Metro Jacksonville

Historic Ford Plant to be Demolished?

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1477868696_fXS8nhG-L.jpg)

The plant's current owner is claiming the building will be demolished if not converted to a cruise port.  With this in mind, American Institute of Architects Jacksonville is scheduling a public tour of the historic property for the afternoon of Oct. 8, 2011.

Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-sep-historic-ford-plant-to-be-demolished

Is this building not on the national historic registry?

No, its not on the national register.

Regional Partners, VISIT JACKSONVILLE! We are developing an extortion real estate list that unless taxpayer money is used. We aren't playing.
We are wrapping up Shipyards? 2010-604
                              Landmar? 2011-560
                              Palms Fish Camp, Palms Fish Camp, Palms Fish Camp?

Radically Improved Access to Downtown via the St. Johns River our American Heritage River. I'm IN.
 

Quote from: thelakelander on September 22, 2011, 05:35:57 AM
No, its not on the national register.

I imagine it would be difficult to get it on the registry without the owners consent.

In some ways, this seems like an idle threat.  Would they just tear it down out of spite?  Or just because it is too expensive to maintain?  With so much vacant land in that area, there don't seem to be many other uses lined up waiting to jump on the land.

But I am all for working with the owner to determine other potential uses for the building.  How viable is a cruise terminal at this location?  Isn't the Dames Pt Bridge a major obstacle?

It could probably work as a terminal for smaller ships.  However, JAXPORT isn't interested in the site because the larger ships can't get under the Dames Point Bridge.  If the building came down, considering the site is waterfront, it could probably be used for a small shipyard, barge facility or private shipping terminal.

Or perhaps Ford comes back to the place and starts making these:

(http://i53.tinypic.com/5z1rpw.jpg)

http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/09/22/ford-builds-bicycle/ (http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2011/09/22/ford-builds-bicycle/)

This would be a shame. Would there be no way to use the location for shipping with the building still there?

If it goes down, it will most likely be because the owner doesn't want to pay the costs to restore it or deal with the liabilities of it remaining onsite in its current state.

Why not reach out to Wayne Wood and the Jacksonville Historical Society to work on saving it.  If it is landmarked, major tax credits would be available.  When are we going to stop tearing down what makes us unique?  There's not much left.

Who is planning on touring the building on Oct 8th?  It would be nice to show up in numbers and demonstrate community support.

I had no idea this was in discussion to make it a cruise terminal. How far along is that process? Have they given up completely on Mayport?

Quote from: dougskiles on September 22, 2011, 09:54:20 AM
Who is planning on touring the building on Oct 8th?  It would be nice to show up in numbers and demonstrate community support.

Right now, I'm planning to attend.  I wouldn't mind attending the modern architecture event as well but my son has a football game that morning.

Quote from: Dapperdan on September 22, 2011, 09:59:14 AM
I had no idea this was in discussion to make it a cruise terminal. How far along is that process? Have they given up completely on Mayport?

I thought the cruise port terminal idea had died because of the Dames Point Bridge clearance issue.  Nevertheless, a building with all that open space could be used for a variety of things.  Richmond, CA turned their old ford plant into a mixed use center in the middle of an industrial area.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/791039293_GpmiG-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/791039317_jeycb-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/791039290_MWyvh-M.jpg)

http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2010-mar-ford-assembly-plant-comes-back-to-life

1. Ford Plant Restoration........ To a model A vintage assembly plant?  I don't see anything there that looks like a modern factory building built to a 120mph wind load, large missle impact. Although wire glass does have it's advantages.
2. Ford Plant Strucutre........ AIA review is nice but the Structural engineer's report will make or break the project. Some of the foundations have failed. Parking loading is relative light. Factory loading is four times more than parking.  Most development reviews, ie condos and others have been non-feasable.
3. Location........how long do you think it wll be before the majority of people in Jax would want to go to Tallyrand?

4. Palm Fish Camp....... Leave the resturant building vacant. Putting a resturant in there will ruin a good boat ramp. True they added additional trailer parking but it isn't big enough for the  traffic and the layout is bad. 

I missed the first tour, gonna have to miss this one as well as I'll be out of town.  Doug, take lots of pics for me!

Quote from: Dapperdan on September 22, 2011, 09:59:14 AM
I had no idea this was in discussion to make it a cruise terminal. How far along is that process? Have they given up completely on Mayport?

No, and JAXPORT still has the land there. The Ford plant site was in discussion several years ago, but it was ruled out because the taller cruise ships can't make it under the Dames Point Bridge. If terminal goes anywhere, it will most assuredly be at Mayport, despite the wishes of the community organization there.

The news recently has featured articles about new freight terminals in Talleyrand (Keystone is an example.) Water borne cargo these days typically involves bulk materials and containers.  If a freight terminal operator were to buy the property, the old building would be a hindrance.

The cruise port is still a possibility.  Jacksonville will never be the kind of big league market that will attract the new megaships one might see in places like Miami.  In my opinion, the best use for the building would be as a CASINO:  1.  No NIMBY problem.  It is in nobody's backyard.  2.  Gorgeous location with great highway access. 3.  No real competition.  4.  Would create lots of jobs.  5.  Would stimulate development of hotels, restaurants, gas stations, etc. between the building and downtown.

I will be attending, so we will cover both tour events on the site and try to answer some of these questions :)

QuoteJacksonville will never be the kind of big league market that will attract the new megaships one might see in places like Miami. 

I don't agree.
Jacksonville was at the forefront of the invention of the container revolution.  However, ports are a capital-intensive industry and someone made the decision a long time ago to focus on ro/ro and bulk cargo and the port infrastructure fell by the wayside.  Houston heavily invested in themselves and what you get is what you see today.

Jax won't be Norfolk, but I think it could certainly beat out Savannah(I REALLY believe that)... and it has WAYYYY more logistical and navigational advantages(once Mile Point gets fixed) than Miami.  The fact that there are Pacific shipping companies here is NO small coincidence.

QuoteIn my opinion, the best use for the building would be as a CASINO:

I wish downtown had a river full of gambling boats like St Louis, but that's really just a pipe dream. B/c city council didnt have the balls to confront the illegal 'sweepstakes' companies... we only have one way for paramutual facilities in Duval County now and they just opened up shop in Regency.  Unless state law changes(and frankly that would not be fair to the reservations), a casino just isn't in the cards.

QuoteIf a freight terminal operator were to buy the property, the old building would be a hindrance.

Depending on what kind of cargo... but the buidling could easily become short-term wharehousing facilities(cold or dry) for a specific-type of terminal.  There is a big market and opportunity here for an on-dock cold storage terminal for instance.

@fieldafm...My megaship comment pertained to cruise ships. A huge casino complex is being built in the Omni area north of downtown Miami.  I don't know the details of any tribal involvement, but I understand it is backed by big money from Malaysia.     http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/14/2407173/genting-unveils-plan-for-miami.html   

Quote from: johnny_simpatico on September 22, 2011, 01:32:36 PM
@fieldafm...My megaship comment pertained to cruise ships. A huge casino complex is being built in the Omni area north of downtown Miami.  I don't know the details of any tribal involvement, but I understand it is backed by big money from Malaysia.     http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/09/14/2407173/genting-unveils-plan-for-miami.html   

If that thing gets approved by the state it's going to bleed the tribes bad. I would expect some serious contention will be forthcoming. I also like the quote from the rich Malaysian dude that Miami isn't a "real city" until it gets huge resorts, compared to the stunning metropolis that is Orlando.

I agree with Fieldafm, our logistical postion on the east coast puts us in the catbird seat for dominating the deep southern ports. Our new cargo terminals are the only ones on the coast sitting on real estate leases with PRIVATE INVESTMENT DOLLARS creating and owning the facilities. Being a 'landlord port' puts us on par with Long Beach, Seattle, Los Angeles, etc. A right coast port doing it just like the left coast. In time we could see Jacksonville pass Savannah, Charleston, and even threaten Norfolks position.  For the past two years, the Port of Jacksonville has handled more loaded TEUs, or 20-foot-equivalent container units, than any other state port. The Port of Jacksonville handled about 705,000 TEUs in 2010, which is about 22,000 more than Miami handled, according to Journal of Commerce.  Jacksonville already has an operating Asian Terminal with another right around the corner, nobody else is close to such a deal. Finally the fix for Jaxport's longer channel and rail infrastructure is only 20 Million more then the 780 Million dollar fix for channel and rail in Miami. Unlike Miami, for that amount, Florida gets a port with nearly unlimited expansion possibilities.

"Jacksonville is not the kind of market that will ever attract the mega-ships." Oh contraire...  It isn't about the local market as much as it is about the economy of running a 1,400 passenger ship as opposed to running a 6,000 passenger ship.  Both types of ships have similar port fees, and fuel, crew costs are not that much more for the mega-ship. The market reach for Jacksonville is found at the International Airport and Amtrak Station which = UNLIMITED. The couple in Des Moines, Dubuque or Danville, wishing to cruise to Curacao, Cartagena or Cozumel, is concerned more about how close the airport is to the ship as they are if it sails from Tampa or Tampico.

I think in the transportation industry today we are well into the Autumn of the mid-size cruise ships, the future will IMO be marked by a trend towards mega-ships and small ship cruises.  The small ships already call on DOWNTOWN Jacksonville all year long, its the lack of ability to handle the mega-ships that scuttles our chances of remaining in the game. In short, JAXPORT absolutely needs to get on with the Mayport or the newer Nichols Creek sites.

Lastly, and in the meanwhile, Mayor Brown could send a strong message to the industry and give downtown a boost by creating a "Visit Jacksonville" welcome station on the waterfront between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt. Let's get creative and make that little office double as a small cruise ship terminal.  Thermal glass over looking the river, the ability to board passengers directly off the ships or Riverwalk, visitors videos, brochures, JSO, TSA (on call), Ambassadors, WIFI, free OJ and Coffee, in short a MULTI USE, Joint cruise terminal/welcome station.

OCKLAWAHA

+1
Add to that if we can have  pocket parks. We can have pocket piers. Still seeking a city council member as a sponsor for such a project.
Once identified it would then be a great project to work with FIND.
If there is any other county that is reading this and your in Clay, St. Johns, Nassau, Putnam, Flagler, or any other county that is a member of FIND send me a pm. We'll Make It Happen. Its not happening in Duval county.

Use the River. And the Ford Plant is on the River. 

QuoteThe market reach for Jacksonville is found at the International Airport and Amtrak Station which = UNLIMITED.

Agreed.  Most of the cruise passengers leaving Jacksonville are from around a 12 hour radius, but they also get quite a bit of international tourists that board here.

QuoteThe small ships already call on DOWNTOWN Jacksonville all year long, its the lack of ability to handle the mega-ships that shoots us in the scuttles our chances of remaining in the game. In short, JAXPORT absolutely needs to get on with the Mayport or the newer Nichols Creek sites.

I agree.  Three small cruise lines already call on Jacksonville and moore in front of the Hyatt on the city's bulkhead as Ock's picture depicts.  The reality of the situation is that the large luxury cruise liners have an obstacle in the Dames Point Bridge.  They need to be berthed at a cruise terminal on the East side of the bridge.  Both the small and large ships both do well calling on Jacksonville, but both need dedicated facilities to grow.

Quotecreating a "Visit Jacksonville" welcome station on the waterfront between the Acosta Bridge and the Hyatt.

That's really an interesting thought Ock.  Really interesting.  The city would still need to have adequate berthing space for the private and charter vessels that call on downtown from time to time... but that's really a great idea.  Currently several entities serve the small cruise lines (Hyatt, Jacksonville Historical Walking Tours, catering companies, etc).  Why not house them in one area and expand the reach of these services while also creating economic opportunity for small business owners? 

This type of development needs to be rolled into the convention center conversation in a major way.

Seems like all those old Shipyards piers would be the perfect place for berthing a variety of vessels.

Leave it to Jacksonville to demolish a once great building by Albert Kahn.

Quote from: JaxNative68 on September 23, 2011, 06:14:14 PM
Leave it to Jacksonville to demolish a once great building by Albert Kahn.

+1    I have said it before, and until it really changes , I will maintain my position. If it is Historic and in Jacksonville, it is probably endangered and going to be demolished.  It is just what happens in Jacksonville.

Memphis had an identical Ford plant that was demolished a year or two ago.  Anyone know how many buildings Kahn designed in Florida? It can't be that many.

As far as demolition, the building is locally designated as an individual landmark.  It is protected against demolition in accordance with Chapter 307 of the City of Jacksonville Code of Ordinances.

Mr. Shieldhouse was wise to bring this news to our attention. 

If you have never seen the building, its worth attending the tour because you will likely not have many other opportunities--access is limited.  Also, the earlier portion of the DoCoMoMo Tour focuses on five homes in Arlington and the Unitarian Universalist Church, designed by Robert Broward.  For more information and to purchase tickets online, go to AIA Jacksonville website.

Turn it into a brewery and a maritime Museum and a health club, or subdivide it and market it as incubator spaces for start up businesses.

You should make every effort to retain that building. It helps make Jacksonville unique.

They aren't building these anymore!

This Ford Plant would be better for Jacksonville Maritime Museum, not where those two ugly red-lined buildings that sit on both side of the Main Street currently resides now.

-Josh

Quote from: wsansewjs on September 26, 2011, 08:42:19 AM
This Ford Plant would be better for Jacksonville Maritime Museum, not where those two ugly red-lined buildings that sit on both side of the Main Street currently resides now.

-Josh

The Maritime Musuem is now at the Jacksonville Landing.

Those Southbank Riverwalk structures will be torn down as part of the Riverwalk renovations.  An artistic bid went out on what to do underneath the Main Street bridge. I personally would like to see something like Chicago has that depicts the history of the city.

(http://www.artsjournal.com/aestheticgrounds/ChicagoRiverwalk.JPG)

Indianapolis has something similar under their Canal Walk overpasses.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/570693554_QHCXU-M.jpg)

How quickly we forget....last time something was tried along the river, we had the Shipyards fiasco.

let it fall in on itself, if the owner wants to do something badly enough, have them invest the capital or sell it to someone who will. Better yet, give it to Timkin, and treat it as the new project, along with FS4, and Annie Lytle, the list goes on and on and on, so many buildings to save, so little money or interest.

I will be happy to buy a brick for a buck if you guys start selling bricks or pavers....

Quote from: mtraininjax on September 29, 2011, 06:40:20 PM
How quickly we forget....last time something was tried along the river, we had the Shipyards fiasco.

So if at first you don't succeed, just quit. 

Actually, the last thing tried on the river was RAM, which has been pretty damn successful. 

Timkin, Vicup, some people have absolutely no sense of heritage, historic places. They look at hallowed and historic places with disdain, they see history as insignificant and trying to preserve, teach, catalog, research or write it are a waste of time. No regard for Gettysburg, not a care about Olustee, and you'll never catch them visiting Camp Milton, ignorance is bliss, and this speaks volumes about their values and education.

Imagine if the Castillo De San Marcos could just be leveled and the stone used as foundations for a new Wal-Mart plaza. Imagine Fort Caroline and the preserve, filled with new ocean shipping terminals. This really is a narrow and selfish view, one that would deprive future generations the ability to walk where their forefathers walked. After all is said and done, the only thing new in the world is the history you don't know.

OCKLAWAHA

I completely concur, Ock.   And some people just have no sense.  :)

We published an article by Cleve Powell from Old Arlington Inc. about the old Ford plant in this month's edition of Arlington Monthly...

http://www.myarlingtonmonthly.com/issues/September2011.pdf

On page 14.

I TOTALLY agree with Josh about turning it into the Jacksonville Maritime Museum, now that would be cool...
Hey does anyone know what time the public tour is tommorrow???...I've done alot of Urban Exploration here in Jax and I think it would be awesome to go though and take some pic's and to just check it out.
~Ryan~

The plant tour will be from 2-4pm this Saturday for a nominal fee of $5.

Hey just wanted to thank everyone on the form here at MJ. The tour of the Ford Plant was AWESOME dispite the rainy weather this afternoon. Thanks to Ock for all the great info and pictures here on MJ, along with everyone else.  http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2008-jan-inside-the-ford-motor-company-assembly-plant
Not much has seemed to change with the site. Took lots of pictures though as it was all very intresting....

The tour was great, I'm glad I got a chance to go in to this building. Sadly, it's in bad shape. I'm not an architect or anything near it, but to me the structure unfortunately didn't look very sound. I didn't realize how large it was in there.

It's sad looking downtown at how much PRIME real estate we have just sitting for the right project (the shipyards, this area, the lot behind the DCPS building).

What's the latest news on the Ford Plant?

About the same as the Trio, Genovar's , School 4... All waiting on  an interested investor to take them on.    The Ford building is just amazing.  I hope a new use will be identified.

You know.... Mr. Khan , the new Jaguar's owner is in the Auto Parts Business..   I wonder...... hmmmmm..... What his level of interest could be in helping us preserve a few of these landmarks and re purposing them?