I've been looking recently at purchasing a condo. There are some pretty good deals out there but every condo I look at seems to have an association fee upwards of 300 bucks a month. Anybody know of condos with a decent association fee. My last one I lived at was 100 a month.
Don't live in a condo. The associations generally make the gestapo look friendly, and they tend to squander a lot of money. You'll generally wind up paying far more in dues, fees, and special assessments over time than it would cost to maintain a similarly-sized house. I personally wouldn't live in a condo if you paid me.
I would suggest you look for something that is fee simple (vs. condo)....in the case of my townhome complex downtown, the monthly dues are around $150...which pays for landscaping, community lighting, the pool and clubhouse, and security gates....it also includes painting of the exteriors and roofs on all buildings.
Quote from: tufsu1 on October 21, 2011, 10:30:15 AM
I would suggest you look for something that is fee simple (vs. condo)....in the case of my townhome complex downtown, the monthly dues are around $150...which pays for landscaping, community lighting, the pool and clubhouse, and security gates....it also includes painting of the exteriors and roofs on all buildings.
My condo is the same exact setup .. it's been $156 for three years.
We sell a lot of condos out of my office but I agree that some of the fees are way high. What also bothers me is that in some cases they will either go higher or else the owners will face an assessment at some point so the budget can place catch up. So many owners have defaulted that many condo associations are way behind on funds for reserves and maintenance and the only way to get that back is higher fees or tack on an assessment. Town houses and single family homes give you a lot more control on things as well. Condos pay commercial rates for insurance and you, as an owner have no control over who the carrier is or deductibles or anything. When you are in a single family home you can control all the expenses. And since condo fees count toward your ability to qualify for a mortgage you can often get a more expensive home by buying something without those fees.
Condos suck. Sorry for the negativity. Just stating the truth. I'd rather rent, and not own, then own a condo.
I believe I heard COAs at the Peninsula were around $0.49/SF, which is probably the highest in Jacksonville, and actually quite high. My COAs are $480/mo for a 2-bedroom, but I rent mine from the owners. I have heard of COAs approaching $1,000. $150/mo seems very reasonable to me, especially if that actually includes decent landscaping, security, and amenities. In the case of my building, it has gone to crap so probably less than 75% of owners are paying COAs. Elevators are constantly broken (and we are talking 400 units in 40 stories and only 4 elevators), the computers in the media room never work, and finishes are always scuffed. Security is a problem, too. Therefore, I believe what the owners of my unit pay in COAs and then pass down to me is too high for what we get.
Bottom line, if you don't want to pay $100-150/mo for amenities, good security, friendly staff, and a kept up appearance, DON'T buy a condo. However, if you rent, all of that money will be factored into your rent, and then some. You pay less for common areas in condos in many cases because the bill is separately displayed and a known factor, and increases or decreases are voted on by the association, which in turn is voted in by residents. With apartments, it's a lot more vague and feed up for the owner of the property. You as a resident are not privy to what it costs to run the property you rent in, unlike in a condo where this information is made public to residents in proxies.
Unless the Condo is on the ocean or a really nice one on the river, you basically have an apartment. When the housing market gets a cold, the condo market has pneumonia.
QuoteI have heard of COAs approaching $1,000.
Uh, buy a house for the same amount?
The other thing people don't consider is that with a house/yard in a non-gated community, you are still paying for all that maintenance. Unless you have a cleaning lady for your condo, you are not paying for very much maintenance at all. A yard can be expensive, especially if you have a good bit of it, a pool, driveway, gardens, etc. Not to mention your house is probably 2,000+ SF and your condo may be as small as 600 SF, a lot less to take care of.
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on October 27, 2011, 01:08:33 AM
QuoteI have heard of COAs approaching $1,000.
Uh, buy a house for the same amount?
I've looked at 3/2 condos for 70-80k in an area of town with good schools. Find me a house for that.
For me also, I am a single father with two kids and a full time job. It's not easy take care of a yard.
Any type of downtown living would have to be in condos, unless renting. If you want to live in a dense area, rather than a suburb, then I think it a fair price to pay. The condos above 5 points come to mind. You are in a highly dense area with retail below you, a grocery store you can walk to, nice parks, Riverside, bars, restaurants, etc. Also, you don't have to take care of anything on the exterior of your building.
Now, a townhome complex plopped in the middle of nowhere might be a different story, so research and you will come up with something nice. Those high fees you are paying, you more than likely will pay with a home with yard maintenance, extra insurance cost, maintaing your rpof, siding, etc.
If you are looking for an area with schools you like, then target the schools first. Tell your agent what area you want, find out what your choices are on a mortgage, and then go look. I think you'll be surprised at the number of homes you'll find. And hiring yard work is way cheaper than an association fee so don't let that discourage you. My agents work with folks just like you every day. It can be done.
QuoteQuote
I have heard of COAs approaching $1,000.
Uh, buy a house for the same amount?
I've looked at 3/2 condos for 70-80k in an area of town with good schools. Find me a house for that.
For me also, I am a single father with two kids and a full time job. It's not easy take care of a yard.
Simms3 was saying he's heard of COA fees hitting $1,000 a month. That's ON TOP of your mortgage. You can get somebody to take care of the yard at a house for way less than $1K per month :-)
Watch the back door too! Here in the World Golf Village our HOA fees are only $75 dollars a year but they'll nail you to the wall with CDD fees. Our CDD fees adds several hundreds of dollars to our monthly mortgage payments. Other neighborhoods within the 'village' have differing rates including a few spots without CDD fees at all. It's all good if you enjoy a nice garden and don't mind mowing the grass when it's 95 degrees in the shade and humidity is near 100%. The downside to suburbia in Jacksonville is that we're out in BFE, Nocatee would have been a better choice but you haven't lived until you've experienced greater metropolitan Tocoi.
Quote from: Brian Siebenschuh on October 27, 2011, 09:16:41 PM
QuoteQuote
I have heard of COAs approaching $1,000.
Uh, buy a house for the same amount?
I've looked at 3/2 condos for 70-80k in an area of town with good schools. Find me a house for that.
For me also, I am a single father with two kids and a full time job. It's not easy take care of a yard.
Simms3 was saying he's heard of COA fees hitting $1,000 a month. That's ON TOP of your mortgage. You can get somebody to take care of the yard at a house for way less than $1K per month :-)
Before people jump on me for bringing up other cities, I do discuss Jacksonville. Everything is relevant, but it is necessary to compare other buildings (for which Jax does not have many) by pricing, rentals, etc. All of this is necessary to understand why high rise condos are priced the way they are and why they rent for what they they do. Also, pay attention to these numbers, because these are mostly similar buildings to the Peninsula or the Strand or Berkman Plaza.
Current market conditions in a selection of new construction near me (Midtown to Buckhead):
The Atlantic (Atlantic Station, completed Aug 2010) $170K-$1.5M rents 1 BRs from $2,500, 2 BRs from $3,500 COAs @ $0.60/SF
1010 Midtown (completed Dec 2008) $199K-$1.65M rents 2 BRs from $3,200, COAs @ $0.28/SF (COAs are low because the 50,000SF base is rented out to high paying retail and restaurant tenants like Crate and Barrel, and this extra income basically carries that building)
Aqua (completed Sept 2007) $164.5K-$2.0M rents 1 BRs? from $2,950, PHs from $10,000, COAs @ $0.53/SF
Luxe (completed Dec 2008) 2 units left starting at $729.9K, overall range from $250K-$2.5M, no rentals, COAs at $0.31/SF
Sovereign $1.1M-$10.0M (though highest sale was for $5.0M), no rentals, COAs at $0.40/SF (office component of this building just sold for about $350/SF!...over 3x the max for Jax)
Ritz Carlton Residences (completed Jun 2009) $450K-$3.0M (though a PH went for $2.582M), no rentals, COAs at $0.68/SF
Mansion (completed 2008) $2.3M-$12.0M (though I believe PH was lowered to $3.95M) COAs range from $1,304/mo for smallest unit to $4,600/mo + $4,800/yr for the PH
10 Terminus (across from my office building, sold out, complete 2010) $180K-$1.6M (PH originally listed at $3.6M, sold for 55% off), 1 BR renting at $3,900/mo, COAs @ $0.40/SF
Gallery (completed Dec 2007) $300K-$1.4M, COAs @ $0.34/SF
1065 Peachtree (completed 2010) all rentals, 52 units, 1BRs from $2,900, 3 BRs from $5,500, COAs @ $0.30/SF?
The newest building, all rentals, 23 floors, breaking ground next month, has financing from Northwestern Mutual, 714SF 1-BRs start at $1,500/mo ($2.10/SF), and 1,102 SF 2-BRs start at $2,350/mo ($2.13/SF). Most units are 1-BRs, and there will be 20,000 SF of retail. Total cost is estimated at $81.75M for 330 units. It looks to be a roughly $200-225/SF construction cost, so if all units rent out for their given price, discounted to 10%, payback is well over a decade away.
Just to give one an idea, new office construction is about $280-$320/SF, so just to get payback (discounted), rents would have to be north of $30/SF. Top rents for class A space downtown do not exceed $21.50/SF currently. (And I just found out the other day that our BOA building has the fastest elevators in FL!) We have a longggg way to go before we see new residential or office high rise construction. Our hospitality real estate market is showing even worse performance.
Rental ranges in these buildings above are $1.63-$2.41+++/SF (the necesary range to get construction financing for new multifamily projects), or $1,467-$2,900+++/bedroom.
COAs ranged from $0.31-$0.68/SF, and of course $60K/year for the 9,586 SF PH of Mansion (56th floor...$0.52/SF). :o
Your COAs at the Peninsula are about $0.47 or $0.49/SF on average, so for the smallest units you're looking at $611/mo and for the largest units $1,316/mo.
For another comparison, my building is amongst the cheapest in Midtown Atlanta, but the COAs are high (because we have so many ghetto people who don't pay). My unit is 876 SF I believe, my COAs are $468, so that is roughly $0.53/SF. Units in my building range from "they say" $90s to $400s, but really you can get foreclosures here or burned out units for under $40K. The unfinished 40th floor is listed at $1.2M and has not sold yet, even though the building was constructed in 1989 (used to be entirely rentals). My rent here is $1,600 for 2 bedrooms and 1 bedrooms start at about $1,100.
Atlanta may seem "expensive", but for city living is actually cheap. This is slightly above the bottom range necessary to sustain high rise multifamily and condos. South of these numbers is unfeasible for lenders, developers, and equity partners, so there has to be a demand for these numbers. I can tell you $1,900 for 3 bedrooms on the top floor of the Strand is a money loser for the owner of that complex (unless there is something I don't know). First generation/new construction needs to be at about $1.70/SF or higher, which would mean rent for that same unit would need to start at $2,586 for the "Residence A" 3-BR and $3,080 for the "Residence S" 3-BR - what I would consider a fair price to pay for borderline luxury living 28 floors up on the river, with amenities at your fingertips to boot. People who own 3BR houses on the river are certainly paying nearly double that monthly on their mortgage.
For peer city comparisons, Austin prices similarly to Atlanta. Miami used to price A LOT higher than Atlanta, but is now quite similar considering its glut. Nashville is between Jax and Atlanta. Charlotte is slightly above Nashville in pricing, but not much (still a good 20-30% more expensive than Jacksonville). Birmingham does not have a high rise condo/multifamily market to speak of. Basically, the densest, most urban southeastern cities have the bare minimum pricing and markets necessary to do urban multifamily projects.
We used to live in a moderately priced gated neighborhood in Naples, FL. When we bought there in '94 the fees were $100 a month. By the time we left 14 years later they were $300 a month and that didn't include yard work. Even though I'm a Realtor and I know what the fees cover I decided I was through paying them. We bought in a neighborhood in Jax with no fees. I control whether or not I want cable, who my insurance carrier will be, I do my own yard, etc. If I spend as much money now it's because I choose to.
Quote from: ben says on October 24, 2011, 03:20:02 PM
Condos suck. Sorry for the negativity. Just stating the truth. I'd rather rent, and not own, then own a condo.
I totally agree with you buddy and that is why I don't have any condo of my own..!!
QuoteUh, buy a house for the same amount?
Cause Obama and Joe are going to eliminate the housing deduction from your taxes over the next few years to help pay down their spending. So what incentive do people have to own a house? Oh yeah, the picket fence. Nice.
their spending? are you ignoring the large debt run up during Reagan, Bush I, part of Clinton, and Bush II years?
even if we cut spending enough to eliminate current deficits (which is practically impossible), we still owe $15 trillion....how do you sppose we pay for that without significantly increasing revenues?