Beach & Hodges: A Disaster of Jacksonville's Making
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1545108774_vwhqpvQ-M.jpg)
According to a report from Transportation for America, from 2000 through 2009, 342 pedestrians were killed in Jacksonville, making the area the third worst in the country for walkers - and Jacksonville has no one to blame but itself. Poorly-designed new centers of commercial activity like the ones at the intersection of Beach and Hodges are a prime example of what plagues Jacksonville.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-nov-beach-hodges-a-disaster-of-jacksonvilles-making
very nice article. I happen to live very close to the corner of Hodges and Beach. We hate this area and can't wait to get out and maybe look toward Riverside. One of the big problems is the area is designed to get traffic moving through/ and not slow down the traffic. Cars usually drive 50-60 mps along both Hodges and Beach in this area. I have lived in enough places to say this is one of the most auto centric areas I have ever lived.
Our team just sold the Edgewood Retail District off market to a Canadian Pension Fund for close to $100M (excluding the Lowe's)! It's laid out well and has nice designs, some apartments and lofts surround it and a MARTA station is a block away, but it is no "denser" than anything else. I mean the parking ratio is less than in Jacksonville because people can walk up or ride MARTA, but it isn't decked parking.
Also, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown. As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.
Kimco is pulling out of Jacksonville and other markets that don't check all of their boxes; mainly they wish to stay in top 20 MSA's and progressive smaller MSA's like Orlando, Austin, and Charlotte which act like secondary markets.
One problem is that nobody in Jacksonville would know what to do if a parking garage were attached to a Target or Dick's or Publix. Somewhat interesting story, many intown ATL grocers and big boxes are in dense multi-floor centers with a parking garage in the middle, so people here are used to it. In fact there are two Publixes I go to and each has a parking garage either underground or in the middle, and the Target I go to has parking underneath, and the Walmart I go to has parking underneath. However, we are selling a Sembler development called the Prado, which is shadow-anchored by Target and anchored by Staples, Lifetime Fitness, and Publix, and it has a 4 floor parking garage. Unfortunately the Publix is not directly connected to the garage, so shoppers risk being out in the elements. Well, as one can imagine, its sales are considered dismal for such a nice center where retail rents push $50/SF for some of the shops.
In Jacksonville, the first developer who puts up an "infill" type of retail development will see pushback from the community. People will not know how to respond. People do not know what to do with garages put in front of them. Where do you park? How do you enter the store? How could it possibly be as convenient as "parking in front?" "We aren't New York." Etc.
The infill is going to have to occur closer intown. Conservative family types closer to the ICW and beach are not going to go for decked parking. It would freak them out. People in San Marco, Riverside, and Springfield would easily go for it.
QuoteAlso, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown. As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.
Strip malls are by nature predatory. More often times than not they are not satisfying pentup demand, but instead preying on the demand of nearby shopping centers.
Forgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing, also did Edgewood Retail District. It also did Town Brookhaven up here (featuring rental mid-rises on top...tweener location though), Lenox Marketplace (which sold for close to $300/SF if I remember correctly and on one city block squeezes a Filene's Basement soon to shutter, a Target, Publix, Staples, Dick's, Urban Active Fitness, and shops), the Prado, and others.
Check out their website for pictures and layouts of their centers to see the differences.
What we are currently selling (very outdated, has a 4 floor addition on the far end, located right at 285 in the suburbs): http://www.sembler.com/pdfs/Prado.pdf
town Brookhaven (very tweener location northeast of Buckhead, but their largest development to date): http://www.sembler.com/pdfs/Town%20Brookhaven.pdf
Site plan for Lenox Marketplace (now owned by Edens & Avant...4 floors, 415,000SF): http://www.edensandavant.com/oc_center_siteplan.asp?cid=965
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code? He has a great opportunity in front of him. I hope he makes the most if it.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 11, 2011, 07:43:59 AM
QuoteAlso, interestingly enough, Edgewood Retail District, Atlantic Station (decked below, shopping above), District at Howell Mill (decked below), Lindbergh Plaza (decked below), and Midtown Place all "steal" opportunities for many of these same stores to expand right in Midtown. As a result, there are all of these nice, dense shopping centers 1-3 miles out with abundant free parking, and a hole in Midtown.
Strip malls are by nature predatory. More often times than not they are not satisfying pentup demand, but instead preying on the demand of nearby shopping centers.
Maybe in Jacksonville that is true. In the perimeter of Atlanta there is not much land available to be developed and it is expensive. Anything going up is to satisfy demand, but right now the city is in a transitional awkward phase between a sprawl city and between an urban city. Retailers that want 6 parking spaces per 1,000 SF of rentable area in Jacksonville may only need 3.5 spaces or less up here, but they still want to go in "retail" developments with other anchors and they still want a certain parking ratio. Nobody has thought to put up a flat "retail" development like Lenox Marketplace in Midtown with parking above.
See this development in Downtown Crossing in Boston. Just sold for $128M:
(http://i916.photobucket.com/albums/ad1/jsimms3/35020Washington.jpg)
This is the next step up here, I believe. Someone just has to do it.
Parking garages are really expensive. $15K-$25K/space to construct. Land has to be prohibitively expensive and density has to be there for garages to work. This is a ways off in Jacksonville, but will happen first if we densify the intown areas. Sembler did Riverside Marketplace with that Publix there. That same site is large enough for 2-3 anchors and some shop space. Too bad the density wasn't there yet. You could probably fit 300,000 SF of retail on that block and provide 4.5 spaces per 1,000 SF on average (restaurants need 8-10 spaces per 1,000 SF).
Quote from: dougskiles on November 11, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code? He has a great opportunity in front of him. I hope he makes the most if it.
I do not....but his main expertise is in transportation...of note here is that he was removed as MPO director about 10 years ago (not sure why).
QuoteForgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing, also did Edgewood Retail District.
And that is the crux of the issue.
The same developer that created the sprawling St Johns Town Center is also creating a high density mixed use shopping center in Buckhead.
There is no incentive at the moment to create high density mixed-use developments in Jacksonville. The zoning codes don't require it, and frankly it's way cheaper to build something like Pablo Plaza than it is to build Edgewood. So, if zoning codes give you the incentive to build it this way... why do it differently?
You can't fault the developer for building the way the city is allowing you to do so..
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2011, 08:05:13 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on November 11, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code? He has a great opportunity in front of him. I hope he makes the most if it.
I do not....but his main expertise is in transportation...of note here is that he was removed as MPO director about 10 years ago (not sure why).
I'm not certain of all of the details, as I was a very new planner at COJ at the time he was leaving, but can say that at this time the MPO was part of the COJ Transportation Planning Division, which was part of the Planning and Development Department. It is my understanding that he and the planning director had some significant clashes.
QuoteMaybe in Jacksonville that is true.
That's true in most places.
You don't really think that three WalMarts are needed within 8 miles of each other do you?
It makes sense for a retailer b/c depending on population characteristics of a certain area, you can segment out a given population center thereby driving up revenue per square foot by increasing shopping trips. B/c your economies of scale are now greater, your profit per square foot increases. That doesn't always work though.
There is a reason Starbucks, Rite Aid, Gap, Office Depot and many many others closed a ton of stores in the last few years.
You're talking to someone who sells large shopping centers for a living. Starbucks is back to expansion mode, btw. Your getting into complexities here. Gap won't put a store in a power center. Office Depot won't go into a regional/super-regional center. Rite Aid has a failing business model and can't compete with Caremark. You're comparing apples to oranges.
Also increasing shopping trips drives down retailer revenue. Small shops *have* to be near a grocery anchor. Staples *will not* be in a center by itself. Only Walmart, Lowe's, Home Depot, Target, Sears, and Kohl's will dare to own and develop their own stores, but they all really like to be near each other. Notice? Near me the reason why Best Buy has not come to Midtown is because Sembler and other developers were able to put up a multi-anchor center just a couple miles away. In Midtown there are only a couple lone spaces for an urban format of a big box, and they will be all alone. Atlantic Station was able to pull in department and upper scale mall stores because they all went in together, thus killing the potential for them to come to Midtown, too.
The reason a pension fund paid a premium for Edgewood Retail District is because store sales are high and lease terms are long and filled by A credit or better tenants. Why are they high? Abundant, free parking. A draw of 200,000 people within a couple miles. Convenient access to both MARTA and the interstate. And one-stop shopping that reduces trips...the anchors are Lowe's, Target, Kroger, Best Buy, Barnes & Noble, Ross Dress, Marshalls, and on and on and on. Little 5 Points and the Highlands neighborhoods are a walk away, it's all about convenience to the shopper, not increasing trips.
On a very simple level, every retailer has a certain radius pull. Let's say Walmart's is 8 miles. Well what if there are 300,000 people in a 10x10 mile area, and it is solidly middle class. You can bet your bottom dollar Walmart would like to have at least 3 stores in there and maybe a Neighborhood Market to carry the brand name further within that area. Doesn't mean they necessarily can put 3 stores in there, but if they could...
The problem retailers faced was easy credit and too many people living on credit, so their site selection departments carried over the 3 million person metro formula to the 1 million person metros, etc.
Value is also back in vogue. The dollar stores, the TJ Maxxes, the Marshalls, the Rosses, etc are all doing really really well. The Jos. A Banks, same. In today's climate they can litter areas with stores and do alright because that is where people are shopping.
Quote from: riverside planner on November 11, 2011, 08:08:52 AM
I'm not certain of all of the details, as I was a very new planner at COJ at the time he was leaving, but can say that at this time the MPO was part of the COJ Transportation Planning Division, which was part of the Planning and Development Department. It is my understanding that he and the planning director had some significant clashes.
Is it Jeannie Fewell that you are referring to?
Simms, you may want to be in the business longer than 6 months before lecturing me.
QuoteYour getting into complexities here.
No, I'm not. Atlanta is not a panacea for everything relating to commercial properties. I do significant business in all areas of the country. Jacksonville's current development model exists today b/c they are allowed to. Plain and simple. If you are allowed to build to the cheapest auto-centric method available, you will. The same people that develop in Atlanta, Chicago, NYC, LA, San Francisco, Charlotte, etc also develop here. There is a reason they develop different properties there than they do here.
Case in point, 7-11 is coming back into this market. They were chased off from a urban walk up store model that exists in several cities across the US... and guess who capitalized on it? The same sprawling developer you all love to hate.
Quote from: dougskiles on November 11, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code? He has a great opportunity in front of him. I hope he makes the most if it.
I don't think he's against them. He was one of the few on the transportation transition team who mentioned transportation and land use policies should be better integrated, especially in the downtown and urban core areas.
Quote from: fieldafm on November 11, 2011, 08:07:09 AM
QuoteForgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing, also did Edgewood Retail District.
There is no incentive at the moment to create high density mixed-use developments in Jacksonville. The zoning codes don't require it, and frankly it's way cheaper to build something like Pablo Plaza than it is to build Edgewood. So, if zoning codes give you the incentive to build it this way... why do it differently?
You can't fault the developer for building the way the city is allowing you to do so..
Bingo! The mobility plan provided that incentive by tying the mobility fee into the equation with land use policies. Unfortunately, the moratorium took that incentive away.
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Jacksonville is a mess. When property is readily available, and cheap, there is no reason for infill, and maximum use of land. Large acrage of parking lots, miles away from the stores is common. I grew up in Southern Californina (very car heavy) but often pedestrian friendly. I would much rather have a well used, well lit, covered parking garage, over wide open parking. Case in point, the Avenues Mall has a parking garage on one end of the Mall. This easily grants close access to the mall, especially during bad weather. Open malls like St Johns Town Center work in areas where it does not rain, and is not too hot or too cold. Some may love it, but try getting from Target to Dick's, during the summer heat and rain. I would much rather be in South Coast Plaza, than the SJTC. Parking garages are unsafe, when few use them, they are dark, and un monitored (like many in Downtown). Our current zoning allows and encourages poor land use and development.
There is no incentive at the moment to create high density mixed-use developments in Jacksonville. The zoning codes don't require it, and frankly it's way cheaper to build something like Pablo Plaza than it is to build Edgewood.
as said before-- So, if zoning codes give you the incentive to build it this way... why do it differently?
You can't fault the developer for building the way the city is allowing you to do so..
Bingo! The mobility plan provided that incentive by tying the mobility fee into the equation with land use policies. Unfortunately, the moratorium took that incentive away.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 08:51:16 AM
Quote from: riverside planner on November 11, 2011, 08:08:52 AM
I'm not certain of all of the details, as I was a very new planner at COJ at the time he was leaving, but can say that at this time the MPO was part of the COJ Transportation Planning Division, which was part of the Planning and Development Department. It is my understanding that he and the planning director had some significant clashes.
Is it Jeannie Fewell that you are referring to?
Yep.
Planning seems to have lost meaning. Widening roads due to some future projection of usage has never solved the problem...only postponed it. Sidewalks and bicycle infrastructure are an after-thought. No one wants to challenge the stagnant codes that guide their construction. Engineers and so-called Planners seem to be restricted to their respective guide books (MUTP-D etc) because they can get their hands slapped if they don't. Who writes these books? How can we make them write it differently?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Everything is beyond reach. With the change at city hall, its just a colorful document with no teeth.
Quote from: Abhishek on November 11, 2011, 09:41:52 AM
Planning seems to have lost meaning. Widening roads due to some future projection of usage has never solved the problem...only postponed it. Sidewalks and bicycle infrastructure are an after-thought. No one wants to challenge the stagnant codes that guide their construction. Engineers and so-called Planners seem to be restricted to their respective guide books (MUTP-D etc) because they can get their hands slapped if they don't. Who writes these books? How can we make them write it differently?
Calvin Burney will be able to if the mayor's office and council decide it's worthwhile.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Everything is beyond reach. With the change at city hall, its just a colorful document with no teeth.
Btw, i think Beach and Hodges falls within the mobility plan's urban area. Thus, the CSS guidelines would apply if adopted by the city in some sort of fashion. However, the more important thing that needs to be addressed is a complete revamp of Jax's zoning and land use regulations, IMO.
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2011, 09:49:50 AM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Everything is beyond reach. With the change at city hall, its just a colorful document with no teeth.
come on guys. a little faith.
I have lots of hope with the new administration. I'm just being honest about the status of the Context Sensitive Streets guidelines. They have not been adopted thus they have no teeth.
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2011, 09:49:50 AM
This is the problem with term limits I think. Not enough institutional knowledge gets passed along to continue good things.
This is also the problem with letting the city be run by blue ribbon commissions, like the recent "Charter" commission, which held a bunch of meetings about the structure of the government, with little to no input from the public itself, and decided that important positions having to do with the long term management of the city should still be political appointments at the pleasure of the mayor.
How is this working out for us all in terms of the JTA, the JEA, Planning, or the vaunted JEDC?
well JTA and JEA are "independent" and thus not significantly affected by changes in elected officials
Blah blah blah *only in Jax* blah blah blah *every other city like San Diego gets it right* blah blah blah *way too many typical chain franchises* blah blah blah blah blah * SJTC is very poorly laid out* blah blah blah blah *I blame the city's admin at the time this disaster was created* blah blah blah.........
342 people dead and our City Council says let's pass the Mobility Fee Moratorium and see if we can promote more of this. I am sure none of our insider GOB developers are those pedestrians and as long as they profit who cares about the carnage.
Everyone of you Council Member sell outs voted for more of these deaths. Sleep well.
Quote from: stephendare on November 11, 2011, 10:45:34 AM
Really TUFSU? Who appoints their boards?
that would be the Mayor and Governor.....which is why I said "not significantly affected"....keep in mind that board members serve multi-year terms, which rarely coincide with elections
Good article, but it didn't say if those exemplar cities have the type of zoning codes being promoted here. Are those good developments because they are required by zoning code, or because the economics of the site make it worthwhile? Can't be because the developer is a "good guy" that does this kind of thing, else they would have done it here, despite our zoning code allowing and encouraging bad development.
I can't elaborate in detail right now but site economics don't drive good or bad development patterns. Before Miami went to Form based codes, it was full of poorly laid out high density developments. If Jax wants more quality development, the change starts with its zoning and land use policies.
Just had the pleasure of seeing Gary Hustwit's documentary "Urbanized" up here in NYC.
It profiles people making DIRECT changes within in their communities with sometime simple to execute ideas and actions. HIGHLY recommend seeing it if anyone is near a market where it's playing. This film SHOULD be screened in Jacksonville!
http://urbanizedfilm.com/trailer/
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Everything is beyond reach. With the change at city hall, its just a colorful document with no teeth.
With or without the change at city hall, the context sensitive street guidelines are limited to an area that does not include Beach & Hodges.
The mobility plan isn't the answer either. Along with a new zoning code (hopefully form based), the city needs a complete streets policy, asap.
http://www.youtube.com/v/Q1ZeXnmDZMQ?version=3&hl=en_US
^^^Just saw Urbanized here, too, and Gary Hustwit was present for a Q&A. Ellen Dunham Jones, a professor at my alma mater who wrote the book Retrofitting Suburbia had a large presence in the documentary.
Zoning codes and proper land use planning are a huge part of forcing good developments, but good developers are keen on building good developments that are beneficial to the community and that make a lasting presence. Right now the good developers are focused almost entirely on infill, solid demographics, growth, and high barriers to entry. To attract the kind of development that larger cities and Austin/Charlotte/Nashville/SLC also benefit from, Jacksonville will have to create higher barriers to entry by restricting land available for development, create huge job growth by incentivizing the right economic development appropriate for the city, and hope that Jacksonville's economic development ends up being a push for higher paying jobs to improve demographics.
Of course the biggest driver of non-manufacturing jobs is having a prominent university within the city, and unfortunately Jacksonville does not quite check that box.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 02:17:19 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2011, 09:45:01 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on November 11, 2011, 09:25:00 AM
Unfortunately Beach & Hodges is beyond the reach of the context sensitive street design guidelines - too bad.
Everything is beyond reach. With the change at city hall, its just a colorful document with no teeth.
With or without the change at city hall, the context sensitive street guidelines are limited to an area that does not include Beach & Hodges.
The mobility plan isn't the answer either. Along with a new zoning code (hopefully form based), the city needs a complete streets policy, asap.
Agree about the complete streets. Often that happens when individual areas charter community improvement districts and create master plans for their boundaries. That needs to be the first step. Having "complete streets" on every street is not feasible or necessary, but making sure certain areas look after themselves and set up corridors is very practical.
I agree. There is no single answer. Zoning modification, complete streets, context sensitive streets, mobility plan, housing downtown, port expansion , etc. all are insignificant on their own. However, this has been recognized from day one and all are planned to piggyback one another. I look forward to Mr. Burney working with the community to move several of these items forward.
Btw, to fully make c :(omplete streets policy effective in Jax, another fight needs to happen at FDOT. Passing a policy at a local level would have little to no impact on state maintained roadways like Beach, Philips, Blanding, etc. In South Florida, Miami is having a devil of a time trying to get Ped/bike improvements on Brickell and it goes right through their downtown.
With bicycles, FDOT is being very helpful these days.
Quotes from today's local business paper about the redevelopment of an old East Atlanta/Decatur shopping center that will include the Inside-the-Perimeter area's 4th Walmart.
QuoteAtlanta-based Selig Enterprises filed a parking variance request...with Dekalb County...If approved, the variance will trigger a $60 million redevelopment of Suburban Plaza, with Walmart as the main tenant...
QuoteSelig had plans to redevelop the deteriorating center six years ago...but those plans faltered when the economy sank. About 18 months ago, Walmart approached Selig about its Suburban Plaza.
QuoteThe new Walmart will sell general merchandise and groceries, but will not have a tire center nor a garden center...'We just don't have the room to do it.'
Quotethe new store will be very similar to its Chamblee location, where the parking is underneath the store
QuoteThe developer is requesting the county allow the center 1,269 spaces, or 3.9 spaces per 1,000 square feet, rather than the required...5.5 spaces per 1,000 square feet.
QuoteThe redevelopment includes demolition of about 87,000 square feet...new construction for Walmart, but then renovation of the remaining 180,000 square feet of the center
Quote'Now that we have Walmart, other retailers are interested...They include sporting goods, home goods, office supply, and electronics retailers and a health club...'
QuoteThe Suburban Plaza redevelopment comes at a time when the retailers are growing more hungry for new locations, but those new locations are few...'This is an intown market, affluent and dense...This is what retailers want right now. They are not going out to greenfield.'
Two of the three other "in the beltway" Walmarts were built within the last few years, one by Selig at the District at Howell Mill:
http://www.seligenterprises.com/dbimages/district.html
I think these quotes address very much what others and myself have said in more or less different ways in this conversation. Land needs to be limited. Developers are either good or "bad" in our sense of the term and aren't affected much by what codes are or aren't in place. Demographics and density have to be there to spur "infill" type development.
This development, along with most of the other shopping centers in Atlanta, are not on necessarily pedestrian friendly or bike friendly corridors, but there are sidewalks, covered bus stations, often nearby MARTA stations, and a much higher density. Each jurisdiction has strict codes with how the developer must redo the streetfront and allow for wider sidewalks, specific plantings, lamps, burying utilities, and either abutting the street/concealing parking or allowing for a certain "median" of landscaped land between the sidewalk and the shopping center and the street. The City of Chamblee where the 3rd Atlanta Walmart just went in has a defined master plan that requires each new development/redevelopment to register with the USGBC in LEED certification, and it is going for a specific "brick" look. It wants a uniform look that comes to define the city so that it is no longer considered a "tweener" location between the suburbs and the city.
Dallas, Houston, Charlotte, Nashville, and Orlando are doing the same thing.
Demographics may draw a use but the zoning code will still determine how well that use will intergrate into the surrounding context, regardless of density and site constraints. Jax may not be able to control its demographics but through zoning it can definitely control how whatever comes in, fits into its surroundings and Jax's adopted visioning plans.
Quote from: simms3 on November 11, 2011, 07:47:42 AM
Forgot to mention that the same developer that did Oakleaf Town Center, which is a crappy little thing,
Brannan Chaffee Sector Plan participants were .........'convinced'..............that the Vision,Vesting granted was a bold positive growth management,planning stride.
Quote from: thelakelander on November 11, 2011, 09:14:57 AM
Quote from: dougskiles on November 11, 2011, 07:55:13 AM
Anyone know Mr. Burney's position on form-based code? He has a great opportunity in front of him. I hope he makes the most if it.
I don't think he's against them. He was one of the few on the transportation transition team who mentioned transportation and land use policies should be better integrated, especially in the downtown and urban core areas.
Mr.Burney was a mess with MPO/Brannan Chaffee Beltway,willing participant in key erroneous network traffic alleviation images.
Talk about getting run over......,
nm...what data do you have showing that the Outer Beltway wouldn't alleviate traffic on parts of the regional network?
Great Article and on point.
Quote from: tufsu1 on November 11, 2011, 10:37:59 PM
nm...what data do you have showing that the Outer Beltway wouldn't alleviate traffic on parts of the regional network?
I must say, I hate the way we use fuzzy math to justify bad public infrastructure investments in this community. Quite frankly, nearly any improvement will provide some form of mobility benefit. The true questions are if the suggested project is the best option available and if theROI is greater than the investment in said project itself. Now that's some data I'd love to see.
I don't think he's against them. He was one of the few on the transportation transition team who mentioned transportation and land use policies should be better integrated, especially in the downtown and urban core areas.
[/quote]
Mr.Burney was a mess with MPO/Brannan Chaffee Beltway,willing participant in key erroneous network traffic alleviation images.
Talk about getting run over......,
[/quote]
Florida Times Union May 5,1998 B2 "Corridor Project will hasten Clay's growth" (BRANAN FIELD ROAD/Beltway n.m.)
-'The Jacksonville Metropolitan Planning Organization,which serves the transportation needs of Duval,Clay and St.Johns counties,estimates nearly 30,000 vehicles a day will travel the road as soon as it opens."
30,000 ADT (average daily traffic) in fact after a long period of modeled time,largely due to the new development the roadway would induce.
At the time,this was the latest and most blatant,stunning erroneous image of Blanding Blvd. 'Alternate','Network Alleviation" to lodge in Public mind.
Following the appearance of the FTU article I engaged in phone conversation And written conversation with Mr.Burney;MPO Chief.Mr. Burney's written response endorsed the modeled volume,but not the immediacy aspect.
FTU Reader Advocate Mike Clark received the same run around and although Mr.Clark agreed the issue deserved further investigation no further FTU effort was exercised .
During my personal meeting with Mr. Gurney July 13,1998/Genesis Group Branan Workshop Mr.Gurney again clearly hesitant to the concept of an immediate level of 30,000 ADT,but rather after a period of modeled time.
Others aware of the FTU/MPO episode included:Manley Fuller,Florida Wildlife Federation,Terrell Arline,1,000 Friends of Florida,Tom Barry,FDOT,Howard Glassman,MPO Advisory Council,Chair,Vice Chair,Members MPO,Jon L.Mills,Center for Governmental Responsibilty.
It gets about 30,000 a day right now. If all it will get is 30,000 a day, after an upgrade to expressway status, why bother? Make some intersection improvements, call it a day and spend money on solving real transportation problems elsewhere.
^ point !!