Count the TU's Phil Fretz as another who has either not read or understands the concept of the mobility plan and the funding mechanism being the projects in it.
QuoteCan we afford a 'fascinating concept'?
Submitted by Phil Fretz on August 15, 2011 - 11:55am
If you're excited about the proposal to bring streetcars back to Jacksonville, I don't blame you. It's a fascinating concept.
Of course, the Skyway Express once was a fascinating concept, too. So, let's just say "fascinating concept" isn't exactly synonymous with "wise idea."
Streetcars would be fun, at least at first, and they presumably would attract some tourists â€" mostly people passing down Interstate 95 on the way to Orlando or Miami.
But we're told that it would cost about $71 million to build the system. And, on top of that, there would be the annual expense of running it.
In case you've forgotten, we're looking at a budget shortfall of tens of millions of dollars next fiscal year. Is this really a good time to run up the city's bills?
"Some of the costs," you counter, "could be covered by special fees on new development."
Yes. But do we really want to increase the cost of new development when we have double-digit unemployment?
"Wait a minute," you say. "Streetcars could revitalize downtown."
That's a rather dubious talking point.
Do you know why people don't go downtown much? It's a long drive and, frankly, the dining and shopping options are rather limited.
How often do you think they're going to drive some place they don't want to go (downtown) simply to ride the streetcars?
Hint: How often do they drive downtown to ride the Skyway? How often do they drive to Mayport to enjoy using the St. Johns River Ferry?
Streetcars would be fun. But, in the city's current budget situation, we can't afford that much fun.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-15/can-we-afford-fascinating-concept
This editorial has so much ignorance in it, it's not funny. It's seriously just sad. For someone to just say all this stuff and not even be right about one bit of it is just sad. I can guarantee you there was no studying done before he wrote that.
None indeed. I left a reply that includes a link to the City's Mobilty Plan information page, so Phil can brush up on it and reconsider what he wrote about something that Jax is actually winning statewide planning awards for. Luckily, the 2030 Mobility Plan has already been adopted by the state, approved by council and none of the projects in it rely on asking taxpayers for money or their approval.
I've said it elsewhere, but Lake, I really encourage you to write into the TU. He's just so off the mark with this, to the tune of millions of dollars and even where the stupid thing would be located. Hell, if what he was saying were actually true, I'd oppose it too.
Fretz doesn't like much of anything more modern than the era of the Edsel.
It's crazy that the streetcar project is too expensive but multi billion dollar outer beltway dreams are just fine.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 16, 2011, 10:55:27 PM
I've said it elsewhere, but Lake, I really encourage you to write into the TU. He's just so off the mark with this, to the tune of millions of dollars and even where the stupid thing would be located. Hell, if what he was saying were actually true, I'd oppose it too.
I'm actually writing both Larry Hannan and Phil Fretz an email right now that I will post here when completed. I'm offering them an olive branch to gain better understanding of something that we're actually winning statewide planning awards and gaining national attention for.
These people are complete idiots. They are a prime example of what holds out city back. Just stupid/
Quote from: Lunican on August 16, 2011, 11:08:57 PM
It's crazy that the streetcar project is too expensive but multi billion dollar outer beltway dreams are just fine.
The mobility plan has $50 million for a streetcar between DT and Riverside and $30 million (local match for FTA funds) for a DMU commuter rail line between DT (JRTC) and the airport. For $80 million Jax could end up with a starter fixed transit system stretching from Riverside and downtown through Durkeeville, Springfield and the Northside to River City Marketplace in five to ten years.
For comparisons sake, taxpayers paid more than $80 million for two Kernan Blvd overpasses at Beach and Atlantic. Seriously, are we going to have to debate which mobility investment will Jax benefit from the most?
One that gets you to the next stoplight a minute faster or one that connects most of Jacksonville's densest and transit friendly areas to DT, multiple medical centers and the airport?
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 11:20:32 PM
Quote from: Tacachale on August 16, 2011, 10:55:27 PM
I've said it elsewhere, but Lake, I really encourage you to write into the TU. He's just so off the mark with this, to the tune of millions of dollars and even where the stupid thing would be located. Hell, if what he was saying were actually true, I'd oppose it too.
I'm actually writing both Larry Hannan and Phil Fretz an email right now that I will post here when completed. I'm offering them an olive branch to gain better understanding of something that we're actually winning statewide planning awards and gaining national attention for.
Glad to hear it, Lake. I hope to see it on the opinions page.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 10:44:39 PM
None indeed. I left a reply that includes a link to the City's Mobilty Plan information page, so Phil can brush up on it and reconsider what he wrote about something that Jax is actually winning statewide planning awards for. Luckily, the 2030 Mobility Plan has already been adopted by the state, approved by council and none of the projects in it rely on asking taxpayers for money or their approval.
I honestly think you're just wasting your time. These people are just going to be opposed no matter what type or amount of factual information is given.
Here is what I just sent them:
Hey guys,
I hope all is well. I wanted to shoot both of you a quick email to offer some facts about the streetcar project mentioned in Larry's article the other day. I think the way its being explained is doing a huge disservice to the public and the work put into it because of a general misunderstanding of what it is, how it will be funded and the reasoning behind it.
First, it's not a Brown transition team idea. It's one of nine priority projects (2 mass transit, 7 road widening projects) intended to be funded and paid for by the 2030 Mobility Plan and Fee, which will soon replace our existing concurrency system. This thing has been in the works and in public hearings for well over two years now and has already been adopted by the State and approved by Council. The implementation ordinance is in the process of being written now and it's winning statewide planning awards. The Brown transportation committee simply endorsed its support of the 2030 Mobility Plan, which happens to include a streetcar as the priority mobility improvement for Riverside's mobility zone over the consideration of more expensive and historic district damaging roadway widening projects.
With that said, although downtown would certainly economically benefit from better connectivity to surrounding neighborhoods, this project isn't a downtown project. It also doesn't cost $71 million. The mobility fee, which will be generated by "concurrency" payments of new development within Riverside's mobility zone only allocates $50 million for two phases. $36 million for phase one between downtown and Five Points and $14 million for an extension to the Park & King District. Destinations directly served include Hyatt, East Bay Street, Landing, Omni, CSX, JRTC/Convention Center, the skyway (extends transit connectivity to Southbank and FSCJ), Brooklyn, Everbank, Fidelity, BCBS, RAM, Cummer, Memorial Park, Five Points, St. Vincents and Park & King. In addition, the mobility fee also is expected to generate $31 million or so as a local match for a commuter rail line between JRTC and the airport. That corridor, which would also offer better freight rail access from JAXPORT to the FEC Bowden Yard, would serve destinations such as EWC, Durkeeville, Shands, the new VA Clinic, Springfield, Brentwood, Panama Park, Imeson/Busch Brewery, River City Marketplace and Shands proposed North Campus. It also allows for direct shuttle connections to JIA.
If these mobility zones generate the concurrency income that is anticipated by the 2030 Multimodal Transportation Study, Jax would have a pretty decent urban transit system for $80 million developed in the next 5 to 10 years and economically benefit from all of the TOD associated with it.
By comparison, we paid $90 million combined for two Kernan overpasses at Beach and Atlantic in 2009 and 2010. If we seriously compare the two, which do you really think would benefit the city the most? In addition, through FDOT and the BJP, taxpayers have paid over $200 million this past decade on Collins Road alone and no one has raised the question if Jacksonville can afford this and the long term subsidization of expensive roadway projects under construction (ex. 9B) and the Outer Beltway (to be announced tomorrow).
Also, in regards to operational costs for this particular streetcar project, its pretty close in length to Milwaukee's. Milwaukee's annual O&M is estimated to be between $2.6 and $3.8 million. They plan to pay this expense with a combination of farebox revenue, city parking revenue and state/federal transit aid. There's no reason to fret this out. The path to covering O&M is paved for us by multiple peer cities across the US that are leaving Jacksonville in the dust economically.
http://www.milwaukeeconnector.com/
Milwaukee has decided to move forward because economic studies indicate the project will generate over 20,500 new jobs, 13,500 new residents and $3.35 billion in new tax base within a 1/4 mile radius of the streetcar route over a 20-year period. I think we all can agree that urban Jacksonville would greatly benefit if even half that can be generated locally.
On the other hand, if fully built, the Outer Beltway could cost as much as $50 million in annual maintenance costs. If we're looking for a transportation bull in the china shop, that's your real huckleberry. In closing, the 2030 Mobility Plan is something that Jacksonville is winning statewide planning awards and gaining national recognition for. Instead of cherry picking individual projects from a holistic plan that creates an integrated citywide transportation network that is coordinated with complementing land uses, we should be working to make sure it's properly implemented. Just in case you're interested in getting into the details, here is a link to the mobility plan's website:
http://www.coj.net/Departments/Planning-and-Development/Community-Planning-Division/Mobility-Plan.aspx
Here, you'll find all the statistical data, maps, existing and future roadway traffic counts, cost estimates, land use policies and mobility fee calculations associated with the 2030 Mobility Plan. Let me know if you have any questions. I'll be more than happy to meet with you and answer them.
Quote from: iMarvin on August 16, 2011, 11:51:51 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 10:44:39 PM
None indeed. I left a reply that includes a link to the City's Mobilty Plan information page, so Phil can brush up on it and reconsider what he wrote about something that Jax is actually winning statewide planning awards for. Luckily, the 2030 Mobility Plan has already been adopted by the state, approved by council and none of the projects in it rely on asking taxpayers for money or their approval.
I honestly think you're just wasting your time. These people are just going to be opposed no matter what type or amount of factual information is given.
Probably, but having a good online archive factual data makes it easy to pull up information when immediately needed for those who are willing to open their minds.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 12:01:48 AM
Quote from: iMarvin on August 16, 2011, 11:51:51 PM
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 10:44:39 PM
None indeed. I left a reply that includes a link to the City's Mobilty Plan information page, so Phil can brush up on it and reconsider what he wrote about something that Jax is actually winning statewide planning awards for. Luckily, the 2030 Mobility Plan has already been adopted by the state, approved by council and none of the projects in it rely on asking taxpayers for money or their approval.
I honestly think you're just wasting your time. These people are just going to be opposed no matter what type or amount of factual information is given.
Probably, but having a good online archive factual data makes it easy to pull up information when immediately needed for those who are willing to open their minds.
You're right, didn't think about that.
People in a huff over inaccurate info. Btw, an aquarium will easily run you over $100 million.
Quote
DOWNTOWN
Local answer needed
Excellent column Sunday from Ron Littlepage about getting serious about downtown.
If the Times-Union wanted to pick a controversial subject, a new trolley system is just that.
What produces favorable results in other cities won't necessarily work in Jacksonville. People create businesses, jobs and spending. Services and retail will be sustained and grown in a quality environment.
I do not think it is cost-effective to shuffle businesses from the burbs unless the workers are willing to live downtown. I live 10 minutes from downtown by car, but where is my incentive to bypass three vibrant neighborhoods on my way into the core?
A "Downtown Authority" would be able to say to prospective developers and lenders: "You build it (retrofit workforce housing), and we will fill it."
This public/private commitment is necessary to facilitate the path to vibrancy.
Dicker Jackson,
Jacksonville
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
STEETCAR A BAD IDEA
How about an aquarium?
The transition team advising Mayor Alvin Brown suggested that he consider a streetcar public transit option for the downtown area at an estimated cost of $71 million.
Does the transition team think that people will use a streetcar system just because it's a streetcar rather than a trolley on wheels?
The wheeled trolley can go anywhere that the traffic mandates. A streetcar on fixed tracks is limited to only such routes.
It is the opinion of this writer that the $71 million could be put to much better use as seed money for a downtown aquarium on the former Shipyards site, now vacant.
That could encourage civic minded Jacksonville corporations to contribute to the initial construction cost. Jacksonville has many businesses that could step up.
At present, the only attraction for families in the downtown area is the Museum of Science and History.
An aquarium would be a major tourist destination for families. So, if the city has $71 million to invest, don't spend it to duplicate a transit system already in place that has more flexibility than streetcars on tracks.
Paul Schaefer,
Jacksonville
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2011-08-17/story/letters-readers-disturbing-report
Typical.
You know what I've learned after working years in mainstream local news outlets (TV, radio & newspapers)?? Only the stupid & uninformed use them.
We are getting a Navy Ship 2010-675 with one Finance Amendment. Not in Waterways. WHY?
RAM will be given a potential 30 year lease for a buck a year. 2011-364 and its too bad that the brand new floating dock will only be used when they are open. Not in Waterways. WHY?
2010-604-Shipyards- Time is running out and any council member can introduce legislation to have the Promised 680 Downtown Public Pier separate. Somebody on the council Make It Happen. Did anyone for a second think that you would not be allowed to use the brand new dock at RAM? This was discussed at Waterways Aug.10 I'll post more about this on another thread.
This is accurate information.
I'm warming to the idea of a streetcar. I won't pretend that I know a lot about rail but I've thought from the Prime Osborn straight to the stadium. We have had to rip up the road in front of the Landing not once but twice and it would be a 3rd time if a track had to go around the round about with the Andrew Jackson statue. Imagine the streetcar line outlining the perimeter of the Shipyards property. Just a thought. Blank canvas.
The pier is a single.
The collective MJ response here does not bode well for the future of streetcars in Jacksonville. It won't do any good to assume that this columnist is acting out of ignorance. Take his concerns one by one and address each of them directly.
^That's basically what I did in the email sent last night. Hopefully, I'll hear back from them today. I'm willing to talk mobility plan, downtown revitalization, Brown transportation committee team or even gaining better utilization out of the skyway and more.
Btw, I don't think the columnist wrote that opinion piece with a good understanding of the project. I base that on a inaccurate project price being mentioned, as well as a thought that taxes will be raised to fund this, no mention of the eight other mobility projects (commuter rail and 7 roadway widenings) and a thought that this mobility plan project was cooked up by Brown's transition team for downtown revitalization. All those thoughts, which were all major points in the opinion piece are clearly false, which would mean either a level of ignorance on the project exists or its a propaganda piece (which I doubt).
Now, if there are questions about its validity based on Jax's experience with the skyway, then lets have that conversation. However, that's a completely different animal altogether and can be discussed with the provided facts concerning the other points as well. It's the 21st century and the facts are a simple google search or visit to the city's site. There's no reason to remain in the dark on this and form/sway public opinion based on false data.
You're not going to change this guy's mind by correcting the inaccurate facts in his column. He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
so wait...is this a staff editorial...or just letter to the editor?
If from staff, perhaps a meeting with the editorial board is in order
We did'nt need and could'nt afford that massive hidious monstrosity that's now our courthouse..yet somewhere that cash was pulled out of someones butt....so...why not a program that's going to help the city and that's needed...heck...i'll be suprised if that new court house will ever be to capacity....who's to say what's more important..us?...not...that court house was'nt wanted but the rich boy got him and his daddy a contract...that's the only thing that's important right?
That looks good, Lakelander, well stated. Keep us posted if and when they reply.
Quote from: Garden guy on August 17, 2011, 08:23:13 AM
We did'nt need and could'nt afford that massive hidious monstrosity that's now our courthouse..yet somewhere that cash was pulled out of someones butt....so...why not a program that's going to help the city and that's needed...heck...i'll be suprised if that new court house will ever be to capacity....who's to say what's more important..us?...not...that court house was'nt wanted but the rich boy got him and his daddy a contract...that's the only thing that's important right?
Actually, we did need the courthouse, and were required to build it. And some of the cost overruns were unavoidable (but manageable). It didn't need to be as expensive as it was.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 17, 2011, 08:00:34 AM
so wait...is this a staff editorial...or just letter to the editor?
If from staff, perhaps a meeting with the editorial board is in order
I couldn't find this blog on the TU website this morning. But there are still issues that were raised. Apart from the mobility plan, the streetcar idea will need more study before these issues can be sufficiently addressed.
Yeah we definitely needed a new courthouse. The current one is a shit hole.
It is there...and I confirmed that they are just letters to the editor.
Dan, no doubt. Every single project in it will need more study and design before being constructed. That's typical for transit and road projects and should be with ped and bike, regardless of if it is a mobility plan funded project or not.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 17, 2011, 08:35:20 AM
It is there...and I confirmed that they are just letters to the editor.
Which one? Two appear to be letters to the editor and one appears to be an opinion piece by Phil Fretz. Regardless of how anyone feels about the concept, all are clearly based on bad information. All I want to do is provide needed answers to allow each individual reading to make their own logical decision.
guess I missed the opinion piece...would help if I went to Page 1 of the thread :)
Quote from: acme54321 on August 17, 2011, 08:34:54 AM
Yeah we definitely needed a new courthouse. The current one is a shit hole.
We needed a new courthouse but it didn't have to cost half a billion and swallow as many blocks. By the same token, we needed reliable mass transit, but it didn't have to come in the form, path or cost of the skyway. Looking back, our skyway cost more to construct and operate annually than San Diego's initial LRT line. Who do you think ended up getting more bang for their buck?
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
You're not going to change this guy's mind by correcting the inaccurate facts in his column. He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
He's received this and the point isn't to change is mind. Everyone is free to have their own opinion and choice. It's to have the right information in hand to write a proper column based on the facts we have at this point instead of bad data.
Now if he still chooses to lobby against it, that's certainly within his right. Nevertheless, even if one were to attempt to provide a more direct response to every point raised, you can't do that without pointing out the inaccuracies first because they were clearly used to shape the opinion shown in the editorial.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
Not really. His points were based on misinformation and sheer ignorance.
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
Not really. His points were based on misinformation and sheer ignorance.
This response is exactly what concerns me the most.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
Not really. His points were based on misinformation and sheer ignorance.
This response is exactly what concerns me the most.
So you're concerned about streetcars coming to Riverside, paid for by the mobility plan?
Excluding pedestrian and bicycle network funds, which are in addition to this particular $50 million for this mobility zone, what are some alternative mobility ideas people would like to see implemented instead of fixed transit that can achieve the same mobility plan goals (reducing VMT, greenhouse gas emissions, stimulating TOD, multimodal mobility, slowing sprawl growth, etc.)?
From my understanding, the mobility plan can be modified every five years, so by that time we should have some money generated that can either go for this streetcar project or some alternative that can be proven to deliver the same goals.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 09:19:26 AM
Excluding pedestrian and bicycle network funds, which are in addition to this particular $50 million for this mobility zone, what are some alternative mobility ideas people would like to see implemented instead of fixed transit that can achieve the same mobility plan goals (reducing VMT, greenhouse gas emissions, stimulating TOD, multimodal mobility, slowing sprawl growth, etc.)?
From my understanding, the mobility plan can be modified every five years, so by that time we should have some money generated that can either go for this streetcar project or some alternative that can be proven to deliver the same goals.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find another mode of fixed transit that could accomplish all of the mobility plan goals you mentioned and fit in with the characteristics of the neighborhood. The current trolley system (PCTs), aside from not being fixed route, have not proven to spur development. For the Riverside neighborhood I think streetcar is the logical mode choice. It is a shame that people like the TU writer only view it as a gimmick. Like you said, all you have to do is look at our peer cities and you can clearly see that it is most definitely not a gimmick.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 11:24:19 PM
Quote from: Lunican on August 16, 2011, 11:08:57 PM
It's crazy that the streetcar project is too expensive but multi billion dollar outer beltway dreams are just fine.
The mobility plan has $50 million for a streetcar between DT and Riverside and $30 million (local match for FTA funds) for a DMU commuter rail line between DT (JRTC) and the airport. For $80 million Jax could end up with a starter fixed transit system stretching from Riverside and downtown through Durkeeville, Springfield and the Northside to River City Marketplace in five to ten years.
For comparisons sake, taxpayers paid more than $80 million for two Kernan Blvd overpasses at Beach and Atlantic. Seriously, are we going to have to debate which mobility investment will Jax benefit from the most?
One that gets you to the next stoplight a minute faster or one that connects most of Jacksonville's densest and transit friendly areas to DT, multiple medical centers and the airport?
I'm not arguing the need for more mobility, but those two Kernan intersections were the most dangerous in the city. In fact, according to JSO, Atlantic/Kernan was the MOST dangerous over the past 6 years. Since the B/K overpass went up, it's not even in the top 10. JSO is expecting A/K to see the same results. So is $80M worth keeping a few more of our citizens safe and/or alive. I think so.
Now would somebody please school Phil Fretz on the mobility plan so he can write something factual. It's easy to put words on the page. A bit harder to make them factual and make them count. Do some research Phil.
That's an expensive safety improvement. Is the only way to make an intersection safe to spend $40MM?
^exnewsman, I don't doubt them being a safety improvement. However, if I had to compare public ROI for both of these projects, I'd say that a $80 million public transit upgrade is a much more massive safety improvement with a ton of additional benefits than $90 million for two isolated overpasses. So if someone is going to rail against such an amount being spent on public transit that impacts a larger area of town, the cost and ROI should at least be directly compared with the amount of spending we do on other projects that return less to the taxpayer. Not saying either is right or wrong but just establishing a cost factor directly related to things we approve on a regular basis without a peep of dissent.
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 09:05:55 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 09:02:16 AM
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 08:58:48 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 07:57:48 AM
He raised some legitimate points that deserve a more direct response.
Not really. His points were based on misinformation and sheer ignorance.
This response is exactly what concerns me the most.
So you're concerned about streetcars coming to Riverside, paid for by the mobility plan?
I think it would be neat for Riverside to have a streetcar line again, but my personal opinion is not pertinent to this thread.
My concern is over the strategy for moving ahead with the streetcar project.
What strategy would you suggest?
^Yes, now would be a great time to talk strategy for moving forward since there is a funding mechanism to pay for its construction.
Are there other mobility alternatives that should be considered? How should it be operated? What type of technology should it use? Are there public/private partnerships that could be put together to stretch capital? How should O&M be paid for? What's the best route to use? What's the anticipated economic impact? How should the bus system be modified around it? Should land use policies be modified in areas like Brooklyn to support it?
All of these are questions we need to asking and working to answer now and in the next couple of years, which will help nail down costs and ensure proper installation instead of making false accusations, claiming skyway II failure and keeping opinions in the dark, imo.
Quote from: stephendare on August 17, 2011, 09:26:58 AM
But I don't think that its wise to let Phil Fretz choose the battleground, which is what I think DapperDan is suggesting. And Dan, please correct me if Im wrong, and forgive me if I am---your posts have been unusually cryptic on this subject.
If I understand correctly, DDan has referred to legitimate points being made by Phil that should be addressed. Reading the essay, I believe Dan is talking about the various criticisms of downtown development.
Dan if this is not what you are talking about, please feel free to correct me.
I don't mean to be cryptic but I have other things that I am supposed to be doing today. All in all I think you've caught the main points that I am trying to make.
I'm not as bullish on streetcars as most others on this site, but in no way should that mean that I am opposed to streetcars. In terms of their potential for generating redevelopment opportunities, I think they make more sense downtown than in Riverside, which will do fine with or without them. But in any case, my personal feelings about streetcars are not related to the points that I am trying to make today on this thread.
As a side note I want to change my screen name. It's too similar to Dapper Dan's, and Duval Dude has a prior claim on DD as a nickname.
How about RR Bartender? That was my summer job when I was in college.
So what are you bullish on for improving mobility in the Riverside area?
Quote from: fsujax on August 17, 2011, 09:47:43 AM
What strategy would you suggest?
1-A more thorough streetcar feasibility study that would demonstrate whether or not the development benefits would exceed the costs for the streetcar line.
2-A land use study and zoning study that would improve our ability to apply TOD principles to raise the value of urban and urban fringe property.
3-In the short term, TransForm Jax needs to start advocating one-on-one with key leaders.
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 10:02:29 AM
So what are you bullish on for improving mobility in the Riverside area?
Stay tuned! RAP is working on something right now that would be pretty cool.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 10:13:30 AM
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 10:02:29 AM
So what are you bullish on for improving mobility in the Riverside area?
Stay tuned! RAP is working on something right now that would be pretty cool.
Is RAP going to engage the residents (and members) about what they are "working on" during the process. I'm still waiting to hear about any involvement opportunities for the parking and transportation master plan RAP is currently undertaking.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: fsujax on August 17, 2011, 09:47:43 AM
What strategy would you suggest?
1-A more thorough streetcar feasibility study that would demonstrate whether or not the development benefits would exceed the costs for the streetcar line.
2-A land use study and zoning study that would improve our ability to apply TOD principles to raise the value of urban and urban fringe property.
3-In the short term, TransForm Jax needs to start advocating one-on-one with key leaders.
I agree with this! I believe these are the things that should be done in the next few years while the money for potential construction is being generated by the fee.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 10:31:32 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: fsujax on August 17, 2011, 09:47:43 AM
What strategy would you suggest?
1-A more thorough streetcar feasibility study that would demonstrate whether or not the development benefits would exceed the costs for the streetcar line.
2-A land use study and zoning study that would improve our ability to apply TOD principles to raise the value of urban and urban fringe property.
3-In the short term, TransForm Jax needs to start advocating one-on-one with key leaders.
I agree with this! I believe these are the things that should be done in the next few years while the money for potential construction is being generated by the fee.
I think we should start a streetcar feasibility study (that builds on JTAs study) immediately.
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 10:12:28 AM
Quote from: fsujax on August 17, 2011, 09:47:43 AM
What strategy would you suggest?
1-A more thorough streetcar feasibility study that would demonstrate whether or not the development benefits would exceed the costs for the streetcar line.
2-A land use study and zoning study that would improve our ability to apply TOD principles to raise the value of urban and urban fringe property.
3-In the short term, TransForm Jax needs to start advocating one-on-one with key leaders.
agreed on #3...and I believe TransForm Jax is advocating for #1 and #2
In regards to one, maybe this should be done for roadway projects as well? Why treat the mass transit solution differently?
Quote3-In the short term, TransForm Jax needs to start advocating one-on-one with key leaders
Many people outside of Transform Jax have already been doing this very successfully. Why do you think Transform Jax is solely qualified to advocate for streetcars??
it will take more than one group to advocate for streetcars.
I think not only should Transform Jax be doing this, but every resident and group in this city who would like to see the community improved should be out lobbying as many people as possible. We've got to get past this thing of hoping for change but waiting for someone else to actually put in the work to make change happen.
My editorial is now online:
Quote'Equal time' on streetcars
Submitted by Phil Fretz on August 17, 2011 - 9:08am
Ennis Davis, a local land planner (and a meticulous researcher, I might add), is unhappy about a news story, letter to the editor and a blog of mine about a proposed streetcar system for Jacksonville.
Some of the information in the news story, which I picked up for the blog, was incorrect, he said, going on to make an argument for streetcars.
His thoughts.....
link to full editorial: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-17/equal-time-streetcars
Phil also sent these emails:
Ennis: I’ll run your letter in my blog today, unless Larry plans to run it in his. ... Also, what is your phone number, so we can ask you to talk to the editorial board? Thanks. phil....
Carol Boone from our office will call you regarding an appointment with the editorial board. phil...
Wow, I didn't see this one coming in response:
QuoteBy malseedj | 08/17/11 - 11:17 am new Although Ennis and I disagree on some issues, I believe it is time for a change in leadership at the JTA. Ennis has done the research in where our Transit Funding is best spent.
I am not a great fan of Mass Transit for the the core, but believe Ennis has a better understanding of issues than anyone I have seen in Jacksonville.
Mr. Blaylock and his Sidekick Mr. Arrington have both been using the same broken Chrystal Ball for the last 20 years. It is time to retire this Dynamic Duo before they sink us further in debt. If you use the SKYWAY and the Kings Street Garage as your examples of good planning. You could understand the resistance to their latest RTC Boondoggle with a 1700 foot planned walk between the proposed new bus station and the relocated AMTRAK Station.
I believe that we should move the bus station to the existing AMTRAK Station. The AMTRAK Station only serves about 97 people a day coming or going to Jacksonville for a total of 193 riders. Ennis would like to create a hub downtown and reduce the footprint of the proposed RTC. I believe that Downtown's days are over and that it has been overshadowed by outside the Core Development. That is our disagreement.
Given the right platform Ennis could better use what has been sloppily put together and make proper changes to clean up the mess.
John Malseed
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-17/equal-time-streetcars
Thank you Thank you Thank you!
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 09:24:49 AM
The current trolley system (PCTs), aside from not being fixed route, have not proven to spur development. For the Riverside neighborhood I think streetcar is the logical mode choice. It is a shame that people like the TU writer only view it as a gimmick. Like you said, all you have to do is look at our peer cities and you can clearly see that it is most definitely not a gimmick.
A case in point is that nothing has time to develop - they are trimming the trolley service through avondale/riverside at 5 points and reconfiguring it dt for the new courthouse - this change goes into effect next month.
That's great, Ennis. And the chance to talk to the Editorial Board is a great opportunity to moving the ball forward on 1) how the TU covers transit and 2) a better real-world outcome for these projects.
QuoteA case in point is that nothing has time to develop - they are trimming the trolley service through avondale/riverside at 5 points and reconfiguring it dt for the new courthouse - this change goes into effect next month.
Whoa, wait just a minute. They have not held the public hearings about this route change yet. Although inevitability I feel they will change the route and screw it up again... it's not 'official' yet.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 17, 2011, 11:28:36 AM
Wow, I didn't see this one coming in response:
QuoteBy malseedj | 08/17/11 - 11:17 am new Although Ennis and I disagree on some issues, I believe it is time for a change in leadership at the JTA. Ennis has done the research in where our Transit Funding is best spent.
I am not a great fan of Mass Transit for the the core, but believe Ennis has a better understanding of issues than anyone I have seen in Jacksonville.
Mr. Blaylock and his Sidekick Mr. Arrington have both been using the same broken Chrystal Ball for the last 20 years. It is time to retire this Dynamic Duo before they sink us further in debt. If you use the SKYWAY and the Kings Street Garage as your examples of good planning. You could understand the resistance to their latest RTC Boondoggle with a 1700 foot planned walk between the proposed new bus station and the relocated AMTRAK Station.
I believe that we should move the bus station to the existing AMTRAK Station. The AMTRAK Station only serves about 97 people a day coming or going to Jacksonville for a total of 193 riders. Ennis would like to create a hub downtown and reduce the footprint of the proposed RTC. I believe that Downtown's days are over and that it has been overshadowed by outside the Core Development. That is our disagreement.
Given the right platform Ennis could better use what has been sloppily put together and make proper changes to clean up the mess.
John Malseed
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-17/equal-time-streetcars
You are making an impact Ennis! Congrats!
fieldafm wrote:"Whoa, wait just a minute. They have not held the public hearings about this route change yet. Although inevitability I feel they will change the route and screw it up again... it's not 'official' yet."
From the JTA website:
QuoteNo Service Changes in September
There will not be any service changes in September. All routes will remain as they are until further notice. Thank you for riding.
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 10:16:45 AM
Quote from: Dashing Dan on August 17, 2011, 10:13:30 AM
Quote from: cline on August 17, 2011, 10:02:29 AM
So what are you bullish on for improving mobility in the Riverside area?
Stay tuned! RAP is working on something right now that would be pretty cool.
Is RAP going to engage the residents (and members) about what they are "working on" during the process. I'm still waiting to hear about any involvement opportunities for the parking and transportation master plan RAP is currently undertaking.
The short answer is yes by all means. It 's just that it's not my role to make announcements on behalf of RAP, at least not as Dashing Dan (or RR Bartender or whatever).
I may have spoken out of turn, but even though the workshops are still ongoing, the studies have been done.
Both reps, Liz & Kent, said that it was a done deal based on the public response (or lack thereof).
So although it's possibly mis-information, coming second/thirdhand, the fact remains that you can't base any type of business around such a flexible product. But most here already know that.
Quote from: fsujax on August 17, 2011, 10:43:49 AM
it will take more than one group to advocate for streetcars.
Definitely!
Great thank you!!
Looks good Lake. Top work.
Springfield and Riverside were originally "streetcar suburbs". Just makes common sense that they should be the first to be reconnected by streetcars.
Been sitting in the cheap seats watching this all day trying to get my BP down to something under 190. It is true that Springfield, New Springfield, Eastside, Durkeeville, Murray Hill, Moncrief, Gateway, Talleyrand, Phoenix, Panama Park, Fairfield, Brooklyn, Riverside, Fairfax, Ortega, Lackawanna, South Jacksonville, San Marco were ALL streetcar developments - some of the history dating to 1875. Had Jacksonville not jumped off the cliff (among the first cities to do so) and into bed with General Motors, with glowing promises of "dealerships" and "distribution centers," we'd still have the states largest streetcar network.
The only 100% American mass transit invention didn't die a natural death, streetcars were murdered. Since that time, dating to the early 1920's, the highway lobby and the transit lobby have often been a odds. People behind the wheel of automobiles have been spoon fed with ever newer, sexier cars, acres of parking and super highways all provided by the taxpayers in the name of "investment and freedom" rather then "expense and bondage."
This battle isn't new, we've just recruited new heralds of truth.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote Do you know why people don't go downtown much? It's a long drive and, frankly, the dining and shopping options are rather limited.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-15/can-we-afford-fascinating-concept
This is idiotic. Whom is it a long drive for? Granted shopping isnt much but dining offers more than almost any other area of town maybe the BEST. Someone needs to introduce him to all the Eat Up Downtown restuarants that are having the event for the next 2 weeks. http://www.eatupdowntown.com/index.php/participating-restaurants/ That list doesnt include places like burrito gallery, chicago pizza, la cena, magnificant cafe, chamblins uptown, olio, hooters, american cafe, village bread company. Find me an area that has those plus all the eat up downtown restuarants and you win a prize because theres not one. St. johns towncenter is the only comparable place and most of theirs are just chain restuarants. I consider that a long drive for me. This guy needs to get a clue.
He asked a question and made a comment about "who goes downtown to ride the Skyway" or "Nobody goes downtown much..."
I'd be willing to bet ANYONE HERE a buck that he wouldn't like the real answer to this. Just today I met with one of my doctors, a transplant from California that just met and entertained a friend from Chicago. I understand she lives out near the beaches and the FIRST STOP on the "hello tour" was a short Skyway ride to the fountain, an evening meal at Charthouse (which was packed as the mayor was there) and an evening at the beach. Her friend loved it.
Who hasn't at least once gone downtown just to admire the fantastic scene of the skyline at night along the river?
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on August 17, 2011, 05:24:11 PM
Been sitting in the cheap seats watching this all day trying to get my BP down to something under 190. It is true that Springfield, New Springfield, Eastside, Durkeeville, Murray Hill, Moncrief, Gateway, Talleyrand, Phoenix, Panama Park, Fairfield, Brooklyn, Riverside, Fairfax, Ortega, Lackawanna, South Jacksonville, San Marco were ALL streetcar developments - some of the history dating to 1875. Had Jacksonville not jumped off the cliff (among the first cities to do so) and into bed with General Motors, with glowing promises of "dealerships" and "distribution centers," we'd still have the states largest streetcar network.
The only 100% American mass transit invention didn't die a natural death, streetcars were murdered. Since that time, dating to the early 1920's, the highway lobby and the transit lobby have often been a odds. People behind the wheel of automobiles have been spoon fed with ever newer, sexier cars, acres of parking and super highways all provided by the taxpayers in the name of "investment and freedom" rather then "expense and bondage."
This battle isn't new, we've just recruited new heralds of truth.
OCKLAWAHA
You & I like to talk about this a lot, and for good reason. Its amazing to me that these people can't open their eyes & study a little bit of history to see how we got to this point. I guess they think the car just won out fair & square or something?? Too ignorant to realize that we've all been duped into a lifetime of servitude to big auto, big oil, the insurance racket & the highway system.
"Freedom!" they cried. Yeah, freedom my ass. How exactly is it freeing to have no choice but to drive every time I step outside my door? Tell them to answer me that. Also tell them to visit the single mother who can't even afford health care or food for their kid because their budget gets blown to keep up with car payments & feeding it gas so they can go work at some crummy job that pays jack squat. Fucking assholes. I hate these people so much.
Quote from: peestandingup on August 17, 2011, 07:56:19 PM
Fucking assholes.
;D ;D and another reason that this is one of the best blogsites on the interweb. ;D ;D
Quote from: John P on August 17, 2011, 05:27:06 PM
Quote Do you know why people don't go downtown much? It's a long drive and, frankly, the dining and shopping options are rather limited.
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/406107/phil-fretz/2011-08-15/can-we-afford-fascinating-concept
This is idiotic. Whom is it a long drive for?.... St. johns towncenter is the only comparable place and most of theirs are just chain restuarants. I consider that a long drive for me. This guy needs to get a clue.
There is something about being in the geographic center of Duval County that seems 'distant' to certain geometrically challenged people around here. Hell, I don't think it's too distant to enjoy and I live down the St. Johns below the freaking Shand's Bridge, as more of a resident of Tocoi as I am Jacksonville. Funny, from my door, Town Center is every bit as far as downtown. OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on August 17, 2011, 09:55:17 PM
Quote from: peestandingup on August 17, 2011, 07:56:19 PM
Fucking assholes.
;D ;D and another reason that this is one of the best blogsites on the interweb. ;D ;D
http://www.youtube.com/v/gURUMv7qZW0?version=3&hl=en_US
QuoteThe Great American streetcar scandal (also known as the General Motors streetcar conspiracy and the National City Lines conspiracy) refers to allegations and convictions in relation to a program by General Motors (GM) and a number of other companies to purchase and dismantle streetcars (trams/trolleys) and electric trains in many cities across the United States and replace them with bus services; a program which has been blamed by some for the virtual elimination of effective public transport in nearly all American cities by the 1970s. The lack of hard information about what occurred has led to intrigue, uncertainty, inaccuracy and conspiracy theories. The story has been explored many times in print, film and other media, notably in Who Framed Roger Rabbit, Taken for a Ride and The End of Suburbia.
During the period from 1936 to 1950, National City Lines and Pacific City Lines were involved in the conversion of over 100 electric surface-traction systems into bus systems in 45 cities including Baltimore, Newark, Los Angeles (mainly the "Yellow Cars"), New York City, Oakland and San Diego. In 1946, Edwin J. Quinby, a retired naval lieutenant commander alerted transportation officials across the country to what he called "a careful, deliberately planned campaign to swindle you out of your most important and valuable public utilitiesâ€"your Electric Railway System". GM and other companies were subsequently convicted in 1949 of conspiring to monopolize the sale of buses and related products via a complex network of linked holding companies including National City Lines and Pacific City Lines. They were also indicted, but acquitted of conspiring to monopolize the ownership of these companies.
By the time of the 1973 oil crisis, controversial new testimony was presented to a United States Senate inquiry into the causes of the decline of transit car systems in the US. This alleged that there was a wider conspiracyâ€"by GM in particularâ€"to destroy effective public transport systems in order to increase sales of automobiles and that this was implemented with great effect to the detriment of many cities.
Only a few US cities have surviving effective rail-based urban transport systems based on tram, metro, or elevated train; notable survivors include New York City, Newark, New Jersey, Philadelphia, San Francisco, Boston, Washington D.C. and Chicago. There is now general agreement that GM and other companies were indeed actively involved in a largely unpublicized program to purchase many streetcar systems and convert them to buses, which they often supplied. There is also acknowledgment that the Great Depression, the Public Utility Holding Company Act of 1935, labor unrest, market forces, rapidly increasing traffic congestion, taxation policies that favored private vehicle ownership, urban sprawl, and general enthusiasm for the automobile played a major or possibly more significant role. One author recently summed the situation up as follows: "Clearly, GM waged a war on electric traction. It was indeed an all out assault, but by no means the single reason for the failure of rapid transit. Also, it is just as clear that actions and inactions by government contributed significantly to the elimination of electric traction.
OCKLAWAHA
This editorial in the TU is further evidence I need to get a bird cage just to have an appropriate use for this newspaper.
Chris, I'm afraid you would have to get a bird, too. ;)
Here is a good editorial about the 2030 Mobility Plan streetcar project in today's FTU:
Quote
STREETCARS
Jacksonville falling behind
Too many false rumors about Jacksonville streetcars are being promulgated.
First, the development will cost $50 million -$36 million for phase one between downtown and Five Points and $14 million for an extension to the Park and King District - not $71 million.
The money comes from concurrency payments generated by new development in Riverside, not residential property or sales taxes.
This project was detailed in the 2030 Mobility Plan developed two years ago, not by Mayor Alvin Brown.
Next, the streetcar line is intended for residents of the core neighborhoods rather than tourists.
At its peak in 1930, over 100,000 residents rode the 65 miles of streetcar track weekly. Remnants can be found near downtown and in Avondale.
The total weekly ridership of the entire JTA system was approximately 179,000 in 2009.
Streetcars have been proven to improve property values, bring in customers to support retail and increase public safety and improving the overall business climate.
Jacksonville is being left behind by much smaller cities with streetcars, including Memphis, Little Rock, Savannah, Tucson and Kenosha, Wis.
Tampa has seen an over $1 billion increase in development value since implementation. Portland has seen almost $3 billion in increased investment.
In short, streetcars would stimulate the type of downtown development that the JEDC and Downtown Vision have dreamed about for years but have been unable to deliver.
Erik Mueller,
Jacksonville
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/letters-readers/2011-08-29/story/letters-readers-casino-jacksonville-landing#comment-462938
I read that today... Good job Erik! Do we know who Erik is? :)
That's a good opinions submission. We need to see more of this if we want people to get behind it.
To tell the truth, I've come to the conclusion that a public campaign to get the average suburbanite behind mass transit is a waste of time, if you're not going to ask them for money to support that specific project. In the case of the Mobility Plan, who cares what the guy in Mandarin or lady in Argyle thinks? Their tax dollars and approval aren't needed for it or "no-frills" urban core revitalization and investment strategies.
Instead, why not appeal to the audience most likely to support and use these things instead? For every die hard suburbanite, there is another person interested in urban living (assuming there is an actual urban environment worth that person's money). My view is if we can get a start of something off the ground (the mobility plan should greatly help this cause) and its highly successful, that will be the best form of marketing a larger plan to a wider audience that anyone can cook up.
The paper doesn't just go out to suburbanites, and even in the suburbs there are people interested in downtown development. Things like this make the issue more visible to the people who would get behind it. Obviously it will also draw the attention of people who hate the idea, but putting correct information out there to be consumed by thinking people is better than just having the paper print whatever uninformed nonsense it wants to stir up the haters.
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 30, 2011, 10:00:26 AM
I read that today... Good job Erik! Do we know who Erik is? :)
Good points. I liked the article. BT I was thinking the same thing. I'm wondering if that was Erik who participated with us at the March 19th cleanup at Hogans Creek.
Quote from: Tacachale on August 30, 2011, 11:43:25 AM
The paper doesn't just go out to suburbanites, and even in the suburbs there are people interested in downtown development. Things like this make the issue more visible to the people who would get behind it. Obviously it will also draw the attention of people who hate the idea, but putting correct information out there to be consumed by thinking people is better than just having the paper print whatever uninformed nonsense it wants to stir up the haters.
I agree. That's why I sent my response to the FTU after Larry Hannan's article a couple of weeks ago. By all means, the facts should be laid on the table for all to see.
QuoteThe paper doesn't just go out to suburbanites, and even in the suburbs there are people interested in downtown development. Things like this make the issue more visible to the people who would get behind it.
I am one of those... we DO exist. There are also plenty of folks on the fence who need convincing. IMHO... Writing off those who would not directly benefit from this type of project is simply preaching to the choir. The hard part is preaching to the unconverted... :)
When I mentioned the public campaign thing, I wasn't meaning don't write to the paper or any other media outlet to put the facts out there. To clarify what was specifically in my mind, I don't believe there needs to be a "coalition" of city wide support in order to get a starter underway. For example, there is certainly not a "coalition" of support for the Outer Beltway in Jacksonville, but FDOT is plowing forward anyway.
So going back to the streetcar, a critical mass of support is already in place and the path to get something built should not be delayed in favor of "marketing" for broad support, as if there were a public referendum coming up. The day we start thinking we have to "build consensus" amongst the average Jacksonvillian before actually doing something, is the day we'll cement the foundation of never really doing anything.
Quote from: Noone on August 30, 2011, 11:47:41 AM
Quote from: BridgeTroll on August 30, 2011, 10:00:26 AM
I read that today... Good job Erik! Do we know who Erik is? :)
Good points. I liked the article. BT I was thinking the same thing. I'm wondering if that was Erik who participated with us at the March 19th cleanup at Hogans Creek.
Yeah guys that was me. Big props to Ock for checking it over to make sure my facts were completely right. The hard part was getting everything down to 200 words, because me original "just type" version was well over 500! Guess that's what I get for being an engineer too long. ;D
I think it's real important that we make sure, especially in the FTU, that the correct information is out there. But it has to be done without the Sean Hannity-esque style of logical fallacies, misleading figures, and emotional frightening.
Also, the comments I got online cracked me up, especially since I never mentioned the Skyway and then they start criticizing the streetcar because of the Skyway!
And the "I wanna casino" OpEd gets top billing over mine!? ::)
<Apologies if anyone on here wrote that>