park.  They will have to transfer from their glorious shuttle downtown (which won't even be downtown anymore, they have to catch the skyway from the convention center to rosa park) to get on the bus that will actually carry them somewhere close to where they work.  Genius.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
3. yes, implementing the southeast BRT will set commuter rail on that corridor back many years....but given this city's singular focus on all things port, chances weren't good that commuter rail would ever plemented on this freight-heavy corridor.

You're damn right it will.  Let's ask this question, "How much would $19M get us in the way of ROW usage and new track (or lease of current track) and a few stations down that corridor?"   For $19M, you could contract Gator City for 8 Years to provide a dedicated shuttle bus from Rosa Park to the Avenues with door to door service for within a 2 mile radius of the main strip.  BTW, that's a flat rate of $3/mile at 2,168 miles driven per day!  So in actuality, we could probably get a lot more than what I suggested.

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
4. Many cities are now doing BRT-lite...Tampa's first line opens next year...Orlando is planning for it...and even Gainesville has a study out for mixed-traffic BRT.

How do those other cities' public transportation systems currently rank compared to ours?  It seems to me like the kids who put $10k worth of stereo equipment and speakers into a $2K car.  Why don't you spend the money and get yourself a nicer ride?  You can always add the Blaupunkt later?

Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 17, 2012, 08:24:33 AM
A Few more questions to ponder:

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
a few thoughts:

1. from what I understand, the north and southeast corridors are mean to operate as one...providing connections for people from their homes on the northwest side of town to jobs on the southside.

So we still have a route that goes from Wal-Mart @ 295 & Lem Turner to the Avenues Mall via Phillips Hwy - it's a bastardized combination of the L8 North of Rosa Park and the L7 South - as I've stated multiple times before - run 15 minutes apart from one another.  The only change that I see is instead of the L7 connecting people with actual business areas south of Rosa Park, this glorified Express Shuttle will travel the length of Phillips hwy - not exactly the boon of employment.  So to get anywhere on southside blvd, baymeadows, JTB, etc.  these people will have to catch another bus.  Where do all the busses originate?  Ding Ding - Rosa Park.  They will have to transfer from their glorious shuttle downtown (which won't even be downtown anymore, they have to catch the skyway from the convention center to rosa park) to get on the bus that will actually carry them somewhere close to where they work.  Genius.

I assume, the entire network of lines traveling these routes will be modified in some manner.  Also, JTA's vision of this BRT corridor is to basically be a bus route spine.  So in addition to a branded bus going up and down this corridor, local buses will also use it.  It will be interesting to see how they pull this off.  Nevertheless, the lion's share of the $38 million will go to pay for new buses to add to their fleet.  Other than that, most of the associated improvements could be made with simple modification of existing assets.

Quote

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
3. yes, implementing the southeast BRT will set commuter rail on that corridor back many years....but given this city's singular focus on all things port, chances weren't good that commuter rail would ever plemented on this freight-heavy corridor.

You're damn right it will.  Let's ask this question, "How much would $19M get us in the way of ROW usage and new track (or lease of current track) and a few stations down that corridor?"   For $19M, you could contract Gator City for 8 Years to provide a dedicated shuttle bus from Rosa Park to the Avenues with door to door service for within a 2 mile radius of the main strip.  BTW, that's a flat rate of $3/mile at 2,168 miles driven per day!  So in actuality, we could probably get a lot more than what I suggested.

The problem with this is, none of JTA's commuter rail proposals would be able to land any federal funding.  They haven't completed the necessary studies to even submit an application, and they don't have the local/state money set aside for warrant a federal match.  Which goes back to my earlier post about the only thing that will bring any form of local rail to this community this decade will be the mobility plan.  Unfortunately, it can't perform its intended magic with the council's moratorium.

Quote

Quote from: tufsu1 on February 16, 2012, 09:02:58 PM
4. Many cities are now doing BRT-lite...Tampa's first line opens next year...Orlando is planning for it...and even Gainesville has a study out for mixed-traffic BRT.

How do those other cities' public transportation systems currently rank compared to ours?  It seems to me like the kids who put $10k worth of stereo equipment and speakers into a $2K car.  Why don't you spend the money and get yourself a nicer ride?  You can always add the Blaupunkt later?

[/quote]

There's nothing wrong with BRT as long was we realize its just enhanced bus service.  It will never be a replacement for fixed rail, stimulate the economic development and the job creation fixed transit brings or generate the significant image boost to the community it serves.  What it can do is effectively feed riders into a fixed rail spine, such as LA's Orange Line does for its Red Line and eventually what Orlando's LYMMO will do for it's commuter rail line (which is also in line to get funding from the President's budget).  Nevertheless, this might all be moot because who really believes that Congress is going to approve his budget as proposed?

I have no faith in the JTA or the city in improving mass transit and getting real soutions implemented.  By all means, lets waste as much money and get nothing for it.  Theer obviously is no plan for rail.  I guess they think the BRT will have as much impact as rail oriented development.  The only impact I have seen with BRT is eliminating the parking at the Bargain House of Fleas on Blanding.

Look at the argument from another view point, the numbers do the talking, the eyes do the selling.

LET'S GO TO DALLAS:

ROUTE LENGTH: 21 MILES

The city of Denton is the county seat of Denton County, Texas in the United States. Its population was 113,383 according to the 2010 census,[4] making it the eleventh largest city in the Dallasâ€"Fort Worth metroplex. Geographically, it is situated 38 miles (61 km) south of the Oklahomaâ€"Texas border and 39 miles (63 km) northwest of Dallas. Carrollton is a city in Denton County, Dallas County and Collin County in the U.S. state of Texas. As of the 2010 census, the city's population was 119,097.

RAIL MILES:

DALLAS - 0
Carrolton - 27 (Connect with Green Line LRT)
Denton - 48



LET'S GO TO JACKSONVILLE:

Clay County is a county located in the U.S. state of Florida. As of 2010, the population was 190,895. Its county seat is Green Cove Springs, Florida. Clay County is part of the Greater Jacksonville Metropolitan area. City: Green Cove Springs, FL
Clay County, FL. Estimated zip code population in 2009: 24,310. City: Orange Park, FL. Clay County, FL. Estimated 3 zip codes population in 2009:127,365. Palatka (pronounced puh-lat-kuh) is a city in Putnam County, Florida, United States. The population was 10,558 at the 2010 census. It is the county seat of Putnam County. Palatka is the principal city of the Palatka Micropolitan Statistical Area, which is home to 72,893 residents.

Rail Miles:
Jacksonville - 0 (Connect with Skyway, Bus, BRT, Greyhound)
Yukon/NAS - 9
Green Cove Springs - 30
Palatka - 56



Actually regardless of the 'professional studies' I believe that the CSX 'A' line south from downtown to Green Cove Springs is the rail route that would be the most successful. Toss all of the demographics aside because when the Navy Base is filling up or letting off traffic it's pure gridlock. So your stuck in stop and go traffic at the light at Yukon/Roosevelt, inching along, a sudden blast of a distinct air horn, and to your left a single RDC-BUDD car (re-manufactured) is laying a pall of diesel over the roof top and accelerating to 60 mph. Tomorrow, you'll park the car at San Juan and BY-GOD RIDE THE TRAIN TO THE BASE, a Navy shuttle will do the rest. THIS will be the the route that sees success as big as anything, or any one train in Miami or Orlando.

Denton, Texas, did it, as you can see, and the entire route is paralleled by Interstate 35. The route to Palatka is paralleled by a crowded US 17, and you can see the train in your misery.

"TAMAIMI TRAILWAYS OCK"

To be fair, Dallas is also a metro area of 5+ million people...providing examples of smaller cities (which has been done here) would be useful.

"Any major American city that solely relies on streets and highways for its transportation network will fail to remain competitive and will falter economically over time. That includes cities with bus transit systems that rely on the same streets and highways."

Here is link to an excellent article in Next American City:
http://americancity.org/buzz/entry/3361/