Ben Carter Properties and Area Development
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1390801634_zQZGn2M-L.jpg)
The Atlanta-based company's development plans for two major shopping plazas have yet to be seen. The Markets at Town Center as an entertainment center? Ponte Vedra's Sawgrass Village to be torn down? We know they can talk, but when will they walk? Metro Jacksonville finds out.
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-aug-ben-carter-properties-and-area-development
Note to self: Stay away from SJTC. To become even more of a clusterf*ck.
BTW, I kinda like Sawgrass Village the way it is. It blends in nicely with the surroundings & doesn't look "old" in the bad way. Even the upscale Marriott beside it has this same sort of look, as do most of those structures. Reminds me a lot of Hilton Head & the way they theme a lot of their businesses, condos, etc.
Anyways, this all seems like development just for the sake of development (notice their argument was just about "staying modern"), but oh well.
I'm pretty sure Ben Carter is in a venture with Mass Mutual on Sawgrass, but I could be mistaken. I think BCP is the operator and Mass Mutual is the equity partner, but either way BCP is in charge of site development and leasing with approval from Mass Mutual.
We are working on pitching a deal to find a similar private company in another state an equity partner for 6 of their centers that they would still operate. Their split (very simplified) would be 20% ownership stake with various fees for management. Ben Carter is set up differently where I'm not so sure they have any equity stake in Sawgrass Village, but I'm sure they are charging Mass Mutual some huge fees on everything from improvements for tenants (maybe not, could be unique to our deal), to of course taking back 100-115% of the management fee recoverable (paid by tenants).
The CEO of the company grew up in Ortega and the Carters have long been vacationing in PVB, hence the connection. My team works with Steve Cadranel quite a bit and I got to meet him recently. It's a great company. They (or should I say Mr. Ben Carter himself) lost control of his baby ultimatum development, Streets of Buckhead. He had put in millions, maybe tens of millions, into it himself, and his company put in a total close to $200 million I think. Of course my company was a major investor in it along with Wells Fargo.
QuoteIn addition, if you've been to the area, you've come down with the massive headache of circling parking lots for spots and moving one inch at a time.
You're going to face this same problem anywhere though that people want to be. Jacksonville Beach on a sunny weekend morning. UNF during peak hours. The movie theater or Avenues Mall on a busy day.
There's definitely congestion at the Town Center, but I would hardly call it crippling or a true clusterf*ck. You may have to sit in some bumper to bumper traffic, but that's life. This traffic certainly doesn't seem to be keeping people away either. The "problem" can be partially attritubed to the layout, sure, but it's got far more to do with the general laziness of our citizens. There is never a shortage of parking if you are willing to park on the perimeter and walk. The interior congestion comes from these goofballs who expect to park five feet from their favorite storefront on a Saturday afternoon. They circle, and stop, and vulture pedestrians, and circle more, desperately trying to avoid doing any actual physical exercise.
Just once I'd love to see an article about the incredible economic impact this shopping center has had on the city of Jacksonville. The place is booming and has brought high end retail to Jacksonville in a way few could have imagined even ten years ago. Ask the average citizen in Jacksonville what their favorite places in the city are, and the Town Center would probably be right up there for the majority, yet it's constantly villified in these forums.
I'll have to go back and read the article but I don't see where the shopping center is being villified in this story. If anything, I see that Sarah has done a great job of contacting their representatives and getting an update on what has been announced and proposed at two local BCP shopping centers.
QuoteThe "problem" can be partially attritubed to the layout, sure, but it's got far more to do with the general laziness of our citizens. There is never a shortage of parking if you are willing to park on the perimeter and walk.
From my travels, I've come to the conclusion that the average person in Jacksonville is no different from the average person in any other city. What is a major factor is "layout" and "context" of the environment at the pedestrian scale level. Provide an interesting, comfortable atmosphere and people will subliminally walk longer distances. Stick a sidewalk in the middle of a massive parking lot, while providing limited to no street trees for the pedestrian and you'll find it empty. It works this way from cities as urban as NYC and Chicago to suburban communities like Jacksonville's Southside.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 08:34:58 AM
I'll have to go back and read the article but I don't see where the shopping center is being villified in this story.
No, I actually thought the story itself was quite fair. Overall, the editorials on the site are quite fair as well when it comes to the Town Center. I was speaking more toward the general attitude in the forums about the Town Center, or more specifically the bitterly negative Pavlovian response it tends to illicit at any mere mention, despite the incredible affect, both financially and psychologically, it has had on this city.
this article could be tied to america loosing it's citites..developers run amuck and all allowed by the city...building permits galore...who needs one...easy to get....i'm suprised they are'nt given out in a cereal box.
QuoteJust once I'd love to see an article about the incredible economic impact this shopping center has had on the city of Jacksonville. The place is booming and has brought high end retail to Jacksonville in a way few could have imagined even ten years ago. Ask the average citizen in Jacksonville what their favorite places in the city are, and the Town Center would probably be right up there for the majority, yet it's constantly villified in these forums.
Regency Square mall also had an incredible economic impact in its day. It was one of the best and largest malls in the southeast. Now it's effectively dead.
I'll admit that intersection is a little dysfunctional but I wouldn't really call it a headache. Jacksonville needs to put on their big girl panties sometimes.
Would it help to build parking garages to get rid rid of some of the massive parcels of parking? To me, garages should have been part of the plan to begin with. And yes, the garages should charge to park. People would still pay to have a convenient parking spot. I recently went to LA and Hollywood Blvd recently completed a massive parking structure near the Chinese theatre that is mostly underground, but all the visitors park there, and pay to park, so they can walk around Hollywood Blvd. It works great. I know we probably cannot bury ours, but we could build some Universal Studios style.
I would also love to see a trolley that links to maybe one of the ginormous parking lots off Beach,Atlantic, or even Southside somewhere. You could park there and ride the trolley in to SJTC. I know it is not eliminating parking, just moving it out further and spreading it out a bit, but anything would help. Garage's and Trolley's. That is my idea
Putting it within it's context, the SJTC is a private development constructed to turn a profit. Structured garages have a huge cost that most likely would have made the entire SJTC project unfeasible if the developer were forced to immediately build them.
Btw, I was in Hollywood two weeks ago and stayed in a hotel at that Chinese theatre complex. However, my daily parking fee came in the form of a $1.50 ticket on the red line subway under it. Here are a couple of views from my room.
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hollywood-CA-2011/i-XB7fwc6/0/L/P1490791-L.jpg)
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Hollywood-CA-2011/i-8bp72jG/0/L/P1490795-L.jpg)
I've posted before my beefs with the SJTC, as well as examples of other outdoor walking malls that "get it right", so I'll save you guys those long-winded rants & links again. But I think Lake & some others hit it on the head when they say its about layout/context.
It boils down to this: SJTC's developers tried to make it both a walkable mall & a drivable/park-at-the-door mall. It fails at both. Why they didn't make it to where you could just park your car in a designated structure of some sort & then navigate the entire town center on foot like many other open-air shopping/dining centers is anyone's guess. It kinda started out that way & was somewhat manageable, but not anymore. And as these little segregated islands within the property keep popping up, it gets worse. Its almost like its own little sprawling city, where the main drag is "downtown" & the all the other detached stuff is the "suburbs".
I don't think anyone wants the SJTC to not be there. And we're all aware of what it brings to Jacksonville. Thank God it is there (shopping in Jax before it was pretty bad for a city this size). Just saying its a faulty setup IMO & lacks focus.
It seems like on of the major traffic issues is entering off of JTB. If you're heading east on JTB you have to do some serious weaving to get over in order to turn right into the SJTC. Not to mention traffic routinely backs up under the JTB overpass. I think it would be well served if they closed the entrace to Costco and removed the light at Skinner Lake Drive. That might help a little. Costco would probably never let it fly though since you would then have to enter and exit Costco over where the Best Buy is.
They added a second right turn lane a few weeks ago and it seems to help traffic flow better.
Quote from: copperfiend on August 23, 2011, 11:00:41 AM
They added a second right turn lane a few weeks ago and it seems to help traffic flow better.
I saw that they actually went ahead and striped it now since everyone was pretty much using it as a de facto right turn lane already.
Lake were you staying at the Renaissance? I recognize the view from when I stayed there a few years back. Nice spot!
Yes. I stayed two nights at the Renaissance and another two at the JW Marriott next to LA Live, after spending a couple of days in San Diego.
I hope they do a better job. I think one of the mistakes they made with SJTC was not inviting enough 24 hr and night time entertainment venues to keep it going and draw a bigger crowd. A movie theater, a major gym, a concert/ballroom type space, a Wannado city for kids - think entertainment Carter, not just ho-hum daytime stuff. Something more than just a bar also.
I always look at that lake/pond across the street when pulling out & wish that they'd get creative with it - I know that Black Creek Outfitters uses it to "test" kayaks/canoes, but it would be pretty cool to have pedestrian bridges/piers spanning certain areas - maybe even a "waterski without a boat" kind of venue.....
They didn't do a movie theater because Tinseltown was a mile away. They designed a shopping center for a demographic that wasn't being served in the Jax market. It's hard to argue that the product hasn't been a success. Yeah, the layout could be better, but it would have been the city's responsibility to direct that process (change land use policies to encourage pedestrian friendly design).
Quote from: rjp2008 on August 23, 2011, 12:03:07 PM
I hope they do a better job. I think one of the mistakes they made with SJTC was not inviting enough 24 hr and night time entertainment venues to keep it going and draw a bigger crowd. A movie theater, a major gym, a concert/ballroom type space, a Wannado city for kids - think entertainment Carter, not just ho-hum daytime stuff. Something more than just a bar also.
It's not perfect but it seems to be a huge success.
And it's obviously still a work in progress also.
As for entertainment, there has been talk for a few years of a bowling alley being added.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 11:28:17 AM
Yes. I stayed two nights at the Renaissance and another two at the JW Marriott next to LA Live, after spending a couple of days in San Diego.
Lake travels in style!
It doesn't make any sense that they didn't try to do a "Landing" type festival marketplace at the Markets...they already have the dining and nightlife portion there and it seems more on the way...but instead of it looking like a fun and exciting festival marketplace, it looks like a strip mall. It's amazing what a lack of vision can accomplish.
Additionally, I've always thought a parking garage would have done wonders at SJTC - right in the sea of parking around the DSW/Teds/Pier One area...a nice disguised garage with ground floor retail...hell, maybe even a hotel or condos or offices on the top few floors of it.
And I guess while we're at it and I'm venting...it drives me nuts how they allowed a boring Homewood Suites to build behind Maggiano's instead of a hip "lifestyle" or boutique hotel with a trendy bar/lounge/cafe that could've contributed to Town Center instead of turning its back to the center.
Quoteolive oil and vinegar specialty store
Seriously? I give it six months, tops.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 23, 2011, 01:45:38 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 11:28:17 AM
Yes. I stayed two nights at the Renaissance and another two at the JW Marriott next to LA Live, after spending a couple of days in San Diego.
Lake travels in style!
I travel with my Marriott discount. If I had to pay the full rate of hotels these days I wouldn't be going anywhere.
Quote from: Riverrat on August 23, 2011, 01:45:39 PM
It doesn't make any sense that they didn't try to do a "Landing" type festival marketplace at the Markets...they already have the dining and nightlife portion there and it seems more on the way...but instead of it looking like a fun and exciting festival marketplace, it looks like a strip mall. It's amazing what a lack of vision can accomplish.
I don't think the nightlife component at the Markets is a lack of vision. The shopping center was already built and was empty (a lot of spaces still are). It was smart on their part to fill it with a cluster of entertainment options that weren't present in the area instead of waiting for general retail market conditions to improve. Btw, as far as vision goes, the group that brought in Whisky River and the others built an urban entertainment center in Charlotte with the same tenants about a year or two earlier.
(http://miadspace.com/www/images/bbc82c47e8ba58f380144d296d7b1d3e.jpg)
QuoteAdditionally, I've always thought a parking garage would have done wonders at SJTC - right in the sea of parking around the DSW/Teds/Pier One area...a nice disguised garage with ground floor retail...hell, maybe even a hotel or condos or offices on the top few floors of it.
It would. However, unless the site demanded that a garage had to be built, it would be cost prohibitive to the developer's main reason for building the center, which is to make a profit. A single structured parking stall can cost as much as $25k to construct, so a 1500 space garage would cost you millions. Unless, higher lease rates could be justified, a retail developer would be better off lighting their money on fire by financing the Outer Beltway.
QuoteAnd I guess while we're at it and I'm venting...it drives me nuts how they allowed a boring Homewood Suites to build behind Maggiano's instead of a hip "lifestyle" or boutique hotel with a trendy bar/lounge/cafe that could've contributed to Town Center instead of turning its back to the center.
This is something I blame the city with. We approved the plans and they fit like a glove with our suburban policies. If we want more walkability and sustainable development in suburbia, we need to change public policy to stimulate it.
Quote from: Riverrat on August 23, 2011, 01:45:39 PM
Additionally, I've always thought a parking garage would have done wonders at SJTC - right in the sea of parking around the DSW/Teds/Pier One area...a nice disguised garage with ground floor retail...hell, maybe even a hotel or condos or offices on the top few floors of it.
Parking garages are good ideas but are pretty damn expensive. I think a garage between Cheesecake Factory and Dillards still makes sense but I doubt it ever happens.
I disagree that they're too expensive - the amount of ground space you save by building five stories of stacked parking lots gives you more area for retail, mixed-use leases or even attractive features such as a lake that people can walk around while shopping/eating instead of just a retaining pond in the back of the property.
If they (garages) were not too expensive, they would be there already. As I said earlier, if their desire was profit motivated, you can't fault them because what they built has people going there in masses. Btw, the plans do show a garage or two at a later date in time. However, those would not be built until they land a couple of extra anchors who's buildings would occupy some of the surface parking lots.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 23, 2011, 02:20:10 PM
I don't think the nightlife component at the Markets is a lack of vision. The shopping center was already built and was empty (a lot of spaces still are). It was smart on their part to fill it with a cluster of entertainment options that weren't present in the area instead of waiting for general retail market conditions to improve. Btw, as far as vision goes, the group that brought in Whisky River and the others built an urban entertainment center in Charlotte with the same tenants about a year or two earlier.
By lack of vision, I mean it should have been planned that way from the very beginning. The last thing that center needed in the plans was another strip mall section.
Quote
It would. However, unless the site demanded that a garage had to be built, it would be cost prohibitive to the developer's main reason for building the center, which is to make a profit. A single structured parking stall can cost as much as $25k to construct, so a 1500 space garage would cost you millions. Unless, higher lease rates could be justified, a retail developer would be better off lighting their money on fire by financing the Outer Beltway.
Couldn't ground floor retail help pay for it? As well as saving surrounding land for further development thus further profit?
Ground floor retail isn't going to balance the cost of structured parking if you're in a situation where you simply don't need a garage to make the project work. As for vision, I still put that on the city. Carter/Simon's vision was a suburban mall without a roof and that's what they successfully built. If Jacksonville wants more walkable development, all we have to do is change our zoning policies to force it. Then it won't matter if it's a SJTC, McDonalds or gas station because their site layouts would be required to treat the pedestrian as a priority.
garages tend to cost around $20,000 a space (and even more for small ones)....so that space is roughly 9' x 18'....or 162 square feet....and the cost of 1000 car garage is about $20 million
so...1000 ground level parking spaces takes up roughly 5 acres (including aisles and landscaping but no stormwater pond).
So, basically the only way structured parking is a better deal is if the property is too small to fit everything wanted and/or the price of land is greater than $4 million per acre.
A few notes about the center.
1) Garages are very expensive in several different ways and land in Jacksonville is way too abundant and too cheap to financially justify a garage, from anyone's perspective, from a lender's to a self-financed project.
2) A movie theater is not fitting for the center and would more likely go in an adjoining power center (if Tinseltown weren't already nearby).
3) You have to worry about attracting bands of teenagers without supervision, especially the kinds of teens who skip school and commit crimes. Location, tenancy, layout, security, hours of operation...all of it flows harmoniously to attract a certain demographic.
4) Those "islands" may be ugly and not urban, but when you want to eat at Rennas on your lunch break or you want to visit a store for necessity on short order, it makes no sense to park a quarter mile away and "meander" to your destination. When you live in a driving town (and I do, too, even though my city has the 7th busiest train system in the country), you need to factor in parking, ease, and convenience if you're a store or tenant of convenience. Juicy is different from UPS Store. One is for women and girls with free time who want to visit that store and others. The other is for people who want to scurry in and out as quickly as possible and visit no other store.
5) They looked at putting residents above the shops, but there were too many conflicts, even as minute as garbage pick up scheduling conflicts, etc. Residents above the shops did not make sense for that area.