QuoteUrban Farmers Want Changes to Jacksonville City Code
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. - In Amanda and Mark Searle's backyard, the chickens do a lot of the work.
The hens eat most of the insects that venture onto the property and along with the three goats, they keep the grass trimmed and thriving.
The animals also provide food for the couple. The chickens lay about eight eggs each day. The goats produce milk, which Amanda Searle also uses to make cheese.
The Searles are one of a number of families in the Springfield area of Jacksonville that have created their own urban oasis by running a small farm literally in their own backyard.
"More and more people are just concerned with rising food costs [and] what's in their food, " explained Amanda Searle. "The eggs and the milk that you get are way more nutritious than anything you get from an Agra-business or something from the grocery store. So, it has to do with health and nutrition too."
The family estimates that their grocery bill has been reduced by two thirds in the year since they got the livestock and they say their carbon footprint has gone down even more dramatically.
"We have the resources right here in Northeast Florida to produce whatever we want. We've got plenty of sunshine, plenty of water and we've got great soil here," said Mark Searle. "So, why shouldn't we just eat fresh food, not pay for it and not have to worry about all the hydrocarbons that are wasted producing food and trucking it across the country."
more
http://springfield.firstcoastnews.com/news/environment/61867-urban-farmers-want-changes-jacksonville-city-code
We aren't the only ones - more urban farmers will be at the Forum tonight. Its not only about cost, but health too. Our animals aren't fed a diet of primarily feed - this makes the eggs and milk they give us more nutritious plus it IS cost effective. And while it may not be for everyone, for those of us who want to raise our own food, we should have the option, with restrictions in place so as not to offend our neighbors. Plenty of cities around the US have already amended their codes to great success so we have something to pull from in updating our codes.
Small scale is key to making this work in more dense areas. Permitting and via exception allow city oversight. NONE of our neighbors mind our animals - only the city does. Many of our neighbors bring their kids down our alley to visit with the goats, who love the interaction with the kids. These kids are in turn learning where their food comes from, something many inner city kids are not otherwise exposed to.
Education and scale are key
From the TU today
QuoteHearing tonight will focus on urban gardens, livestock within Jacksonville city limits
Discussion to focus on its coexistence with city life.
Posted: October 5, 2011 - 7:10pm | Updated: October 6, 2011 - 6:48am
KELLY JORDAN/The Times-Union
Mark Searle, an advocate of urban farming, holds an egg from the henhouse in the backyard of his Springfield home.
In her historic Springfield neighborhood, where houses and shops have stood for more than a century on the edge of downtown Jacksonville, Amanda Searle sees places for gardens, chickens and goats.
The city's ordinance code sees things differently, and Searle has risked citations and fines for keeping backyard livestock that supply her family with eggs and milk for goat cheese.
She's also met enough people with the same interests that Searle, a real estate agent and leader of a group called Sustainable Springfield, argues the time could be ripe to change zoning laws to allow more agriculture in some of the city's oldest neighborhoods.
Read more at Jacksonville.com: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-10-05/story/hearing-tonight-will-focus-urban-gardens-livestock-within-jacksonville#ixzz1a0FeeJT9
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-10-05/story/hearing-tonight-will-focus-urban-gardens-livestock-within-jacksonville (http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011-10-05/story/hearing-tonight-will-focus-urban-gardens-livestock-within-jacksonville)
Im sorry but I dont see the upside of this at all. People already refer to Jacksonville as being country. Imagine if a goats gets loose and someone here for a Jags game sees it! LOL We would just be feeding the people perceptions about our city. Who would want a "farm" practically downtown. Weird.....
Well, DuvalDude, one reason people from other cities see Jacksonville as backwards is that we DON'T embrace movements like urban agriculture. Cities that are universally viewed as being much more progressive (Portland and Atlanta, for example) have already enacted ordinances that allow this.
Over 700 cities have already amended their codes, including NY, Chicago, Seattle - no one accuses them of being country.
This is already going on all over Jacksonville - it is a huge trend in the US. We are only asking the city to codify what its citizens are wanting to do - put some parameters and structure around it via permitting or exception as other cities have done. Not everyone is going to want to go out and do this - that is understandable. But for those of us who want to (and many who are already doing so), we should not be prevented. Working with the city to put some structure around it would help neighbors and urban farmers.
Urban farming has many economic development pluses too, btw. Google it and do some reasearch or come to the Forum tonight and learn about small scale husbandry and urban farming.
I would hope that people who are seriously considering doing this research animal husbandry until their brains bleed. Chickens need more attention than just throwing some feed down and collecting eggs. Goats eat voraciously. And God help you if you have room for a cow.
Its the American way now. Knowingly break the rules, get cited for breaking rules, then insist that the rules be changed in your favor. Its the "everybody else is doing it" syndrome. Im sure there are other reasons (health/waste concerns) that this is not allowed in densly populated areas. There is pleny of rural land available for this if one wishes to pursue this lifestyle.
Quote from: Miss Fixit on October 06, 2011, 10:08:50 AM
Well, DuvalDude, one reason people from other cities see Jacksonville as backwards is that we DON'T embrace movements like urban agriculture. Cities that are universally viewed as being much more progressive (Portland and Atlanta, for example) have already enacted ordinances that allow this.
Im sorry I cant dig it. At all. As huge as Jacksonville is, there's plenty of room for agriculture on the westside. ( as one council person stated) Urban Gardens are cool. But when you start talking farm animals, I cant grasp that. Jacksonville is not only seen as backwards, its seen as backwoods and country.. Red neck and trailers parks. Now farms in the urban core? I dont know. Maybe I need to visit a city that actually allows this and my perception may change. I just cant see it, not for Jacksonville anyways. We already have an EXTREMELY country demeanor, and I fear that in JAcksonville (not speaking for other cities who allow this), that the urban core will be invaded by "urban farmer's". Im on the line with this one because of the type of city Jacksonville is. Other cities, like NYC, was never viewed as country, so them allowing urban farming is no big deal. However, with a city like Jacksonville with a national rep as the country or the sleep little town, urban farms would feed that perception. (IMO)
why don't you attend the forum tonight and info will be provided to you?
RMHoward is right. It's the same reason that you can't bury a dead relative or animal in your backyard, and why you have to pick up the dog doo. We've learned throughout time, and diseases, that in densely populated areas with underground city sewers, and areas in which run-off filtered through the ground or through drains which flow directly into drinking supplys (i.e. FL Aquifers), we could all become seriously ill. While one backyard chicken house may not be an issue, imagine all of Springfield, with it's houses only 10 feet apart from one another, with chickens and/or goats. What if someone were to get a chicken from an unreputable supplier and it had avian flu which infected all the other chickens in the area?
It all sounds romantic, but when you think of things in larger terms I'm sure you can see why the USDA was created and why there are regulations.
wait what? I can't bury a dead relative in my back yard? uh-oh. I need to borrow my neighbor's shovel - again.
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
Quote from: RMHoward on October 06, 2011, 11:16:10 AM
Its the American way now. Knowingly break the rules, get cited for breaking rules, then insist that the rules be changed in your favor. Its the "everybody else is doing it" syndrome. Im sure there are other reasons (health/waste concerns) that this is not allowed in densly populated areas. There is pleny of rural land available for this if one wishes to pursue this lifestyle.
your attitude on this is the typical american attitude that got us into the mess we are in.
There really isnt 'plenty' of rural land to exploit, RMHoward. Maybe there was back in the 1930s, but as history bore out, that land runs out pretty quick.
And the point isnt the availablity of land. Its the oil and resources necessary to get that produce and agricultural product to your table.
The amount of money we spend on oil and infrastructure in order to transport and prepare that food exceeds the value of the food itself, so perhaps you like the rising costs of food at the supermarket or being SOL if there is ever a breakdown in the transportation lines, but a lot of people don't.
And please spare us all the whole 'break rules and force people to conform' bs. How did those things become illegal in the first place, because they werent even a couple of decades ago. Changing the laws to conform to the wishes of the citizens is um....kindof what democracy is all about. So if you don't mind letting Americans continue to act like Americans and function within a democratic republic that functions by the rule of law, that would be awfully decent of you, im sure.
Duval Dude, I don't think there is anything wrong with being connected to the food in such a direct manner. Agri friendly and sustainable is the new chic and upscale anyways.
Now does that mean that without a few guidelines that Jacksonville won't succeed in turning even the poshest neighborhood into a scene out of petticoat junction, probably by erecting hogpens while code enforcement figures out a way to demolish all the libraries and hospitals, so your points are well taken.
Amanda, Sigma. Are there discussions in place on how to handles the health and code concerns of multiple urban ag developments in the same neighborhood?
Utterly rediculous response Stephen. I believe in following established rules/laws and believe most of them are in place for a reason. The fact is that these folks are in violation of city ordinances. The ordinances were put in place on advice of folks much smarter than you and a little smarter than me. Its illegal. Get over it. No lectures about Democracy from you, thanks. Democracy means electing officials to change the way things are done, not, disregarding existing laws. You would argue folks can pick and choose the laws they wish to follow?
LOL there was a time when African Americans and women couldn't vote - should we not have amended those laws?
We feed our animals very little feed - after all what they produce is what we eat. If we just bought a bunch of feed and fed them that then that kinda defeats the purpose of making a healthier product with less fossil fuels used.
There is more risk of contamination and germs and disease with products purchased from big agri-businesses. Those animals are kept in close quarters with little exposure to outside air or fresh food - dumping a bunch of feed at an animal is not a healthy diet and it is not what they were meant to eat. Not to mention the wasted crop land and fossil fuels. Eggs from hens who are exposed to fresh air and a natural diet are way more nutritious.
Why should people who live in the city not have the ability to grow their own healty food - trucking food in isn't sustainable nor is it healthy. Why should people who want to eat healthy be relocated to the country? No one is talking about roosters or large herds of goats.
Scale is everything. If this couldn't possibly work then why aren't other cities repealing their laws? Why are they amending them to allow more animals?
Scale and education are everything. Come to the forum and learn about small scale agriculture.
Well yea AVS, sure. Im all for amending laws. But, normally we amend them first, not break them. Not the other way around. Nice try though. Its the nature of arguments here to claim bigotry or racism to be the root of one's opinion when they arent the same as your own. You will fit right in.
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2011, 02:23:49 PM
Quote from: RMHoward on October 06, 2011, 12:33:58 PM
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2011, 12:19:53 PM
Quote from: RMHoward on October 06, 2011, 11:16:10 AM
Its the American way now. Knowingly break the rules, get cited for breaking rules, then insist that the rules be changed in your favor. Its the "everybody else is doing it" syndrome. Im sure there are other reasons (health/waste concerns) that this is not allowed in densly populated areas. There is pleny of rural land available for this if one wishes to pursue this lifestyle.
your attitude on this is the typical american attitude that got us into the mess we are in.
There really isnt 'plenty' of rural land to exploit, RMHoward. Maybe there was back in the 1930s, but as history bore out, that land runs out pretty quick.
And the point isnt the availablity of land. Its the oil and resources necessary to get that produce and agricultural product to your table.
The amount of money we spend on oil and infrastructure in order to transport and prepare that food exceeds the value of the food itself, so perhaps you like the rising costs of food at the supermarket or being SOL if there is ever a breakdown in the transportation lines, but a lot of people don't.
And please spare us all the whole 'break rules and force people to conform' bs. How did those things become illegal in the first place, because they werent even a couple of decades ago. Changing the laws to conform to the wishes of the citizens is um....kindof what democracy is all about. So if you don't mind letting Americans continue to act like Americans and function within a democratic republic that functions by the rule of law, that would be awfully decent of you, im sure.
Duval Dude, I don't think there is anything wrong with being connected to the food in such a direct manner. Agri friendly and sustainable is the new chic and upscale anyways.
Now does that mean that without a few guidelines that Jacksonville won't succeed in turning even the poshest neighborhood into a scene out of petticoat junction, probably by erecting hogpens while code enforcement figures out a way to demolish all the libraries and hospitals, so your points are well taken.
Amanda, Sigma. Are there discussions in place on how to handles the health and code concerns of multiple urban ag developments in the same neighborhood?
Utterly rediculous response Stephen. I believe in following established rules/laws and believe most of them are in place for a reason. The fact is that these folks are in violation of city ordinances. The ordinances were put in place on advice of folks much smarter than you and a little smarter than me. Its illegal. Get over it. No lectures about Democracy from you, thanks. Democracy means electing officials to change the way things are done, not, disregarding existing laws. You would argue folks can pick and choose the laws they wish to follow?
Well whether its rediculous or ridiculous I suppose is in the spell of the binder. The laws were established by another group of people that wanted things to change.
Not because they were smarter, or better, or better equipped to understand what they were doing, but for all the reasons, good and bad, venal and selfless, truthful and misquided that go into our local democracy.
These ordinances may or may not be in conflict with the principle that people should have the right to their own property and to pursue happiness. They may have been well crafted, they might not.
Apparently you believe that you have the right to simply take those rights away from people. I suppose you agree with this Adverse Possession nonsense as well? After all, its a law on the books right? It seems to condone stealing property, so why would we ever change that?
Absoluetley not for AP. Its a scruge. However, people will always find loopholes in otherwise well intentioned laws. Fix the laws. Dont break them.
No one is claiming bigotry or racism but you, good grief - I was just using previous laws that have been amended as an example. As humankind acquires knowledge we evolve and develop and so do our laws. That is how cultures and societies develop.
Again, over 700 cities in the US have amended their laws. It shouldn't be explored if it was something that wasn't working. But that isn't the case. There are lots of people in Jax who are keeping hens and goats "underground" we are asking the city to work with us to codify it, based on other cities amended codes, and put some parameters around it for those already doing it, no one is promoting a free for all
Amanda is challenging the way we think about the food we eat. Good for her and for all true urban pioneers
(http://i.imgur.com/roh8f.gif)
Well, alrighty then!
Back to urban agriculture.
I haven't decided whether or not I am cut out to raise chickens, much less goats. I do have friends and have had neighbors all over town - in San Marco, Avondale, and Mandarin as well as in Springfield - who keep chickens in their back yards. Without exception their chickens are cleaner and less of a nuisance than most of the dogs owned by other neighbors.
One of the great things about laws regulating urban agriculture is that they allow local government to create a framework under which they can monitor these activities to ensure that environmental concerns are addressed.
Someone mentioned concerns about numerous property owners with livestock on adjacent lots where houses are only ten feet apart. That's easily addressed in an ordinance - require minimum setbacks for livestock enclosures, minimum lot size, etc.
Require those who want to raise chickens to obtain a permit. Use the permit fees to facilitate inspections.
Not a big deal - sort of like requiring licenses and immunizations for dogs...
If its good enough for nyc, chicago and portland its good enough for Jacksonville.
The changed the law in Sarasota to allow raising hens in urban back yards. We can do it here. They put in a bunch of common sense limitations like "If it crows, it goes" and setbacks for the coops so neighbors wouldn't be bothered and a limit on the number of hens, etc. Things to keep any animals from being a bother to the neighbors.
Yes, all we are asking is for the city to set parameters. Mark and I are a big advocates of the permitting and permitting fees as well.
Quote from: stephendare on October 06, 2011, 02:41:09 PM
Quote from: RMHoward on October 06, 2011, 02:29:12 PM
Well yea AVS, sure. Im all for amending laws. But, normally we amend them first, not break them. Not the other way around. Nice try though. Its the nature of arguments here to claim bigotry or racism to be the root of one's opinion when they arent the same as your own. You will fit right in.
Quote from: RMHoward on June 29, 2011, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: finehoe on June 29, 2011, 02:29:54 PM
With the passage of the New York Marriage Equality Act, the number of gay couples in the U.S. who are eligible to marry has now doubled. Approximately 9 million Americans are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) -- slightly less than four percent of the population, according a recent study by Gary Gates of UCLA's Williams Institute. Approximately half of lesbians and gay men are members of same-sex couples, including an estimated 160,000 who are married, according to Gates' research. Nearly one in five same-sex couple households are raising children, compared to about 45 percent of heterosexual couple households, according to figures from the American Community Survey (ACS).
The list below, drawn from Gates' analysis of data from the ACS, shows the 15 metros that have the largest percentage of same-sex couples raising children under 18 years of age. The densest concentrations of such families are not necessarily in the places where you'd expect to find them. Especially surprising are the metros that don't make the cut -- like San Francisco and New York.
(http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/samesex.png)
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/06/top-metros-for-same-sex-couples-with-children/241113/?&utm_content=Google+Reader
Yet another list Jacksonville should not be proud to be near the top of.
Quote from: RMHoward on August 07, 2011, 03:27:16 PM
Well, since you asked. My definition of "leftist" especially as it pertains to this forum would be as follows: If a Republican said the sky was blue, a leftists would argue tirelessly that the sky was any other color than blue rather than be in the unenviable position of actually agreeing with the Republican. A leftists would rather see the US fail at any endeavor led by a Republican President, whether it be war, economic health, etc. rather than see any credit given to that President, or his party. A leftist will, in a heartbeat, call you a racist, homophobe or even a terrorist if you happen to disagree with this President's policies. A leftists hates the thought of our international borders (especially the one with Mexico) being closed to anyone who wants to cross into our country. A leftist will argue that: certainly the State of California should provide free college tuition (among other services) to the children of illegal immigrants just because they have been here forever, regardless of the fact that they 1. cant afford it, and 2. its wrong, 3. the taxpayers foot the bill 4. children of legal immigrants are not given this. A leftist will ignore the fact that unions in this country are out of control and hurting the competitiveness of our evil rich corporations. Leftists will insist on continued exorbinate union benefits regardless of whether companies, states, local govts can afford them or not. A leftist will insist on unending unemployment benefits for everyone. If someone suggest otherwise, then they brand them as being uncaring or heartless. A leftist never accepts responsibility for his/her actions/policies and is skilled at shifting blame and will not hesitate to do so (talk to W about this). There is no "the buck stops here" sign on current leftist desk. So, now you hopefully have an idea of what my definition of what a leftist actually is. Perhaps it doesnt match what you have been taught, or teach in your elitist circles. And as for the word regime, I meant it in the negative way that it came across. It fits nicely with the countless (how many) CZARs appointed by the talking suit that answer to no one and ride roughshod over all those evil wealthy corporations.
Quote from: RMHoward on July 20, 2010, 07:30:49 PM
Wow,
Obviously a bunch of (entitlement generation) liberals frequent this post. I'll buck the trend. Im sure most of you hate George Bush and love Obama (talk about second coming). I dont like Beck's delivery. But most of what he says is true IMO. Continue badmouthing the last administration with your blinders on if you wish. Believe it or not, a point will come when you wont be able to blame Bush for all of our woes.
Rick
Quote from: RMHoward on August 14, 2010, 12:07:18 PM
Stephen,
You can copy/paste all the "America is the Great Satan" liberal propaganda you wish while sipping on your grande latee at Star Bucks. Your immediate direction for me to move out of country is the reason for the "nasty little fellow" comment. I stand by that. You are. Not trying to impress you at all. We certainly wont agree on anything political for sure. You obviously subscribe to the "we got what we deserve" mentallity on 911. Those evil American oil companies operating in the Gulf surely warranted that response. Your mindset dictates that America kiss ass worldwide for the foreseeable future to make up for our past transgressions. See you in the history forum.
Rick
Quote from: RMHoward on June 30, 2011, 04:02:37 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2011, 07:24:18 PM
Quote from: RMHoward on June 29, 2011, 07:14:25 PM
Quote from: finehoe on June 29, 2011, 02:29:54 PM
With the passage of the New York Marriage Equality Act, the number of gay couples in the U.S. who are eligible to marry has now doubled. Approximately 9 million Americans are lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender (LGBT) -- slightly less than four percent of the population, according a recent study by Gary Gates of UCLA's Williams Institute. Approximately half of lesbians and gay men are members of same-sex couples, including an estimated 160,000 who are married, according to Gates' research. Nearly one in five same-sex couple households are raising children, compared to about 45 percent of heterosexual couple households, according to figures from the American Community Survey (ACS).
The list below, drawn from Gates' analysis of data from the ACS, shows the 15 metros that have the largest percentage of same-sex couples raising children under 18 years of age. The densest concentrations of such families are not necessarily in the places where you'd expect to find them. Especially surprising are the metros that don't make the cut -- like San Francisco and New York.
(http://www.creativeclass.com/creative_class/_wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/samesex.png)
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/06/top-metros-for-same-sex-couples-with-children/241113/?&utm_content=Google+Reader
Yet another list Jacksonville should not be proud to be near the top of.
Quite the contrary, although Im sure there are a few old bigots who feel otherwise.
Quite the contrary Stevie. Believing in man-woman unions raising children does not make you a bigot, it places you in agreement with the vast majority of Americans. This is similar to your slanted belief that when anyone disagrees with Obama, he must be a racist. You are predictably quick to call folks who disagree with you and your beliefs names like bigot, racist, etc. Its what you and your kind do.
really? My kind? Nothing to see here folks, no bigotry at all!
Well thanks Stephen. I see you are facinated by my postings. I dont regret any of them. Your skill at the "copy and post" thing is really out of this world, as are you opinions. Feel free to print and hang in your office.
Goats=pets with benefits
^ :D
Quote from: strider on October 06, 2011, 04:30:21 PM
Goats=pets with benefits
http://www.youtube.com/v/DWbU0x0NVh0? ;D
AVS's neighbors have no issue with the goats and chickens. She and her family take excellent care of them. They feed her family, and they are pets as well. Well cared for animals are not an issue. I live in the area, but not next door to AVS. I would, however, have no issue with them if I did. I may even be lucky enough to buy a few extra fresh eggs from them.
Great job done by Amanda, Kevin Songer and the panelists. I wasn't able to stay for the Q&A, but found the presentations to be informative and passionate. Thanks for putting the event together. And I also thank Lori Boyer for taking the time to educate herself firsthand on the issue.
I'd rather have Amanda's goats for neighbors than many of the PEOPLE I've lived next to in my life!
^^True dat! I would take Amanda's goats as neighbors any day over my neighbors grandkids!
Thanks for all the love an support! The Urban Ag Forum was a great success - more than twice the number of people we anticipated came out! And a huge thank you to Council person Lori Boyer who came out educate herself first hand on all the issues.
We will be breaking up all the volunteers into subcommittess to help draft some model legislation to go to the council people with. If you would like to volunteer for any of the subcommittees, send me an email and I will get you on the email list. avsearle@gmail.com
Quote from: Debbie Thompson on October 06, 2011, 09:50:37 PM
AVS's neighbors have no issue with the goats and chickens. She and her family take ezxcellent care of them. They feed her family, and they are pets as well. Well cared for animals are not an issue. I live in the area, but not next door to AVS. I would, however, have no issue with them if I did. I may even be lucky enough to buy a few extra fresh eggs from them.
I am sure AVS runs a clean operation and it is great they have neighbors who approve and do not take issue with the animals... But for the sake of discussion... Lets change the circumstances slightly.
MY neighbor is not very good about cleaning up. On hot days the stench of rotton eggs gently wafts onto my porch. My neighbors are not very attentive about properly composting the chicken and goat manure. While cooking on my barbecue the other day a swarm of flies came from my neighbors yard forcing me indoors. I have tried to talk to them but am told to mind my own business.
I too am of the belief that we SHOULD be allowed to raise limited livestock in our own backyards.
I'm not an "Urban Farmer" but I am growing a vegetable garden and raising chickens in my suburban backyard. Suprisingly, the chickens (have 3 hens and a rooster) have been the most enjoyable! My three boys love them to death and have a blast playing with them in the yard. They're very tame and let you pet them and pick them up (both the chickens and the kids). They keep my yard fertilized and free of bugs at the same time.
I buy a 50 pound bag of feed for them about every 2 1/2 - 3 months which costs about $20. They're amazingly cheap to maintain once you build them a nice coop. I'm getting three eggs a day right now wich feeds my family 2 big breakfasts over the weekend and I'm able to share some of the fresh eggs with friends and neighbors.
If you do the math, the cost of the raising/maintaining the chickens is about equal or slightly less than the cost of buying an 18 pack of eggs every week for a year. Plus I get 2 'extra' eggs a week since my three hens are all laying an egg a day. Despite the cost, they are great pets and produce MUCH MUCH healthier eggs (and meat if you chose to tell the kids that they are eating their pet chicken for dinner!)
Also, based on the size of my veggie garden I'm able to plant enough to have fresh vegetables 3-5 months out of the year. That is a massive savings over shopping at the farmers markets or grocery stores for that same time period.
Bridge Troll, in the circumstance you discuss, they could be cited. There would be rules about care of the animals. And a well-maintained compost pile doesn't stink. If it did, again, the neighbors could be cited.
Bridgetroll, I think it is the same of someone not properly caring for a cat or dog, parakeet, parrot or whatever. If hens are legalized and not properly cared for then the city should step in. This is where I think permitting and permitting fees can help.
FYI: eggs last for about 3-4 months. Eggs in grocery stores are about 3 months old when the consumer pruchases them. If your neighbor has rotten eggs then they are many months old.
And Debbie is absolutley right, a compost bin that is properly cared for does not stink. It sounds like they have to much nitrogen in there. They need to add some leaves and "brown"/carbon stuff to offset it and get it properly balanced. The Extension office offers lots of composting classes and information.
Quote from: avs on October 07, 2011, 11:59:11 AM
Bridgetroll, I think it is the same of someone not properly caring for a cat or dog, parakeet, parrot or whatever. If hens are legalized and not properly cared for then the city should step in. This is where I think permitting and permitting fees can help.
FYI: eggs last for about 3-4 months. Eggs in grocery stores are about 3 months old when the consumer pruchases them. If your neighbor has rotten eggs then they are many months old.
And Debbie is absolutley right, a compost bin that is properly cared for does not stink. It sounds like they have to much nitrogen in there. They need to add some leaves and "brown"/carbon stuff to offset it and get it properly balanced. The Extension office offers lots of composting classes and information.
Thanks AVS. Again... my hypothetical was only used for discussion. I compost myself and have no issues... But am also well aware that improperly maintained "compost" piles can produce a foul stench. You mention permitting and citing for improperly cared for urban farms. I agree. Hopefully the fees would pay for enforcement.
Here is a link to the first part of the forum for anyone who wants to watch it
http://www.youtube.com/embed/iaQa1VQGtG4 (http://www.youtube.com/embed/iaQa1VQGtG4)
The city allows four or five dogs, that is a lot of useless feces and urine, not to mention that thousands of feral cats. Ever have feral cats spray your house or fence UGHH. Kids know how clean chickens are, when given the choice to pick up after the dogs or the chickens, the chickens win with the child every time!
The reality is the food you buy in the store, blessed by the FDA is NOT safer than the food you lovingly care for and grow at your own home. Here is a list of outbreaks compiled from the CDC who began tracking in the 1970's (notice the corporate farms):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foodborne_illness_outbreaks_in_the_United_States
The list is getting longer within each year.....
No one is advocating starting a pig farm downtown! But we should all be concerned about our food prospects...just look at this article:
http://radio.foxnews.com/2011/10/06/judge-americans-dont-have-right-to-eat-drink-what-the-want/
"Wisconsin judge has ruled that Americans do not have a fundamental right to drink milk from their own cow, nor do they have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice."
While raising chickens or goats may not be everyone's ideal of nirvana, and yes a lousy neighbor sucks all the way around- everyone should be concerned with the above ruling. What is next? Delmonte may not want you to grow your own peas, after all you live in the city and it is dirty and contaminated....
Oh wait, Delmonte and Monsanto already did ! H.R.875 - Food Safety Modernization Act of 2009 has pretty much made it against the law for you to grow some squash in your back yard and trade it with your neighbor for some of their okra. Now will the government come crashing into your house at 4AM to arrest you for doing this...probably not. But then again the state of WI did take families to court over drinking the milk of the cow they owned.....
Drive through El Paso lately? Check out the cattle holding corrals, knee deep in urine and feces.. Yummy! I guess that explains the huge list of meat illness outbreaks this year. In fact a huge outbreak E.coli at a Minnesota Malt O Meal plant was traced back to dairy farmers boots working part time at the plant. Commercial farms growing on a large scale have to use massive amounts of fertilizer and pesticides all draining into our water table. The FDA says that food is safe, I beg to differ! The back yard gardner can use all natural composted chicken manure along with homemade compost to grow their food with no added hormones or antibiotics because it is small scale and healthy for the animals and plants themselves. It tastes better, is healthier (for the food and the consumer of the same), and is the ultimate in recycling.
People have to stop thinking if they buy it at the grocery store it is safe and environmentally sound. It just plain isn't true. It isn't safe, it isn't healthy, and it unless it comes from the produce section it most likely has some type of corn product or byproduct hidden in it.
Don't have a right to grow our own food - that is a basic freedom being taken away and put into the hands of corporations. This is very scary.
And speaking of corporate farms. I saw a new story about migrant workers, and how they are finding fewer jobs with the soybean farms now. Why? You won't believe it. Soybeans have now been bred with ROUND UP weedkiller bred right in to them. ROUND UP is part of the plant, so weeds don't grow in the field. So every time you eat these soybeans, you are eating ROUND UP!! And independent farmers who don't want to plant these beans are being run out of town on a rail.
I buy my butter unsalted because salted butter can be made with cream about to go bad, and the salt masks the off flavor. On the way to Colorado from Oklahoma, we drove through Dodge City, Kansas. You could smell the feed lots before you got to them. Cows standing knee deep in cow doo, and being shot up with antibiotics so they wouldn't get sick from it. Chickens who spend their entire lives in tiny cages inside.
As long as everything is well cared for, and the number of animals is limited to a reasonable number, I don't understand why there's an issue with it.
Here's another interesting article from a recent Folio Weekly...Grey Area Gardens.
http://www.folioweekly.com/documents/folio0920wkl007.pdf
Quote from: uptowngirl on October 10, 2011, 10:23:18 AM
http://radio.foxnews.com/2011/10/06/judge-americans-dont-have-right-to-eat-drink-what-the-want/
"Wisconsin judge has ruled that Americans do not have a fundamental right to drink milk from their own cow, nor do they have a fundamental right to produce and consume the foods of their choice."
This appears to be a case of too much government regulation.
This also appears to be a case of the judge partaking of his own home made fermented cheese.
IMO, if you don't agree with Urban or Suburban farming (on a small scale) you should watch a documentary called "Food Inc.".
That'll get you thinking. ;)
Quote from: Jason on October 11, 2011, 05:43:33 PM
IMO, if you don't agree with Urban or Suburban farming (on a small scale) you should watch a documentary called "Food Inc.".
That'll get you thinking. ;)
+ 1000
And if you are really concerned about milk ....check out this picture, it is worth a thousand words posted here.
http://www.urbanfarmonline.com/sustainable-living/eat-local/raw-versus-pasteurized.aspx
When we lived in Claremore, Oklahoma, it was legal to sell raw milk as long as you went to the dairy to buy it. They could not deliver it or sell it in local stores. We lived right near Swann's Dairy. They would milk the cows every afternoon in a milking shed with a glass front. My kids were small and loved to walk down and watch. They would attach the milking machine to the cow's udders, and you could see the milk flow down the clear pipe directly to the stainless steel drum in the store. Some was made into cream and butter sold in the store. At the end of each day, the unsold milk was poured out.When you bought raw milk in sterilized glass jugs at Swann's, you knew the milk was same-day fresh.
Still, I hadn't bought raw milk before, so I called the health department and spoke to a local inspector. He told me he had sampled raw milk from Swann's and found far, far fewer bacteria in it than in the "sell by date" gallons of pasteruized milk that had been sitting on store shelves for a week or more.
That sold me. As long as we lived in Claremore, we drank delicious fresh raw milk from Swann's and bought fresh cream, butter and cottage cheese.
Mmmm..raw milk...the thing you can make with it..i've got chicks pipping this morning...looking for a home for a boystrous Serama roo...anyone interested?...this rain makes everything grow so well i'm lovin it...fall garden is in and working...still harvesting loads of summer stuff thought..i gave out 20 lbs of eggplant yesterday"they arent my favorit"...but i love to bloom and lots of people love them...i thinks its funny how some have stated what great soil we have..um...they must be lost or had thier yard brought in from somewhere else...our soil sucks and it need tons and tons of compost...just sandy sandy...but root crops love that sand which mean beautiful carrots and such..i make a mean carrot basil and goat cheese salad,,ymmy.
Raw milk is great and has soooo many benefits, including helping get rid of allergies, more vitamins and minerals, more beneficial probiotics for your gut. There is also evidence of helping with ADD and other illnesses. The movie at 5 Points Theater this weekend was great, Farmageddon. It discusses regulations and health benefits too.
In FL raw milk can be sold but it has to be advertised as for pet consumption only. Pasteurization only became necessary with the industiralization of food. Milk is mass produced in unsanitary conditions and then has to be transported all over the country. So pasteuriztion makes the milk last longer. But if you have your own local source, and you know that source is keeping their animals in a natural way, and you are receiving the milk as fresh as can be, it is more healthy for you to drink raw milk.
The regulations are there to protect corporate dairy farmers (they can be local operations, but they sell to specific corporations), the regulations do not protect the consumer really. If the regulations were there to protect the consumer, then they would protect our health because raw milk is healthier. The way the system is set up, the middle man (the corporation) benefits because we are forced to purchase from them (they pruchase from a dairy farmer/industrial milk producer) instead of having the choice to purchase raw milk directly from a farmer. Instead of regulating the industrial food suppliers the majority of the regulations hinder small producers and make access to raw milk difficult. The government is protecting the corporate dairy interests instead of small scale local producers and consumer interests.
Grassroots and Native Sun sell raw milk for those interested, for animal consupmtion only of course :)
Garden Guy, I would have said yes to a hen but already have a boystrous roo of my own. :)
I have three Black Australorps (Orpingtons) and one that is speckeled black and gray. The black ones have georgous feathers with a teal-ish shine to them.
I'm thinking of letting the hens brood a couple eggs in the spring to see if we can get just a couple more hatchlings.
Well, if you can't have chickens in Dinsmore what hope is there for Springfield?
http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2011-10-24/story/chicken-fight-unfolds-jacksonville-courtroom (http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/2011-10-24/story/chicken-fight-unfolds-jacksonville-courtroom)
Well, they also had like 90 chickens, that's not a small family operation.
Backyard "Winter Greens" have morphed through the summer to Jack In The Beanstalk 'tree' with evidence of further vibrant go and grow.
meanwhile it snow falls in Denver.
After all,Florida is 'strategic' conducive to Ag,a point that will even emerge as central State conservation lands protection empowerment theme.
Why not too our own back yards,public spaces where appropriate?