Metro Jacksonville

QuoteSheriff John Rutherford is pushing an aggressive plan to rid downtown of the undesirable elements that are stifling revitalization efforts.

He didn't pull punches when speaking to a group of downtown business owners, merchants and residents Wednesday afternoon.

Rutherford began by recalling patrolling downtown two decades ago.

"That's the exact same problem we had back then," he said. "The response has been the same for the last 20 years. And guess what? It's not working."

The downtown troublemakers are often broad brushed as "the homeless," but Rutherford said those without homes who are down on their luck, looking for work and in need of services from such agencies as Sulzbacher aren't the problem.

This is the problem as he sees it.

"I'm going to call them what they are," Rutherford said. "They are hoboes.

Full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400601/ron-littlepage/2011-10-14/we-need-clear-downtown-hoboes

God, some of these people are clueless. They really can't see beyond what's right in front of them can they? Can we all pitch in & buy the good Sheriff a plane ticket so he can fly to other cities that have thriving cores so he can see that they have just as many panhandlers, homeless, etc (if not more) than what's in our measly Hemming Plaza??

Nah, it's not shitty planning, lack of vision, uncontrolled sprawl, or lack of a decent transit network. It's those damn hoboes! Clean them out & watch your downtown just take right off. ::)

P.S. I'm not saying just let homeless people take over your city, but to say that they're the direct cause of "stifling revitalization" is just idiotic.

He can't help it....he's a republican who like his fellow republicans could care less about the homeless or downtrodden...i wonder when first baptist is going to open a help shelter?...is'nt that what a good christian is supposed to do?...Help...Has FBC ever had a homeless outreach program?...i wonder what good ole jesus would say about this?

Quote from: Garden guy on October 14, 2011, 07:23:36 AM
He can't help it....he's a republican who like his fellow republicans could care less about the homeless or downtrodden...i wonder when first baptist is going to open a help shelter?...is'nt that what a good christian is supposed to do?...Help...Has FBC ever had a homeless outreach program?...i wonder what good ole jesus would say about this?

Or better yet, what would THEIR version of Jesus do?

(http://www.myconfinedspace.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/09/republican_jesus.jpg)

HE'd probably merry the leader of the NRA and start a cult...same as always.

Part of the problem is that the non-homeless don't go DT generally, so the homeless basically have the place to themselves. 

However, you are kidding yourself if you think this issue is not having a negative affect on revitilization efforts.  Perception is realty and the perception is bad.  I'm not saying that the homeless should be rounded up and put on a bus, but the reality of the situation and the perceptions both have to be addressed.     

Reality...perception...hmm...so the reality that many many of jacksonville's families have lost thier homes and jobs is'nt understandable by the leadership of this city.....i'd love to see our sheriff spend a week homeless...he would last a night...most of those that make these decisions about the homeless and helpless have very little hands on actual experience being homeless so they really are'nt qualified to make any decisions about that issue....i wish a few of our leaders could see thier mom out there on the streets....or thier sister or brother...the cold hearted leaders we have in this city are just lost and unknowing....hmm...sounds like FBC....they close their eyes to the world around them...I bring food every week to the shelter..i wonder how much time and money and food our sheriff puts in at the homeless shelters?

GG, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. The members of FBC do more than you will ever know to help the homeless and other people who have fallen on hard times. I speak from experience. I happen to be a member there and know what the church does. I have made the case in other threads before, so not going to rehash here. What about Bethel, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Luthern Church, the AME church, the Catholic church????? FBC isnt the only church in Downtown.

Great..please explain exactly how many of the millions that fbc is sitting on goes to help the city and it's homeless and destitute?....how many drug programs..job programs...how many homeless are now being employeed by FBC...you guys are the richest in the city...you should have programs...are those programs known to the homeless?...i go down 2 days a week to deliver food and i've never met anyone from FBC on the streets...are they there?

' Homeless' camps within a few hundred yards from Ron Littlepage's office alongside McCoys creek are a proven debilitating effect on Downtown Urban Waterway Recreation and Restoration.

See Metro Jacksonville forum; Downtown.  Started by North Miami  Noone Hogans,McCoys,Fishweir creek trifecta

McCoys creek section

Quote from: Garden guy on October 14, 2011, 08:32:07 AM
Reality...perception...hmm...so the reality that many many of jacksonville's families have lost thier homes and jobs is'nt understandable by the leadership of this city.....i'd love to see our sheriff spend a week homeless...he would last a night...most of those that make these decisions about the homeless and helpless have very little hands on actual experience being homeless so they really are'nt qualified to make any decisions about that issue....i wish a few of our leaders could see thier mom out there on the streets....or thier sister or brother...the cold hearted leaders we have in this city are just lost and unknowing....hmm...sounds like FBC....they close their eyes to the world around them...I bring food every week to the shelter..i wonder how much time and money and food our sheriff puts in at the homeless shelters?

I do think there is a difference between families who have lost their homes and what the sheriff calls hoboes (hobos?).  By that I mean down on their luck versus the people urinating in bushes and/or masturbating in the library and generally leaving a mess wherever they camp.  Now what percentage is one or the other I don't know.  Also a lot of the ones doing the "hobo" stuff are mentally ill and unfortunately just left on the streets, but its clear there are those that are not just looking for a help.

So back to perception.  People who are looking to go out to dinner, buy/rent a condo, or relocate a business and step off the Skyway into Hemming Plaza and smell the urine and see people sleeping on benches in the small park behind the library might think to themselves that this is not where I want to be.  Combine that with the lack of crowds and you get a downtown that many people simply don't want to visit. 

Garden Guy, I'd learn to spell before making such uninformed sweeping generalizations.

Just an FYI, it is fact that on a per capita basis Republicans give a larger percentage of their income to charity than your hallowed Dems.

I'd like to think you're smarter than you sound, but it's tough to tell by reading some of your posts.

Quote from: fsujax on October 14, 2011, 08:44:34 AM
GG, you have no clue as to what you are talking about. The members of FBC do more than you will ever know to help the homeless and other people who have fallen on hard times. I speak from experience. I happen to be a member there and know what the church does. I have made the case in other threads before, so not going to rehash here. What about Bethel, the Methodist Church, the Presbyterian Church, the Luthern Church, the AME church, the Catholic church????? FBC isnt the only church in Downtown.

Consider the military sage that teaches us, the largest targets will always draw the poorest shots.

OCKLAWAHA

Stephen,

on this point

'In fact, in some ways they do more than others.  For example (and Chris can back me up here) our system isnt really set up for people who have no chance of working long term.  Once you 'exhaust' a preset allotted share of services, you can't get them again---so many days allowed at the Salvation Army, so many days allowed at Sulzbacher, so many rent assistances, so many food bank trips etc..  Its really only set up for people who are having temporary problems.'

Actually, there is no limit to the services at the Sulzbacher Center in regards to how long you can stay. The SC does not have limits on that. The average length of stay is two months but if an individual needs longer they can have it as long as they are actively working on their case plan. The center holds people accountable and requires them to be actively participating in their own rehabilitation. The Sulzbacher Center has over the years been successful in helping people from all walks of life get back on their feet and back into housing. This includes people who are homeless for the first time and also people who are chronically homeless (1+ years on the street). So I would disagree with the statement that the Sulzbacher Center is only a solution for people with temporary problems.

Thanks,

Sara D.

I don't think a day center away from downtown (NOT the landfill) is a bad idea. The current system of catch-and-release at the downtown jail doesn't do anyone any good. At this point we're arresting drunks, panhandlers, drug addicts, and others all across Duval County and bringing them downtown, where we just release them to the streets when they've done their time. For those who don't have inclination to leave and a way to do it, where else are they going to go? Why not have a day facility, and why not have it away from downtown?

I also have absolutely no objection to cracking down on certain undesirable behaviors such as panhandling, which is also engaged in by people who are neither homeless nor "hoboes", and is the kind of thing most people are really talking about when they complain about the "homeless". But the Sheriff could do that now under the current system if he made it a priority.

I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2011, 09:52:21 AM

Quote from: Garden guy on October 14, 2011, 08:55:30 AM
Great..please explain exactly how many of the millions that fbc is sitting on goes to help the city and it's homeless and destitute?....how many drug programs..job programs...how many homeless are now being employeed by FBC...you guys are the richest in the city...you should have programs...are those programs known to the homeless?...i go down 2 days a week to deliver food and i've never met anyone from FBC on the streets...are they there?

they give pretty heavily, actually, and they have a pretty substantial charity program.  John Allen Harrett and Trey Brunson spend many evenings quietly walking the streets ministering to the needs of the homeless.  I don't think Trey wants that advertised, because its supposed to be part of his mission and he doesnt want the attention as 'the preacher's son' to detract from the work itself, but Im actually proud of him for doing the Christian thing.

In fact, in some ways they do more than others.  For example (and Chris can back me up here) our system isnt really set up for people who have no chance of working long term.  Once you 'exhaust' a preset allotted share of services, you can't get them again---so many days allowed at the Salvation Army, so many days allowed at Sulzbacher, so many rent assistances, so many food bank trips etc..  Its really only set up for people who are having temporary problems.

Everyone else is just SOL.

One such case was a woman who had lost her trailer after having it robbed and being savagely beaten by her crack addicted son.  She was left for dead and attacked by dogs who savaged her legs.  Treated at the emergency room at shands and told to go forth.

There isnt a lot of therapy or treatment available, and so she ended up getting staff infection over her lower body and the skin peeled off and began bleeding.

When John found her she was sleeping in urine soaked clothes (bladder infection and continence problems) and dying.

He and Trey took her in, John got her cleaned up and found shelter, got her shands card, testified so that she could get food stamps, Trey got her clothes, they built her into the life of the Church by involving her in the choir programs despite the complaints about the 'homeless lady' from the young kids.  John personally drove her to her appointments all over the city to get her employment, and made her part of his life.  It took a year but she is back to functional status now, and improving.

The Church has paid her rent several times through the benevolence fund, and without the additional food that they provide at almost every function and service, she wouldnt have been able to make it on the food stamps.

Shes in a program that employs disabled senior citizens.  20 hours a week and a small pay check, and is a completely different person than the wreckage that John and Trey found over a year ago.

So, yes, Garden Guy, First Baptist does do outreach and they do help take care of the homeless.

When was the last time that you did the same as either John or Trey?

The last time was yesterday..i bring about 200 lbs of produce out of my garden every other week and give it out....i also give about 50 pb&j twice a week....i also have a nice deal with a bakery...so i give out sweets when i can...

I'll go on record as saying that I'm all for the detention center to be moved out of downtown.  It's in a premier spot and does nothing but devalue the area around it. 

Why Trail Ridge?  Doesn't the city own a nice, large parcel of land out on Lanie Rd?  I think it even has its own correction center on-site.   There are several acres that could be used as a 'holding' area for those charged under typical 'transient' crimes.  Our own little Tent Town, if you will, based off of the model in Arizona.

After being arrested, they are taken to the high-rise on the river for holding, then shipped with the routine busses that leave DCJ to MCC.  Processed, held, tried and released all out at MCC.    They only have a 3 mile walk to 295.

If Im not mistaken, the P Farm is located DEEEPP in the Northside in the middle of now where. Thats is where the Jail should be located.

Quote from: stephendare on October 14, 2011, 04:49:50 PM

Quote from: duvaldude08 on October 14, 2011, 04:01:55 PM
If Im not mistaken, the P Farm is located DEEEPP in the Northside in the middle of now where. Thats is where the Jail should be located.

are you sure that you really want men and women completely powerless under lock and key before they have actually been tried for a crime out in the middle of nowhere, far away from anyone noticing what might be happening to them?

humm... I didnt spin it that way Stephen. Good Point!

Truths:

1) Churches, including FBC, do/give the most to help our poor and indigent downtown population.

2) This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, quit trying to make it one.

3) "Hoboes" are in downtowns of every major city and that is where they need to be to access clustered support services.

4) Downtown is not suffering because of the homeless, it is suffering because of poor leadership and unintelligent planners.

5) People don't come downtown not because there are homeless people and a perception of crime, but because there is nothing for them to do or see there.

6) Ronald Littlepage is a well known Democrat, once again, quit trying to make this a partisan issue.  He actually did not form an opinion as he normally does.  He simply reported on discussions being had and agreed that having the discussion was progress for the issue.

7) New York, DC, and San Francisco have some of the densest and most present "hobo" populations of any city in the world.  In San Fran it is so bad that people always comment on it.  Somehow this does not stop any of these cities from being world class, vibrant centers of commerce and cosmopolitan life.  It also does not diminish the insane numbers of tourists and visitors each gets.

According to JSO, the jail needs to be in the vicinity of the courthouse to facilitate secure, short distance transportation of prisoners for their court dates. This, in addition to the cost of transportation, as well as easy accessibility for lawyers shuttling back and forth, is a reason to keep all the offenders close until such time they receive their marching orders for incarceration. Then they can be buried at the landfill. ;D

Seems like if they really want to free up that expensive land near the river for development and taxation they need to consider moving the Sheriffs office and the jail to the vacant land west? of the new courthouse. Use Monroe St., all of it, as a dedicated, secure corridor for law enforcement purposes only. There are only a few more buildings in that area that need to be razed  for this to happen.

Simply stated, we've done enough clearing of things downtown...buidlings, people, vitality...no more clearing!

"City Councilman Don Redman was in attendance, and he suggested putting the facility on city-owned property at the Trail Ridge Landfill.

Whatever site was selected, you can bet there would be protests from people who don't want downtown's problems dumped into their neighborhood."

Isnt this the guy that wanted to pray with the UNF professor in a city council meeting? Hes nuttier than 99% of the "hobos"!
And he wants a facility at Trail Ridge? Just for THEM?
IS THIS A JOKE? WHOS PAYING FOR THIS?  US, THE TAXPAYERS OF JACKSONVILLE?
NO NO NO...... The City is BROKE!!!! ;D

I agree with the sheriff..homeless people are one of the main reason that I don't want to go to downtown...also anybody else see the homeless guy sitting in front of everbank field every sunday when the jags play?? why can't they tell him to go away??

Quote from: Rynjny on October 14, 2011, 08:45:57 PM
I agree with the sheriff..homeless people are one of the main reason that I don't want to go to downtown...also anybody else see the homeless guy sitting in front of everbank field every sunday when the jags play?? why can't they tell him to go away??

Dude, stop talking about Jack Del Rio like that!

Quote from: RiversideLoki on October 14, 2011, 10:58:34 PM

Quote from: Rynjny on October 14, 2011, 08:45:57 PM
I agree with the sheriff..homeless people are one of the main reason that I don't want to go to downtown...also anybody else see the homeless guy sitting in front of everbank field every sunday when the jags play?? why can't they tell him to go away??

Dude, stop talking about Jack Del Rio like that!

LOLLLLLLL

Quote from: Kay on October 14, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

I also support  Sheriff Rutherford on this. I was there when he gave a presentation to the Board members of Downtown Vision. There will be many components to the puzzle. The discussions are happening and I'd like to participate and possibly be involved in Making it Happen. I'm looking at this in terms of positive benefits. Obviously its not working.   

Quote from: Noone on October 15, 2011, 03:53:42 AM

Quote from: Kay on October 14, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

I also support  Sheriff Rutherford on this. I was there when he gave a presentation to the Board members of Downtown Vision. There will be many components to the puzzle. The discussions are happening and I'd like to participate and possibly be involved in Making it Happen. I'm looking at this in terms of positive benefits. Obviously its not working.   

Relocation camps have been used to either hide away or eliminate people "society" doesn't like or want to see for hundreds if not thousands of years.  Each and every time, regardless of the time period, regardless of the initial reason, they become a huge black mark in the history books.  Certainly it makes sense to have Jacksonville continue it's downward spiral into the blackness as this city has consistently done the right thing to end up NOT a prosperous and progressive place to live.   

When smart and supposedly intelligent people fail to see where the real issues lie, there is little hope for the future.

Quote from: strider on October 15, 2011, 09:11:15 AM

Quote from: Noone on October 15, 2011, 03:53:42 AM

Quote from: Kay on October 14, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

I also support  Sheriff Rutherford on this. I was there when he gave a presentation to the Board members of Downtown Vision. There will be many components to the puzzle. The discussions are happening and I'd like to participate and possibly be involved in Making it Happen. I'm looking at this in terms of positive benefits. Obviously its not working.   

people fail to see where the real issues lie,

What are they? Just two or three.

Just a few points:

1.  The Sheriff is targeting that relatively small group that are aggressive panhandlers or commit minor crimes in order to either satisfy a chemical addiction problem or a psychological problem (some would argue both).  Many of these persons are not actually homeless, they live locally but prefer to participate in this parasitic lifestyle.  The Sheriff knows this and he is attempting to make such behavior more inconvenient for those who participate in it as well as those who enable them.  He is not targeting those that are not breaking laws, are attempting to improve their condition, or are mentally ill.

2.  The "remote misdemeanor release site" that he proposed is NOT a housing center, but rather a processing center for release from custody.  This could be collocated with a misdemeanor court that tries these types of cases.

3. ALL pre trial prisoners are held in the Pre Trial Detention Facility downtown.  Once tried and sentenced, prisoners are sent to differing facilities depending on their sentence.  Those sentenced to time up to one year for misdemeanors without special conditions are sent to the pea farm at Lannie Road.  I believe that the corrections Chief posts here and she could give the exact policies.

4.  I will renew my call for a return to the State Hospital system for the mentally ill.  As a previous poster noted, some people, usually due to mental illness, will never be able to exist without help.  We should employ professionals to decide which of these folks can live in the general public with support, and which need permanent housing and structure in their lives.  I firmly believe that the costs of such a system would be less that the current system not to mention the compassion we should have for these citizens.

5.  To argue here over political parties or religion, or to argue over "who does more for the homeless" is a waste of all of our time and energy.  I would suggest that we stick to explaining the facts, as Sara did, or offer our opinions of what steps should be taken to help solve the problem.

Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

Quote from: NotNow on October 15, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

Quote from: strider on October 15, 2011, 09:11:15 AM

Quote from: Noone on October 15, 2011, 03:53:42 AM

Quote from: Kay on October 14, 2011, 12:34:38 PM
I'm with the Sheriff on this one.  He's not talking about the temporarily homeless who need help getting back on their feet.  I don't think it makes me a Nazi for thinking this particular population should go where they won't disturb others.

I also support  Sheriff Rutherford on this. I was there when he gave a presentation to the Board members of Downtown Vision. There will be many components to the puzzle. The discussions are happening and I'd like to participate and possibly be involved in Making it Happen. I'm looking at this in terms of positive benefits. Obviously its not working.   

Relocation camps have been used to either hide away or eliminate people "society" doesn't like or want to see for hundreds if not thousands of years.  Each and every time, regardless of the time period, regardless of the initial reason, they become a huge black mark in the history books.  Certainly it makes sense to have Jacksonville continue it's downward spiral into the blackness as this city has consistently done the right thing to end up NOT a prosperous and progressive place to live.   

When smart and supposedly intelligent people fail to see where the real issues lie, there is little hope for the future.

Absolutely! If you do not have a home, apartment, trailer, or any personal place to lie your head at night you should be given a free pass on your behavior- such as defecating and urinating in public, following women with children around the parking lot screaming at them for money, slamming a brick into the back of someones head because they do not give it to you, trashing public spaces, breaking into vacant homes and setting them on fire. YES YES YES!!! And as long as we are sanctioning this behavior, we should let EVERYONE act this way and get a free pass. I mean heck, if I am downtown and there are not any bathrooms available and I have to go....well I am in the same plight as the homeless living there so I should be able to drop my pants on Main st also and ya'll should be just fine with that. I also think you OWE me some money because I am thirsty and I know you have it, and if you do not hand it over I have a right to harass and follow you around until you are miserable.

Quit lumping all homeless into the same group. As with all segments of society you have the good, marginal, and bad. Ultimately it is the worst kind of double standard to sanction this type of behavior and say it is OK because you happen to be homeless, or an addict, or your mother beat you as a child. You certainly are not doing them any favors or helping them out of their situation by allowing them to not take personal responsibility for their actions.  Sanctioning of this type of behavior, and lumping in this bad segment with the homeless family that just lost their job and house  is what desensitizes the general public to the specific plight of the homeless, which if course is the precursor to the dreaded camps you speak of.

Quote from: hillary supporter on October 15, 2011, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: NotNow on October 15, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

Oh, I don't mean on just this subject, I mean NEVER pay any attention to Littlepage.  :)

And I thought the Sheriff was very clear in who and what he meant by "hobo's".... see point #1 above.

Like I said:

Quote
Certainly it makes sense to have Jacksonville continue it's downward spiral into the blackness as this city has consistently done the right thing to end up NOT a prosperous and progressive place to live.   

When smart and supposedly intelligent people fail to see where the real issues lie, there is little hope for the future.

Worth repeating and worth reading:

Quote from: simms3 on October 14, 2011, 05:29:29 PM
Truths:

1) Churches, including FBC, do/give the most to help our poor and indigent downtown population.

2) This is not a Republican or Democrat issue, quit trying to make it one.

3) "Hoboes" are in downtowns of every major city and that is where they need to be to access clustered support services.

4) Downtown is not suffering because of the homeless, it is suffering because of poor leadership and unintelligent planners.

5) People don't come downtown not because there are homeless people and a perception of crime, but because there is nothing for them to do or see there.

6) Ronald Littlepage is a well known Democrat, once again, quit trying to make this a partisan issue.  He actually did not form an opinion as he normally does.  He simply reported on discussions being had and agreed that having the discussion was progress for the issue.

7) New York, DC, and San Francisco have some of the densest and most present "hobo" populations of any city in the world.  In San Fran it is so bad that people always comment on it.  Somehow this does not stop any of these cities from being world class, vibrant centers of commerce and cosmopolitan life.  It also does not diminish the insane numbers of tourists and visitors each gets.

I don't suppose anyone has noticed that when there IS something for people to do Downtown, there ARE people walking around and having fun, even though those terrible hobos are there, not relocated to somewhere else. 

The few who won't go downtown because of or are "scared off" by those relatively few hobos are not worth worrying about and will go downtown anyway when there are more things to do there.

It's a tough problem with no easy answers.

The people - the homeless, hoboes, bums, ne'er-do-wells or whatever you choose to call them, are like you and me- they are, or were, someone's son, daughter, sister, brother, dad, mother.

Most of them have lost their family support systems either through mental illness, substance abuse or a combination thereof.   Heck, I'm basically lazy, but the things and lifestyle I like require me to work, so I do.  So do most of us, and my work, although often like slamming my head into a concrete block wall repeatedly, is still fulfilling in a masochistic way.

I think the Sheriff may be trying to focus on dealing with individuals and their problems, and addressing those in such a way as to either provide help, or provide an incentive to look elsewhere for softer targets.

There is no absolute when dealing with human problems.  We are all individuals, and have unique needs and motivators, based on our experiences in life.  But, we have a tendancy to think that everyone is just like us, and what would motivate us, would do the same to others.  Jailing most of the homeless is simply a good night's sleep to them.

And I'm kinda thinking the nice folks living on the more rural stretches of Lem Turner and Lannie Road would have a little something to say about a line of releases from the P-Farm knocking on their doors for a handout or breaking into their storage sheds on the way to I-295.  Just as you would if we released the time-ups in the back of your 'hood and told them to get back the best way they could.

Whatever the answer is, and I don't have it, nor does anyone else because it's far from one-size-fits-all, it's something we need to determine as a community.  What will we tolerate, what will we remove, and above all, what will we pay to do it.  Because nothing in life is free. 

Quote from: NotNow on October 15, 2011, 12:49:48 PM

Quote from: hillary supporter on October 15, 2011, 10:41:59 AM

Quote from: NotNow on October 15, 2011, 10:06:05 AM
Oh, I forgot:

6.  Pay no attention to Ron Littlepage!

I'm confused. The thread is about the article Littlepage wrote. I mean it is an opinon piece, although im reading it more unbaised in that it covered  a public meeting.
I dont have issues with his article at all. Its with the sheriff ( are they homeless or hoboes?) or Councilman Redman ( your behavior at this public event should assure all that you are not to be taken seroiusly).

Oh, I don't mean on just this subject, I mean NEVER pay any attention to Littlepage.  :)

And I thought the Sheriff was very clear in who and what he meant by "hobo's".... see point #1 above.

Yes, indeed he was.

I am not taking a side here, but stating the obvious.
The sheriff in his own way might also have been specifically targeting those seasonal Northern Homeless who travel down here for our 40 degree wet winter.He did say HOBO didn't he?
When I volunteered at city rescue mission at least 5 men told me they "were given a bus ticket from Philly/Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago to just get out of town" whether you believe their story is up to you. But we might be helping out more than we have living here..taxing our already affected social services.
It would be interesting to hear how these visitors behave amongst the true local economy victims that we see living alongside the Drug/Alcohol panhandling Zombies. (which in itself would be a story)

This is such a delicate topic and  very interesting  points of view...

I will wholeheartedly agree with the posting that said , but by the Grace of God, it could be any one of us.

I also believe there are homeless that are in that position by circumstance, some that did not want to work and wants and expects a hand out.   Still there are others as stated with addictions and mental disorders... There are many varying degrees of reasons  and no easy solution.     All of them are human beings and should be treated as such...not moved to a facility near Trailridge or out in no man's land to fend for themselves..  None of us would want to be in that position. 

It is unfortunate that buildings like the remaining vacant Job Corps building,  and the like cannot be utilized to help those who are homeless who TRULY WANT to better their lives.

I had no idea that First Baptist Church and alike churches did as much as they do for the homeless, and I think it is wonderful and truly a Christian thing to truly help and not judge the down-trodden.  It makes me realize that I can do more to help and probably so can many. 

Finger pointing ,and thinking of these people as less than human and a nuisance to society will not solve the problem.

Criminals, whether homeless or not- are criminals and they don't get a free pass just because they are homeless. Being "down on your luck" does not give you the right to be abusive to others, and break the law.

I think it is cruel to treat all homeless as one. Imagine a parent being homeless. They not only have to find food and shelter daily for themselves and their children, but there is a HUGE saftey issue now because we have concentrated 99% of services all together in one spot forcing a one size fits all solution on the total population. A homeless family has specific needs different from that of a homeless drug addict. An elderly homeless woman has different needs from a homeless hobo from NY given a bus ticket to come to Jacksonville for the summer.

One other thought, I just can't let pass without comment:

  "And I'm kinda thinking the nice folks living on the more rural stretches of Lem Turner and Lannie Road would have a little something to say about a line of releases from the P-Farm knocking on their doors for a handout or breaking into their storage sheds on the way to I-295.  Just as you would if we released the time-ups in the back of your 'hood and told them to get back the best way they could."

Are the good folks of downtown and the urban core just not quite as good as the good folks of Lem Turner?  Concentration of 99% of the homeless population in one area is not the right thing to do, it is not right for the homeless, or the residents whose backyard they are living in.

QuoteFinger pointing ,and thinking of these people as less than human and a nuisance to society will not solve the problem.

All homeless are welcome at Annie Lytle, if its full, it cannot be torn down!  :P

Ron Littlepage is paid to be a word smith and I would think would have to have more then a little skill as a reporter but he blew this one. Perhaps he just used the Sheriffs terminology but if he did, he perpetuated an error and he of all people should know the difference.

All Ron had to do was google the term 'hobo' to learn that the Sheriff is targeting bums, not Bo's.

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A hobo is a term which is often applied to a migratory worker or homeless vagabond, often penniless. The term originated in the Westernâ€"probably Northwesternâ€"United States during the last decade of the 19th century. Unlike 'tramps', who work only when they are forced to, and 'bums', who do not work at all, 'hobos' are workers who wander.

Tramps and hobos are commonly lumped together, but in their own sight they are sharply differentiated. A hobo or bo is simply a migratory laborer; he may take some longish holidays, but soon or late he returns to work. A tramp never works if it can be avoided; he simply travels. Lower than either is the bum, who neither works nor travels, save when impelled to motion by the police.
SOURCE: Mencken, H.L. (1937). "On the road again".


Hobo (ethical) code

An ethical code was created by Tourist Union #63 during its 1889 National Hobo Convention in St. Louis Missouri.This code was voted upon as a concrete set of laws to govern the Nation-wide Hobo Body; it reads this way:
1.Decide your own life, don't let another person run or rule you.
2.When in town, always respect the local law and officials, and try to be a gentleman at all times.
3.Don't take advantage of someone who is in a vulnerable situation, locals or other hobos.
4.Always try to find work, even if temporary, and always seek out jobs nobody wants. By doing so you not only help a business along, but ensure employment should you return to that town again.
5.When no employment is available, make your own work by using your added talents at crafts.
6.Do not allow yourself to become a stupid drunk and set a bad example for locals' treatment of other hobos.
7.When jungling in town, respect handouts, do not wear them out, another hobo will be coming along who will need them as bad, if not worse than you.
8.Always respect nature, do not leave garbage where you are jungling.
9.If in a community jungle, always pitch in and help.
10.Try to stay clean, and boil up wherever possible.
11.When traveling, ride your train respectfully, take no personal chances, cause no problems with the operating crew or host railroad, act like an extra crew member.
12.Do not cause problems in a train yard, another hobo will be coming along who will need passage through that yard.
13.Do not allow other hobos to molest children, expose all molesters to authorities, they are the worst garbage to infest any society.
14.Help all runaway children, and try to induce them to return home.
15.Help your fellow hobos whenever and wherever needed, you may need their help someday.
16.If present at a hobo court and you have testimony, give it. Whether for or against the accused, your voice counts!

Now if you think this is just a thing of the past, tell it to the Hobo King or Queen, elected on September 8, 2011, at the annual convention in Britt, Iowa. The small town of Britt, Iowa is best known for hosting the 111-year-old National Hobo Convention. The annual happening is a celebration of making light of homelessness, and includes events such as the Hobo Sunday Outdoor Church Service, the Hobo Auction, the Hobo Royalty coronation (featuring the “coffee can crown”), and other depressing euphemisms.

This years Hobo King and Queen, Uncle Freddie and Minneapolis Jewel (their hobo names) both hail from Minnesota. Uncle Freddie was knighted Emperor of the North. Perhaps Jacksonville could use some of this bad press for a good cause and knight our own Emperor of the South.  I'm sure the queen (yeah the real one in England) would approve, since she more or less started this tradition. 

I think we'd all agree that tossing out our bums would be a good thing, our tramps are more likely in need of some redirection, but our true hobos are harmless at worst, and beneficial at best.

OCKLAWAHA

^^^ Thanks for providing such differentiation.
Snobbery is far worse than ignorance.

Quote from: Ernest Street on October 15, 2011, 10:39:44 PM
I am not taking a side here, but stating the obvious.
The sheriff in his own way might also have been specifically targeting those seasonal Northern Homeless who travel down here for our 40 degree wet winter.He did say HOBO didn't he?
When I volunteered at city rescue mission at least 5 men told me they "were given a bus ticket from Philly/Detroit/Cleveland/Chicago to just get out of town" whether you believe their story is up to you. But we might be helping out more than we have living here..taxing our already affected social services.
It would be interesting to hear how these visitors behave amongst the true local economy victims that we see living alongside the Drug/Alcohol panhandling Zombies. (which in itself would be a story)

I volunteer once a month at the City Rescue Mission and hear the same thing about them being given bus tickets from up north. After serving we spend a couple of hours sitting and talking at I am in awe at the wide range of stories that I hear.

Don't relocate the things that are in downtown for all people (benches, bathrooms and shade). Relocate things that are just there to attract the homeless (sulzbacher center, City Rescue mission, and locations for church food drop offs).  I am not saying a new center needs to be near trail ridge though with the massive amounts of space out there nowhere near the actual dump it is not the apocalyptic scene you may imagine. We do need to find a dedicated area that can function as a labor pool, internet (job hunting/ education) site, good bus service, showers and sleep.

You know folks we have a real problem.  Honestly, I don't know the solution.  Hobo or homeless, dems out give rep, churches give more, whoever/whatever.  This past Saturday I passed through downtown going by Hemming plaza this place was filled to the brim with homeless people.  I am compassionate and I know these are extreme times, however, this is a double negative for downtown-these people do little or nothing to contribute to the econmic effect of downtown and on the other hand they keep people away that could contribute.  I definitely am not a snob, honestly I would feel uneasy walking in the middle of that crowd and having a seat.  Maybe I'm wrong for feeling this way, I always poll my friends to see if I'm way off.  Everyone I spoke with expressed my feelings.  My point is this, if I feel this way, most people in this town feels even stronger about this than I.  When the Homeless out number the regular citizens 30 to 1 there will be few store fronts open for business, empty sidewalk cafes, no children running and flying kites in the park on a Saturday mornings.

We can be contentious all we want, but we need to find a way to take our urban core back and provide for those in need. Some of you bright minded people need to come up with something.  We've had this discussion before.  Maybe put the help shelters on the out skirts of downtown.  Let's do something NOW!

I would concur, Seraphs...  So where, specifically  would you suggest?    NOBODY wants to have these people in THEIR neighborhood and the effect on downtown is bad,  but the point is, these people have to go somewhere.   The last time I made a post on this topic , it was followed  a few later  by a smart-ass member of this discussion who continually takes stabs at me about building (s)  I happen to think SHOULD be spared.  The member NEVER contributes anything useful to the discussion on ANY topic , not just this one. It kind of makes me wonder why it continues to be allowed here.. Just the same negativity every time, and yet, I bet anything would NEVER contribute toward an answer to this problem.    I would love to help solve this situation. I will say again, I believe there are homeless that are so because they did not want to work , pay their way through life as most of us do , and there are MANY others that are in that situation , despite their best efforts, and still others because of mental and physical disability.  They are not all dead-beats and panhandlers by choice.  Unfortunately, I think the homeless issue is going to become MUCH MORE of a problem... :(

I agree.. it does affect our core, but we cannot haul all of them out of town and just dump them off somewhere.   So where do we establish these shelters , that SOMEONE would not object to , and would be reasonable? 

The presence of homeless camps revealed during recent explorations of McCoys creek was only briefly disturbing.
The camps simply a piece of a larger puzzle, or better yet,a larger system.

Is there a certain built in feature?
Area resident Don Lohman grew up near McCoys creek in the late 40's,early 50's.
Don says Hobo types would show up on the front porch,neighborhood from time to time-thanks to the railways.

I just don't see a problem with removing downtown from the equation in how we deal with panhandlers and other troublemakers. Currently, we not only catch downtown offenders and release them downtown, we catch offenders from all over the county and then release them downtown. Whatever else we do to address this problem, downtown is not a necessary part of it.

The homeless and what to do with them is a problem in every major city, not just Jacksonville. There are some city who have it much worse. The only thing that makes out situation different is that our DT is not heavily populated, therefore the homeless are more visable and feel more comfortable to congregate. its just funny how Jacksonville residents are afraid of the homeless, when residents of more progressive cities just simply ignore them.

The Brits have a good, descriptive term for a certain segment of society.  They call them "layabouts".  I think that description fits most of those in Hemming Park, many of whom are not "homeless".

"Homeless" implies that a person is a passive victim of circumstance, such as losing a job and that they would be just fine if we could get them shelter.  It is a term designed to keep us from making a moral judgement about the circumstance in which many of these people have chosen to live.

"Bum" is a nice, short Anglo-Saxon word that describes someone who doesn't want to work and has found a way live without working by panhandling or by getting some other person to support them such as a husband, wife, parent, church, charity.  Some of them are even "middle class" if their partner earns enough.

The first step should be to get the jail out of downtown.  Put it out on Pecan Park at the end of the runway.

Personally, I'm not afraid of homeless people or layabouts, however, it's perfectly understandable why people can be afraid.  This lifestyle makes people hard.  Many of these folks become aggressive at the drop of a hat.  Lots of times these folks are bold and they don't care what they do.  I've spent time in cities all over this country including New York so I'm familiar with the homelessness issues.  For about four years I rode JTA in this town and I cannot count the times I almost sat in human excrement, not my idea of a good day.  People build townhomes on the river to look out at a vista, and in the middle of the view is someone parked on a bench with a buggy full of crap.

We should all cohabitate, nevertheless, downtown shouldn't be handed to homeless people as a consolation prize because they are homeless.  We've talked about this a thosand times, Timkin maybe the shelters could be in the church St. and Myrtle Ave. area, or Dennis St., also 8Th St. near industrial sites.  Many of my statements may sound harsh especially to the cry babies, but I do empathize with people in this situation.  I try to help when and where I can.

Quote from: Seraphs on October 19, 2011, 01:40:28 AM
Personally, I'm not afraid of homeless people or layabouts, however, it's perfectly understandable why people can be afraid.  This lifestyle makes people hard.  Many of these folks become aggressive at the drop of a hat.  Lots of times these folks are bold and they don't care what they do.  I've spent time in cities all over this country including New York so I'm familiar with the homelessness issues.  For about four years I rode JTA in this town and I cannot count the times I almost sat in human excrement, not my idea of a good day.  People build townhomes on the river to look out at a vista, and in the middle of the view is someone parked on a bench with a buggy full of crap.

We should all cohabitate, nevertheless, downtown shouldn't be handed to homeless people as a consolation prize because they are homeless.  We've talked about this a thosand times, Timkin maybe the shelters could be in the church St. and Myrtle Ave. area, or Dennis St., also 8Th St. near industrial sites.  Many of my statements may sound harsh especially to the cry babies, but I do empathize with people in this situation.  I try to help when and where I can.

None of your statements are taken by me, personally as harsh. I understand where you are coming from .

Another prospective...

"Let me tell you, good Gotama, that Brahmins offer sacrifice and get others to do so. All these are following a course of merit, due to sacrifice, that benefits many people. But whoever from this or that family has gone forth from home into homelessness, he tames but one self, calms but one self, makes but one self attain final Nirvana. Thus due to his going forth, he is following a course of merit that benefits only one person."

From The Compassionate Buddha, Part III, Chapter 10, Is Adopting The Way of A Monk A Selfish Act, pp 122.

OCK ;D

Quote from: Ocklawaha on October 22, 2011, 02:07:27 PM
Another prospective...

"Let me tell you, good Gotama, that Brahmins offer sacrifice and get others to do so. All these are following a course of merit, due to sacrifice, that benefits many people. But whoever from this or that family has gone forth from home into homelessness, he tames but one self, calms but one self, makes but one self attain final Nirvana. Thus due to his going forth, he is following a course of merit that benefits only one person."

From The Compassionate Buddha, Part III, Chapter 10, Is Adopting The Way of A Monk A Selfish Act, pp 122.

OCK ;D

The Home-Less camps strewn along downtown waterways are a stark contrast to the endless parade of waterfront home sites more in line with Social Construction,many owners just a few missed mortgage payments removed from homeless-ness.

Here is a video of the meeting with Sheriff Rutherford.

http://www.youtube.com/v/R6fd5j_7zcY?version=3&hl=en_US

Federal program for Downtown’s homeless

Purchase this photo
The population of homeless people Downtown will be surveyed Nov. 14-18 as part of a federal program to place homeless people in homes with access to services.
A plan to move some of Downtown’s homeless population off the streets was announced Wednesday.
Shawn Liu, the Jacksonville case worker for the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs Health Care for Homeless Veterans Program, made the presentation to the board of directors of Downtown Vision Inc., the 501c3 funded by Downtown property owners and the City to provide services and advocate for the improvement of the neighborhood.

The initiative is an extension of a federal program that places medically at-risk veterans in apartments and rental homes.

The $75 million HUD-Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing program combines Housing Choice Voucher rental assistance for homeless veterans with case management and clinical services provided by the Veterans Administration at VA medical centers and community-based outreach clinics.

Liu said a team of volunteers will survey the homeless population Nov. 14-16 beginning at 4 a.m. during what he called “Registry Week.”

“If you’re not in a shelter and you’re on the street or under a bridge, that’s your home. We’re going to comb Downtown and administer a two-page survey to assess medical needs,” said Liu.

He said experience has proven that homeless people more than 62 years old, those who have HIV or AIDS and those who have been homeless for more than six months are most at risk to die because they are homeless.

He said the local program has been designated “100 Homes for Jacksonville” and will provide at least 50 residences for homeless veterans through the VA and the remainder for non-veterans with the assistance of the community.

Sixty-two housing units have been secured already for the local initiative.

“We’re looking for sponsors for 38 homes,” Liu said.

He said the program is based on a national model, the “Community Solutions 100,000 Homes Campaign.” In addition to subsidized housing, it provides medical care, counseling and job training to provide a sustainable solution for a homeless person.

The data from the survey will be evaluated to create a registry of candidates and a priority list. Liu said a community briefing and news conference is scheduled Nov. 18 in the auditorium at AT&T Tower 301.

“Our goal is to house one to five people before Christmas. We’ll get them in a home and then help them learn to be fiscally responsible. Sustainability is the key,” said Liu.

“This is a Downtown initiative. The survey will unveil a pretty concrete number of homeless people Downtown. We can make Downtown a brighter place while addressing the needs of homeless people,” he said.

The program needs volunteers to help conduct the survey and sponsor T-shirts, breakfast and coffee for volunteers. Liu said sponsors also are needed to provide services or help defray costs of moving, furniture and security and utility deposits for the rental residences.

“Our intent is not to concentrate the people in the program and create a slum, but to distribute the participants across the community,” similar to HUD’s Section 8 housing program, he said.

For information, visit www.100homesjax.org.


mmarbut@baileypub.com

Sheriff Rutherford spoke tonight at the UC CPAC meeting about his "hobo camp". I love the fact that he is seeking a solution, I hate his idea about the misdemeanor relocation facility.

I was in a minority.

Haven't posted to the site in a while, but I do check the stories and comments daily. Thought I would share an experience I had with my sons on Sunday afternoon.  Had planned to go to the air show, but because of the temperature and wind my father opted out and we decided not to go. Instead I grabbed my 2 boys (10 and 13) and jumped in the car and decided to head downtown (kids like to see the fountain and cross the main street bridge (wife does not). Arrived approx. 12:00, parked near MOSH, walked around the fountain for a few minutes (looks great!) and started our trek across the bridge. Stopped halfway to take a phone picture to send to the wife. Around this time we were met my a homeless person who at first passed by with no incident. Soon after, the alarm sounded indicating the bridge was about to lift for a few sailboats waiting to pass under. Said hobo turned around (now behind us) and began yelling and cursing profanities toward both my sons and I. ("They will kill everyone, They will blow your heads off! They will eat your F*^$ing brains!") over and over. Wheather he was even talking to us or just rambling to the sky makes no matter. He was walking faster towards us as my kids started to pick up speed to get OFF THE BRIDGE asap. Both he and us ducked under the gate to proceed toward the landing.  He was still shouting the same profanities and following us closely. I want to be clear that I did not feel like I was in harm (more annoyed) and I have spent a lot of time on New York city (growing up on Long Island). Here is the point to this post. MY KIDS WERE BOTH TERRIFIED! We got to the landing (which was a ghost town) where we had planned to have lunch. (upstairs was locked?) we quickly decided to re cross the bridge, get to our car and leave. I have spent a lot of time downtown over the last 9 years, and have been a Jaguar season ticket holder for 5 with no negative incident (other than to many Jag losses) But it will be hard to get either son to "hit the town" anytime soon. This was a random unfortunate experience, but underscores the need to handle the homeless problem downtown... It is impeding growth!