WJCT TV and WJCT radio is airing First Coast Forum: A Downtown Dilemma on Thursday, February 23rd at 8:00 PM. I heard it on the radio at lunch. It will be a discussion about whether or not a vibrant downtown is needed, etc. I didn't see any program details on the WJCT website, and don't have time to call them, but wanted to get this posted for those who want to put it on their calendars.
Here's the official announcement. I'm looking forward to this ;):
QuoteFirst Coast Forum: The Downtown Dilemma
LIVE: Thursday, February 23 at 8pm on WJCT-TV and 89.9 WJCT Public Radio!
Historically, downtown and urban cores have served as the economic and cultural markers of a city’s vibrancy. Though downtown redevelopment of Jacksonville has been the subject of political debates, is a downtown core still relevant to a city’s growth? On the next First Coast Forum a panel of experts discuss whether downtown growth is key or whether the trends lie in the suburbs. Don’t miss First Coast Forum: The Downtown Dilemma, January 19 at 8pm on WJCT-TV and 89.9 WJCT-FM!
Panelists
Tony Allegretti, Consultant and Entrepreneur
Richard Clark, Jacksonville City Council
Ennis Davis, Urban Planner
Abel Harding, Columnist, Florida Times-Union
Terry Lorince, Executive Director, Downtown Vision
Don Shea, Executive Director, Jacksonville Civic Council
Jack Twatchman, Owner, Burro Bar
I'm going to be in LA when this is on air. Are you guys going to post the recording on here? I would love to hear this.
^Is anyone going to be seriously arguing that downtown is not important?
Thats a stacked deck if I ever saw one. Maybe Slieman, Hogan or a Skinner should be in there too for a counter aregument.
Quote from: Tacachale on February 18, 2012, 09:38:58 AM
^Is anyone going to be seriously arguing that downtown is not important?
That is the problem with Jacksonville. The people here have killed downtown with ambivalence, not active antagonism. It is a whisper campaign. Only brave (not to mention, ignorant) souls like Hogan dare to speak what they really think about downtown.
I don't think they do think!
Quote from: John P on February 18, 2012, 03:01:23 PM
Thats a stacked deck if I ever saw one. Maybe Slieman, Hogan or a Skinner should be in there too for a counter aregument.
well Councilman Clark is on the panel and he fits in with the "Hogan philosophy".
I actually provided some names to WJCT for the forum....and Ennis will be great!
btw...First Coast Connect on Wednesday morning will have a segment promoting the Thursday night event....tune into 89.9 FM at 9am Wednesday.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 18, 2012, 09:37:05 AM
I'm going to be in LA when this is on air. Are you guys going to post the recording on here? I would love to hear this.
It will also be re-aired on Friday and Sunday evenings....and you may be able to watch/listen online...check here
http://www.wjctondemand.org/
What happened to the Allegretti thread?
Who needs a building permit? They've been passing them out like candy for years. No forsight. No thought. Just pay your bill or kiss the ass of someone that'll pass that permit right through.
Reminder....downtown will be the topic of discusion on First Coast Connect tomorrow....tune into 89.9 FM at 9am.
And then the First Coast Forum will go in depth on downtown Thursday nighta t 8pm....tune in 89.9 or WJCT TV on Thursday.
Both can also be heard online at http://www.wjctondemand.org/
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2012, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: John P on February 18, 2012, 03:01:23 PM
That's a stacked deck if I ever saw one. Maybe Slieman, Hogan or a Skinner should be in there too for a counter aregument.
well Councilman Clark is on the panel and he fits in with the "Hogan philosophy".
I actually provided some names to WJCT for the forum....and Ennis will be great!
btw...First Coast Connect on Wednesday morning will have a segment promoting the Thursday night event....tune into 89.9 FM at 9am Wednesday.
tufsu1 heard you on the radio this morning with Melissa Ross on First Coast Connect. Had some good points. Touched on Cecil Commerce, The courthouse and what to do with the old courthouse and possible convention center. One caller mentioned that the Landing was supposed to have been the answer. Another caller from San Diego and the lack of organic spontaneity with vendors. And Melissa Ross had her own Times Union column about food trucks. and then you mention that it takes decades to implement the legislation to move things forward. And that's where I say Bingo to you.
Legislation!
The Public Trust has just been crushed in this community and its just wave after wave of legislative protectionism. I hope someone asks Clark do you still have the memo from Ron Barton two years ago warning the council about Shipyards/Landmar before the bankruptcy? And its not just Clark. Ask any councilmember that was on the council two years ago. I'm still waiting to hear back from Redman on the same exact question. 2010-604, then 2011-560
Legislation!
2010-675 and one Finance Amendment
Legislation!
2011-364 and 30 yr. lease for a buck a year
Legislation!
2010-856- Transient vendor Ban-That will promote Downtown.
Legislation!
The legislature is amending the charter and paving the way for an Independent Downtown Authority. Total Govt. takeover. New boundaries. 2003-627. Who wants to be a 501-c?
The Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier can still be legislatively protected and outside the control of this yet established Independent Authority and can be added to this cycle of FIND projects if for no other reason then to show the Governor, the commissioners of FIND and the other 66 counties in the state of Florida that Jacksonville's Downtown is OPEN FOR BUSINESS.
So who wants to go fishing under our brand new no fishing signs?
Soon we can be telling the world.
"I am DOWNTOWN and why you aren't"
Can I offer a brief plug for the core?
The upcoming “The Downtown Dilemma†will discuss the question, “Is a downtown core still relevant to a city’s growth?†Is this is a valid question, as some questions are nonsense, gaining support as to their validity simply because they are written. The “downtown core†defines a spot, and the term “relevant†is valid, as it defines the relationship between the city core and the city’s growth.
But what is a “city’s growthâ€, and is it always to be desired? Does our city include all the suburbs, or is it limited to the old city boundaries, or to the inner core? Is a city growing when its thousands of square miles are filled in with malls and homes and roads to the county borders? Can we continue to pay for the huge expense of infrastructure in roads and utilities which sprawl demands? Is growth assumed to be a good thing, just because it is the habit in nature? What about our city’s stability and strength, and quality of life, all of which have little to do with growth?
Continual growth is absurd, as it leads to infinity. Our careless growth has resulted in a weak infrastructure, with holes and fractures, empty buildings, vacant lots, and too many parking lots. We suffer now from the consequences of our rush to grow, to overbuild, to speculate, to get rich at any cost. Our careless policies have encouraged growth away from the city core, starving it, abandoning it, killing it.
We know the causes of our city’s abandoned condition, and we now endure the stagnation on the path to vibrancy, but can anyone imagine a condition wherein we allow our city core to remain mostly abandoned indefinitely?
Perhaps a better question might be, “Is a downtown core still relevant to a city’s strength, stability, and quality of life?†It is time to slow the sprawl, to gather what we have, to contemplate the city center, the core, and to build upon it, so that our city can become a city of strength, a symbol for all citizens to be proud of.
The suburban communities and office parks are many, and they are all the same. Only the old city core, once brought to a condition of vibrancy and beauty, can offer to everyone a sense of pride, a sense of unity, and a source of real strength and stability.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 18, 2012, 08:52:38 PM
Quote from: John P on February 18, 2012, 03:01:23 PM
Thats a stacked deck if I ever saw one. Maybe Slieman, Hogan or a Skinner should be in there too for a counter aregument.
well Councilman Clark is on the panel and he fits in with the "Hogan philosophy".
Yup and someone like that wants to represent us in US congress :o
It's funny that Jacksonville, other then any other Florida city is having this discussion. Of course my take is from a transportation point of view. Unlike Oklahoma City, Atlanta, Charlotte, Orlando, etc. Jacksonville's unique geography 'forces downtown on it's citizenry.
In Oklahoma City for example, there is a checkerboard of broad avenues, arrow straight, reaching far out into the suburbs. Want to go downtown? Easy, just grab your favorite arterial zip toward town and turn in the direction of the skyscrapers.
Straight lines don't work in Jacksonville, our majestic river and it's tributary's dictate that all roads funnel toward a central point and downtown Jacksonville is that point. It's hard to imagine a scenario where all of Oklahoma City's roads would be squeezed into such a small place, being in the Great Plains Oklahoma City is on the edge of the 'Great American Desert.' Most of OKC's arterial roads just blow right across a couple of rivers which are normally an eighth of a mile of sand, broken by a tiny trickle of water. While these rivers can become enraged monsters, it is quite rare, and doesn't pose any real problem in crossing them.
Jacksonville roads are shaped more like an hour glass with the tiny center being downtown. We can't just pop a bridge across the sand on the St. Johns River. So downtown probably gets more pass through traffic then any of these other cities and to me that spells opportunity. Viva Downtown!
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 21, 2012, 08:46:58 PM
Reminder....downtown will be the topic of discusion on First Coast Connect tomorrow....tune into 89.9 FM at 9am.
And then the First Coast Forum will go in depth on downtown Thursday nighta t 8pm....tune in 89.9 or WJCT TV on Thursday.
Both can also be heard online at http://www.wjctondemand.org/
great to hear you 'in person' tufsu! You command much institutional knowledge,very educational.
KG/aka NM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 23, 2012, 08:52:28 AM
Jacksonville roads are shaped more like an hour glass with the tiny center being downtown. We can't just pop a bridge across the sand on the St. Johns River. So downtown probably gets more pass through traffic then any of these other cities and to me that spells opportunity.
That's a great point, Ock! So, the question for you (and hopefully the panel on tonight's program) is, how do we get people to stop downtown? Whether they're tourists on their way to see the Mouse, or locals passing by downtown on their way home, shopping, etc.--how do we get them to spend a few hours downtown?
I think that too much is made of getting people to spend the day downtown. When I lived in Nashville, I would go downtown just to grab dinner just like someone in Jacksonville might head to University or Baymeadows for dinner.
In short, it (and the surrounding urban core neighborhoods) is important if this city cares anything about being economically viable. It's important if we want to get past the annual budget cut discussions of closing schools, libraries, and pension fights.
That whole area is built for two to three times the population density that exists there today. The street grid, sidewalks, schools, parks, libraries, and building fabric (what's left of it) is already in place. It's literally the only area in this sprawled out city where significant growth can be accommodated without first investing hundreds of millions into public infrastructure.
Now, how you properly drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be.
Well, we could incent the department stores to come back downtown if we had not already filled a lot of their spaces with government buildings that cost taxpayers money instead of generating it. :-) However, there are store fronts available still. How about boutique department stores? Why couldn't Penneys, Sears or Belks open a small store front with just clothing? Their most popular lines. Or some of the popular mall stores open a storefront downtown? We'd have to accommodate free parking, like the burbs, but it could be done.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
Now, how you properly drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be.
I think that you've hit this nail on the head several times, Lakelander, but removing a lot of the needless restrictions and regulations is the first step. Government needs to get out the way and let the market work. You think this idea wouldn't be so hard to sell in a city as conservative as Jacksonville, but every city department seems to want to keep sticking their nose into everything that every business tries to do.
Our city leaders have been too hung up on the one-trick pony--finding some big development to come in and "save" downtown. Well, decades later, it still hasn't come. Let's create an environment where the mom-and-pop businesses--the life blood of any urban area--can succeed.
But, like you say, we'll always have a fight about this issue.
^JaxByDefault, your solution is actually the most sound, simple, affordable, and effective one out there. The city's worst enemy to a vibrant downtown has been itself. It wasn't white flight or the suburbs. Downtown has been choked by two many restrictive policies that have made it harder to incubate small business growth in favor of urban renewal related expensive gimmick projects over the years. Attempting to lobby the value of downtown to people who never wanted to be there anyway (the majority of those who live in the suburbs) is a complete waste of time, imo. There's nothing wrong with marketing but if you don't deal with the real issue first, it's not going to really accomplish anything truly effective and game changing. The best thing the city could do is modify policy and simply get out the way.
As a Jacksonville native and one of the new businesses at the Landing, I would like to let all of you know that I feel that there is the start of a downtown business resurgence in Jacksonville. The Landing is trying to bring in new boutiques for a new downtown shopping experience. Jacksonville is the prettiest City in the Southeast and has so much to offer but somehow through lack of leadership, passivity or simply no planning, Jacksonville is suffering the ills of a downtown that is not half as vibrant as it was 20 years ago. Urban sprawl didn't cause all of these woes; should the blame be placed on ourselves for not supporting our local stores? Please support small businesses in downtown Jacksonville, it will help spark new businesses and eateries and therefore help all of downtown.
I have noticed all the new stores that have opened in the Landing. Your wing of the Landing is actually almost full. If only it were more visible from the street.
One of the overlooked issues is not properly understanding how we got to this point before brainstorming for redevelopment solutions. Downtown grew because of a location where the rail and maritime industries interchanged. Between the wharfs, steamships, passenger trains, freight depots, and associated services, those industries funneled thousands of people from various walks of life right into the heart of the city. Because of them, several hotels and a red light district opened. That critical mass of created a market for retail. Couple that with a 60 mile streetcar network that funneled people between various neighborhoods with downtown as the central transfer point.
So how does downtown slowly decline over 50 years?
1. The maritime industry is relocated in the 1950s name of cleaning up blight.
2. The 1960s brings a decline of rail traffic and by 1974, we've relocated all of our rail facilities (passenger and freight) right out of downtown. Between these two industries, thousands of people go right along with them. For example, in 1944, the train station employed 2,000 people alone.
3. With no maritime and rail to bring people in, the hotels close in droves throughout the 1970s.
4. With no maritime, rail, tourist, etc. a nail is driven into the heart of the retail sector by the mid 1980s. Keep in mind, the original wave of suburban malls were developed in the 1950s and 1960s, yet downtown as a retail scene enjoyed some of its best days during the same period. However, the addition of parking meters and toll bridges weren't exactly growth stimulating moves.
5. Also during this continuous slow decline, instead of dealing with the issues ultimately caused by removing the two original economic anchors, we dive into decades of failed redevelopment strategies (many of which, had more to do with racial/cultural separation than building a vibrant downtown). A prime example would be the separation of Springfield and Downtown by a twisted network of one-way streets and the elimination of Hanson Town.
6. Those failed projects typically ended up with the demolition of various structures and neighborhoods, which in term, continues to remove people from the core. An example would be the "cleansing of LaVilla" during the 1990s.
The return won't happen overnight but the easiest thing to do is to remove the policies placed on the area during its declining years to allow for personal innovation and creativity to happen within a compact setting. It's worked in other communities.
Long term, from a public investment and planning perspective, it should be less about trying to get a specific retailer or grocery store downtown and more about repairing the economic base (bringing amtrak back and allowing more maritime related uses are good starts) and lost connectivity between surrounding neighborhoods. Remember cities are organic in nature. You just can't say I want to turn this particular street into an entertainment district or I want a hotel to locate right at this exact spot (which this city repeatedly has done in the past) and it happens. For example, just look at the CoRK area of Riverside. In a few years, with no city help, a ton of artist and two microbreweries have moved into the area. All of which, would probably have loved to located within downtown, if it were feasible for them to do so.
Unfortunately, this means admitting failure and implementing planning strategies that don't really sound sexy or appealing.
Ennis is doing a great job tonight....I just wish they'd figure out the audio for the WJCT-TV (the radio is fine)
btw...wonder what happened to the 3 other panelists that were supposed to be there...maybe they're coming on for the second half
ah ha...answers that question...they switched folks out
It would be nice to be able to HEAR it. What is UP with the audio?
Haha no joke, the audio is whack.
Nice so far....
the odd part is Richard Clark was supposed to be the anti-guy....and, refreshingly, he's been very positive
Just getting back in. Completely unexpected script. I thought it would be more of a debate but it was a discussion with each panelist answering different questions specifically addressed to them. I was pleasantly surprised with Councilman Clark's position and loved Jack's (Burro Bar & Bag's) enthusiasm. Anyway, I hear that 80% of it couldn't be heard. They're going to play it again next Thursday night.
Did good Lake. Although the forum was somewhat interesting, it seemed to rehash old stuff. Perhaps I'm just impatient for solid decisions, moves, and action. Forgive me but I like to get sh#t done. I guess one couldn't fault the moderator. What else could she have done? At least the forum might have made some of the outlying people aware of the city core.
BTW, I found myself today downtown, and needing a white shirt and a tie for an event late in the afternoon. I walked Laura and Adams, then walked to the landing. No white shirt or tie at any store. I then drove the Roosevelt Square to Steinmart to purchase a shirt and two ties.
This is not to say that a men's clothing store could survive in the core with the current low level of foot traffic. However, it does illustrate just how sparse our core is regarding "things" people need at times. I have often wondered what retail will survive in the downtown core right now; that is, with the current level of foot traffic. If I could determine what "would" survive, I would try to convince someone to open whatever it was. I don't have the time, money, or energy to open another store.
^ from what I hear, there will be a new men's clothing store opening at the Landing soon
Quote from: ronchamblin on February 23, 2012, 09:50:55 PM
Did good Lake. Although the forum was somewhat interesting, it seemed to rehash old stuff. Perhaps I'm just impatient for solid decisions, moves, and action. Forgive me but I like to get sh#t done. I guess one couldn't fault the moderator. What else could she have done? At least the forum might have made some of the outlying people aware of the city core.
It was structured that way. It was hard to veer off the chosen path. I thought there was too much focus on the office component and SJTC. SJTC is a mall. Every city has them. It's success or failure really has nothing to do with the condition of the urban core.
Quote from: JaxByDefault on February 23, 2012, 12:39:17 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 12:04:07 PM
Now, how you properly drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be.
I think that you've hit this nail on the head several times, Lakelander, but removing a lot of the needless restrictions and regulations is the first step. Government needs to get out the way and let the market work. You think this idea wouldn't be so hard to sell in a city as conservative as Jacksonville, but every city department seems to want to keep sticking their nose into everything that every business tries to do.
Our city leaders have been too hung up on the one-trick pony--finding some big development to come in and "save" downtown. Well, decades later, it still hasn't come. Let's create an environment where the mom-and-pop businesses--the life blood of any urban area--can succeed.
But, like you say, we'll always have a fight about this issue.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 23, 2012, 01:01:22 PM
^JaxByDefault, your solution is actually the most sound, simple, affordable, and effective one out there. The city's worst enemy to a vibrant downtown has been itself. It wasn't white flight or the suburbs. Downtown has been choked by two many restrictive policies that have made it harder to incubate small business growth in favor of urban renewal related expensive gimmick projects over the years. Attempting to lobby the value of downtown to people who never wanted to be there anyway (the majority of those who live in the suburbs) is a complete waste of time, imo. There's nothing wrong with marketing but if you don't deal with the real issue first, it's not going to really accomplish anything truly effective and game changing. The best thing the city could do is modify policy and simply get out the way.
How you (PROPERLY) drive redevelopment and investment is where the fight will be. THAT IS TRUE!
Who is next to kayak Hogans Creek and McCoys Creek within our Downtown Urban Waterway Dilemma Destinations?
At last nights Jacksonville city council meeting I mentioned this opportunity to council president Joost. Especially in light of Mayor Brown's new kayak innitiative. He said yes again. We were supposed to do it with Daniel O'Byrne the new guy with Visit Jacksonville but he is no longer there. I'm stoked to do this with Joost. I believe in my heart that it will happen and it will be a blast. I had the opportunity to meet him and his family by chance at a polar plunge at the beach one year. I've got a gut feeling that we will be laughing our butts off during the whole paddle. I was thinking of a stop at Roberts Eatery after our Downtown experience. (He'll be at Wells Fargo at 8th and Main tomorrow.) but somehow I'm thinking Firehouse Subs.
My understanding is The First Coast forum is supposed to have a rebroadcast Thur. night. The audio was off on the first attempt.
March 17 is the St. Johns River Celebration and Hogans Creek behind the Jacksonville Historical society is identified as an URBAN cleanup location.
And Lake you nail it again when you say "The best thing the city could do is modify policy and get out of the way."
Quote from: fsujax on February 23, 2012, 01:21:47 PM
I have noticed all the new stores that have opened in the Landing. Your wing of the Landing is actually almost full. If only it were more visible from the street.
Maybe the new Landing stores should advertise on the new downtown bus shelters. Exposure to those who are already in the core but don't yet know of the new shopping opportunities.
they should. I didn't think advertising was allowed on the downtown shelters?
Its on again right now
Quote from: fsujax on February 29, 2012, 01:22:45 PM
they should. I didn't think advertising was allowed on the downtown shelters?
Looks to me like one could advertise on the downtown shelters, if one were so inclined. There's the little poster on them, but they have "ride JTA" ads in them.
On a similar note, I've seen a lot of bus shelters pop up on the Northside--silver and red, also with ad space. I thought there was a problem with funding, or was that just smoke up the ol' hind parts?