JRTC Greyhound Terminal Design Moving Forward
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1619759799_h8vC9tD-M.jpg)
Despite significant questions regarding the cost, need, and feasibility of the Jacksonville Regional Transporation Center (JRTC), the design of the JRTC's Greyhound bus terminal has been recommended for final approval by the Downtown Development Review Board (DDRB), for Thursday's DDRB meeting.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-dec-jrtc-greyhound-terminal-design-moving-forward
Waste of money. I can understand the city urgently moving the Greyhound if there were a developer trying to put up a tower on the current site, but come on we all know that will never ever happen. Might as well keep the Greyhound activity in the center of town for now, it does provide some semblance of life around it or the hot dog guy would not be there :)
Quote from: stephendare on December 07, 2011, 08:09:29 AM
Its more of the anti homeless nincompoopery, simms.
The new bank decided that they didnt want their customers seeing the class of people who ride the greyhound so they are taking this transit element out of the downtown proper and exporting it to the extreme edge of downtown, where there is no service infrastructure like shops or restaurants already in place.
I think it is more about their employees....there won't be many customers coming in
It's really hard to imagine a plan worse than this.
I think JTA has it all wrong with these city bus stations anyway. Why do buses have to loop around and pull into some big bus station, wasting time and fuel, instead of just having frequent service on the road in front of the station?
There is no bus garage at Grand Central Terminal or Chicago Union Station.
more of the same... more of the same.
I never really expected more out of JTA. Urban planning and land use policies aren't their specialty (although it should be if we ever want transit to work in this city). However, I do worry about DDRB staff recommending approval of a design like this. The way the system is set up, they're supposed to be the watch dogs. Expensive crap like this only provides downtown naysayers with more ammunition about wasteful spending in the urban core. In this sense, Mayor Brown's reorganization of how things currently operate in regards to downtown is long overdue.
Aren't their specialty or more accurately aren't something they care about.
Leave Greyhound where it is and combine the rest of it into the skyway and convention site.
wow. looks like they got the same hack that builds the high schools to come up with the design. Jacksonville we do mediocrity right!
^That's the same thing I thought. It looks like some of the cheap classroom buildings one would find at a newer public school. Worst of all, there appears to be little to no thought about how the design impacts or fits into the surrounding area. I seriously can't believe that in the 21st century, we're still allowing people to build solid walls along main streets and at street corners.
is there anything that we can do force them to reconsider ?
Occupy JRTC ? :)
^I doubt it. One of the downsides of the JTA as an independent agency is there's little that can stop them when they've put their minds to something.
can city not revoke permit or something like that.
The DDRB is supposed to prevent crap like this, but obviously they don't care.
This scares me. A- The design is terriable, B- We dont have funding and dont know if we will ever have the money to complete the entire project. I have a bad feeling that the rest of the center is never going to get built and the new greyhound station is going to isolated in the middle of nowhere. This is just stupid
Quote from: stephendare on December 07, 2011, 08:09:29 AM
Quote from: simms3 on December 07, 2011, 07:02:58 AM
Waste of money. I can understand the city urgently moving the Greyhound if there were a developer trying to put up a tower on the current site, but come on we all know that will never ever happen. Might as well keep the Greyhound activity in the center of town for now, it does provide some semblance of life around it or the hot dog guy would not be there :)
Its more of the anti homeless nincompoopery, simms.
The new bank decided that they didnt want their customers seeing the class of people who ride the greyhound so they are taking this transit element out of the downtown proper and exporting it to the extreme edge of downtown, where there is no service infrastructure like shops or restaurants already in place.
The result will be the loss of a few hundred people from downtown's dwindling customer base and less of a reason to stop in Jacksonville
The same thinking is what moved Amtrak out of downtown. Imagine how many retailers would have benefited from train passengers in the LaVilla/Downtown area...
Who is actually responsible for the design and the traffic flow? Did Greyhound get to put their two cents in? One would think that the people actually involved in operating the business would know what works, what looks good and exactly what location would make the most sense.
Or, is it: "Here's the deal, take it or leave it. We don't need no stinkin' low ridership bum transportation service to our fine city, anyhow!"
Do they need a link to MJ to get the other side of the story?
I have come to expect these types of things in this city.
Greyhound is fully involved with this project. They were at the last DDRB meeting when this came up.
Quote from: Ralph W on December 07, 2011, 10:45:43 AMWho is actually responsible for the design and the traffic flow? Did Greyhound get to put their two cents in? One would think that the people actually involved in operating the business would know what works, what looks good and exactly what location would make the most sense.
Greyhound is involved and their needs are clearly indicated in what has been presented. The plan looks like a typical functional layout that could be accommodated in Anyplace, USA. What has been omitted, overlooked or completely ignored is the community's needs and what works best for the development of a downtown environment. This is where the DDRB staff, planning department or a similar city entity (Jax really needs an Urban Design Dept., imo) should step in. At this point, the entity either doesn't exist or doesn't have enough teeth to make a significant impact on the development of a pedestrian scaled built environment. This, not money, basically separates the haves from the have nots.
Quote from: duvaldude08 on December 07, 2011, 10:19:11 AM
This scares me. A- The design is terriable, B- We dont have funding and dont know if we will ever have the money to complete the entire project. I have a bad feeling that the rest of the center is never going to get built and the new greyhound station is going to isolated in the middle of nowhere. This is just stupid
Judging on the past, that's most likely were this will eventually go. It's unfortunate because of the amount of money about to be spent on something we full well know continues to have significant question marks.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 07, 2011, 11:45:25 AM
Quote from: Ralph W on December 07, 2011, 10:45:43 AMWho is actually responsible for the design and the traffic flow? Did Greyhound get to put their two cents in? One would think that the people actually involved in operating the business would know what works, what looks good and exactly what location would make the most sense.
Greyhound is involved and their needs are clearly indicated in what has been presented. The plan looks like a typical functional layout that could be accommodated in Anyplace, USA. What has been omitted, overlooked or completely ignored is the community's needs and what works best for the development of a downtown environment. This is where the DDRB staff, planning department or a similar city entity (Jax really needs an Urban Design Dept., imo) should step in. At this point, the entity either doesn't exist or doesn't have enough teeth to make a significant impact on the development of a pedestrian scaled built environment. This, not money, basically separates the haves from the have nots.
I wouldn't get your hopes up on a DDA or similar department coming back anytime soon. Brown's reorganization plan looks like it's really getting punted away the council.
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-12-06/story/mayor-alvin-browns-reorganization-bill-bogged-down-3-committees
or maybe they just really do not care.
I think we all knew the reorganization plan wasn't going to breeze through council. However, I don't think a full blown DDA is necessary. We need some people, competent in urban design principles, in positions to have greater influence on the final design and approval of all projects being permitted in the city. Whatever the goal is for downtown, who ever is approving these things needs to know that and make sure that all projects, big & small, align with those goes at a pedestrian scale level.
Wasteful, bland, too spread out. Why are they building it like that. Is it a CENTER or a COMPLEX?
Why does ever new building design in Jacksonville look like it belongs in Cape Coral?
(That's not a compliment).
I don't see the point of moving the bus terminal there until the Amtrak trains stop there. The architecture of the current bus station looks better and it is across from a skyway stop already!!
IDIOTS! There is simply no other word in the English language that describes the fool who is at the root of this, the latest JTA Catastrophe in the making.
READ MY LIPS!
THE DAY THAT THE FIRST SHOVEL OF DIRT IS TURNED AT THIS GREYHOUND SITE - IS THE DAY THAT ANY HOPE OF JACKSONVILLE HAVING A REAL TRANSPORTATON CENTER DIES. The reason being:
JTA, an organization that builds highways and barely understands mass transit, cannot define a 'regional transportation center.'
JTA'S lead planner apparently has never bothered to notice that no other 'Regional Transportation Center' operates out of 4 independent stations in neighborhood of 5 massive, distinct, and uninspired buildings, scattered over more real estate then the Vatican City, a sovereign nation.
The City Council, and the local mullet wrapper, have been duped in a game of dumb and dumber. Like a bunch of parrots chewing coca leaves, the JTA proclaims it, the council rubber stamps it, and the media outlets soil themselves in a frenzy of volcanic, urgent conceit.
Back in the 1970's, I recall a family that lived in the area that I would meet and greet occasionally. The tragic reality of their situation was obvious when one would spot them guiding their '30 something' son through a local grocery store. Their adult child would be decked out in his 'cowboy' costume, complete with toy guns, alternately smiling and shooting at anyone who made eye contact. In the mind of this severely handicapped man, he was a 'real' cowboy and he was saving us from unseen bloodletters and badmen. Such has JTA become, a tragic, rogue agency, leading us into another real world gunfight, dressed up as a mass transit agency. JTA is as clueless about what works, or even identifying what a solution should look like, then that poor cowboy. All the while they are giving 'expert' advice and guidance to a equally uninformed city council.
Deliberate? One will have to consider the ill advised Skyway, that '5 mile system' (which never got to 5 miles) the one JTA claimed would eventually extend high speed monorail train service from the Atlantic to Baldwin, and from Thomas's Creek to Orange Park. Remember the promises? That little train would be the end of streetcars in America, and Jacksonville's own JTA would blaze the trail and show the way.
How about the merits of building a 26 mile elevated freeway for buses, right over the top of existing roads and railroads, a vision for ELEVATED BRT. They imagined their BRT scheme as the transportation of the future, and that it would prove the superiority of buses over rail, once and for all. JTA told us we really needed this system
at the bargin price of a billion dollars! Even then, it wouldn't reach the Avenues, Town Center, Orange Park, The Beaches or anywhere north of the Trout River.
We should perhaps consider the inaccessible, multimillion dollar, Southside parking garage. The garage has become symbolic of the failure of JTA to grasp even the most basic concepts.
Anyone remember the Dames Point bridge, the one that every maritime interest on the high seas has condemned as too low? How is that working out for our port? JTA anyone? Recall if you will the genius at JTA arguing that the bridge could actually be even lower then it is and that marine interests should be grateful for what they've been offered.
Then there was the agency that publically proclaimed that in Charlotte, "The people hate rail, they're demanding more buses."
THESE ARE THE PEOPLE IN CONTROL OF YOUR TRANSPORTATION FUTURE.
With the first shovel of dirt, all hope of having a true and functioning Transportation Center, which is by definition, a ONE-STOP-SHOP, is gone. Fear not, city council member, the good folks over on Myrtle Avenue are wearing their 'transportation expert' costumes.
"Bang! Bang! Your dead, Jacksonville!"
OCKLAWAHA
"Like a bunch of parrots chewing coca leaves, the JTA proclaims it, the council rubber stamps it, and the media outlets soil themselves in a frenzy of volcanic, urgent conceit." That is a great line!
I could be wrong, but are you giving JTA credit for some of FDOT's work/projects?
If there's no way to stop this now, perhaps energy would be better spent trying to get the rest of the design altered to put the rest of the nodes in a compressed building.
At any rate, have they offered any justification for designing this building where and how they're doing it?
QuoteIf there's no way to stop this now, perhaps energy would be better spent trying to get the rest of the design altered to put the rest of the nodes in a compressed building.
That could be an option. However, you would end up with an isolated greyhound bus terminal two blocks north of everything else. I also wouldn't say that it can't be stopped. If the mayor's office or council wanted it stopped or the money to built it doesn't materialize, it doesn't happen.
QuoteAt any rate, have they offered any justification for designing this building where and how they're doing it?
I'd take this with a grain of salt but it was told to the Mayor's transportation transition committee that Greyhound wanted to be next to I-95 and that it would create some construction jobs. It was also mentioned that it would be too much trouble to go back and significantly modify the JRTC master plan without delaying construction of Greyhound. It kind of came off to me as making bad excuses for not doing anything. Nevertheless, even at this particular site, it still doesn't resolve the poor integration of the building's footprint into that particular downtown block.
I think the major consideration for the location was that Greyhound wanted a straight shot on and off of I-95 so that they did not have to weave around on city streets as they have to now. Can anyone confirm that?
^That was mentioned as an excuse. However, Adams only offers access to I-95, not from it. Anyway, this all goes down the tubes because every block over there pretty much gets you on I-95 without weaving through downtown streets. Shift them down to the skyway station site and the buses will have direct access to and from I-95.
This is an example of a good, well used and comprehensive transportation center, including Greyhound.
Santa Ana Regional Transportation Center.
http://www.ci.santa-ana.ca.us/sartc/
(http://www.ci.santa-ana.ca.us/sartc/)
San Diego has a nice one too, but I think this has already been discussed. I think the city consistanly figues out the most expensive, and least effective way of doing something. This effort is a prime example.
Quote from: thelakelander on December 08, 2011, 09:32:40 AM
I'd take this with a grain of salt but it was told to the Mayor's transportation transition committee that Greyhound wanted to be next to I-95 and that it would create some construction jobs. It was also mentioned that it would be too much trouble to go back and significantly modify the JRTC master plan without delaying construction of Greyhound. It kind of came off to me as making bad excuses for not doing anything. Nevertheless, even at this particular site, it still doesn't resolve the poor integration of the building's footprint into that particular downtown block.
I've even heard it stated that Greyhound specifically wanted to be bewteen Houston and Adams...thus the reason why it couldn't be moved to the block between Forsyth and Houston....even though the dimensions are similar and access to/from I-95 is equivalent.
Surprised no one picked up on this. Many accolades from the DDRB on the design of the Greyhound Station, not so much for the 7-11 store.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2011-12-09
I must say, I'm not surprised by either after reading the DDRB staff report beforehand. I'm also troubled by this comment:
QuoteBefore the board approved the design other than the stamped concrete element, board Chair Andy Sikes commented on the final product.
“As an urban planner, I think this is a wonderful addition to Downtown. Based on the presentation, it looks like you’re driving by an arboretum, not a bus station,†he said.
As an urban planner, I don't view a bus station as a bad thing. I'm actually fine with the existing one being where it is because it adds a little life to an otherwise depressing scene. Nevertheless, we shouldn't be designing buildings in downtown to look like arboretums while driving by at 45 mph. You don't reach vibrancy by creating more blocks designed for no pedestrian activity. More care and consideration needs to be given to how our buildings, new and existing, integrate with the street and sidewalks at pedestrian scale.
^Ennis Davis for Jacksonville City Council: The Right Man at the Right Time.
well oddly enough Andy Sikes (urban planner) is not a member of the American Planning Association
Quote from: fsujax on December 09, 2011, 03:27:46 PM
Surprised no one picked up on this. Many accolades from the DDRB on the design of the Greyhound Station, not so much for the 7-11 store.
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/downtowntoday.php?dt_date=2011-12-09
it's unfortunate that DDRB thinks the bus station is good...everyone involved should be less than enthusiastic with the design
So...the new Greyhound station will be left "hanging," all alone, naked, out to fend for itself with visitors and others waiting to transfer to other buses in our great city, looking at empty lots, no restaurants, stores, etc. nearby, and not to mention they will be given a completely negative image of Jacksonville. Yeah JTA buses and the Skyway will be available if they want to ride into downtown to view our empty city streets, office buildings and streets with absolutely NOTHING TO DO. Great plans for the bus station and the entire development JTA...as usual, you have dropped the ball without even spending any money for construction and very little for planning of this facility!
Heights Unknown
Is it within DDRB's authority to question the location of the bus station in DT, or just the architectural style and site plan?
I believe just the architectural style and site plan.
Quote from: dougskiles on December 10, 2011, 06:20:44 AM
Is it within DDRB's authority to question the location of the bus station in DT, or just the architectural style and site plan?
sadly this is a done deal....the only thing holding it back is $5 million
At the very least I was wishful that the DDRB would make sure it had a functional streetedge. Considering that this was approved with flying colors, I truly believe DT will seriously struggle until there is a mental change regarding the importance of pedestrian scale environment, no matter what the use is. No amount of money thrown into a one trick pony development project will overcome the bad impact of poor pedestrian scale planning.
Quote from: JaxNative68 on December 08, 2011, 06:30:10 AM
"Like a bunch of parrots chewing coca leaves, the JTA proclaims it, the council rubber stamps it, and the media outlets soil themselves in a frenzy of volcanic, urgent conceit." That is a great line!
I could be wrong, but are you giving JTA credit for some of FDOT's work/projects?
No doubt that FDOT is up to their arm pits in this quagmire.
It really makes no difference that these irresponsible goofs have convinced the local media to kiss their asses and salute, this station is not the first phase of a 'Regional Transportation Center.' Call it what you will, but it is, and will be, an isolated bus station neither connected to the city nor to the other transportation modes in town. Consider when this station breaks ground, JTA, FDOT, GREYHOUND, et al, have just started the first and LAST segment of another Skyway.
Amazing that there are those within our city that still refer to Colombia as the 3Rd World! With each passing day I'm feeling the call of that Condor...
LAKE, TUFSU, FSUJAX, I think we could have some fun in Medellin!
OCKLAWAHA
Ock, Last night there was a program called MusicVoyager on PBS World. The host was visiting Bogota and interviewed the famous Colombian musician, Fonseca. Bogota made NYC look sleepy. At one point, Fonseca and the host took the funicular to the top of the mountain just outside the city for a panoramic view. Just spectacular.
Made me want to call the airlines and book tickets.
It seems to me no one at JTA or anyone at city hall has ever been to a real multi- transportation hub. As a kid I got the concept immediately, connectivity is the key. What's the use in spreading four or five buildings over an entire area. And the building design, they can't shake the suburb strip center mentality.
Let's all make a pact, Anyone in city council that supports the construction of this monstrosity, we should see to it that we campaign enough to get them voted out of office. This would be an irreversible disaster for the next 30 to 40 years, much too costly for them to be allowed to stay in council. And to those here on MJ that talked about running for council yourselves, Please do, you already have my vote!
Quote from: tufsu1 on December 10, 2011, 03:00:00 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on December 10, 2011, 06:20:44 AM
Is it within DDRB's authority to question the location of the bus station in DT, or just the architectural style and site plan?
sadly this is a done deal....the only thing holding it back is $5 million
Yeah and guess where they'll get it? I'll bet they'll renege on the $5 mil tax incentive for the Laura st Trio so they can give it to this awful project!
Quote from: urbaknight on December 14, 2011, 12:03:58 PM
Let's all make a pact, Anyone in city council that supports the construction of this monstrosity, we should see to it that we campaign enough to get them voted out of office. This would be an irreversible disaster for the next 30 to 40 years, much too costly for them to be allowed to stay in council. And to those here on MJ that talked about running for council yourselves, Please do, you already have my vote!
+1
This design brings underwhelming to a new level.
Anyone wanna bet that Greyhounds corporate executives don't have a clue that this argument is going on? FDOT/JTA in a joint effort to screw the pooch, have misled these guys into believing they'll be the northern anchor of a wonderful 'functional' transportation center. If the rest of this terminal mess is never built (and the good money is betting it will never be completed or functional) one has to wonder who is on the hook for the libel lawsuits?
Bottom line, Greyhound is being led around like they had a ring in their nose by what just might be the greatest body of transit ignorance in the entire industry. City hall is being duped like a hutch full of rabbits facing down a cobra. There is absolutely no good reason to make this mistake happen, and those who argue that it will be another jewel in Jacksonville's crown I'd tell you your right, just like the Skyway, which through incompetence they have allowed to virtually die without completing a single line of the system they 'sold' the public. The Southside Parking garage which isn't accessable to inbound commuters until they are at the exit off the Main Street Bridge nearly downtown, another jewel. A bumbled BRT system plan of 23 miles and a BILLION dollars, that they are still correctly claiming will be 'Just Like Rail, Only CHEAPER!'. City Hall's contribution to this symphony is idiocy is found in a moratorium on a truly innovative Mobility Plan, and the likelyhood that they'll give JTA the $5 Million to kick off the abomination called the JRTC.
Quote"A recent definition of Intermodal Transportation Centers equates it this way, 'The movement of people involving more then one mode of transportation during a single, seamless journey."
QUOTE FROM: a study to define the term 'intermodal transportation center' by Mississippi State University. Believe me, the JRTC as currently designed with Greyhound anchoring the upper most reaches - virtually mandating that the 'filler pieces' be built to vaguely connect the various bus stations with Amtrak, will be in no way seamless. Bay Street, Houston Street, etc., 5 massive buildings, a 6+ block walk on a series of up and down overhead concourses, will all combine to make this the worst example of what the JRTC purports to be in all of the Americas.
CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS, FOR GODS SAKE DO YOUR HOMEWORK AND STOP THIS MOBILITY SUCICIDE SCHEME.
OCKLAWAHA
Btw, while combing the St. Johns River Water Management District permitting applications online, I noticed JTA submitted an application for the bus terminal on 12/8/11.
I saw the JTA show, Making Moves last night. Micheal Blaylock was selling the greyhound terminal like it will be the greatest thing to come. And they also mentioned several awards they won for excellence, including an award for the Riverside Trolley Facebook page, There isn't even a Riverside Trolley anymore! Who the hell are they fooling with their propaganda? It's really scary that they have the ability to pull the wool over the eyes of many people. But we here know the truth!
You can check out the show Making Moves on JTA's website on jtafla.com
I'm heavily campaigning to get top brass of JTA fired. I'm going as far as telling everybody on the buses I ride to demand the same thing. Even some drivers agree with me.
If anyone here on MJ can help me with the process of doing petitions or whatever I must do, I beg for any advice or direction to make this a reality.
The Riverside Trolley doesn't operate anymore? I thought they had cut it back to the original route and service?
Quote from: urbaknight on January 06, 2012, 01:54:27 PM
I saw the JTA show, Making Moves last night. Micheal Blaylock was selling the greyhound terminal like it will be the greatest thing to come. And they also mentioned several awards they won for excellence, including an award for the Riverside Trolley Facebook page, There isn't even a Riverside Trolley anymore! Who the hell are they fooling with their propaganda? It's really scary that they have the ability to pull the wool over the eyes of many people. But we here know the truth!
You can check out the show Making Moves on JTA's website on jtafla.com
I'm heavily campaigning to get top brass of JTA fired. I'm going as far as telling everybody on the buses I ride to demand the same thing. Even some drivers agree with me.
If anyone here on MJ can help me with the process of doing petitions or whatever I must do, I beg for any advice or direction to make this a reality.
I agree. I was just on the phone with my mom actually talking about how incompetent and ass-backwards JTA is. I fed up with it. Did you see the chaos at the library yesterday? These people caught two and three buses to get their new Star card, and you turned them away because you system crashes because " we only expected 500 people and 1,500 showed up." And told them to come back tomorrow.?? They are completely DUMB. They should have expected the unexpected. People in this rely heavily on public transportation. I could not imagine having to spend hours on the bus, and be told to go back home and do it all again the next day. Ive had it with them! The city has to speak up.
Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
The Riverside Trolley doesn't operate anymore? I thought they had cut it back to the original route and service?
it still operates....it got cut back to its original route but service uis still offered most of the day (where as originally it was only from 11-2)
Actually it should be renamed to the '5-points/Courthouse Clusterfuck Trolley (with Laura St Detour)'. Long name. Amazing results.
Quote from: tufsu1 on January 06, 2012, 02:22:42 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on January 06, 2012, 02:08:41 PM
The Riverside Trolley doesn't operate anymore? I thought they had cut it back to the original route and service?
it still operates....it got cut back to its original route but service uis still offered most of the day (where as originally it was only from 11-2)
Here are the hours from the award winning facebook page.
Hours of operation
Mondayâ€"Friday: 4:30 a.m.â€"7:22 p.m.
Saturday: 8 a.m.â€"8:12 p.m.
Sunday: Not in service
Quote from: urbaknight on January 06, 2012, 01:54:27 PM
I saw the JTA show, Making Moves last night. Micheal Blaylock was selling the greyhound terminal like it will be the greatest thing to come. And they also mentioned several awards they won for excellence, including an award for the Riverside Trolley Facebook page, There isn't even a Riverside Trolley anymore! Who the hell are they fooling with their propaganda? It's really scary that they have the ability to pull the wool over the eyes of many people. But we here know the truth!
If anyone here on MJ can help me with the process of doing petitions or whatever I must do, I beg for any advice or direction to make this a reality.
1. Some time ago I did a little check on this 'award winning' bunch... You should try it, it is a real knee slapper. Here is how it works. STEP ONE: Appoint someone director, officer, etc. at JTA. STEP TWO: Put them on stage at one of the city's many award events (You know the type, nicest mailman, best lawn, most likely to serve 5 to 10 at Raiford, etc.) and you give them an award. BINGO! A REAL AWARD WINNING INSTITUTION.
2. I'm thinking we need an article on this and within the article a ready to print letter to both City Council and to the Federal Transit Administration. These letters should make it clear that:
The Jacksonville Terminal built in 1919 regularly handled 41,095 people a day or 15 Million per year
The original station is expected to be abandoned by the convention people.
JTA believes we need this, and 3 other 'stations,' covering as much ground as the Vatican to handle less then half of that many passengers.
By stringing out 5 stations over several blocks JTA is forcing intercity and intracity passengers into a long torturous walk in order to connect between modes.
That the JRTC will actually make the transfer situation in Jacksonville, the traditional surface transportation gateway to Florida, much more difficult.
With the Convention Center empty within 5-10 years, the City has an unprecedented opportunity to reinvigorate the old terminal into a true SEAMLESS intermodal terminal.
Any approval of the current scheme is a guarantees that Jacksonville will not have a true intermodal terminal, regardless of what they are calling this project, for decades to come.
Stop this plan.
Locally failure to stop this plan will result in citizen action to demand removal of any approving politician from office.
Then if you wish, add
'LOVE OCK'
Quote from: Ocklawaha on January 06, 2012, 04:09:50 PM
Quote from: urbaknight on January 06, 2012, 01:54:27 PM
I saw the JTA show, Making Moves last night. Micheal Blaylock was selling the greyhound terminal like it will be the greatest thing to come. And they also mentioned several awards they won for excellence, including an award for the Riverside Trolley Facebook page, There isn't even a Riverside Trolley anymore! Who the hell are they fooling with their propaganda? It's really scary that they have the ability to pull the wool over the eyes of many people. But we here know the truth!
If anyone here on MJ can help me with the process of doing petitions or whatever I must do, I beg for any advice or direction to make this a reality.
1. Some time ago I did a little check on this 'award winning' bunch... You should try it, it is a real knee slapper. Here is how it works. STEP ONE: Appoint someone director, officer, etc. at JTA. STEP TWO: Put them on stage at one of the city's many award events (You know the type, nicest mailman, best lawn, most likely to serve 5 to 10 at Raiford, etc.) and you give them an award. BINGO! A REAL AWARD WINNING INSTITUTION.
2. I'm thinking we need an article on this and within the article a ready to print letter to both City Council and to the Federal Transit Administration. These letters should make it clear that:
The Jacksonville Terminal built in 1919 regularly handled 41,095 people a day or 15 Million per year
The original station is expected to be abandoned by the convention people.
JTA believes we need this, and 3 other 'stations,' covering as much ground as the Vatican to handle less then half of that many passengers.
By stringing out 5 stations over several blocks JTA is forcing intercity and intracity passengers into a long torturous walk in order to connect between modes.
That the JRTC will actually make the transfer situation in Jacksonville, the traditional surface transportation gateway to Florida, much more difficult.
With the Convention Center empty within 5-10 years, the City has an unprecedented opportunity to reinvigorate the old terminal into a true SEAMLESS intermodal terminal.
Any approval of the current scheme is a guarantees that Jacksonville will not have a true intermodal terminal, regardless of what they are calling this project, for decades to come.
Stop this plan.
Locally failure to stop this plan will result in citizen action to demand removal of any approving politician from office.
Then if you wish, add
'LOVE OCK'
Love it OCK! You the man!
Would it be safe to say that no one in the decision making process, no one in the planning process and no one in the operations process has actually used any of the transportation modes they are now espousing? This would appear to hold true not only for the local and state powers that be but also the good folks over at Greyhound and at Amtrac.
Taking your car to work, parking in close in reserved parking garages or being chaufered to and from your destinations apparently gives crystal ball insight into exactly how an intermodal system functions.
I have recommended each and every person involved be required to spend a week walking the routes it would take to implement tghe current plans. This includes our esteemed public officials as well as all the cloistered head honchos you can find.
Quote from: Ralph W on January 06, 2012, 08:12:08 PM
Would it be safe to say that no one in the decision making process, no one in the planning process and no one in the operations process has actually used any of the transportation modes they are now espousing? This would appear to hold true not only for the local and state powers that be but also the good folks over at Greyhound and at Amtrac.
nope...that would not be safe to say...
the prioblem often is that JTA (and other entities) get an idea in their head, go down that path, and then believe it is difficult if not impossible to reverse course.....this is the case with the greyhound terminal.
1. Some time ago I did a little check on this 'award winning' bunch... You should try it, it is a real knee slapper. Here is how it works. STEP ONE: Appoint someone director, officer, etc. at JTA. STEP TWO: Put them on stage at one of the city's many award events (You know the type, nicest mailman, best lawn, most likely to serve 5 to 10 at Raiford, etc.) and you give them an award. BINGO! A REAL AWARD WINNING INSTITUTION.
2. I'm thinking we need an article on this and within the article a ready to print letter to both City Council and to the Federal Transit Administration. These letters should make it clear that:
The Jacksonville Terminal built in 1919 regularly handled 41,095 people a day or 15 Million per year
The original station is expected to be abandoned by the convention people.
JTA believes we need this, and 3 other 'stations,' covering as much ground as the Vatican to handle less then half of that many passengers.
By stringing out 5 stations over several blocks JTA is forcing intercity and intracity passengers into a long torturous walk in order to connect between modes.
That the JRTC will actually make the transfer situation in Jacksonville, the traditional surface transportation gateway to Florida, much more difficult.
With the Convention Center empty within 5-10 years, the City has an unprecedented opportunity to reinvigorate the old terminal into a true SEAMLESS intermodal terminal.
Any approval of the current scheme is a guarantees that Jacksonville will not have a true intermodal terminal, regardless of what they are calling this project, for decades to come.
Stop this plan.
Locally failure to stop this plan will result in citizen action to demand removal of any approving politician from office.
Then if you wish, add
'LOVE OCK'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++very well stated.
why why why
how how how can any true Regional Transit Center extend north of the SKYWAY station???
a parking garage (which i know many may say we should not need) could be built in the parking lot on the west side of the original Jacksonville Terminal with GREYHOUND operations on the first two levels.
max of 4 levels perhaps, 5 maybe if it would not visually compete with the grandeur of the beautiful original.
[/quote]
It could. The problem is the convention center is still there and it appears no one is willing to take a step back and resolve this convention center issue before moving forward with components of the spread out JRTC plan.
If we raise enough questions in minds of the FTA, we might have a shot at killing this, forcing a rethink. I'm willing to go a few more years without then to have another nationally internationally spotlighted fail.
Among the academia and transportation people of South America, those few who know where Jacksonville is, mention the name 'SKYWAY EXPRESS,' and the laughing begins. Play it again JTA...
OCKLAWAHA
JTA intends to break ground on their Greyhound bus terminal in LaVilla this August. JTA will use federal money to build it and Greyhound will lease space in it for 40 years. When complete, the existing Greyhound station will be closed and listed for sale.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1619759762_5mKPPW8-M.jpg)
full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2013-04-29/story/jta-plans-summer-ground-breaking-new-greyhound-bus-terminal
Is the TU map wrong, or has the new Greyhound station moved a couple blocks to the east?
Cool, they are building the piece that is furthest from the Jax Terminal first, thereby ensuring the JRTC will take up an incredibly large footprint, even if JTA realizes the folly of their ways in the future.
^That's the highly unfortunate part. Bad urban design, worst location. Considering it will probably be years before the rest of this spread out complex can find funding, the new bus station will be just as isolated as one can get. It will suck if you're stuck there for a few hours on a layover. At the old site, you at least had the option of walking to businesses and restaurants in the heart of downtown.
Quote from: Charles Hunter on April 29, 2013, 04:35:54 PM
Is the TU map wrong, or has the new Greyhound station moved a couple blocks to the east?
TU map is wrong. The station is still in the same proposed location.
This is reminiscent of that horrible train station debacle. In fact that dreary little suburban building reminds me of the train station.
A revised Greyhound terminal plan is now moving forward:
QuoteThe building is a bit smaller — 7,700 square feet down to 9,750 square feet — and has been shifted a little southwest from its original location. Now, the building will be on a block bordered by Forsyth Street to the south, adjacent to the Skyway's Convention Center Station.
Eventually, the terminal will also house other bus companies, like Megabus, a low-fare intercity bus service which already stops at the Convention Center Station.
A combination of state and federal money are paying for the terminal, which was originally slated to cost about $6 million but, with the delay, will now likely cost between $7-8 million, Thoburn said.
The project will have to undergo some redesign and rebid for construction, which could start sometime near the end of 2016.
Greyhound is expected to occupy the building near the end of 2017 or early 2018.
The move will allow Greyhound to vacate its current downtown building — valued at $2.1 million, according to Property Appraiser records — and sell it. A company spokeswoman said Greyhound does plan to sell the building, though it doesn't yet have a date when it will go on the market.
Full article: http://jacksonville.com/news/2015-08-26/story/future-greyhound-terminal-near-convention-center-back-track
We can all be thankful the original development plan wasn't built as intended 5 blocks away from the transportation center!
http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548521 (http://www.jaxdailyrecord.com/showstory.php?Story_id=548521)
Take a look at Downtown's new Greyhound station
"If you don't see the sign on the building depicting a sleek, silver racing dog in full stride, you might not immediately identify the structure as a Greyhound bus station.
That's the concept for Greyhound Lines Inc.'s new intercity bus terminal that will replace its decades-old station at Bay and Pearl streets.
"They'll have elements with their brand. You'll recognize it's Greyhound," said Brad Thoburn, Jacksonville Transportation Authority vice president of long-range planning and system development.
The new building is the first phase of the authority's $33 million Regional Transportation Center that's scheduled to be in operation in 2019.
The new station's architecture will mirror the design chosen for the entire transportation complex and it's scheduled to be considered for conceptual review Oct. 20 by the Downtown Development Review Board.
That's not what happened in Nashville in 2011 when Greyhound built a new station in the SoBro mixed-use district adjacent to that city's urban core.
Even after the building was under construction, Greyhound officials declined to comment on its appearance other than to say, in part, "Having a standard design allows our locations to be easily recognizable for our passengers," according to an article published by The CityPaper, a Nashville news website.
That's not how it works in Jacksonville.
Thoburn said JTA and Greyhound have been working together for some time to develop their new terminal as part of the transportation center complex that will combine long-distance bus transportation, JTA's fixed-route, bus rapid transit and Skyway systems as well as administrative offices for the authority.
In fact, the location of the Greyhound station within the overall transportation center design was changed about 18 months ago to better fit with future development of LaVilla, he said.
Thoburn said submitting the design to the review board is "an important part of the process."
The review board conducted a workshop Oct. 4 for the architects and engineers selected by JTA to design the transportation complex.
That should help ensure the conceptual design is approved next week, which would allow final approval in November, which will include review of building materials, colors and signage.
Final approval by the board is required before the city will issue building permits for the project.
Thoburn said construction of the Greyhound facility should take about 12 months. The second phase — JTA's facilities — is scheduled to begin construction next fall and should be complete in September 2019."