Metro Jacksonville

Changing the Urban Landscape in 2012

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1493784670_ZKwP76S-M.jpg)

With Mayor Alvin Brown, public, and private sector leaders making downtown revitalization a true commitment, here are five projects that could stimulate additional life in downtown in 2012.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2012-jan-changing-the-urban-landscape-in-2012

Who are the Public/Private sector leaders? Brooklyn, Stonewall at Chelsea St. and that immediate potential canoe and kayak launch along with Brooklyn Park and the Tomahawk Park that is in District 5  can be an immediate organic cluster of organic economic development with a bike rack and a Mayor Brown kayak launch logo. Who wants to kayak under the TU?

Shipyards III The Historic Promised 680' Downtown Public Pier also can be opened immediately. Was there yesterday.  The St. Johns River our American Heritage River a Federal Initiative flows through the heart of our city. Who wants to kayak and fish under the Riverwalk and the new Waterways issued no fishing signs?
It Khan Happen.

That's a great list, these are exactly the kind of things we need, things that foster organic growth by bringing people into the core.

Very cool. Are Laura street trio and Riverside Ave done deals? Or heck is that even a real phrase anymore :)

QuoteThe feasibility of this project will receive a huge boost with EverBank Center and the Duval County Courthouse both being a potential Skyway ride away.

Which Skyway station would they use?  The O&M center is clearly the closest, but currently isn't on the line for passengers.  The Convention Center station is 1,500 feet away from the closest point.

(http://i41.tinypic.com/wbcmdl.jpg)

Doug, I think the article is assuming that the promised Riverside Ave station would get built.  i don't know if there is a formal agreement to build this station is in place, and who would pay for it if the agreement was in place, but the renderings for the Brooklyn Park development usually showed a skyway stop on Riverside Ave.

Good list. The Laura Street Trio is the next big project the city should focus on. All of these are well suited to help along various smaller projects that will breathe some more life into Downtown.

Great list I guess revamping the sprawlville transportation center design is too much to hope for on this list.  You picked good projects that have a reasonable chance of moving forward this year and have some political will behind them.  Great Job.

I agree.  The Trio is probably the most important goal.  The structure only has a little time left and the location is where we need to focus for synergy. 

The other projects getting done may help the Trio to be a more viable project for the private sector part of the deal.

Great things happening DT especially when you include the possible night life enhancements discussed in "Rockstar's Rumormill":

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14050.msg259477/topicseen.html#new (http://www.metrojacksonville.com/forum/index.php/topic,14050.msg259477/topicseen.html#new)

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 03, 2012, 08:48:01 AM
Doug, I think the article is assuming that the promised Riverside Ave station would get built.  i don't know if there is a formal agreement to build this station is in place, and who would pay for it if the agreement was in place, but the renderings for the Brooklyn Park development usually showed a skyway stop on Riverside Ave.

I looked at the aerial a little closer and see what you're talking about.  There is an extension point just before the maintenance yard that could go to Riverside Avenue.  However, as much as I like the Skyway, I think the streetcar option would be a better solution to connect Brooklyn to DT.

The streetcar is a superior option because it can be extended into Riverside without taking away from the historic district's character.

Do you think there is any possibility that the new owner's of the Brooklyn site(s) will contribute to the cost of the streetcar?  It sure would be a big boost for their development.  If nothing else, a TIF district with funds directed toward the streetcar.

I'm sure they would consider that in lieu of a payment for extending the skyway....either way it is up to JTA and the City to figure out what they want and then ask for it.

Of course if they come in for development during the mobility fee moratorium, they'd only contribute because they're nice citizens (not likely)

What about an inter-modal station over by Brooklyn Park?? Is there room for a trolley barn and a skyway stop??  Since our city doesn't care about making things compact, put the skyway station along the south side of the lake on Riverside Ave, and put the Trolley barn on the north side of the lake towards Park. Bulldoze some buildings in the process and then run the line down park street to 5 Points and Riverside.  I know this is sloppy, but this is Jacksonville and where they love plans like this.

Otherwise, would the trolley line need to start at the JRTC and use the park street viaduct to get over the train tracks??  That way brooklyn park would still only be a trolley ride and a skyway trip from the courthouse, Everbank, and dt.

Quote from: dougskiles on January 03, 2012, 02:13:20 PM
Do you think there is any possibility that the new owner's of the Brooklyn site(s) will contribute to the cost of the streetcar?  It sure would be a big boost for their development.  If nothing else, a TIF district with funds directed toward the streetcar.

Yes.  If there was a mobility fee being taken, the money they would pay for their negative impacts to the surrounding infrastructure network would possibly go into the streetcar pot.

Quote from: tufsu1 on January 03, 2012, 02:29:10 PM
I'm sure they would consider that in lieu of a payment for extending the skyway....either way it is up to JTA and the City to figure out what they want and then ask for it.

Of course if they come in for development during the mobility fee moratorium, they'd only contribute because they're nice citizens (not likely)

Agreed, from what I understand of the situation... it will be a building similar(but smaller) to the Northwind project they have in Atlanta.  Class A, investment grade building with major highway access.

This deal happened b/c of the relationship Pope and Land had with both banks.  As is my understanding.  They are getting prime property, pretty inexpensively, in a commercial area that just had quite a bit of infrastructure added and with a new major exit to I-95/I-10... with some very competitive financing options.

Quote from: Captain Zissou on January 03, 2012, 02:42:21 PM
What about an inter-modal station over by Brooklyn Park?? Is there room for a trolley barn and a skyway stop??  Since our city doesn't care about making things compact, put the skyway station along the south side of the lake on Riverside Ave, and put the Trolley barn on the north side of the lake towards Park. Bulldoze some buildings in the process and then run the line down park street to 5 Points and Riverside.  I know this is sloppy, but this is Jacksonville and where they love plans like this.

Otherwise, would the trolley line need to start at the JRTC and use the park street viaduct to get over the train tracks??  That way brooklyn park would still only be a trolley ride and a skyway trip from the courthouse, Everbank, and dt.

That is good idea.  Good access to the highway, perfect endpoint for a starter streetcar line and the skyway is already there.

These five projects could be enough to sway the opinion here that downtown is moving in the right direction.  If that happened more people would be willing to invest in downtown and perhaps we could create some momentum.

Any idea if the Laura St. Trio is even on the Mayor's radar?

I think so.

QuoteMayor Alvin Brown’s transition staff director made it clear Wednesday that the administration will focus on Downtown.
“We’d like to establish a strong Downtown organizing agency,” said Don Shea, executive director of the Jacksonville Civic Council, to Downtown Vision Inc.’s board of directors.

“We have to focus on the core. The Laura Street trio is ground zero.”

Those were two of the comments from Shea, who was invited to update the board about Brown’s plans for Downtown revitalization and economic development.

“A lot of things are about to happen. I think we have an opportunity to buck national trends and stimulate local growth,” said Shea.

He said there are elements in place for Downtown’s resurgence but “no one is connecting the dots.”

Brown is committed to the formation of an independent authority that would be responsible for bringing more businesses, employees and residents to the urban core.

Shea said such an entity “must have the authority to act” and that historically, when it comes to attracting new business, Jacksonville has been “beaten by out-of-state cities that can move faster.”

One of the challenges faced by the new administration is how to identify funding sources to “bring more people Downtown and fill office space” while remaining true to its pledge to not raise taxes or fees.

Shea said Downtown development would expand the tax base and increase contributions to City revenues.

Following the City’s investment of $3 million for the Laura Street improvement project, Shea said the focus for future development must be on the core of Downtown.

He described the three historic buildings at Laura and Forsyth streets as “ground zero” for the future.

http://www.myjaxchamber.com/news/ne_news_dtl.aspx?param=aQ5dRkQnRzuYddnLUE5SEoqLULM8yX22Xud1D8rXuO0%3D

I’ve not thought much about the teal painted Riverside Trolley until recently, as I’ve seen it coming south on Laura Street past my business.  For some reason, perhaps from nostalgic childhood memories of the old electric rail trolleys of the late forties and the early fifties, it gives my spirits a little boost when I see this teal colored little trolley pass by before turning on Adams Street.

I realize it’s not electric, and does not run on rails, but it somehow adds to the downtown ambiance, an always appreciated boost.  Wouldn’t it be interesting to have these trolleys powered by electric motors.  Of course the battery weight required would probably cause street damage.

The trolley seems to be one of those interesting uses of a kind of art or visual impact, wherein the practical is merged with aesthetics to achieve a positive.  I usually do not like the idea of an imitation, making a bus look like a trolley, preferring a real electric trolley running on rails.
   
But……….. I like this little trolley.  It’s certainly more appealing than the large buses.  I wonder what the ridership statistics show on this thing.  Surely the Everbank and Courthouse openings will affect its route and increase its use.         

Quote from: ronchamblin on January 04, 2012, 01:37:38 AM
I’ve not thought much about the teal painted Riverside Trolley until recently, as I’ve seen it coming south on Laura Street past my business.  For some reason, perhaps from nostalgic childhood memories of the old electric rail trolleys of the late forties and the early fifties, it gives my spirits a little boost when I see this teal colored little trolley pass by before turning on Adams Street.

I realize it’s not electric, and does not run on rails, but it somehow adds to the downtown ambiance, an always appreciated boost.  Wouldn’t it be interesting to have these trolleys powered by electric motors.  Of course the battery weight required would probably cause street damage.

The trolley seems to be one of those interesting uses of a kind of art or visual impact, wherein the practical is merged with aesthetics to achieve a positive.  I usually do not like the idea of an imitation, making a bus look like a trolley, preferring a real electric trolley running on rails.
   
But……….. I like this little trolley.  It’s certainly more appealing than the large buses.  I wonder what the ridership statistics show on this thing.  Surely the Everbank and Courthouse openings will affect its route and increase its use.       

Economically it will fail to match ANY rail vehicle. According to the FTA it dies at 500,000 miles or 12 years. Pretty poor investment for a quarter million when a vintage streetcar costing 3x more will last 100+ years.

It's not just the cute that I don't like about it, really on ANY JTA route it would perform like ANY JTA route, no more, no less. The only bus oriented transit that will kick things up a notch IS BRT, and over-the-road intercity type motor coaches which can be very effective for longer distance transit links, BEACH, OP, ST AUG, etc. 

The whole thing about the so-called trolley (it's not really a trolley or even a trolley bus) is the bogus sales pitch. When one goes to websites of tiny towns and attractions you'll often see stuff like 'we brought back our trolleys', or 'ride our historic trolley' etc... Jacksonville is simply too big and too real to be playing those silly games. Like I've said before, cardboard mock-ups of our Jaguar team might add to the ambiance and it sucks next to a field with the REAL team.

My often commentary about them being glorified 'POTATO CHIP TRUCKS' really does refer to the quality of the ride. Like a school bus or a real potato chip truck, these things are sold with an airbag suspension... ever see a Greyhound MCI bus lean the wrong way on a curve? That's typical of a cheap undercarriage, but larger vehicles ride somewhat nicer with the old airbag systems. Newer or better coaches and buses have a suspension similar to a Mercedes. Really it's the difference in riding in a 1880 vintage Studebaker wagon on a dirt lane or riding in that Mercedes... We deserve better then that in our downtown.

There are a number of off-the-shelf battery powered buses that are on the market.
http://www.proterra.com/  a leader in this area
http://www.designlinecorporation.com/  building a new plant in SC.

Hope this helps explain the why of my rages.

OCKLAWAHA

I know most of you now know this, but some newbies might need these defining photos...

OCK

(http://inlinethumb02.webshots.com/48833/2304274260104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
If it has a tail it's a monkey, if it doesn't have a tail it's an ape, THIS IS A TROLLEY WHEEL, and any vehicle so equiped is a REAL trolley.

(http://inlinethumb64.webshots.com/38271/2311451170104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
The 'classic trolley' this one called a Hollywood Car, on the Pacific Electric Interurban in California when Ock was a pup.

(http://inlinethumb41.webshots.com/48360/2226806400104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
This is another type of trolley, a true trolley bus

(http://inlinethumb05.webshots.com/48452/2982596730104969885S600x600Q85.jpg)
This is what it looks like when the baby dies and the after birth lives!

Though it would not have much impact on 2012. This would certainly be a good year to commit to a complete streets philosophy for the the core.

After spending so much money, time and effort on the Laura st streetscape, revitalizing the Trio should be a no brainer. Why fix up an empty street? If the Trio project dies, I will lose all faith in the leadership of this forever.

^It's not the city who has failed to make it happen. It's the private owners combined with the economy.

As fast as projects move in the suburbs, I'd think that the city can do something if it really wanted to.

Quote from: urbaknight on January 10, 2012, 03:08:21 PM
As fast as projects move in the suburbs, I'd think that the city can do something if it really wanted to.

why should they?

A true public-private partnership involves both sectors....in this case the City rebuilt the street and is willing to provide some incentives/tax credits.

The city has been holding up its end on this one. In fact, the city buying the buildings in the first place is likely why they're still there. And I don't know of any suburban project that's comparable to the Laura Street Trio.

^True.  Corim would have demolished all of them by now if the city didn't purchase them a decade ago.