(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/26/62908030_0ff46a2579_z.jpg)
Hey JTA? Why don't we finish the damn thing?
Raise the bus fare and see a 19% drop in ridership, that was my prediction... Cut the Skyway fare and double the ridership, that was both Lake and My prediction. Well guess what Wilbur?
QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. -
It's been a week since the Jacksonville Transportation Authority stopped charging riders to use the Skyway. Since then, ridership has nearly doubled on the downtown system.
Alan Boree is one of those new riders and said the free fare is enticing.
"I enjoyed it," he said. "Maybe people will ride it more often."
Boree said he will probably ride it again sometime in the next three months. That's how long JTA plans to run the test of not charging to ride the Skyway.
JTA said the first week is very promising. Ridership is up 100 percent.
Before it was free, 1,700 people rode the Skyway a day, on average. Last Monday was the first free day and JTA saw a big increase, with 3,813 people riding the Skyway. There were slightly less on Tuesday, with 3,751 riding.
COMPLETE ARTICLE: NEWS 4: http://www.news4jax.com/news/Skyway-ridership-doubles-with-free-fare/-/475880/8602286/-/bcdury/-/index.html
FOR MY NEXT PREDICTION: "IF JTA BUILDS THE GREYHOUND TERMINAL THEY ARE NOW PLANNING, THEY WILL DESTROY JACKSONVILLE'S CHANCE FOR A TRUE MULTIMODAL TERMINAL FOR DECADES..." STOP THIS PROJECT!
OCKLAWAHA
Hopefully this experiment well keep it free in the long run, and show them the benefit of expanding it. Do you know how lovely it would be to park and ride the skyway to the stadium on game day?? Heck, if they had sense, Mr. Khan my be willing to fork over some money to help expand it to the stadium.
As far as the JRTC, I dont think all is lost. The city not granting them all the parcels of land they wanted kind of puts a hault on the project anyways. They cant do anything without the land. Hopefully the next move by the city will be them demanding a redesign that include the Prime Osborn.
Glad to see ridership increase . My question... How does this help the situation? If the system is now making no money from it's users?
Can this mean future expansion of the Skyway?
Quote from: Timkin on February 07, 2012, 12:46:41 AM
Glad to see ridership increase . My question... How does this help the situation? If the system is now making no money from it's users?
Can this mean future expansion of the Skyway?
Well there are people movers in other cities that are free as well Timkin. These types of system tend to struggle making a money. (which is not really the goal of public transportation) I believe Miami's people mover is free. Somebody correct me if Im wrong.
^Yes, Miami's Metromover is free. It's ridership also doubled when they removed the 25 cent fare in late 2002.
QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. -
Before it was free, 1,700 people rode the Skyway a day, on average. Last Monday was the first free day and JTA saw a big increase, with 3,813 people riding the Skyway.
The obvious question though before getting too excited:
Does anyone know if the 1,700 figure used as a baseline included people
through the turnstile only, or also estimated in all those who easily skipped the fare?
If the number factored in the deadbeats, we're talking about a pretty damn significant increase.
If the number only included paid riders, we're talking a pretty dishonest assessment by JTA.
the skyway ridership is not counted by the turnstiles, it is captured as riders enter and exit the cars.
I think they can make at least the amount they were charging for ridership back in selling advertising rights to the stations and cars and subleasing space on their huge platforms. Having increased ridership will entice advertisers and also, who wouldn't want to see a hotdog cart or something like that on the platforms. A bunch of wasted space.
Quote from: fsujax on February 07, 2012, 08:12:12 AM
the skyway ridership is not counted by the turnstiles, it is captured as rider enter and exit the cars.
In that case, this is a pretty significant increase.
As Dan mentioned above, nearly 4,000 free riders (if that number holds up over time) with advertising and subleased vendors would likely make more money for JTA than 1,700 riders for a minimal fare.
I freely admit to being wrong on this one.
Really didn't think the numbers would increase to this extent.
^ I absolutely agree. It also crushes the argument that nobody will ever ride the skyway, so we must tear it down. Can't deny the facts.
the really cool fact is the more riders on the Skyway, the less the cost per rider is and the more money JTA gets from FTA.
Quote from: KenFSU on February 07, 2012, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: fsujax on February 07, 2012, 08:12:12 AM
the skyway ridership is not counted by the turnstiles, it is captured as rider enter and exit the cars.
In that case, this is a pretty significant increase.
As Dan mentioned above, nearly 4,000 free riders (if that number holds up over time) with advertising and subleased vendors would likely make more money for JTA than 1,700 riders for a minimal fare.
I freely admit to being wrong on this one.
Really didn't think the numbers would increase to this extent.
If you really want to boost ridership, keep it free and start eliminating the majority of bus routes paralleling it through downtown. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it wouldn't surprise me that if it were done the 4k now would probably double.
The key to a system like the Skyway is connecting it with the rest of the transit system....if it is left free, but encourages more riders on the rest of JTA, it may actually bring in more money....which is precisely what happened in Miami
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2012, 08:44:54 AM
If you really want to boost ridership, keep it free and start eliminating the majority of bus routes paralleling it through downtown. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it wouldn't surprise me that if it were done the 4k now would probably double.
I was wondering when this suggestion was going to be brought in.
Quote from: fsujax on February 07, 2012, 08:42:07 AM
the really cool fact is the more riders on the Skyway, the less the cost per rider is and the more money JTA gets from FTA.
Great point.
In addition to all this, there would be hundreds if not thousands more weekly rides if the Courthouse transferred its juror parking to the King Street garage, connected by skyway, rather than paying (or having JTA pay) to shuttle them in from EverBank Field. Advertising would make even more sense with that.
In all the city as a whole could save money and resources by using something that's already up and running.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 07, 2012, 08:44:54 AM
Quote from: KenFSU on February 07, 2012, 08:34:44 AM
Quote from: fsujax on February 07, 2012, 08:12:12 AM
the skyway ridership is not counted by the turnstiles, it is captured as rider enter and exit the cars.
In that case, this is a pretty significant increase.
As Dan mentioned above, nearly 4,000 free riders (if that number holds up over time) with advertising and subleased vendors would likely make more money for JTA than 1,700 riders for a minimal fare.
I freely admit to being wrong on this one.
Really didn't think the numbers would increase to this extent.
If you really want to boost ridership, keep it free and start eliminating the majority of bus routes paralleling it through downtown. I don't have the numbers in front of me right now, but it wouldn't surprise me that if it were done the 4k now would probably double.
I don't think JTA is capable of effectively adjusting their bus routes to increase ridership. After all, mass transit clearly isn't their specialty.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 07, 2012, 08:52:30 AM
The key to a system like the Skyway is connecting it with the rest of the transit system....if it is left free, but encourages more riders on the rest of JTA, it may actually bring in more money....which is precisely what happened in Miami
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Yeah, Lake, I definitely agree that the bus system should be bringing people to the skyway, kind of like mini-hubs. Get rid of buses crossing from South to North Bank, they just drop people off at the skyway. They can make other connections by way of the skyway to another bus or, hopefully in the future, a streetcar. Or walk to their destination.
Jurors definitely need to park at the Kings or Terminal stations and ride the skyway to get to the courthouse. The city should not have to shuttle people over from the stadium. That's just ridiculous. If people really don't want to take public transit or walk a few blocks then they should pay for their own parking at one of the garages near the courthouse. They have free options. The city doesn't need to give back rubs to lazy citizens. I live in Brooklyn, NY and had to do jury duty last year. If you drove there then you had to find a free place to park(good luck!) or pay for parking. Or take public transit, which is not free.
I moved away from Jacksonville six years ago, and haven't been on the skyway in six to seven years so I'm not sure how much they've changed it, if at all, but the skyway stations definitely need kiosks and vendors. The city/JTA, whoever, should rent out space to businesses on the platforms. Even something just as simple as a guy in a wooden box selling magazines, candy, and bottled drinks. Hot dog vendors, coffee carts, ice cream in the summer... Rent out plots at the stations for these dudes. Now that there is an increase in riders they really need to sell ad space in all of the skyway cars, put ads in all of the elevators, on the walls and pillars on the platform... Having vendors on the platforms during the day will make it seem like less of a ghost town and make people feel invited and more comfortable, which can create more regular riders. Instead of driving from your house in Mandarin to your job in North Bank, trying to find parking, then rushing to your office with no time to grab a coffee and a snack you could just park at the giant Kings garage, grab a coffee and a bagel, and eat and drink while you cruise to your stop by your office. Sounds nice, yeah?
And I really hope that they don't end up using three whole blocks for the Greyhound, city bus, and skyway. There are so many smarter choices to create a main transit station.
Ok so I am ashamed to admit it, but today was my first ride on the skyway express. I parked at the King St. Station and had some business at the new Everbank Building. First I stopped at the King St. garage and attempted to get my ticket from the machine. Nothing came out. The man working at the booth came over. I asked him if this is a public garage. He said he didn't know, but most people have their own cards (probably parking pass). He told me to park under the bridge. There were no signs telling anyone how to pay for your spot. I found a metal box that had numbers on it. The number of my spot had gum stuck in the hole. This is a joke right? Well anyways.. I didn't pay to park, nor do I know if I was supposed to pay to park. I took the train across the river. The cars looked like s#it. Nothing add wrapping wouldn't fix. Oh and it could help pay the bills too. Both cars were totally full. Given the amount of people that were asking how this skyway worked led me to believe they were first timers or virgins as well. I really enjoyed the train. I found the stations to be clean and met a few people on my ride (I guess some would consider this a burden, but I truly enjoyed the HUMAN experience). I also talked to a guy who stated that he has been riding the train since it was free and he found out how much easier it was then to walk where he as going. The trains were full again on the way back. Actually it seemed like every train that stopped was pretty full. There was no one class of people. Some looked like business men. Some looked like Blue Collar etc. Everyone was trying the train out. Overall my experience as great. Any shortcomings on the train had to do with a mismanaged system- which could deter people from using the trains. After seeing how many people were in each car, I would assume JTA would need bigger cars if the skyway was to go into existing populated neighborhoods. I think it is time our politicians started to listen to the people and not to what their political party tell them what to believe. Use your Goddamn good sense for once.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 07, 2012, 02:04:11 PM
Ok so I am ashamed to admit it, but today was my first ride on the skyway express. I parked at the King St. Station and had some business at the new Everbank Building. First I stopped at the King St. garage and attempted to get my ticket from the machine. Nothing came out. The man working at the booth came over. I asked him if this is a public garage. He said he didn't know, but most people have their own cards (probably parking pass). He told me to park under the bridge. There were no signs telling anyone how to pay for your spot. I found a metal box that had numbers on it. The number of my spot had gum stuck in the hole. This is a joke right? Well anyways.. I didn't pay to park, nor do I know if I was supposed to pay to park. I took the train across the river. The cars looked like s#it. Nothing add wrapping wouldn't fix. Oh and it could help pay the bills too. Both cars were totally full. Given the amount of people that were asking how this skyway worked led me to believe they were first timers or virgins as well. I really enjoyed the train. I found the stations to be clean and met a few people on my ride (I guess some would consider this a burden, but I truly enjoyed the HUMAN experience). I also talked to a guy who stated that he has been riding the train since it was free and he found out how much easier it was then to walk where he as going. The trains were full again on the way back. Actually it seemed like every train that stopped was pretty full. There was no one class of people. Some looked like business men. Some looked like Blue Collar etc. Everyone was trying the train out. Overall my experience as great. Any shortcomings on the train had to do with a mismanaged system- which could deter people from using the trains. After seeing how many people were in each car, I would assume JTA would need bigger cars if the skyway was to go into existing populated neighborhoods. I think it is time our politicians started to listen to the people and not to what their political party tell them what to believe. Use your Goddamn good sense for once.
^^^ Especially agree with the last sentence . +1
If I used the skyway when charged/ put my money in and could not use the train.. I would not come back. I don't think anyone is up for being ripped off. Make the trains more user friendly. Although I did really like the signs that told the riders what stops were next for the trains, although that seems pretty common on most commuter trains or light rail at the time. I mean you would think all the (make everything private sector politicians) would be all over wrapping the trains.
Miami metromover is more extensive though and also connects with there heavy rail line and its connects to more destinations than the skyway. Also, if the skyway stays free how will JTA get money to extend it other parts of DT?
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 07, 2012, 07:49:47 PM
Also, if the skyway stays free how will JTA get money to extend it other parts of DT?
capital and operating are separate pots of money.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 06, 2012, 09:49:30 PM
(http://farm1.staticflickr.com/26/62908030_0ff46a2579_z.jpg)
Hey JTA? Why don't we finish the damn thing?
Raise the bus fare and see a 19% drop in ridership, that was my prediction... Cut the Skyway fare and double the ridership, that was both Lake and My prediction. Well guess what Wilbur?
QuoteJACKSONVILLE, Fla. -
It's been a week since the Jacksonville Transportation Authority stopped charging riders to use the Skyway. Since then, ridership has nearly doubled on the downtown system.
Alan Boree is one of those new riders and said the free fare is enticing.
"I enjoyed it," he said. "Maybe people will ride it more often."
Boree said he will probably ride it again sometime in the next three months. That's how long JTA plans to run the test of not charging to ride the Skyway.
JTA said the first week is very promising. Ridership is up 100 percent.
Before it was free, 1,700 people rode the Skyway a day, on average. Last Monday was the first free day and JTA saw a big increase, with 3,813 people riding the Skyway. There were slightly less on Tuesday, with 3,751 riding.
COMPLETE ARTICLE: NEWS 4: http://www.news4jax.com/news/Skyway-ridership-doubles-with-free-fare/-/475880/8602286/-/bcdury/-/index.html
FOR MY NEXT PREDICTION: "IF JTA BUILDS THE GREYHOUND TERMINAL THEY ARE NOW PLANNING, THEY WILL DESTROY JACKSONVILLE'S CHANCE FOR A TRUE MULTIMODAL TERMINAL FOR DECADES..." STOP THIS PROJECT!
OCKLAWAHA
I wish they would terminate this idea and expand on the skyway to Brooklyn/5points . You know where im going with that , Ock ;)
For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.
^^agreed.
San Marco at FEC RY and Atlantic is a no brainer. Commuters coming up from the south bank could transfer to the Skyway to access hospitals, offices and residential towers. The route also offers an opportunity for across the platform transfer by bringing the Skyway down to ground level at the Atlantic Station.
The expansion to the stadium would probably do quite well in terms of ridership annually provided the south bank parking garage becomes accessible with the overland bridge rebuild. Using Bay then turning northward on Randolph with a station in the middle of the sports district, then over the FREEway to around Randolph and Jessie would guarantee daily usage.
The original plan to go north to Shand's, makes more sense today because the new VA clinic would be on the route, this facility will have most of the diagnostic facilities that are currently located only in Gainesville and Lake City. Staying south and west of the Springfield Parks would keep the line from visual pollution in the historic district.
The 'sleeper' route is southward through Brooklyn. Until some serious dirt starts moving there, the only hope would be Blue Cross/Fidelity. Certainly I'd love to see the old Annie Lytle school turned into a Skyway/bus station packed with boutiques, offices, and studios. Crossing into Riverside/Avondale/5-Points would damage a neighborhood that would be better served by streetcar.
My understanding is this free phase is temporary until the new STAR card system is installed...
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 08, 2012, 09:31:11 AM
San Marco at FEC RY and Atlantic is a no brainer. Commuters coming up from the south bank could transfer to the Skyway to access hospitals, offices and residential towers. The route also offers an opportunity for across the platform transfer by bringing the Skyway down to ground level at the Atlantic Station.
The expansion to the stadium would probably do quite well in terms of ridership annually provided the south bank parking garage becomes accessible with the overland bridge rebuild. Using Bay then turning northward on Randolph with a station in the middle of the sports district, then over the FREEway to around Randolph and Jessie would guarantee daily usage.
The original plan to go north to Shand's, makes more sense today because the new VA clinic would be on the route, this facility will have most of the diagnostic facilities that are currently located only in Gainesville and Lake City. Staying south and west of the Springfield Parks would keep the line from visual pollution in the historic district.
The 'sleeper' route is southward through Brooklyn. Until some serious dirt starts moving there, the only hope would be Blue Cross/Fidelity. Certainly I'd love to see the old Annie Lytle school turned into a Skyway/bus station packed with boutiques, offices, and studios. Crossing into Riverside/Avondale/5-Points would damage a neighborhood that would be better served by streetcar.
DING DING DING WE HAVE A WINNER, UNCLE OCK!
-Josh
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 08, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
My understanding is this free phase is temporary until the new STAR card system is installed...
I think that was the idea. The News4Jax article said the JTA was considering making it permanent however.
Quote from: JeffreyS on February 08, 2012, 10:03:50 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on February 08, 2012, 09:48:59 AM
My understanding is this free phase is temporary until the new STAR card system is installed...
I think that was the idea. The News4Jax article said the JTA was considering making it permanent however.
Jim Piggot also took credit for the Skyway being free (in an earlier report) when it had nothing to do with him or the Ch4 reports.
JTA has been considering making the Skyway free for a couple of years now. It didnt just come about with the STAR card. IF you people want to keep it free then you need to let your elected officials know!
All of the elected officials hate the Skyway. It is pretty much taboo.
some do hate it. Others are indifferent.
And that is the reason it will not be extended. It has no supporters, just those against and those that don't care.
Romney's 1 percent make up most of the riders.
Quote from: mtraininjax on February 08, 2012, 02:41:56 PM
Romney's 1 percent make up most of the riders.
umm... what ?
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 07, 2012, 08:15:26 PM
Quote from: Keith-N-Jax on February 07, 2012, 07:49:47 PM
Also, if the skyway stays free how will JTA get money to extend it other parts of DT?
capital and operating are separate pots of money.
THANKS!
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 01:36:52 PM
All of the elected officials hate the Skyway. It is pretty much taboo.
I cant agree that ALL elected officials hate it. The only thing JTA said that made sense about the skyway is this. Is hard to plan on extending it, when downtown does not even have a redevelopment plan in place. Once our new downtown vision unfolds, the new administration needs to tap JTA and they need to work together to have the Skyway intergrated into the downtown redevelopment plan. That's part of what make the Miami Mover successful, which is also free BTW. It is intergrated into alot of their projects downtown. In the meantime, an extention to riverside ave and to the sports district is a new brainier JTA has been sitting on for a very long time.
Since we've been talking about routes for the Skyway, I'd like to toss in a zinger that I think would become quite popular especially with the lunch crowd and downtown residents.
Extend the line due west of the current stop at Jacksonville Terminal (aka: The Prime Osborn) duck under the freeway with the rest of the railroad tracks, then up and over the railroad yard coming down to a station at the Farmers Market (on or over Beaver Street), then in a later phase on west down Beaver to Stockton, King, and McDuff Street stations. Such a route would be fairly short, straight, and would tap lots of residential, office and industrial job centers tying them in with the best produce marketplace, restaurants, and the downtown crowd.
Quote"Once I built a railroad, I made it run, made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad; now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime?"
SOURCE: Depression era song by Jay Gorney 1931
OCKLAWAHA
I like I like. So basically have it take the old street care route?
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 08, 2012, 11:47:17 PM
Since we've been talking about routes for the Skyway, I'd like to toss in a zinger that I think would become quite popular especially with the lunch crowd and downtown residents.
Extend the line due west of the current stop at Jacksonville Terminal (aka: The Prime Osborn) duck under the freeway with the rest of the railroad tracks, then up and over the railroad yard coming down to a station at the Farmers Market (on or over Beaver Street), then in a later phase on west down Beaver to Stockton, King, and McDuff Street stations. Such a route would be fairly short, straight, and would tap lots of residential, office and industrial job centers tying them in with the best produce marketplace, restaurants, and the downtown crowd.
Quote"Once I built a railroad, I made it run, made it race against time.
Once I built a railroad; now it's done. Brother, can you spare a dime?"
SOURCE: Depression era song by Jay Gorney 1931
OCKLAWAHA
They had a similar trolley route that did this (Beaver Street Route). Not sure if they still have it or what the ridership is.
They had a similar trolley route that did this (Beaver Street Route). Not sure if they still have it or what the ridership is.
[/quote]
http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/06.21.11/BeaverStTrolley.pdf
Quote from: exnewsman on February 09, 2012, 09:08:42 AM
They had a similar trolley route that did this (Beaver Street Route). Not sure if they still have it or what the ridership is.
http://www.jtafla.com/Schedules/06.21.11/BeaverStTrolley.pdf
[/quote]
Yeah, I saw that schedule on the website also. But JTA doesn't have the best track record with keeping the website up to date which is why I put the disclaimer on there. In fact (just to highlight the ineptitude) one of the links I clicked on for the Beaver Street Trolley route brought up a pamphlet for the Bay Street Trolley route.
the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it
I rode the skyway on lunch yesterday. It was full both ways on my stop and there was actually a line of people waiting to get on the train at Central Station. On a side note, We really need to have JTA give their workers customer service lessons. There was an older JTA worker riding the skyway car and on his walkie, he asked control to shut the doors on another train stalled on the other side of the station that appeard to not be moving. The guy beside me was really amazed and was asking him questions like: "Can the they really clsoe the doors remotely?" All he got was an abrupt yes. The JTA worker didn't even turn around to address him. Of course the guy stopped asking questions and just looked out the window the rest of the ride. What a neat opportunity for JTA to explain to an enthusiastic newbie how it all worked and maybe get him excited about the skyway, but no.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it
Let me guess..... 'Due to low ridership numbers'?
I did a little research and if you're trying to get from Rosa Park to the Farmer's market - you should have ZERO issues.
3 Busses go there, B7 (40 min.), B9 (50min) & BST (60 min)
If you want to go in the morning, your options are:
8:28 (B7), 8:39 (B9), 8:43 (BST), 9:09 (B7), 9:33 (BST), 9:39 (B9), 9:49 (B7), 10:23, (BST), 10:28 (B7), 10:39 (B9)
Seems like you've got plenty of options.
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it
Yeah and that totally defeats the purpose of what something like a trolly is supposed to accomplish- especially if JTA is using this to test if people would be interested in a streetcar. If I had to wait an hour for anything I would not stick around. Most people don't have that kind of time. The time wait should be aprox 10 give or take. Kind of like making the skyway miserable to use and then ask why no one uses it.
JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar. They have no intentions of doing a streetcar and using rubber wheeled trolleys wouldn't provide an accurate test anyway (ridership or economic development, which would be more important). They'd probably be better off taking it out and coordinating it with a local bus route using Beaver Street.
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 08:57:34 AM
For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.
San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shands & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2012, 10:17:49 AM
JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar. They have no intentions of doing a streetcar
Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 09, 2012, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 08:57:34 AM
For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.
San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shands & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.
I believe the next expansion will be determined by development potential along the route. It will likely take a new project that promises to bring more riders and potentially helps fund the expansion. I am biased, but feel that the route to Atlantic Blvd in San Marco offers the most potential.
That's why Brooklyn is the most likely first expansion. I guess the biggest reason is all you would need is access sin
to the current platform.
Quote from: exnewsman on February 09, 2012, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2012, 10:17:49 AM
JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar. They have no intentions of doing a streetcar
Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.
Because JTA's actions are more than proof that the streetcar isn't a high priority with them. Although they did a
prefeasibility study a few years ago, there's been little to no mention of it from JTA since. The majority of news coming out of JTA has revolved around becoming a regional transportation authority, finding money to do more road projects, BRT, the JRTC, and eventually doing another commuter rail study.
Also, the last time the streetcar was mentioned in the paper, Blaylock pretty much stated it wasn't a priority.
QuoteUnder a mobility plan approved by City Council this year, the city could assess a user fee on new development that would help pay for this. An implementing ordinance must still pass council. It was introduced last week and is expected to be voted on in September, Harding said.
The user fee would be based on how many more cars would be on the roads because of the new development.
The mobility plan recommends a trolley that would run from downtown to Five Points, then to King Street in Riverside. A trolley would also run from downtown to the area around Shands Jacksonville.
It is estimated that the user fee, if allocated for this purpose, would pay for all of the streetcars from downtown to King Street, and half of the cost of building it to Shands.
It's not clear what streets would be used.
City Planning Director Bill Killingsworth said the city would build the streetcar, then turn it over to Jacksonville Transportation Authority to run.
JTA Executive Director Michael Blaylock said a streetcar trolley could replace the buses that look like trolleys that now take people from the downtown into Riverside and Avondale.
Davis and Mann argue that a fixed-route streetcar system with a track is better than the existing buses. A streetcar will attract economic development, encourage people to live and work downtown, and get cars off the road, they say.
But Blaylock, who was also on the transition committee, cautions that Brown will have limited dollars.
"Improving the port will be the No. 1 priority," Blaylock said, "and there's not a lot of money for infrastructure projects right now."
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-08-15/story/mayors-team-suggests-trolley-system-jacksonville#comment-455306
I put this quote in bold because I found it shocking that Mr. Blaylock would make such a statement when he knows these things come from separate financial pots and that they have little to nothing to do with one another. However, such a statement can clearly confuse those who may not be aware of the various financial pots in a manner were they fall in opposition to the streetcar. If we don't want to see a streetcar up and running before the end of this decade, I'm in belief it will have to be done without JTA playing a leading role.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on February 09, 2012, 09:42:56 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it
Let me guess..... 'Due to low ridership numbers'?
I did a little research and if you're trying to get from Rosa Park to the Farmer's market - you should have ZERO issues.
3 Busses go there, B7 (40 min.), B9 (50min) & BST (60 min)
If you want to go in the morning, your options are:
8:28 (B7), 8:39 (B9), 8:43 (BST), 9:09 (B7), 9:33 (BST), 9:39 (B9), 9:49 (B7), 10:23, (BST), 10:28 (B7), 10:39 (B9)
Seems like you've got plenty of options.
Sorry you got confused WestsideNONredneck, my background is transportation...in fact in every single mode, I'd never EVER suggest that the Farm Market would be a superior route, merely a jumping off spot for pushing off into NW JAX perhaps in the general direction of Edward Waters. The Skyway was NEVER DESIGNED TO TRAVEL LONG DISTANCES, it's just NOT rapid transit, though a larger scale monorail possibly using the same infrastructure could actually serve that need. Over short 2-4 mile distances, the Skyway's singular advantage is moving above the traffic in the densest areas, it is capable of 50 mph, and has notable G-force acceleration of a streetcar. The Skyway also has a horrendous price AS-BUILT, and though certain economic steps could probably cut those costs down to somewhere around that of dedicated BRT/Light Rail, it would probably remain our more costly choice. IF, (note that's a huge IF) we ever got mass transit management, managing our mass transit, we might actually consider building a multi-modal system that makes some sense and has connectivity. Right now, TODAY, we have the US HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES TRANSPORTATION SUB-COMMITTEE in our vest pocket, the Chairman LOVES the SKYWAY for better or worse. I'm simply tossing out what I'd be asking for as a phased expansion, trouble is of course JTA is asking for... NOTHING! And probably never will. Also I promote my concepts as multi-modal, because when one travels to world class cities, the one thing they'll almost always have in common is a mix of transit modes, each serving and doing what it does best in the best location for that particular mode.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 09, 2012, 09:46:32 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 09, 2012, 09:19:35 AM
the problem with the beaver St trolley is that it basically only runs once an hour...and from what I hear, JTA has been discussing eliminating it
Yeah and that totally defeats the purpose of what something like a trolly is supposed to accomplish- especially if JTA is using this to test if people would be interested in a streetcar. If I had to wait an hour for anything I would not stick around. Most people don't have that kind of time. The time wait should be aprox 10 give or take. Kind of like making the skyway miserable to use and then ask why no one uses it.
You CAN NOT use a bus (regardless of whatever you want to call it) to test the feasibility of a streetcar line. Trying to use a bus in a streetcar study is like trying to study a high speed rail line with bicycles. Whole different animal.' In the one place where a PCT-POTATO-CHIP-TRUCK-THINKS-ITS-A-TROLLEY has gone head to head with a real streetcar, (Tucson) the streetcar blew the bus ridership out of the water...er...desert.
Starting on April 17, 1993, Tucson unwittingly began a test of whether riders prefer genuine streetcars or rubber-tired faux trolleys. The electric choice seems a clear winner. During May, the first full month of operation, three times as many riders paid four times as much to ride half as far in the newly restored rail line than they would have paid to ride a modern “faux trolley†PCT bus.
A ride on the historic line costs one dollar while the SunTran shuttle bus fare is twenty-five cents. The streetcar line is only one mile in length while the bus route is about two miles and connects more activity centers including downtown Tucson and the convention center. Further discouraging riders, the streetcar only runs three days a week while the bus runs six days.
Although the streetcar duplicated the university end of the bus route, operating hours are such that Saturday daytime is the only period during the week that the two modes directly compete. Streetcar operating hours were Friday, 6 P.M. to midnight; Saturday, 10A.M. to midnight; and Sunday, noon to 6 P.M. The dressed-up buses operated Monday through Saturday, daytime only. Pretty damn convincing to anyone but FDOT, JTA, COJ...etc.
Quote from: Coolyfett on February 09, 2012, 05:33:20 PM
Quote from: cline on February 08, 2012, 08:57:34 AM
For the first phase of an expansion, the better idea would be to San Marco.
San Marco? Riverside & Springfield near Shand's & 8th would bring in way more riders. San Marco would need to be last behind, Sports Complex, Riverside & Springfield.
Actually San Marco, would likely be the heaviest utilized route if we discounted the large number of sports and event fans that would occasionally flood the stadium extension and bump up it's ridership. Day to day usage from San Marco at Atlantic and the FEC RY, would explode when commuter rail comes on line. Well over 10,000 people work in or around the south bank Riverwalk, and currently the only real access they have is through the maze JTA has created with FREEways. Commuter rail would be a game changer IF the Skyway platform was at the surface (easily done and DONE on other monorails such as Disney Tokyo) it would permit a cross-platform transfer from trains to and from the Southside all the way to St. Augustine. San Marco FIRST, would have the singular effect of finally giving the Skyway a residential anchor, boutique shopping and eateries, public recreation facilities, and contain it all within a dense urban area.
Quote from: exnewsman on February 09, 2012, 05:49:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on February 09, 2012, 10:17:49 AM
JTA isn't using those trolleys to test a streetcar. They have no intentions of doing a streetcar
Curious why you would say that considering the feasibility study that was done... Also - isn't JTA's regional planner pushing hard for this? According to Blaylock everything is on the table - streetcar, commuter rail, high speed rail, BRT, Skyway.
JTA completely screwed the pooch with the empty multi-million dollar empty garage on the Southbank. The Skyway was the worst of all choices when they convinced the city that by 2012 we'd be riding speeding monorails to Jacksonville Beach. Amazingly the agency convinced the city and FDOT that Bus Rapid Transit was just like rail - only cheaper, using statements like "The people love buses, they hate rail." In their commuter rail plans, they advanced the idea of Amtrak and the Southside line using the tracks on the south side of the Prime Osborn, but the west and north side line near Bay Street next to the PO parking lot! Just a 4 block walk to change trains! All during the 1980's they launched into a disinformation campaign against all things rail to boost their status as a highway and Skyway builder. This is the same authority that plans to build "a transportation center" scattered over 5 buildings and more real estate then the Vatican, a sovereign state. Finally in tiny employment centers like the Cecil Commerce Center, and over at NAS Jax, they eliminated all through service and are now forcing their passenger to transfer to any one of 6 different routes. So even if the JTA director fell on his hands and knees and begged to build and operate our streetcars, my gut feeling is keep it out of their hands, they'll only screw it up. They have certainly proved over a long term that they are no friend of rail, it will take more then a little convincing for me to believe otherwise. In short, beware, JTA speaks with forked tongue Kemosabe.
I was going over the mobility plan page on here. What an amazing and genius piece of planning. I can see how the moratorium on the fee will just eliminate the foundation of the mobility plan. Without the fee it seems like the plan does not exist. What a shame, but if I might ask. Are most of our leaders for the mobility plan? I mean I figure they voted on it right? If one was to remove the fee they would remove the mobility plan. What is the chance the moratorium will last? Were is JTA on commuter rail? What happened after the feasibility study? Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to know.
^A lot of our leaders are for the mobility plan. However, the Council unanimously approved a 1-year moratorium on implementing the fee that would make it possible, in an effort to remove potential restrictions growth (and therefore jobs) in this down economy. Some of the smarter ones have expressed that they do not want to extend the moratorium. Some of the dumber ones were never for the plan at all. Take all this as you will.
There is a slim chance the mobility fee will ever be put into practice. Too much outside "influence".
QuoteAre most of our leaders for the mobility plan?
In general? Yes, I believe so. The mobility fee basically replaced the concurrency program we already had in place. However, it was felt by the council that eliminating the fee for a year might stimulate more short term construction jobs to help our local economy.
QuoteWhat is the chance the moratorium will last?
It is supposed to sunset before the end of this year. Whether it is extended or allowed to sunset depends on the will of the community verses the development community on the decisions of the council.
QuoteWere is JTA on commuter rail?
I believe they are moving forward with an alternative analysis study to determine what segment of their commuter rail plan should be built first.
QuoteWhat happened after the feasibility study?
The streetcar study was a "PRE" feasibility study. It basically confirmed what most urbanist already knew.....it's worth diving into in greater detail. However, realistically speaking, economic development will be the best thing a streetcar provides for Jacksonville but that's not JTA's central purpose. Thus, it's not as high a priority as finding money to build more roads, get BRT off the ground, and becoming a regional transportation authority.
Yeah, if they were serious about it, then they wouldn't be axing it right off the bat. Don't let the "moratorium" wording BS fool you. They'll come up with an excuse every year.
Now, if they made it "moratorium-proof", then you'd know it was for real.
Quote from: cline on February 10, 2012, 08:50:04 AM
There is a slim chance the mobility fee will ever be put into practice. Too much outside "influence".
I believe at some point it will be back. We simply don't have the money now to maintain and expand our infrastructure and if the fee/concurrency disappears, it's only going to get worse. Thus, we'll get to the point very soon where we'll see a raise in taxes, the return of impact fees like the mobility fee, or both.
Quote from: peestandingup on February 10, 2012, 08:55:18 AM
Yeah, if they were serious about it, then they wouldn't be axing it right off the bat.
On the flip end, if they didn't want concurrency, they could have taken it out years ago without spending the millions on consultants and paying city staff to develop the plan/fee and modify the comprehensive plan's land use policies.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2012, 08:58:53 AM
Quote from: peestandingup on February 10, 2012, 08:55:18 AM
Yeah, if they were serious about it, then they wouldn't be axing it right off the bat.
On the flip end, if they didn't want concurrency, they could have taken it out years ago without spending the millions on consultants and paying city staff to develop the plan/fee and modify the comprehensive plan's land use policies.
True, but maybe some of their buddies needed a job. It certainly wouldn't be the first time money gets wasted on things like this.
Doing something & saying you're going to do something are two entirely different things. Judging by the past, I wouldn't hold my breathe is all. Oh, but we got that slick new monster of a courthouse pretty easily. :-\
All I can do is go by the past on it. The past indicates that we've had concurrency in place for years, just like most cities throughout the state. It's also clear that we can't afford to maintain and construct roadway infrastructure the same as we have in the past, which will be a negative on the transportation industry which is probably just as strong in lobbying as our development industry is. We can't squeeze blood out of a turnip when it comes to finding funding mechanisms. Money to stimulate future growth in these industries and our community will have to come from somewhere. I'm pretty confident that money will eventually come from either impact fees like the mobility fee or out of taxpayer's pockets because I don't see our leaders telling these industries to go screw themselves. The question I have is when this time will come and if there will be an attempt to modify projects or shift funds to something else?
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 10, 2012, 08:37:19 AM
I was going over the mobility plan page on here. What an amazing and genius piece of planning. I can see how the moratorium on the fee will just eliminate the foundation of the mobility plan. Without the fee it seems like the plan does not exist. What a shame, but if I might ask. Are most of our leaders for the mobility plan? I mean I figure they voted on it right? If one was to remove the fee they would remove the mobility plan. What is the chance the moratorium will last? Were is JTA on commuter rail? What happened after the feasibility study? Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to know.
The City Council voted for the mobility plan and then bowing to pressure from the building trades, promptly threw it under the bus. Jacksonville's extreme conservatism has given us a city with dull features - if we have any features at all. We can hope that creative minds will ultimately prevail, but I fear another, "wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." Will the moratorium last? probably.
JTA has done a commuter rail study, but thus far it looks more like a streetcar/light rail type system with stops close enough together to render a conventional train pretty useless. The first study is more or less a study to see if we should study it! The second is more detailed.
The Authority is making such a mess of the JACKSONVILLE TERMINAL (aka:Prime Osborn) 'JRTC' that it will be more or less dysfunctional as a commuter hub. Imagine you come into town on the train, the have to hike the equivalent of about 3-4 blocks to catch your connecting bus, Connect to Greyhound and it's between 7 and 8 blocks. They have even advanced the idea to put the platforms for north side and west side lines between the PO parking lot and Bay Street, then put Amtrak and the south side lines down by McCoy's Creek. Better wear your hiking shoes!
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2012, 09:25:07 AM
which will be a negative on the transportation industry which is probably just as strong in lobbying as our development industry is.
The "transportation" lobby probably is as strong as the development industry is. However, it is not the "multimodal transportion" lobby. It is the road-building lobby. In their eyes there can never be too many roads.
Until this community decides it's transit over roads, or even a 50/50 split, then we can just forget about streetcars. Instead of arguing about parking in Riverside, they ought to be demanding more transit i.e. streetcars. Wasted energy.
Quote from: cline on February 10, 2012, 09:42:12 AMThe "transportation" lobby probably is as strong as the development industry is. However, it is not the "multimodal transportion" lobby. It is the road-building lobby. In their eyes there can never be too many roads.
^True but the plan/fee defines projects by zone. That was specifically done to keep money intended for a neighborhood like Riverside being spent on something like 9B or widening Southside Blvd. and vise versa. That's why proponents should not focus on single improvements, such as the streetcar. Treat it like a package deal (ex. what Delaney did with the BJP). If the road-building lobby wants to go into a place like Riverside and lobby for widening Park Street to six lanes instead of alternative forms of mobility, I'd like to see how an neighborhood group like RAP reacts when Whiteway Corner, Pele's, Five Points, and all those historic structures are earmarked for demolition to make way for an arterial highway.
At the end of the day, if there's no fee, the road building entities get no roads in the burbs either, outside of the tolls FDOT will be sending your way in the future. Some green is better than no green.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 10, 2012, 09:25:46 AM
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on February 10, 2012, 08:37:19 AM
I was going over the mobility plan page on here. What an amazing and genius piece of planning. I can see how the moratorium on the fee will just eliminate the foundation of the mobility plan. Without the fee it seems like the plan does not exist. What a shame, but if I might ask. Are most of our leaders for the mobility plan? I mean I figure they voted on it right? If one was to remove the fee they would remove the mobility plan. What is the chance the moratorium will last? Were is JTA on commuter rail? What happened after the feasibility study? Sorry for all the questions, but I would really like to know.
The City Council voted for the mobility plan and then bowing to pressure from the building trades, promptly threw it under the bus. Jacksonville's extreme conservatism has given us a city with dull features - if we have any features at all. We can hope that creative minds will ultimately prevail, but I fear another, "wish in one hand and spit in the other and see which one fills up first." Will the moratorium last? probably.
I disagree. Jax's problem isn't "extreme conservatism", it's lack of consistent vision and followthrough. That's how we can pass a visionary plan like Better Jacksonville and then have the
very next dude muck large portions of it up like the stereotypical movie fat guy who falls into the wedding cake. Both St. Pete and Tampa also have what I'd regard as a fairly conservative approach to local government, but they've gotten their act together quite well by sticking to the plan (at least in their urban areas).
I think Lakelander has it right - clearly many of our city leaders, over the span of many years,
do believe in concurrency and this plan in particular, and additionally, we're reaching a point where these kinds of fees are going to be the only way to raise money for development (I think this would happen before raising taxes, due to the fact it would draw less flak from the people than taxes).
The real issue as I see it is our leadership's perennial tendency to bungle good ideas and waste a ton of potential. What I fear with this plan (or any similar plan) isn't that it'll never happen, it's that city leadership will stall it and/or tinker with it until much of its potential is just lost.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2012, 10:00:11 AM
Until this community decides it's transit over roads, or even a 50/50 split, then we can just forget about streetcars.
I think that is ridiculous....we should be able to move forward on real transit even if the community was 75/25 in favor of roads.
^Yes. There's no reason we can't move forward on real transit right now, even if its just focusing on connecting downtown with adjacent urban core neighborhoods (IMO, this is where we should start and where you'll have great buy in). You'll never achieve 100% community buy in on anything and one form of mobility shouldn't necessarily be placed above an other without first considering the context that the improvement would serve. That's one of the main reasons I don't like to see the streetcar improvement taken out of context when discussing the mobility plan. It's a mobility improvement for a mobility zone where transit makes more sense than roadway widening. It's no different than Cecil Field's mobility zone improvement being the widening of Normandy Boulevard or a pedestrian overpass over the Arlington Expressway being the top bike/ped priority in Arlington's mobility zone.
ok. i will go with 80/20, 90/10 it doesnt really matter. My point is people need to demand it. Even if it is just downtown and the surronding neighborhoods.
I understand your point. What is the most effective way for people to demand it? Attending public meetings on transit projects? Writing council representatives? JTA? Mayor's office?
Also, do you find the general public demanding roadway expansion projects? If so, what process are they using to make these demands?
Just be outspoken about it. Show up to a Council meeting, attend a JTA meeting. I use the Riverside parking issue as a good example. Instead of everyone focusing on how to locate more parking spots, they should focus their efforts on getting City Hall and JTA to provide alternatives. As far as your second question, not sure. I think it was stated somewhere else, the road building industry is pretty strong.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2012, 11:54:17 AM
I understand your point. What is the most effective way for people to demand it? Attending public meetings on transit projects? Writing council representatives? JTA? Mayor's office?
Also, do you find the general public demanding roadway expansion projects? If so, what process are they using to make these demands?
You're giving 'the people' way too much credit, Lake. The reason so few oppose the highway expansion is because it's been presented in a way that will benefit them and not cost any extra - however flawed the logic. When 'the people' start hearing about a 'train' or a 'trolley' or any other mass transit avenue, the perception is that they'll never use it and the $20M to put it in place should be spent in other areas (not realizing the Overpass they don't have a problem with is $200M).
You are wasting your time trying to convince 'the people' that it's something that will benefit most. What is needed is someone in charge with the cajones to install a project - a real one, not a half-assed, poorly executed intended to fail project, and let 'the people' see for themselves. The title of the this article is "SKYWAY RIDERSHIP DOUBLES", there's a reason.
You have to have someone with the power and desire to plow up a cornfield.
^Many in the urban community have been doing this for years. The mobility plan's multimodal projects would have never been included if were not for the community's visioning effots and getting those projects added to the TPO's long range master plan. However, I fail to see the need to attempt to bring the guy living in Argyle on board before doing something when no one is asking them to spend their money on many of the needed multimodal mobility improvements in neighborhoods where they make most sense. The neighborhood support is there, leadership needs to run with it.
Quote from: fsujax on February 10, 2012, 12:01:00 PM
Just be outspoken about it. Show up to a Council meeting, attend a JTA meeting.
Falls on deaf ears.
Instead we have the brain trust at JTA telling us about how we should be counting our blessings because they brought us JTB and Dames Point. Until there is a leadership change, we will continue to get the same old crap.
Quote from: thelakelander on February 10, 2012, 12:41:26 PM
The mobility plan's multimodal projects would have never been included if were not for the community's visioning effots and getting those projects added to the TPO's long range master plan.
The sad part is lake, after all the good that was done, it was undermined by a small group of individuals with a vested financial interest. This has pretty much been tradition in Jax. It gets frustrating.
^What's more frustrating to me is when people support a good idea but then don't make their voice heard. It's shocking to me how even civic-minded folks I talk too don't even know who their councilman is, let alone bother to ever contact them about their support or otherwise get involved (or even vote). At the same time, every small-minded cynic is filling every inbox with complaints about how much money we're wasting downtown while there are potholes in the Westside, or how a concert is making too much noise, or how streetcars will be a huge waste in the proportion of the courthouse.
If you don't know who your councilperson is then I wouldn't really consider you civic minded-maybe well intentioned. But to your point, the vocal minority often gets their way
sadly, i guess you are right Cline. Nothing will change until "big" changes are made.
Occupy JTA
I for one have posted here, JaxBusiness journal and the TU site trying to maintain a once a week call out for each on how the council has knowingly betrayed their constituents on the moratorium issue. A tax increase and QOL decrease on all of us just so their insider, GOB developer buddies might be able to afford a little bit more expensive BMW lease.
The worst part is trying to sell to us that the theoretical "Wendy's" they might build is a great boon for Jacksonville. As if Wendy's are only built where there is a Mobility Fee Moratorium not where there is I don't know a good market for burgers.
I have also emailed each council member about this and was told stop the sabre rattling.
This might sound silly, but why don't the cars have sponsors on the side of them with somebody paying JTA money for their name or product to be on there? Would it generate anything worthwhile? We all see FARAH & FARAH on the side of the City Bus or some sort of local lawyer. Why not the skyway cars?
Quote from: deathstar on February 10, 2012, 05:03:25 PM
This might sound silly, but why don't the cars have sponsors on the side of them with somebody paying JTA money for their name or product to be on there? Would it generate anything worthwhile? We all see FARAH & FARAH on the side of the City Bus or some sort of local lawyer. Why not the skyway cars?
Great Idea. Therefore JTA probably will not go along with it ;)
YES! Advertising in the stations, on the cars and inside the cars.
Here are a couple of concept maps that I feel would be game changers for the Skyway.
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/JAXSkyway.png)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa111/Ocklawaha/CRITICAL%20Maps/SanMarcoSkyway.png)
there's no way the Skyway comes south of I-95 into Riverside
Just got back from South Florida and saw your comment TUFSU1, I agree with that sentiment and I'd MUCH RATHER turn south on Roselle to Annie Lytle, as a TOD/MINI-TRANSIT HUB. The original plan was to turn onto Roselle and end the route a couple of blocks west of I-10, so it actually stays with the plan. When I did this map (I believe I was in El Retiro, Colombia at the time) I also knew of the static this would get from the RAP/preservation groups. If that route was ever actually considered, you'll note I don't have it going any farther south then the end of the commercial strip. It SHOULD stay out of Riverside/Avondale residential completely.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 12, 2012, 08:57:20 PM
Just got back from South Florida and saw your comment TUFSU1, I agree with that sentiment and I'd MUCH RATHER turn south on Roselle to Annie Lytle, as a TOD/MINI-TRANSIT HUB. The original plan was to turn onto Roselle and end the route a couple of blocks west of I-10, so it actually stays with the plan. When I did this map (I believe I was in El Retiro, Colombia at the time) I also knew of the static this would get from the RAP/preservation groups. If that route was ever actually considered, you'll note I don't have it going any farther south then the end of the commercial strip. It SHOULD stay out of Riverside/Avondale residential completely.
The Annie Lytle TOD/ Mini Transit Hub remains one of the better choices of a re purpose to the Old School. It is a shame that JTA and the City cannot embrace this idea. Use the building for a TOD/ and some commercial . Its a win-win for Annie and the Skyway.
I don't know how much of the structure was destroyed in the fire, but I think it would be cool to look at SCAD's new reuse of the old train station in a museum. Part of the building is the museum and the destroyed part became a exposed wall seating area and garden- also cool for a farmers market or something. I guess the end is never the end with a little creativity. Here is a pretty cool video on the project.
http://www.scadmoa.org/
JC... if you were referring to Annie Lytle , what was destroyed by the fire was the final portion of the failing Auditorium roof. The wooden rafters set on fire.. I do not know how. Because it was up in the air and not actually on the ground, it was rather quickly put out. Because the remainder of the building is Brick Masonry and reinforced concrete, there really is very very little left to burn now and in any event, fire or no fire, the Auditorium roof would have had to be completely replaced. the time to repair it would have been in the 1980s when it was still pretty much intact and leaking but not failing. What remains now is Brick Concrete and Steel and all of it is just as straight as it ever was. If not for the methods of construction and the thought put into its construction, it would long ago have completely failed . It remains very much savable.
If they'd let us take bikes on the skyway, I'd probably use it a bit more often. Even more so if it were open on the weekends again.
Actually I oughta just try taking a bike... do you think the people watching the cameras would yell at me -- freeze the train until I removed my unauthorized 2 wheeled conveyance?
I think you should try to fit the Mini in a skyway car :)
Quote from: blfair on February 13, 2012, 09:47:56 PM
If they'd let us take bikes on the skyway, I'd probably use it a bit more often. Even more so if it were open on the weekends again.
Actually I oughta just try taking a bike... do you think the people watching the cameras would yell at me -- freeze the train until I removed my unauthorized 2 wheeled conveyance?
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3063/3905721880_f2021c17e9.jpg)
The way to break this ban is to have the Bike Jacksonville clubs send a letter to both the executive director of JTA and to our city council's downtown representatives. Bikes ride INSIDE light rail and streetcars all over the world and on the front of buses in the rest of the world. Frankly I wouldn't mind a Skyway car full of bikes, hell bikes don't fart! ...and their quiet. If this fails then arrange for some OCCUPY SKYWAY days where a couple hundred bike riders climb on board with their rides, oh, and make sure every media outlet is notified in advance, just ask for the assignment editor.
Good luck! While I don't have a 'real' bike to ride to the protest, my 4 year old grandson has a trike and I might show up with that.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 13, 2012, 10:17:08 PM
I think you should try to fit the Mini in a skyway car :)
That's probably not even against the rules... on that point, if it's bikes that are excluded, maybe a unicycle or a tricycle would be allowed?
Also I need a new profile pic I guess, I don't have the MINI anymore... but he's so darn cute.
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 13, 2012, 11:18:32 PM
The way to break this ban is to have the Bike Jacksonville clubs send a letter to both the executive director of JTA and to our city council's downtown representatives. Bikes ride INSIDE light rail and streetcars all over the world and on the front of buses in the rest of the world. Frankly I wouldn't mind a Skyway car full of bikes, hell bikes don't fart! ...and their quiet. If this fails then arrange for some OCCUPY SKYWAY days where a couple hundred bike riders climb on board with their rides, oh, and make sure every media outlet is notified in advance, just ask for the assignment editor.
Good luck! While I don't have a 'real' bike to ride to the protest, my 4 year old grandson has a trike and I might show up with that.
OCKLAWAHA
Yep -- I've seen transit all over the world with bikes onboard... I travel to Minneapolis a few times a year as of late, and always take the Hiawatha line from the airport. They allow bikes onboard, and people use it year round... you'll see bike and rider thawing out as the train moves along...
Quote from: blfair on February 14, 2012, 09:29:13 PM
Also I need a new profile pic I guess, I don't have the MINI anymore... but he's so darn cute.
I'm pretty sure you have a new cool car you could show...maybe another hot little euro hatch :)
Quote from: tufsu1 on February 14, 2012, 09:37:55 PM
I'm pretty sure you have a new cool car you could show...maybe another hot little euro hatch :)
That's the wife's car, I don't think she'd appreciate me taking credit for her euro coolness. I'll just substitute another photo of me preparing to do something awesome as usual.
Fueling a Cessna? ;D
Quote from: Ocklawaha on February 11, 2012, 12:25:27 AM
YES! Advertising in the stations, on the cars and inside the cars.
Ahem..
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BlC0PLUCYAAIskV.png)
I'm all for public transit that can convey bikes, but the Skyway cars are just too dinky and poorly-laid out to really accommodate bikes well. Anything more than 1 bike in a car and things would start to get real hairy in there. Of course, if you go outside of One Spark, it will be empty and you'll have it to yourself, so not really an issue.
I don't know why this old thread was dug up, but bikes are now allowed on the Skyway during non-peak hours.
I only bumped it so Ock could see his post & shed a little light possibly on what we talked about just two years ago that's being done now.