Southside's Tapestry Park
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1455287211_5B57DW3-L.jpg)
Metro Jacksonville revisits a quaint, budding mixed-use development where the Southside corridor meets Gate Parkway.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-sep-southsides-tapestry-park
The w xyz bar in the Aloft hotel is a pretty cool place. Cool, chic atmosphere and an awesome bartending staff.
They have such signature drinks as the 'Cosmo-not' and the 'Cucumber Collins' which are absolutely to die for.
I went to a conference at the Aloft a few months back and we had a great experience. The bar is great if not a little overpriced. And they have Bold City on tap!
How do they know the 2012 population and household income? Can they tell us some stock picks as well?
Tapestry Park is a nice place, and I like the aloft hotel chain. We stay in them whenever we can, mostly because they allow dogs. But... I would have much preferred to see them downtown or in one of the urban neighborhoods.
Quote from: dougskiles on September 01, 2011, 12:18:01 PM
Tapestry Park is a nice place, and I like the aloft hotel chain. We stay in them whenever we can, mostly because they allow dogs. But... I would have much preferred to see them downtown or in one of the urban neighborhoods.
These faux urban developments out in the suburbs are always funny to me. I normally don't have a problem with them & actually enjoy them (if they're planned correctly) as long as the city they reside in is well established & is the "main attraction". Obviously downtown Jacksonville isn't that, so I'm not sure why we wanna make something look like a downtown & throw a bunch of development behind it when we already have one that's, you know, actually the real deal. But yet ours has buildings falling down & is littered with vacant/surface lots. It doesn't make a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things since all of this stuff resides in Jacksonville proper.
This town & its leaders never ceases to amaze me how little they care for thoughtful & careful planning. Seems like anything goes.
Quote from: peestandingup on September 01, 2011, 12:56:18 PM
This town & its leaders never ceases to amaze me how little they care for thoughtful & careful planning. Seems like anything goes.
I strongly disagree. If it was truly "anything goes" the market would create denser developments that cluster complimenting uses. It makes the most sense for developers and small businesses. We would still have a lot of sprawl due to the cheap land, but there would be more nodes of density. The city has actually managed to do worse than if they enforced zero rules.
Has anyone been to corner bistro? How is it? How does it compare to Taverna/ Orsay/ Bistro AIX?
Quote from: stephElf on September 01, 2011, 01:53:33 PM
Has anyone been to corner bistro? How is it? How does it compare to Taverna/ Orsay/ Bistro AIX?
I wouldn't even try to compare. I found Corner Bistro to be mediocre lunch spot- no where in the league of the other 3 you listed. But it always looks crowded at night so maybe it has a good HH vibe.
Brooklyn would have been a great setting for this development. I used to work at the Forum in Alpharetta, Ga, just north of Atlanta. It was exactly the same type of development, except bigger with more stores like PB and WS.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 01, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on September 01, 2011, 12:56:18 PM
This town & its leaders never ceases to amaze me how little they care for thoughtful & careful planning. Seems like anything goes.
I strongly disagree. If it was truly "anything goes" the market would create denser developments that cluster complimenting uses. It makes the most sense for developers and small businesses. We would still have a lot of sprawl due to the cheap land, but there would be more nodes of density. The city has actually managed to do worse than if they enforced zero rules.
Perhaps, but that would be assuming our market (the people in general) even want or care about density. Our sprawling development would suggest that they don't since those places aren't exactly sitting vacant like a lot of the core is. I'm just saying, the proof is sorta in the pudding on this one.
Now, it is possible that a lot of these same types have never actually lived inside of a really, densely populated area/city & they've never left suburban Jacksonville for an extended period in their entire lives. So they might not even know exactly WHAT they want because they don't have anything to compare it to. A lot probably think this is just the way it is.
I can certainly attest to that line of thinking because I always lived out in the suburbs in my fresh-out-of-college days in KY because, frankly, I didn't know any better. It wasn't until I started traveling outside of my comfort zone in my own town, visiting different cities, & then ending up moving deep inside the beltway of DC until I realized how much better a truly connected, densely populated environment is over the suburbs.
QuoteNow, it is possible that a lot of these same types have never actually lived inside of a really, densely populated area/city & they've never left suburban Jacksonville for an extended period in their entire lives. So they might not even know exactly WHAT they want because they don't have anything to compare it to. A lot probably think this is just the way it is.
The residents living in these suburbs are defintely not strcitly Jax natives. I've talked to a lot of people that are transplants to Jax from much larger cities and many of them have chosen to live in northwest St. Johns County. They all cite better schools as the reason.
Quote from: Captain Zissou on September 01, 2011, 01:19:35 PM
I strongly disagree. If it was truly "anything goes" the market would create denser developments that cluster complimenting uses. It makes the most sense for developers and small businesses. We would still have a lot of sprawl due to the cheap land, but there would be more nodes of density. The city has actually managed to do worse than if they enforced zero rules.
Look no further than the great cities of the world that developed prior to the invention of 'zoning' to see the evidence of this. Left alone, the businesses will settle in the spots where they can provide the best service - the corner market, cafe, drycleaner, bike shop, clothier, you name it, all within walking distance.
Is it too late to go backwards?
Quote from: dougskiles on September 01, 2011, 03:12:49 PM
Look no further than the great cities of the world that developed prior to the invention of 'zoning' to see the evidence of this.
Which explains why Houston is such a paragon of urbanity and walkable development.
Quote from: finehoe on September 01, 2011, 03:18:33 PM
Quote from: dougskiles on September 01, 2011, 03:12:49 PM
Look no further than the great cities of the world that developed prior to the invention of 'zoning' to see the evidence of this.
Which explains why Houston is such a paragon of urbanity and walkable development.
Yeah, I agree. I dont think we can identify a constant in basic human desires of municipal layout. It defers from populace to populace. Many people really do honestly prefer not to live on top of other people and to drive around to basic necessities. Others even want wide open spaces and solitude. I can't empathize but I do understand it.
I love "The Flame Broiler." It's a great place for a healthy, quick lunch...love their magic sauce! I really enjoy Tapestry Park but I only go there because I work at Merrill, otherwise I'm never in the area.
Selfishly I really wish they had a dedicated right-turn lane off Gate Parkway turning north onto Southside Blvd. Also wish the right turn off Southside into Tapestry Park (right by the round about) had been extended all the way to the exit off Butler...would just ease up the traffic congestion before and after work.
I haven't been to Tapestry Park in a good year. There appears to be a lot more retail and dining options there now. One of these days, I'll have to head out there and check it out. As for the layout, I personally think that zoning regulations on the Southside and around SJTC should be modified to allow developments like this to naturally happen instead of forcing the developer to go through the PUD process to construct a semi-walkable project. If you ask me, the PUD/zoning variance process should be reserved for those attempting to construct low density autocentric development. Given the popularity of the area and the significant amount of public money invested there, we might as well promote as much density as possible in this Edge City.
This city is really spread out, and I think there SHOULD be places like this all over as the city grows--and yes, it will grow. They would be urban hubs, if you will. Downtown is great and should certainly be built back up, but it's over 10 miles away from this spot.
Where are all of the people!
There's not enough critical mass of people or mix of uses to generate a steady stream of pedestrians walking on sidewalks. The majority of retail/dining users still drive to these businesses.
Quote from: TheProfessor on September 02, 2011, 01:03:33 AM
Where are all of the people!
They were also taken at around 5 p.m. on a Monday ... prime leaving work time!
QuoteAs for the layout, I personally think that zoning regulations on the Southside and around SJTC should be modified to allow developments like this to naturally happen instead of forcing the developer to go through the PUD process to construct a semi-walkable project.
Seeing as though 'densifying' this corridor is a major component of the Mobility Plan, what is the next step in this area? I know there is a plan to have a walking/bike path along Southside Blvd... how specifically can the Mobility Plan be enhanced to encourage more mixed-use along this corridor... is it all zoning-related at this point now that the mobility fee structure is in place? So you're saying it's the reverse now? You have to get a PUD variance to create a mixed use high density development in this corridor?
Construction is about to begin on the stoplight outside of Blue Cross on Gate. JTA did have plans for a lunchtime trolley service along Gate Parkway linking up with the Town Center.... but I think Blue Cross' money going towards paying for a portion of the traffic light has temporarily suspended the PCT trolley plans.
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Quote from: fieldafm on September 02, 2011, 10:22:33 AM
Seeing as though 'densifying' this corridor is a major component of the Mobility Plan, what is the next step in this area? I know there is a plan to have a walking/bike path along Southside Blvd... how specifically can the Mobility Plan be enhanced to encourage more mixed-use along this corridor... is it all zoning-related at this point now that the mobility fee structure is in place?
Transportation wise, the widening of Southside Blvd is a priority project in this particular mobility zone, in the same manner that a streetcar is the priority project for Riverside. Widening Southside will help this area in many ways. For example, the widening to six lanes would also include better lighting, sidewalks, a multiuse path and intersection improvements that help pedestrians and bicyclists cross the street. These improvements will also help JTA's plans to provide BRT service on Southside Blvd between Regency and the Avenues. However, the best thing the Mobility Plan can do for this area is a revision of land use policy.
QuoteSo you're saying it's the reverse now? You have to get a PUD variance to create a mixed use high density development in this corridor?
Hopefully, eventually. At this poing the plan has modified the 2030 Comp plan to allow for future projects to build with higher densities. Yet, one thing to consider is that high density development can also be built in an autocentric fashion. For proof, look at the apartment and condo complexes along Southside between Touchton and I-95. Imagine if all of those complexes had been developed similar to Tapestry Park? We'd have two miles of walkable mixed use neighborhoods in the heart of the Southside.
So good land use and zoning modification could reverse how we build in this area today. If I had it my way, the land use and zoning should be modified to make autocentric development have to apply for PUDs and variances. Luckily, over the next year or so, Jacksonville's land use and zoning will be modified to support the goals of the Mobility Plan.
Noticed a "Starbucks Coming Soon" sign in the vacant lot in front of A Loft. Smart move. I'm assuming it will have a drive thru. Also, don't move into the Tattersall at Tapestry Park apartments. Worst place I've ever lived...it's run by a bunch of morons. And since the ownership/managment change, the once young professional tenants have been replaced with a bunch of partiers. I can't wait to get out of here. I do love the area though.
I stay in Baymeadows and I am seriously thinking of moving in the urban core. They can have this SS suburbia crap.
QuoteSo good land use and zoning modification could reverse how we build in this area today. If I had it my way, the land use and zoning should be modified to make autocentric development have to apply for PUDs and variances. Luckily, over the next year or so, Jacksonville's land use and zoning will be modified to support the goals of the Mobility Plan.
Is that the next thing COJ Planning and Development(whatever it's called, Killingsworth's dept) is focusing on?
From my understanding, its one of the next things. However, it remains to be seen how these plans will be impacted by the new mayoral administration.
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Brown could learn from this area if he really wants to develop downtown.
Not sure how much Brown or any downtown officials could learn from Tapestry Park when deciding what to do with downtown. The city could learn in general from Tapestry Park and should do its best to promote replications everywhere with transit and walkable corridors connecting all the developments. Downtown I would think is a completely different beast with so many other examples.
Tapestry Park = good example for suburbs and land planning.
And to add - I think Tapestry Park is great by itself, but not so sure how well it actually fits in with its surroundings, or if it's even possible to develop something that "fits" in seamlessly with our suburban areas. It's not like you can just walk from Tapestry Park to somewhere else.
I like Tapestry Park but I think the development itself could have been influential on the surrounding land uses if the center was designed around Deer Lake Drive instead of being interior focused. Phases I and II are pretty disconnected. It didn't have to be that way, although I doubt the development team really cared about its ability to stimulate similar infill around it.
Quote from: thelakelander on April 27, 2012, 08:45:59 PM
...I doubt the development team really cared about its ability to stimulate similar infill around it.
And that's a problem. There must be ways to stimulate and reward developers who
do care about such things.