Metro Jacksonville

What's wrong with FDOT?  When will Ananth Prasad and his crew realize that they are sending taxpayers into further debt by continuing to push new roadway projects that will never pay for themselves?


Still no deal on Wekiva Parkway

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QuoteAnother page of the calendar apparently will turn without a deal to build the $1.8 billion Wekiva Parkway.

Officials with the state and Orlando's main road-building agencies â€" who first promised an agreement in August and then September â€" are reluctant to discuss specific holdups.

Last month, they said they were waiting on a $300,000 study on how many cars and trucks might ride on the toll road that would run from near Apopka in Orange County, through Lake and Seminole counties, and link up with Interstate 4 by Sanford.

That study came out last week and it confirmed what many experts had predicted: the Wekiva would not draw enough toll-paying customers to pay for itself for decades.

full article: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/breakingnews/os-no-deal-wekiva-20110926,0,665819.story

The population of Apopka has exploded, and they're demanding this.

Now, silly me I know, but I'd ask WTF they were thinking when they bought a house in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture? My natural inclination would be to let it serve as an example of why that development pattern is unsustainable.

Wow....FDOT and every other agency down there has been fighting for this road for at least a decade....there were some pretty sensitive negotiations regarding the Wekiva Springs area.....I'm a bit surprised they had never done the toll ridership/revenue analysis.

That said, at this point, they've built 80% of the beltway/ring around Orlando....the Wekiva Parkway is the last leg....so from a connectivity standpoint, it should be built.

From an asphalt sales standpoint, it should be built.

If it doesnt make economic sense, they should pass. Nobody is gonna die if 429 doesn't tie into I-4 in Sanford. With that said, I fully expect this road to be built. Its easier to burn $2billion here, $2billion there when you're playing with other people's money.

I would tell you that they should have passed on building most of the ring road....but it is done now and this is the missing piece.

What I learned this morning is that FDOT has done several studies in the past...and all with the same result.

The reality is that several roads on Florida's Turpike system don't make enough $ to cover their project costs....but the state makes enough $ on other roads in the syetm to offset the "dogs".

Quote from: stephendare on September 27, 2011, 08:02:57 AM
In fact, if you think about it, since weve already started building skyscrapers, we might as well finish the job off

other than Berkman II, would you build only part of a skyscaper?

or better yet, how about building only a portion of the Skyway system...then see what happens 20 years later when folks complain about ridership

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 27, 2011, 09:31:09 AM
The reality is that several roads on Florida's Turpike system don't make enough $ to cover their project costs....but the state makes enough $ on other roads in the syetm to offset the "dogs".

Reality would also suggest that this is money that could be used to offset the maintenance of existing roads instead of adding to the problem.

Quote from: tufsu1 on September 27, 2011, 09:33:14 AM

Quote from: stephendare on September 27, 2011, 08:02:57 AM
In fact, if you think about it, since weve already started building skyscrapers, we might as well finish the job off

other than Berkman II, would you build only part of a skyscaper?

In the private sector, master plans are rarely built out as originally sketched on paper due to economic and market reality.  It's time we really start looking at some of our transportation boondoggles in a similar light if we want our taxdollars to help improve the average resident's quality of life.

Just tossing it out, but there are several buildings in DT that were designed as larger structures but never fully developed as engineered due to economic reality.  Two that immediately come to mind are the Greenleaf & Crosby and the old Rosenblum's buildings.

Greenleaf & Crosby
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Designed as a larger 12 story building but only one half of the tower was built due to the Great Depression.


Rosenblum's Downtown
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This one was also designed to be a midrise.  However, private sector economic reality ended up with the base only being constructed.

In short, if it doesn't make sense fiscally, don't do it.

It's kind of bizarre that planners are obsessed with completing beltways when they aren't even meant to be used that way. Driving in a complete circle around a city isn't really the goal, is it?

A 20 mile gap in I-95 would considered be a "missing "link" because it would undermine the purpose of the entire roadway.

Here are a few expressways/freeways that were stopped due to public opposition.  Imagine, what these places would be like today, if those highways were constructed:

Vieux Carré Riverfront Expressway (I-310) - Would have run through New Orleans' French Quarter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vieux_Carr%C3%A9_Riverfront_Expressway

I-70 Baltimore - Would have run through DT Baltimore connecting with I-83 near the Inner Harbor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_70_in_Baltimore,_Maryland

Mount Hood Freeway - This planned Robert Moses freeway ended up being canceled with its funds shifted to construct LRT in Portland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Hood_Freeway

I-95/I-66/I-266, etc. in Washington, DC - All eventually canceled due to public opposition against ripping new highways through established neighborhoods.  Funds for several of these canceled projects were redirected to construct the metro.  I don't think anyone today would make an argument that central DC would be better off if I-95 was built through it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_395_(District_of_Columbia-Virginia)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeway_and_expressway_revolts

Quote from: ChriswUfGator on September 27, 2011, 07:52:03 AM
The population of Apopka has exploded, and they're demanding this.

Now, silly me I know, but I'd ask WTF they were thinking when they bought a house in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture? My natural inclination would be to let it serve as an example of why that development pattern is unsustainable.

As one who lives in a subdivision 20 miles from nowhere that used to be a cow pasture, I'd call it Nirvanna. Noun/nərˈvänə/1. A transcendent state in which there is neither suffering, desire, nor sense of self, and the subject is released from the effects of karma.  2. A state of perfect happiness; an ideal or idyllic place. That said, the person that moves into such a place without the desire to use local, small town businesses, is a fool.  From my perch about 5 miles south of the east end of the Shand's bridge, I can shop in Green Cove Springs, and buy groceries at WGV or Orangedale. Moving to Apopka, Oviedo, Bithlo, Howey-In-The-Hills, Ocoee, Sorrento etc. with  a plan to do all of your shopping at Milenimum or Seminole Mall, is dumb as a box of rocks.

If anyone on MJ would benefit from the convienience of the Outer Beltway, it's me, but I remain firmly opposed to the whole project with a single exception. The only redeeming value of our Beltway is a replacement of the Shand's Bridge. The bridge is quite narrow making it unsafe for auto and truck traffic and was built so low it has damaged a ship builder in Palatka. Highway 16 is already 4 lanes, so west of the bridge to US-17 already has a perfect right-of-way through the old NAS Lee Field, Navy Base. Under no condition should this highway wrap around the south side of Lee Field, doing so would kill the best location for corporate and private avation south of Jacksonville.

Having lived in Heathrow, one of the biggest problems with the Wekiva Beltway is the Wekiva Wilderness Preserves. The preserves represent one of the last major concentrations of Florida Black Bears and big cats in Central Florida and blowing a hole through them is criminal. This road will need to have elevated animal underpasses from the Wekiva River to Mount Plymouth at no small expense. Typical of Florida's blindness to anything other then another highway, over half of the proposed route is paralell to a state owned abandoned railroad. These tracks ran from Sanford-Mount Plymouth-Sorrento-Mount Dora, how much better would a DMU/RDC commuter train car be then a massive turnpike? As FDOT and it's consultants slice and dice away at whatever is left of the REAL Florida somebody needs to drawa a line in the sand. We stopped a horrible barge canal from completely ruining the OCKLAWAHA River, now perhaps it's time to stop these beltways.

Maybe Tufsu just likes to go around in circles?

Even if someone likes to ride around in circles, the Western Beltway (429) and the Greenway (417) don't directly connect in Osceola County.  417 ties into I-4 near Celebration and Disney.  429 hits I-4 a few miles south near Champions Gate and Reunion Resort.

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Orlando-Orange County Expressway Authority (OOCEA) 2030 master plan

This is the turnpike authority's  next dream - the Heartland Parkway cutting across Florida's last remaining agricultural lands and wildlife corridors and the Heartland Coast to Coast - the ideal opening of the rest of Florida for development. Road builders know two things - concrete and asphalt.

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It's pretty funny looking at that map for anyone who spent time on SR 60, US 17 and US 27.  Significant stretches of these rural highways are still two lane roads.  However, people out there believe that to accommodate population growth and congestion that doesn't exist, that we must spend billions carving up the entire state with new expressways that will never pay for themselves.  Completely insane.

Btw, this stuff keeps coming back like a bad rash.  I remember in the early 1990s, there was a push to build the East/West Expressway between the Polk Parkway (which was still on paper then) and Lake Wales.  That thing died but now its basically back as the Central Polk Parkway, which would also be the northern leg of the Heartland Parkway.

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Wekiva sure made the conservation community,citizens jump through hoops.
Such procedures always commence with a sense of confidence.

It's really easy to ascertain the dire need for this super slab by looking at the density from the air. Actually Lake, a east-west proposal from West Palm - Sebring - Bartow - Tampa, built as a multimodal road/rail could easily supplant the stupid HSR proposal that bit the dust under Scott. As far as the north - south route from roughly Haines City to Ft. Myers? The crazy part is these roads are already there and upgrades could easily be done with constructive widening, using 'expressway construction' only where they would need to bypass towns, or for major interchanges. The State of California has several freeways in the San Joaquin Valley with stop lights on them.

OCKLAWAHA

It's all about "Growth"

"...Deal Reached..." per Orlando Sentinel. 

What's that?  About $70 million per mile? 


http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/os-expressway-board-snyder-20111114,0,716459.story

$1.8 Billion for more of this...

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Sounds great!

All I see in your photos is jobs, freedom and more money making opportunities. What's your problem with job creation, Lunican? ;)

Think of all the tow trucks, fire fighters, police, lawyers, medical bills, car repair, and cleanup crews... It's utopia.

hey...jobs are jobs...no need to parse this further!

Did anyone catch this in the article?  The State already admits this roadway will be in the red for the majority of our lifetimes....

QuoteA breakthrough came during the weekend, when Snyder and Florida Department of Transportation officials decided the Orlando agency would build and own about six miles in Orange and a short stretch in Lake, while the state would be responsible for the remaining 18 to 19 miles.

Key to the arrangement was the authority agreeing to pay nearly $230 million it owes FDOT during the next 12 years. FDOT had been loaning the authority between $8 million and $10 million annually during the past quarter-century for operating and maintaining some tollbooths and portions of toll roads owned by the state.

"It's a very favorable agreement. It will be tweaked a bit," said expressway Chairman Walter Ketcham.

FDOT Secretary Ananth Prasad said getting the authority to write a check for as much as $20 million annually through 2024 would allow the state to pay off the bonds it would sell to pay for the road, which is unlikely to attract enough traffic to pay for itself for three decades or more.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/orange/os-expressway-board-snyder-20111114,0,716459.story

Wow. Considering a chunk of this project penetrates environmentally sensitive land, they won't even get the ad valorum tax  revenue generating sprawl development that follows massive highway construction.  What happened to being fiscally conservative with people's tax dollars?

And here's some more info. on Houston's third beltway

http://dc.streetsblog.org/2011/11/10/meet-the-rick-perry-donor-who-runs-texas-dot/

This says it all:  He’s a real estate developer occupying a public office that gives him enormous power to shape the built environment.
In his public life, Holmes is a well-known pillar of the Texas conservative establishment.

http://www.wekivaparkway.com/alerts.php?d=107&p=1# (http://www.wekivaparkway.com/alerts.php?d=107&p=1#)

APOPKA - After a brief ribbon cutting noting the long journey to develop this groundbreaking project, the Central Florida Expressway Authority on July 27 opened it's first five miles of the Wekiva Parkway. CFX began opening the lanes from the State Road 429 Connector Road to Kelly Park Road at 3 p.m., with all lanes open by 3:30 p.m.

Toll collection will begin on these sections at 5 a.m. on Friday, July 28, 2017. Some work will be ongoing to finish these sections, with lane closures and other traffic impacts continuing to be needed. Stay tuned here and follow the project on Facebook and Twitter for real-time updates.