Amtrak: Flagler Line Will Happen
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-2646-dsc_0022.JPG)
With $118 million committed in FDOT's work program for their 2013 budget year, plans for the return of passenger rail between Jacksonville and Miami are alive and well.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jan-amtrak-flagler-line-will-happen
I'm warming to rail. Because of Metrojax I took Amtrack for the first time from Boston to Portland and we would do it again.
Check out pictures 3, 10, 11, 14, 17, 26 27, 28
Kim Delaney next time you VISIT JACKSONVILLE lets kayak McCoys Creek under the Times Union. You fire me up. So now to bring back Amtrack to Downtown we are now going to have to destroy more of our history?
And of course the city council has shot us in the foot with their mobility fee moratorium that could encourage TOD development near our beautiful Jax Terminal.
Another fine example of our backwards town. I'm sure the "Transportaion Center" will continue, then 'run out of money, or not be funded, so this will never come off the ground for Jax. Another missed opportunity. Maybe we'll get lucky and they will decide to redo the whole plan, and bring it back to the terminal, as they should.
This is great news. This past year we attempted to use Florida's rail service, and found it to be so inadequate that we ended up driving. Hopefully we can channel this into some new downtown development.
This would be a huge win for Downtown, if we could get the station relocated. Either way it does spell jobs for Jacksonville.
Need to turn this around...
QuoteOne of the most puzzling issues with the planning and promotion of the Flagler Line is the silence of Jacksonville's officials on this project.
I will believe it when I see it. Too many years of feet dragging for me to begin holding my breath.
Don't kid yourselves. The city's not going to do anything that would promote public transit in any way & something that would make any kind of sense of it all. And putting the station downtown & back into the Terminal, which coincidentally feeds into the as-of-now mostly useless Skyway, would indeed do just that. Nope, they'd rather leave the station out in the middle of bum fu*k nowhere & use a perfectly good urban transit terminal to host a handful of conventions every year. Yeah, that's the ticket.
For now we need to get Amtrak into Jax Terminal with the tunnels and share the space with the few conventions we have. There is already a bus stop there, skyway there and we could sit like that until streetcar moves forward. It would be ok if Greyhound was not coming yet if it wasn't moving at all. Right now you can access Greyhound from the skyway.
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
The movement of the Amtrak station has as much to do with Amtrak as it does with the City or FDOT. If Amtrak really wanted to move, it would be worked out by now. They are all talk, but at this point have put zero dollars toward the move. While the track, platform and station configuration are being hashed out, and paid for by FDOT. Amtrak hasn't put anything towards the design costs.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
Same reason why we are giving incentives to move Everbank from one part of town to another. Brings more activity to the core of the city.
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2012, 01:09:03 PM
The movement of the Amtrak station has as much to do with Amtrak as it does with the City or FDOT. If Amtrak really wanted to move, it would be worked out by now. They are all talk, but at this point have put zero dollars toward the move. While the track, platform and station configuration are being hashed out, and paid for by FDOT. Amtrak hasn't put anything towards the design costs.
Are you saying that Amtrak hasn't spent any money on the entire FEC line or just the station in Jacksonville?
To address the question about the city pushing for the move, who would be the leader of that charge? Would it come from the Mayor himself? Give him a little time to understand the situation, and I think he would be in favor of the move. I wonder if anyone advocating for the move has brought it to his attention?
Quote from: mbwright on January 09, 2012, 08:51:34 AM
Another fine example of our backwards town. I'm sure the "Transportation Center" will continue, then 'run out of money, or not be funded, so this will never come off the ground for Jax. Another missed opportunity. Maybe we'll get lucky and they will decide to redo the whole plan, and bring it back to the terminal, as they should.
FIRST, REMEMBER JACKSONVILLE DOES HAVE AMTRAK SERVICE AT ITS OWN PISS POOR AMTRAK STATION. So moving Amtrak back downtown is not a choice of having or not having passenger train services, it is however a question of just how badly we want trains and their workforce in downtown.
Remember folks in Conservative Florida, R-A-I-L is a four letter word, and Jacksonville is the cheerleader of the conservatives. Located somewhere to the far right of John Birch, we need to kick this city into reality, we don't all own cars, and many of us that do would dearly love to have the monitory relief that decent public transportation, both intra and intercity would bring. In this respect the governor fails miserably, FDOT getting its advice from CUTR/USF the very epicenter of the anti rail - bus transit lobby is F**ked, and JTA has fumbled the ball so many times they might as well be wearing the other teams jerseys.
WELCOME TO JACKSONVILLE! While we haven't quite obtained the moniker 'Wart of The World, In The Armpit Of The Great Frog', we're working on it.
JTA apparently believes convention goers would not have a problem dealing with Amtrak passengers, but cannot under any circumstances mingle with bus passengers. The fact that along with airline passengers, they are often one in the same has never occurred to this 'authority.' Even if we get Amtrak back in downtown, the JRTC plan is so flawed that the station will never have the vibrancy to make it the economic engine it could be. Without Greyhounds passenger numbers in addition to Megabus, La Cubana, Autobus, JTA bus and the skyway ALL IN ONE PLACE, you'll never have the critical mass for retail, restaurants, boutiques etc...
Until 1971, the old station typically handled twice Amtrak's total, annual, Jacksonville passenger count, IN TWO DAYS! Yet for 'social gentrification' we are going to scatter our passengers all over LaVilla
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
Don't build a new one put Amtrak in a very old one, Jax Terminal. Leave Greyhound where they are but if are going to build them one don't put it blocks away from our old transit terminal.
that doesn't really answer my question jeffrey
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
They should relocate Amtrak because their current station may be the biggest embarrassment this city currently endures and they should build a compact transit center at Jax terminal for the benefit creating a more useful transit system. Then rent Greyhound some space if they have to move.
Why is St. Augustine planning to build a new terminal at the airport? What a boner move.
How about here (http://g.co/maps/eyrtd)?
Quote from: Jaxson on January 09, 2012, 11:41:15 AM
I will believe it when I see it. Too many years of feet dragging for me to begin holding my breath.
I agree. I'll believe it when I'm sitting on the train.
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2012, 01:09:03 PM
The movement of the Amtrak station has as much to do with Amtrak as it does with the City or FDOT. If Amtrak really wanted to move, it would be worked out by now. They are all talk, but at this point have put zero dollars toward the move. While the track, platform and station configuration are being hashed out, and paid for by FDOT. Amtrak hasn't put anything towards the design costs.
Why does this not surprise me? This is simply fallout from the top, IE: President Obama promoting billions of dollars of 'high speed rail' while Amtrak withers on the vine. Just as the recent editorial in TRAINS MAGAZINE stated, the idea that this country can go from zero to two hundred eighty six in one magical leap is horribly flawed. Until such time as we get someone in the White House, who is sympathetic if not downright enthusiastic about Amtrak's potential, we will continue to fall up the down staircase.
I know my harping on FDOT and JTA is fatiguing, but these issues in regards to Jacksonville simply must be resolved, issues that in some cases (streetcar & Amtrak) are now over 30 years in the dark.
My scorecard on this?
AMTRAK - FAIL
FDOT - FAIL
FLORIDAS CHIEF EXECUTIVE - FAIL
COJ - FAIL
JTA - FAIL
MAYOR BROWN - ? OPPORTUNITY ?
Funding a surface transportation terminal to be used by both government and private carriers is no different then funding, building and operating JIA or JAXPORT. Never read the menu from the right hand side...
OCK
Quote from: acme54321 on January 09, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
Why is St. Augustine planning to build a new terminal at the airport? What a boner move.
How about here (http://g.co/maps/eyrtd)?
they aren't...they intend to use the old FEC station....but the airport authority wants the station at the airport to create a "true multi-modal hub"
Quote from: acme54321 on January 09, 2012, 02:10:35 PM
Why is St. Augustine planning to build a new terminal at the airport? What a boner move.
How about here (http://g.co/maps/eyrtd)?
Actually our placement of the airport plan in this article might have been a bit misleading. YES, St. Augustine studied and considered a terminal across the highway and physically connected to it's airport. With over 6 million annual visitors, St. Augustine is courting several commercial airlines that have shown an interest in the city.
In total the considerations were:
*A station due west of the Fire Station on US - 1 across from the Flagler College (former FEC Ry) buildings and an easy walk into downtown.
*A station at the former FEC RY station, which is still standing though the mainline has been removed a few hundred feet south.
*A station at the regional airport.
The winning AMTRAK location is the former FEC RY STATION, which has more then ample parking, and is a nearly turnkey facility.
The Airport station is still being considered as a future commuter rail station (as it should).
Keep in mind that St. Augustine's SUNSHINE BUS is a TRUE national award winning city transit service, and I'm certain they will play a huge role in moving the masses to and from any rail station or the airport. Jacksonville residents wanting a day in the ancient city without the drive can transfer to SUNSHINE BUS at the Avenues Mall.
OCK
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
They should relocate Amtrak because their current station may be the biggest embarrassment this city currently endures and they should build a compact transit center at Jax terminal for the benefit creating a more useful transit system. Then rent Greyhound some space if they have to move.
but the city didn't build either of the existing Amtrak or Greyhound stations....the transport provider did.
(keep in mind I'm just playing devil's advocate here)
and to Ock's point.....the new terminals at JIA are paid for by users (departure/arrival taxes) and airline (gate fees)....as for JaxPort, those are usually paid for by bonds, which are repaid using user fees.
Amtrak, so far, has said no to such a surcharge for riders/users.
Our city's leaders are shamefully lazy and lacking vision on this one...
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2012, 02:27:43 PM
Keep in mind that St. Augustine's SUNSHINE BUS is a TRUE national award winning city transit service, and I'm certain they will play a huge role in moving the masses to and from any rail station or the airport. Jacksonville residents wanting a day in the ancient city without the drive can transfer to SUNSHINE BUS at the Avenues Mall.
correct....the recently updated Transit development Plan for Sunshine Bus includes the FEC station as a transfer center....with 5 routes (3 existing and 2 proposed) serving it.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:28:09 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 02:04:57 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 01:08:27 PM
just a question to pose...why should the City or JTA spend money to build/re-build Amtrak (or Greyhound for that matter) a new station?
They should relocate Amtrak because their current station may be the biggest embarrassment this city currently endures and they should build a compact transit center at Jax terminal for the benefit creating a more useful transit system. Then rent Greyhound some space if they have to move.
but the city didn't build either of the existing Amtrak or Greyhound stations....the transport provider did.
(keep in mind I'm just playing devil's advocate here)
and to Ock's point.....the new terminals at JIA are paid for by users (departure/arrival taxes) and airline (gate fees)....as for JaxPort, those are usually paid for by bonds, which are repaid using user fees.
Amtrak, so far, has said no to such a surcharge for riders/users.
Playing devil's advocate here myself, how would moving the station back to downtown in the name of economic development be any different from giving financial incentives to companies like Everbank and Fidelity for job creation?
Unfortunately Brown appears to be getting pulled in two directions here. On the one hand he's committed to his campaign promise of downtown development; getting Amtrack downtown and building a transportation center online may well help with that. However, on the other, he's hearing that this transit center will be an expensive boondoggle (sometimes combined with the theme that any government spending is bad, and that the COJ is virtually incapable of doing anything right).
For the mayor to get behind this, he and his administration need to hear the fair truth. They needs to understand that (1) the transit center is good and would be a benefit to downtown development, but (2) that the current design needs to be tweaked to consolidate it and reduce the cost.
We also need to recognize how big the EverBank deal played in the ultimate decision to move Greyhound as soon as possible.
So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....
Good analogy Lake....the concept behind the deals would be very similar...let's compare
the Everbank deal brings 1500 employees downtown everyday to a largely empty building....the City pays $2.75 million (subsidizes moving expenses) and $2 million from the state/city when the bank creates 200 new jobs
the Amtrak move would likely cost over $15 million and bring 1500+ riders through Jacksonville every day...but far fewer would get on/off here.
And based on what's happening in NYC right now, it doesn't seem like Amtrak would be interested in paying higher rent
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-22/amtrak-says-it-needs-new-york-station-that-may-be-too-costly.html
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....
that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....
that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.
That is what we need to change. Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility. I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.
Quote from: Tacachale on January 09, 2012, 02:43:17 PM
Unfortunately Brown appears to be getting pulled in two directions here. On the one hand he's committed to his campaign promise of downtown development; getting Amtrack downtown and building a transportation center online may well help with that. However, on the other, he's hearing that this transit center will be an expensive boondoggle (sometimes combined with the theme that any government spending is bad, and that the COJ is virtually incapable of doing anything right).
For the mayor to get behind this, he and his administration need to hear the fair truth. They needs to understand that (1) the transit center is good and would be a benefit to downtown development, but (2) that the current design needs to be tweaked to consolidate it and reduce the cost.
We also need to recognize how big the EverBank deal played in the ultimate decision to move Greyhound as soon as possible.
Unfortunately, I fear the JRTC will be an expensive boondoggle in its current state. However, getting Amtrak back downtown doesn't necessarily mean having to build what has been proposed in the JRTC plan. Nevertheless, I think the first thing that needs to be addressed with the JRTC is the convention center issue. Either its going to move or it isn't. That's a decision that needs to come to a resolution soon, imo. Once that decision if firm, the issue could then take multiple turns depending on if it stays or not.
Frankly, Amtrak doesnt want to pay for anything right now. If this is going to happen. It has to be local, state and maybe some federal money in there. Up to this point, Amtrak has not put any money towards the design of either the relocation of the station here in Jacksonville or on the FEC project. They say all day long how bad they want to be downtown, but money talks and you know what walks!
I do agree with Lake, the Convention Center issue needs to be addressed immediately.
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....
that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.
That is what we need to change. Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility. I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.
ok...so we move the convention center...how much does that cost, who pays, and when can a new one be built?
Let's say we're rich, move on this right away, and have a new center built by 2015....are you willing to wait that long to relocate Amtrak....and is Everbak willing to wait that long on relocating Greyhound?
I say we don't move the convention center until we can get a private partner for the deal. If our current center can share the space you may see more interest in a hotel near by or other services in the area. Let's add our small convention business to our small transit business to create a little more business.
But if we were rich Tufsu1 and ready to build a new one just temporarily house the convention business in the under used Jax Arena.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:48:39 PM
Good analogy Lake....the concept behind the deals would be very similar...let's compare
the Everbank deal brings 1500 employees downtown everyday to a largely empty building....the City pays $2.75 million (subsidizes moving expenses) and $2 million from the state/city when the bank creates 200 new jobs
the Amtrak move would likely cost over $15 million and bring 1500+ riders through Jacksonville every day...but far fewer would get on/off here.
And based on what's happening in NYC right now, it doesn't seem like Amtrak would be interested in paying higher rent
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2011-12-22/amtrak-says-it-needs-new-york-station-that-may-be-too-costly.html
I fail to see why getting Amtrak back downtown should run as much as $15 million unless we're considering some expensive bells and whistles in the plan going along with the move. Several peer cities have recently developed intermodal centers that include Amtrak as one of several modes and those projects have fallen inbetween $20 and $30 million.
Also, I threw out two mega deals (Everbank & Fidelity) that immediately popped in my head. If you want an analogy, let me offer some other JEDC incentive deals for a more accurate comparison. How about Latitude Software, Medtronic Xomed Inc., or the KCI Aviation deals of 2011?
Also, isn't Amtrak's plan's to split and combine Florida trains in Jacksonville? If so, that makes us a potential rail hub. How many well paying railroad jobs would be created locally at the site in the event that rail service continues to grow in the future, as proposed? Where will maintenance facilities be needed when additional expansion comes? Perhaps in the vicinity of the hub where additional rail support operations are already taking place? I'm not a railroad guy but is it safe to assume that these jobs are paid significantly higher salaries than the Jacksonville average? When talking about the economics of moving Amtrak back downtown, one would need to factor these items into the equation as well.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:59:19 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 02:55:41 PM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 02:51:20 PM
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 09, 2012, 02:45:41 PM
So in the interim, move Greyhound into the former black waiting room in the old station....
that isn't going to happen as long as the Prime is still used as a convention center.
That is what we need to change. Jax Terminal should be a multi use facility. I bet if we did combine the uses that you might see more movement on getting a new Convention center.
ok...so we move the convention center...how much does that cost, who pays, and when can a new one be built?
This is the stuff that should be figured out now. I'd say this is your "first phase" of addressing the JRTC design issue.
QuoteLet's say we're rich, move on this right away, and have a new center built by 2015....are you willing to wait that long to relocate Amtrak....and is Everbak willing to wait that long on relocating Greyhound?
Move Greyhound to the skyway station block and integrate the two together. As for Amtrak, we'd have to be willing to use some existing space within the existing terminal instead of the more extensive concept shown in the JRTC renderings.
I am warming up to the idea of us having a convention center in a working train station. Would that be a unique feature to sell? I don't know.
The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.
^This sounds like a potential public private partnership type of deal or something that could be suitable for a variety of matching grants out there. It actually sounds like something that would align with the goals of the upcoming (highly competitive) TIGER IV program.
Yes it does. I know that JTA wanted to submit last round, but was told to stand down....the Port comes first! I really do not think the Mayor understands the positive impact this would have on Downtown.
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2012, 03:23:29 PM
The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.
yes...which is why I said $15+ million
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 03:18:14 PM
I am warming up to the idea of us having a convention center in a working train station. Would that be a unique feature to sell? I don't know.
when the Prime is really humming (like the car show) every single space is used....so the train station would have to be in a separate structure adjacent (which may be the best short-term plan anyway).
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 03:35:56 PM
Quote from: fsujax on January 09, 2012, 03:23:29 PM
The major cost is not the actual station improvements. It is the track and signal upgrades that CSX, FEC, NS and Amtrak want.
yes...which is why I said $15+ million
I'd be interested to see cost estimates itemized. Is there a publicly accessible budget breakdown of this project? Has planning gotten that far?
Sounds to me like we're standing in the middle and trying to pull away in four directions at once. As has been stated, the issue at hand for the Brown administration is to give a thumbs up or down to the eventual convention center move. If that move didn't happen until 2015 or 2018 it wouldn't matter so long as we STOP the current JRTC nonsense dead in its tracks.
The apparent need to abandon the current Greyhound station for a new isolated station for the sole purpose of social, racial and class segregation could be answered in any number of ways.
The former Black waiting room (which is exactly what New Orleans did at their Union Station Transportation Center) could be utilized and the room temporarily cut from convention space. Depending on peak loads it is possible that all bus and train operations could work from this space as a strictly interim basis.
Greyhound could also be easily handled at the Skyway Lot with a portable temporary station, anyone want to reassemble our pre-fab cruise terminal downtown?
Convention Business could be temporarily farmed out to the Arena or split between the two with Potato Chip Truck Trolley's serving as a shuttle link.
Amtrak is currently handling about 190 PASSENGERS daily at Jacksonville, or about 95 per train. For business and capacity considerations we would have to calculate for Uncle Al and Aunt Sue and the kids, meeting the train. This should mean at the current rate, Amtrak would probably attract between 300 - 600 people into the station daily.
Amtrak's current station, with a single passing siding along a double track mainline could be duplicated at Jacksonville Terminal for chump change. They split trains out there from 1974 until they were forced by budget cuts to give up the route through Ocala. For a simple split or combination of a single train, two tracks are all that is needed. They still own the Clifford Lane property and any equipment needing to be pulled from service could be spotted there.
If Amtrak could not be accommodated at the current 'building' a portable 'AMSHACK' of the same type used all over the country would make due.
FEC, CSX, NS and AMTRAK, naturally want the most bang for the buck if the citizens foot the bill for trackage changes at the terminal, nobody can fault them for that. Remember that Amtrak is about as welcome in most of the industry as your neighbor who decides his lawn shed must be 12 feet inside your back yard. WHAT WOULD YOU DO? Assuming that everything ran like clockwork the railroads see a need for immediate capacity increases, a need for junction and signal improvements, a need to add passengers and their trains into the terminal mix, a need to watch for the oft talked about 'commuter rail' and the many more tracks it will require.
IF the convention center is going to go, the 'JRTC' needs to be immediately stopped and a new consolidated plan developed. If this is not done, we surrender our transportation center opportunities for decades.
Future railroad storage and maintenance could be handled at the old yard on/under the Conrad Yelvington site, with still contains 8+ tracks and ties directly into the terminal throat.
OCKLAWAHA
Here is that 'CRITICAL' convention center schedule from 2010... About 1.5 per month! 18 total events, count how many of these events actually brought in large numbers from out of town... Contrast this with Amtrak which brought 2920 'events' to town last year in the form of each arrival and departure. Don't make me laugh, this thing is a sad joke in a wonderful palace.
JACKSONVILLE SENIOR EXPO
May 19 & 20, 2010
THE SOUTHEAST US BOAT SHOW
September 10-12, 2010
THE FLORIDA BLACK EXPO
October 9 & 10, 2010
WORLD CONGRESS & EXPO
ON DISABILITIES
November 15-19, 2010
THE 26.2 WITH DONNA
HEALTH & FITNESS EXPO
February 19 & 20, 2010
SALVATION ARMY CELEBRITY CHEF TASTING LUNCHEON
March 11, 2010
THE GRAND CHAMPIONSHIPS
April 11, 2010
CHAMBER OF COMMERCE
BUSINESS EXPO
May 26, 2010
QUILTFEST 2010
September 23-25, 2010
JACKSONVILLE NATIONAL COLLEGE FAIR
October 16, 2010
EMPTY BOWLS LUNCHEON
November 16, 2010
JACKSONVILLE MODEL TRAIN & RAILROAD ARTIFACT
SHOW & SALE
February 20, 2010
ALL STAR CHALLENGE
CHEER & DANCE
NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS
March 20 & 21, 2010
ADMINISTRATIVE PROFESSIONALS
CONFERENCE & EXPO
April 14, 2010
HOME SCHOOL CURRICULUM CONFERENCE
July 16 & 17, 2010
FALL JACKSONVILLE HOME & PATIO SHOW
Sept 30-Oct 3, 2010
SOUTHERN WOMEN'S SHOW
October 21-24 , 2010
CHRISTMAS MADE
IN THE SOUTH
November 26-28, 2010
How can that line up not share the space with Amtrak, MegaBus, Greyhound, Streetcar, the skyway and a small mall? Answer it can.
Jeffery, for now it certainly could... Down the road, if we could get the convention center out of there we could utilize the current convention 'box' behind the historic station as the site for bus and motor coach operations, condensing the entire station down to the exact size of the original terminal and stub yard. All of that and we wouldn't even have to bother our current parking lot west of station.
OCK
It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use. Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?
MORE LIKE A LARGE PHONE BOOTH AND AN OUTHOUSE...
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote from: thelakelander on December 28, 2011, 04:10:45 PM
Quote
"People who are coming in from out of town want to feel safe and kind of want to feel like an 'island.' All of a sudden you have a multimodal and you have all the people who are locally based and it's kind of like oil and water."
So conventioneers and the local population can't mix because they are afraid of us... Banjo music anyone? As for travelers, how in hell is anyone going to 'feel like an island' when they have to walk all over La Villa to connect?
OCKLAWAHA
This smacks of the 'Jim Crow or Immigrant Train era.' The perverted logic of this excuse says that passengers who use the bus are unfit for social interaction with the greater community. Transferring passengers to and from Amtrak are welcome as long as they don't go to the 'bus station.' A metamorphosis takes place as soon as one walks through the doors of a free standing Greyhound station, students, senior citizens and bus tour groups, regardless of race, income or social status in Jacksonville are labeled UNDESIRABLES. Be very careful if you ever need to ride the bus to Gainesville as 'ARBEIT MACHT FREI' is alive and well in Jacksonville.
...And yes, ALL IS LOST if we let this carrier to escape, losing Greyhound DOES KILL THE JRTC, because basically you have Amtrak intercity LONG-DISTANCE, plus, local bus and local Skyway as an URBAN DISTRIBUTER and Greyhound for regional transfers. Remove Greyhound and you have kicked the regional connectivity completely out of the picture. REMOVE GREYHOUND AND YOU REMOVE 'REGIONAL' HENCE THE WHOLE CONCEPTUAL FUNCTIONALITY OF THE STRUCTURE COLLAPSES.
FROM THE THREAD - BACKGROUND STORY BEHIND JTA GREYHOUND TERMINAL.
SOME ARE TELLING US A COMPANY FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY AREA, TRANSPLANTED TO JACKSONVILLE, IS PROMOTING THIS SEGREGATION? REALLY?OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 09, 2012, 09:20:58 PM
It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use. Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?
My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.
12,835,000 SOURCE JTA, apron. based on October 7 ridership release (includes Skyway)
70,728 SOURCE AMTRAK FLORIDA FACT SHEET 2010
3,200,000 SOURCE, Greyhound Lines CEO
16,106,720 TOTAL annual surface transportation ridership in Jacksonville today, or about 44,128 daily. Comically this ASSumes that the entire ridership of JTA will pass through the terminal, when a small fraction is more likely. The Jacksonville terminal handled about 55,000 daily circa 1925, before it's mid-Florida boom expansion was completed.
Can't handle what?
OCK
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 09:06:23 PM
How can that line up not share the space with Amtrak, MegaBus, Greyhound, Streetcar, the skyway and a small mall? Answer it can.
go to the auto show (which is attended by thousands of people) this year and answer it yourself...better yet, go to the MLK breakfast and see how the entire exhibit hall is used for one sit down meal.
and no folks, the auto show will not fit inside the arena or the indoor space at the fairgrounds!
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 09, 2012, 09:20:58 PM
It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use. Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?
My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.
wrong...the out of town conferences and trade shows will go somewhere else
So your take is that the Jax Terminal's use should be exclusively based on the parking issues of two days a year. How about they use Kings ave and the skyway. Not being sarcastic parking should be mitigated if the alternate use proposed to share the building is transit.
It isn't a parking issue....the entire building (exhibit hall, atrium, meeting rooms, black waiting room, grand hall) is filled with new cars....and by comparison with other cities, our auto show is pretty small.
Could the cars be moved from the old black waiting room to outside under a temporary structure (if the space were shared for a few years)?
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 10:31:47 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 09, 2012, 09:20:58 PM
It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use. Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?
My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.
wrong...the out of town conferences and trade shows will go somewhere else
Which conference do you think we would lose? Don't we mostly book traveling shows that want to hit every city they can?
If it is an image thing don't start with local bus service other than a normal bus stop. Integrate the more choice transit options first.
I do think the logic is flawed. I love the St. Louis convention center because transit converges there.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 09, 2012, 11:23:02 PM
Could the cars be moved from the old black waiting room to outside under a temporary structure (if the space were shared for a few years)?
guess that would be up to the local dealers association...but assuming you are suggesting the waiting room get used for Greyhound, where would all the buses park (last night there were at least 10 buses at the Greyhound station when I drove by at 10pm)?
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 10, 2012, 12:04:40 AM
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 09, 2012, 10:31:47 PM
Quote from: JeffreyS on January 09, 2012, 09:26:18 PM
Quote from: Charles Hunter on January 09, 2012, 09:20:58 PM
It is not so much whether the building could handle conventions, Amtrak, and intercity bus, but whether the convention folks (Visitor Bureau and SMG) will allow multi-use. Could the Fair Grounds handle the events listed above?
My guess is that they will if the Mayor and Council say they will.
wrong...the out of town conferences and trade shows will go somewhere else
Which conference do you think we would lose? Don't we mostly book traveling shows that want to hit every city they can?
If it is an image thing don't start with local bus service other than a normal bus stop. Integrate the more choice transit options first.
I do think the logic is flawed. I love the St. Louis convention center because transit converges there.
Jeffrey...I too like the idea that transit converges at a convention center....but that is different from sharing the same space.
There are many conventions that Jax. routinely hosted in the past that have been lost just due to outgrowing the Prime....one example is the state cheerleading competition....many conventions/conferences like using the grand hall (old train station lobby space) as a banquet area.....if that were once again used for trains, the space wouldn't be available....which might be enough to tilt the scales againt Jax. for some conventions.
Bottom line, Jax. needs to step up to the plate, commit to relocationg the convention center and get a plan in place fast....if that isn't feasible, then add onto the back of the Prime for more convention space.....then convert the front of the Prime back to its original purpose and become the multimodal center.
If, in the meantime, Greyhound has to move.....fine, put them in the block next to the Skyway (between Forsyth and Houston).
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 10, 2012, 08:23:47 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 09, 2012, 11:23:02 PM
Could the cars be moved from the old black waiting room to outside under a temporary structure (if the space were shared for a few years)?
guess that would be up to the local dealers association...but assuming you are suggesting the waiting room get used for Greyhound, where would all the buses park (last night there were at least 10 buses at the Greyhound station when I drove by at 10pm)?
I was specifically envisioning Amtrak but if we're talking about Greyhound, I think one of the three blocks on the northside of Bay (between I-95 and Lee Street) could be designed to accommodate their needs while also being integrated with the skyway.
I think we need to do some assessment of what we might lose (conventions and shows that are here or realistic to return) versus what we would gain by moving forward on the proper transit center. I am not claiming to know if the shows we currently have would be upset or not. I also don't know if the city garners much benefit from our small amount of convention space business. I would like to think bundled uses could drive more life into the area.
that makes sense and could work for Amtrak....I thought you were talking about Greyhound as that was one of Ock's suggestions earlier in the thread.....I think there is less of a perception problem in Amtrak mixing with a convention center than there is with Greyhound.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 10, 2012, 08:42:39 AM
that makes sense and could work for Amtrak....I thought you were talking about Greyhound as that was one of Ock's suggestions earlier in the thread.....I think there is less of a perception problem in Amtrak mixing with a convention center than there is with Greyhound.
Yeah maybe one step at a time.
I''m happy they finally made a decision. I can't wait until the train is running, and hopefully the station will be downtown.
If one of the things worrying certain people is the so-called undesirable element associated with bus stations, or Greyhound bus stations in particular, then forcing mixed transportation to co-mingle at the Prime is a good thing.
Dilution of the stereotyped individuals and consolidation of policing efforts instead of the gross separation now planned will be a cost saving benefit.
Why is it so hard to see that when the traveling public can step easily from one mode of transportation to another, without chasing the ride for blocks and without a route navigation nightmare, everyone benefits and public transportation looses its under class status.
I am sending the following email to my city council member ---
Dear Mr. Bishop,
I would like to know where you stand on returning the Amtrak passenger rail station to the historic Union Terminal building at the Prime Osborn Convention Center. I believe that it is important that our local and state authorities take action to relocate the passenger rail station from Clifford Lane in some form for the following reasons:
1. The current Clifford Lane station is isolated from meaningful modes of transportation and services. Having traveled by train to other cities, I have a great appreciation of being able to access lodging, retail and ground transportation from stations such as those that are located in Orlando, Tampa, Boston, Washington DC, New York and others. For example, when I spent my spring break in New York, I was able to arrive at Penn Station and was able to hail a taxi to a nearby hotel for less than $15. Furthermore, I was able to have lunch at a nearby midtown Manhattan restaurant. Relocating Amtrak to the Union Terminal would enable rail passengers to access downtown hotels, stores and restaurants. They would be able to best avail themselves of the Skyway and other means of getting around the immediate area.
2. With plans underway for Amtrak to operate passenger rail lines on the FEC tracks, it would make more sense for a central location for trains to run on CSX and FEC tracks from downtown Jacksonville. Our local elected leaders have been woefully silent on this issue that has gotten more traction in other cities on the FEC route that have taken action to make their stations more efficient and accessible.
Please contact me with your thoughts. Thank you and have a nice day.
v/r,
//signed//
John Louis Meeks, Jr.
Constituent
As of today, no response from my city council member's office... DRAT!
Here is the reply that I received from City Councilman Bishop...
Mr. Meeks: I think it would be fantastic if Amtrak relocated back to the former train station/now convention center. This facility was designed as a train station and it would be great for the convention center as well. It is my understanding that Amtrak would like to do this and that it is in JTA's master plan for the multi-modal transportation center at that location.
William Bishop, AIA
Council Member, District 2
Profound.
Indeed.
Quote from: Jaxson on January 24, 2012, 08:29:56 PM
Here is the reply that I received from City Councilman Bishop...
Mr. Meeks: I think it would be fantastic if Amtrak relocated back to the former train station/now convention center. This facility was designed as a train station and it would be great for the convention center as well. It is my understanding that Amtrak would like to do this and that it is in JTA's master plan for the multi-modal transportation center at that location.
William Bishop, AIA
Council Member, District 2
Boing!
Perhaps it would be better to resend the letter explaining to Mr. Bishop that JTA's pending grant for "A new Greyhound Station" will completely undermine the very concept of a transportation center.
Will this project and/or the commuter rail project involve the replacement of the existing FEC RR bridge over the St. Johns River?
If so, then I'd like to see the existing bridge adapted for re-use by bicyclists and pedestrians.
It's flat, so it would be an ideal way for non-drivers to get across the river.
I don't think we would want to lower the bridge every time a pedestrian or bicyclist wanted to cross the river. I don't know why we would replace the existing bridge unless it is worn out.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 14, 2012, 09:21:55 AM
Will this project and/or the commuter rail project involve the replacement of the existing FEC RR bridge over the St. Johns River?
If so, then I'd like to see the existing bridge adapted for re-use by bicyclists and pedestrians.
It's flat, so it would be an ideal way for non-drivers to get across the river.
I doubt it, it's already a double-track bridge, and the freight trains weight a lot more than passenger trains, so it's more than capable of handling the traffic. Also FEC is spending big money this year to renovate the bridge I doubt they'd be doing that if they were replacing it shortly.
The expense of building an unneeded river crossing would easily kill both of these projects. If we want an extra crossing for bike/ped, perhaps we should consider something like this for the Fuller Warren between Riverside and San Marco?
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-3075-p1020527.jpg)
Quote from: JeffreyS on March 14, 2012, 09:27:13 AM
I don't think we would want to lower the bridge every time a pedestrian or bicyclist wanted to cross the river. I don't know why we would replace the existing bridge unless it is worn out.
Just leave the bridge down except when a boat comes through.
That's the way it works for the Main Street Bridge and the Ortega River bridge.
Quote from: thelakelander on March 14, 2012, 09:37:56 AM
The expense of building an unneeded river crossing would easily kill both of these projects. If we want an extra crossing for bike/ped, perhaps we should consider something like this for the Fuller Warren between Riverside and San Marco?
With this option I doubt that you could maintain sufficient vertical clearance beneath the bridge. It would be more practical to put a barrier separated bike lane on the existing bridge deck.
With commuter rail on the FEC bridge, I wonder how you could maintain capacity for existing or projected levels of freight traffic.
Nashville and Chattanooga have both made pedestrian bridges out of obsolete or redundant structures. Both bridges have contributed to the vibrancy of their respective downtowns. If the FEC bridge ever becomes obsolete, I would like to see it reused for bicycle and foot traffic.
If it ever becomes redundant or obsolete, I'd like to see the same outcome for the old Shands Bridge between Clay County and St. .Johns County.
QuoteWith this option I doubt that you could maintain sufficient vertical clearance beneath the bridge. It would be more practical to put a barrier separated bike lane on the existing bridge deck.
I agree. There's a good example on I-279 in downtown Pittsburgh.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/592818468_cMEoo-M.jpg)
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 14, 2012, 11:52:19 AM
With commuter rail on the FEC bridge, I wonder how you could maintain capacity for existing or projected levels of freight traffic.
I doubt it's anywhere near capacity. It probably receives a small fraction of the traffic it got in the 1940s.
I am not an expert on this topic, but from what I've heard I believe that passenger trains suck up a lot of track capacity, and that the FEC is currently hauling freight at all-time record levels.
Isn't there somebody out there who has the expertise that is needed to resolve this question?
I would like to see that bridge adapted for use by pedestrian and bicycle traffic IF - and only IF - it is ever replaced.
Think of it as an urban rails-to-trails project.
Not a chance. Sorry. Maybe time to think about a cantilever bike/walks on some of our 'FREEway' bridges. Matthews, Buckman, Fuller Warren, Hart, Captain Broward?
Quote from: thelakelander on March 14, 2012, 12:32:01 PM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on March 14, 2012, 11:52:19 AM
With commuter rail on the FEC bridge, I wonder how you could maintain capacity for existing or projected levels of freight traffic.
I doubt it's anywhere near capacity. It probably receives a small fraction of the traffic it got in the 1940s.
Actually in freight tonnage, the FEC bridge gets many times the traffic it did even at the peak of WWII. Toss back in the 10 passenger trains each way daily and this whole line approaches gridlock without RE-double tracking all the way to Miami. Modern signaling protects the whole route and allows for this growth of traffic on a mostly single track railroad south of Sunbeam Road. The thing to watch when laying the FEC and CSX mainlines side by side south of Jacksonville, is the FEC is mostly the carrier of containers, autoracks and TOFC, and the CSX handles more rock, coal etc...