QuoteThe Florida Department of Transportation, Lt. Gov. Jennifer Carroll and Jacksonville Mayor Alvin Brown will be making a major transportation announcement Wednesday morning.
State officials declined to say what the announcement is, but it will occur at Branan Field Road and Oak Leaf Plantation in Clay County. The state has previously made announcements about the First Coast Outer Beltway at this location.
Earlier this year the state abandoned plans to have a private partner build the entire 46.5-mile toll road from Interstate 10 in Duval County to Interstate 95 in St. Johns County.
The state now wants someone to build only a 15-mile portion of the road and will worry about getting the rest built later.
No private companies are willing to spend the estimated $1.8 billion it will cost to build the entire road. It would have been a tollway, so the builder could have made back the investment.
The state is now looking for a private company to take the existing Branan Field Road, which would be part of the Outer Beltway, and turn it into a four-lane toll road from I-10 to Blanding Boulevard. Estimates have this costing about $250 million to $300 million.
full article: http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-15/state-make-wednesday-announcement-outer-beltway
Maybe the State is deciding to build it themselves, regardless of costs? If so, can we have that money for Jaxport instead? After all, infrastructure funding is limited and Jaxport is our top priority! ;)
The Brannan Chaffe section from Blanding Blvd. north on up past Old Jennings sure looks beat up,Third World-only a project like this could improve the corridor and that special Clay County living.
Quote from: north miami on August 15, 2011, 12:54:41 PM
The Brannan Chaffe section from Blanding Blvd. north on up past Old Jennings sure looks beat up,Third World-only a project like this could improve the corridor and that special Clay County living.
huh?
the part from Blanding to Old Jennings is a newly built 4 lane road...and the pavement condition is fine.
Note that the Beltway will swing west off the Branan Field ROW at Old Jennings and follow the powerlines down to Blanding
I don't think the Outer Beltway is needed but I'm pretty sure it will get built. If it does get built, then I say take it all the way to Yulee and call it I-495 or I-695.
On a side note, New World Ave (between Normandy and SR 23) is one of the nicest landscaped roads in Jacksonville.
from the article...
"A previous study estimated between 12,000 and 30,000 cars on that section of road per day if a 20-cent toll was charged. But that study focused on the entire roadway and didn't estimate how much money would be generated with a 15-mile road."
that was a $0.20 per mile toll
The regional model forecasts around 30,000 cars per day in 2035 on the expressway around the Normandy/103rd area....and as much as 80,000 per day around Oakleaf...and that is with the tolls.
Now caveat that with the fact that the model also has land use assumptions consistent with adopted plans that include the roadway.
Quote from: iMarvin on August 15, 2011, 01:21:46 PM
I don't think the Outer Beltway is needed but I'm pretty sure it will get built. If it does get built, then I say take it all the way to Yulee and call it I-495 or I-695.
On a side note, New World Ave (between Normandy and SR 23) is one of the nicest landscaped roads in Jacksonville.
Where would the $3 to $4 billion come from the build it? We could literally redevelop most of the city for that price tag. That's a steep price to pay for the sole purpose of seeing a pretty nice loop drawn on a map or from the window of an airplane.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 02:03:09 PM
Quote from: iMarvin on August 15, 2011, 01:21:46 PM
I don't think the Outer Beltway is needed but I'm pretty sure it will get built. If it does get built, then I say take it all the way to Yulee and call it I-495 or I-695.
On a side note, New World Ave (between Normandy and SR 23) is one of the nicest landscaped roads in Jacksonville.
Where would the $3 to $4 billion come from the build it? We could literally redevelop most of the city for that price tag. That's a steep price to pay for the sole purpose of seeing a pretty nice loop drawn on a map or from the window of an airplane.
I don't know. I just think that if we're going to build this beltway through Duval, Clay, and St. Johns, then we need to build it in Nassau too. I'm not saying build it with the rest of it, but get the ROW. There's gonna be a need for it eventually.
We already have US 301 making this path now, so no need for new ROW for a duplicate. As for the southern half, I can't imagine FDOT or a private entity financing the entire thing. There are far better ways to light money on fire. However, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch for FDOT to build the first section themselves. After all, they've already paid for a new overpass in Oakleaf and seem hell bent on getting something underway.
Well, at $38.7M/mile to build it and 30k cars X .20/mile = $6k/day in revenue, $37.8M/mile / 6k/day/mile = 6,450 Days for zero balance = 17.7 years for zeor balance. I'd say sign me up - I'll write a check today.
I should finally have the beast paid for in about 18 years. Oh yeah, who's providing the maintenance to said road while I wait on my payday?
yep...that equals $270,000 in revenue per day (30,000 cars @ $0.20/mile for 45 miles)....so one could collect close to $100 million per year...so yes, the $1.8 Billion cost is paid for in a bit less than 20 years.
Problem is that the operations and maintenance on said road would likely be close to $50 million a year...so we could recoup the investment and start turning a profit in something like 35 years...awesome!
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 02:21:22 PM
We already have US 301 making this path now, so no need for new ROW for a duplicate. As for the southern half, I can't imagine FDOT or a private entity financing the entire thing. There are far better ways to light money on fire. However, it wouldn't be too far of a stretch for FDOT to build the first section themselves. After all, they've already paid for a new overpass in Oakleaf and seem hell bent on getting something underway.
Yeah, I don't see the thing being built anytime soon but I know it will be built. And now that I looked at 301, I don't think it would cost
that much to add two lanes from that area up to 95 or US 17.
Well, since I'm a private investor that just happens to own his own civil engineering firm and construction company, I'll be paying myself all of the revenue, citing losses for maintenance and other 'undisclosed' issues, I'll settle with a handsome payment from FDOT for twice the amount it costs me to maintain my road - and now I have 4 differenct revenue streams - tolls, engineering assesments, construction contracts and FDOT assistance - to purchase my large home, expansive farm - oh yeah, and fill that big envelope that goes to a po box in tallahassee every year around christmas.
[/quote]
Yeah, I don't see the thing being built anytime soon but I know it will be built. And now that I looked at 301, I don't think it would cost that much to add two lanes from that area up to 95 or US 17.
[/quote]
This is getting ready to start...
US 301 Add lanes from the Duval County line to the four-lane just south of Callahan including replacing the Funk’s Creek Bridge (14 miles). Anderson Columbia Company of Lake City and Horizon/IDA should begin with the design in the Fall of 2011 and finish with the construction in 1,200 days (Fall of 2014) at a cost of $59,559,000.00 (includes adding lanes in Duval County from a point where the future Baldwin bypass intersects to the Nassau County line for a total of 17 miles). (4295511) http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/construc/pdf%20files/NASSAU.pdf
Although its a little confusing whether or not its going to be 6' bike lanes on each side or 4 lanes.. And to think they just finished resurfacing this stretch of road in the spring. talk about a waste of money.
I thought this was interesting only 3 comments so far on the TU site about the Outer Beltway announcement and 77 on the streetcar story.
Quote from: adamh0903 on August 15, 2011, 03:12:11 PM
Yeah, I don't see the thing being built anytime soon but I know it will be built. And now that I looked at 301, I don't think it would cost
that much to add two lanes from that area up to 95 or US 17.
[/quote]
This is getting ready to start...
US 301 Add lanes from the Duval County line to the four-lane just south of Callahan including replacing the Funk’s Creek Bridge (14 miles). Anderson Columbia Company of Lake City and Horizon/IDA should begin with the design in the Fall of 2011 and finish with the construction in 1,200 days (Fall of 2014) at a cost of $59,559,000.00 (includes adding lanes in Duval County from a point where the future Baldwin bypass intersects to the Nassau County line for a total of 17 miles). (4295511) http://www.dot.state.fl.us/publicinformationoffice/construc/pdf%20files/NASSAU.pdf
Although its a little confusing whether or not its going to be 6' bike lanes on each side or 4 lanes.. And to think they just finished resurfacing this stretch of road in the spring. talk about a waste of money.
[/quote]
Wasting money on projects in this area is the usual. Instead of doing it the right the first time, it has to be done at least twice.
Quote from: fsujax on August 15, 2011, 03:24:42 PM
I thought this was interesting only 3 comments so far on the TU site about the Outer Beltway announcement and 77 on the streetcar story.
Jacksonvillians love their cars! Although, surprisingly, those 3 are all opposed to it.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 15, 2011, 02:21:22 PM
We already have US 301 making this path now, so no need for new ROW for a duplicate.
Lake,we know better.
Brannon Chaffee a Clay Booster Dream since at least the late 60's,solidifying during Bruce Smathers era,General Development,Reinhold aspirations and a host of other corridor development drivers.
Tomorrow will prove fascinating.
We will get a hint as to certain noses that have been under the Alvin Brown Tent.Transportation Committee.
Our own Marty Lanahan,while posted at top State Transportation position last year,advocated for tolls.
Any new expressway, bridge or added capacity to the highway network needs to be tolled. Plain and simple.
I agree. Might as well try and slow down the level of roadway subsidies we've been handing out over the years. I'm cool with user fees.
Quote from: fsujax on August 15, 2011, 03:24:42 PM
I thought this was interesting only 3 comments so far on the TU site about the Outer Beltway announcement and 77 on the streetcar story.
Rednecks and the Tea Party are a vocal bunch. The Beltway will benefit the pockets of a few and a Streetcar would benefit thousands of regular citizens so of course you are going to get a ton of negative comments about the streetcar on the TU site.
I still don't know how the outer beltway will help anyone. Tea Party or no it just seems like the biggest waste of money and resources.
It will help raise the value of land for suburban development in Clay and St. Johns and create short term road construction jobs. Long term, it will help suck Duval dry and give Clay and St. Johns the same general budget issues we're facing now.
yeah short term/ always short term. We need to infest in the future.
and in the mid-term, it will likely relieve some congestion on Blanding Blvd
I still don't see how this is going to relieve traffic on Blanding. Isn't the proposed stretch too far up and to the west to help Blanding?
Without some direct east/west connections between Argyle Forest and Blanding, I doubt Blanding sees any significant congestion relief by this 15-mile stretch of road. As jcjohnpaint mentioned, it hits Blanding too far south, unless traveling from Middleburg. Although Blanding is congested, you'd be better off sitting through congestion instead of driving way out of the way and paying a couple of tolls to do so. The benefit for Clay County with this baby is clearly a new improved corridor to attract development, most of which will probably come at the expense of Duval.
Here's your list of projects being advanced by Rick Scott:
QuotePrasad said "building on the success" of the I-95 toll lanes in Miami Dade County FDOT will be pursuing new "managed lanes" (MLs) other places in the state:
- I-4 managed lanes in Orlando will be the subject of an investment grade traffic and revenue study to support a start in 2013
- Palmetto Expressway Miami Dade
- I-75 Broward County managed lanes to be part of a P3 RFP
- extension of I-95MLs into Broward County where I-595MLs are currently in construction
Prasad said that Governor Rick Scott was determined to accelerate construction while the private sector had spare capacity and while people and companies were looking for work. They wanted to bring a billion dollars' worth of projects into the current fiscal year. He listed projects to be advanced as:
- US27 Polk County
- I-75 Lee County
- SR9B Duval County
- Quincy By-Pass Gadsden County
- SR79 Public-Private Partnership, Holmes and Washington counties
- I-95 Indian River County
- I-95 Brevard County
- SR823/NW 57 Avenue Miami-Dade County
- SR50 Hernando County
- Pinellas Bayway, Pinellas County
- Veterans Expressway Hillsborough County
- sections of the Wekiva Parkway, Orange County (construction by late 2012)
- First Coast Outer Beltway Jacksonville, Northeast Florida
- widening of the Homestead Extension of Florida's Turnpike Miami-Dade County
- the widening of the mainline Turnpike in Osceola and Orange counties
- conversion to all-electronic tolling of the mainline of Florida's Turnpike
http://www.tollroadsnews.com/node/5432
Here's a website for the Branan Field-Chaffee Express
(http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/images/BFC_map_full.jpg)
http://www.fdotfirstcoastouterbeltway.com/bfc.asp
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 15, 2011, 09:31:34 PM
yeah short term/ always short term. We need to infest in the future.
I'm assuming that "infest" was a typo, but in this instance it somehow seems appropriate.
Another thing that might happen is the bottom half connecting to Blanding will just spur more development around Blanding and instead of ever relieving Blanding congestion, will just add to the congestion/ not only not fixing the problem, but adding to it.
..and of course spur more development in Clan instead of Duval
This project isn't going to go away until it is built. Too bad. It ashamed people gripe and whine when an alternative mode of transportation is discussed for an area of town that is congested and constrained (no room to build new roads or add capacity), but it is perfectly OK to build this monstrosity through wide open green land.
Quote from: jcjohnpaint on August 15, 2011, 10:57:54 PM
I still don't see how this is going to relieve traffic on Blanding. Isn't the proposed stretch too far up and to the west to help Blanding?
the regional travel demand model (which is what planners use to test out projects like these) shows that 2035 traffic on Blanding between Branan Field Rd and SR 224 (Kingsley) would be about 15% less if the expressway is built vs. the no-build option....and 10% less from Kingsley to Wells.
and yes, jc....building the expressway would yield a 5% increase in 2035 traffic on Blanding south of Branan Field Road
Two caveats
1. all land use data and other factors (auto occupancy, trip characteristics, etc.) are held constant between alternatives
2. the test assumed the expressway was not tolled....clearly the effect on Blanding will be less if it is tolled.
Also note that the analysis tested what would happen in the College Drive extension were also built...that potential road would connect Blanding with the expressway and would reduce traffic on Blanding (between Brana Field and College) by another 15% (vs. without the extension)
It seems that a significant amount of single family residential, along with a shopping center would have to be purchased and possibly demolished for a College Drive extension. In addition, the road would have to be constructed through a decent sized wetland and should include extensions of Oakleaf Village Parkway and Cheswick Oak Avenue to make it worthwhile. All of that would be needed pull more vehicles to Branan Field and off other adjacent arterials such as Argyle Forest and Blanding. Who would pay for these extension projects? Btw, if these projects were constructed, they'd probably negatively impact the fake need for an expressway upgrade of Branan Field, since Old Middleburg and Shindler would begin to make sense as alternative north/south corridors closer to Blanding.
Quote from: thelakelander on August 16, 2011, 12:35:24 PM
It seems that a significant amount of single family residential, along with a shopping center would have to be purchased and possibly demolished for a College Drive extension. In addition, the road would have to be constructed through a decent sized wetland and should include extensions of Oakleaf Village Parkway and Cheswick Oak Avenue to make it worthwhile. All of that would be needed pull more vehicles to Branan Field and off other adjacent arterials such as Argyle Forest and Blanding. Who would pay for these extension projects? Btw, if these projects were constructed, they'd probably negatively impact the fake need for an expressway upgrade of Branan Field, since Old Middleburg and Shindler would begin to make sense as alternative north/south corridors closer to Blanding.
Agreed. The College Drive extension alone was estimated to cost $35MM (it is in the NFTPO LRTP Cost Feasible Plan and is a priority project). Although I think the PD&E actually calls for using Parkridge Ave rather than tearing down the newly built Publix shopping center. Still have to deal with a massive wetland though.
and the reality is folks realize now the road can't be built for $35 million....probably closer to $100 million given the wetland mitigation taht would be required.
and the LRTP does include an extension of Cheswick Oak to connect in with it
The T-U wants to hear from you
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-16/would-you-pay-toll-northeast-florida?cid=hp-lede
Plain and simple............save the money and do not build it! Not cost effective and I do not think it could be built with the amount discussed ($35 Million?)
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 16, 2011, 02:08:02 PM
The T-U wants to hear from you
http://jacksonville.com/opinion/blog/400669/larry-hannan/2011-08-16/would-you-pay-toll-northeast-florida?cid=hp-lede
Yea!!
During Clay County Brannon Chaffee Sector Plan and pivotal Beltway/Lake Asbury Sector Plan (round #1) FTU news coveRage,including two private marathon meetings with FTU Bauerlein and myself,at the FTU request,I found FTU reporting efforts lacking.This was not a matter of weak news source,but rather an institutionalized response from the FTU,which could not fathom reporting in a manner that could possibly affect predetermined outcome.
By the time Lake Asbury 1 Sector Plan had commenced I had already experienced receiving a phone call from US Army Corps of Engineers Joe Miller,placed while attending Brannon Chaffee ground breaking ceremony.A lot had transpired "quickly" at that point (including Mayor Delaney involvement)......the COE Colonel called me to apologize.....!
Colonel Joe Miller would soon emerge-for a short period- as Mayor Delaney Public Works Director.
It wasn't a situation where the FTU was dealing with a weak news source......I in fact was firmly established within a mainstream Conservation organization,strong Clay County roots (Middle Civic Association room named in my father's honor) and would go on to orchestrate negotiations modifying beltway corridor route.
In the scheme of things, the "reporting" aspect will prove a great study.The test tube is boiling over.
Quote from: tufsu1 on August 16, 2011, 01:12:42 PM
and the reality is folks realize now the road can't be built for $35 million....probably closer to $100 million given the wetland mitigation taht would be required
Well then,let's haul Rick Scott in and get rid of the pesky "Regulatory Hurdles".
the corridor is easily linked to Clay County Conservative Politics,a local with ties to corridor speculation who became DOT head,State Legislators past and present complicit.
Rick can denounce the Crist support based on DCA precedent....throw it all out,yank that corridor back through the Ravines and on down in to Reinhold country just as the 1973 County map dreamed of.Heck,name the Beltway in honor Of Reinhold Corp!!
Scott,please put us on the map!!
the test tube is boiling over