Metro Jacksonville

Well Jacksonville, we all seem to have some opinion on our Skyway. Was it really Gods gift to Mass-Transit, or was it a devine gift completely screwed up by the powers that be? Could it be salvaged and turned into the show piece of downtown? Should we just give up and tear it down? Maybe you think we could run something else up there? Here is a little poll that should run for 15 days. You can answer by placing a check in any box you agree with... You can answer as many or as few as you would like. If you don't agree with a statement, just leave it blank. We really need to see what the people feel about this:  

Ocklawaha

I voted for:

1. Tie the Skyway into regional rapid transit as a downtown feeder
2. Drop all fare on the Skyway, make it free
3. Use Skyway to replace most buses on downtown streets
4. Expand it to The Stadium area

As for extending it to Five Points, San Marco, increasing service, etc., I'd prefer that money be taken to help fund a regional transit system that could tie into the existing skyway (feeding it riders), while that new transit system connects these areas with downtown and others beyond.  Given the expense and visual blight of an elevated system, it seems we would be better off spending less on something that's more attractive and set up to extend further outside of downtown.

Lake, a few questions for you - do you know the answers or where to go to get the answers for the following:

What it costs the JTA to annually operate/maintain the skyway, and what is its operating deficit is after rider fares are included?
How many riders use the Skyway annually?  (I guess this would be counted in number of trips, yes?)

Quote from: Ocklawaha on December 07, 2007, 11:02:08 AM
Well Jacksonville, we all seem to have some opinion on our Skyway. Was it really Gods gift to Mass-Transit, or was it a devine gift completely screwed up by the powers that be? Could it be salvaged and turned into the show piece of downtown? Should we just give up and tear it down? Maybe you think we could run something else up there?
Ocklawaha

Divine gift my eye!  Where is the option for tearing it down?

Total capital costs for the 2.5 mile skyway was $184 million or $73.6 million per mile.  According to this document, the skyway's operating costs are around $3.5 million annually or $10.71 per passenger mile.

http://www.dot.state.co.us/northI25eis/newsletters/sept04/Transit_Technology_Analysis_AGV.pdf

As of 2002, it only has about 3,000 riders a day.

QuoteAccording to an ABC news report in July, 2002, the system was only carrying 3,000 riders per day, far fewer than was projected. Skyway revenues were reported to be $513, 694 in FY 2001 but expenses were $3.5 million. All eight stops are now in operation. The full system was opened to the public in November 2000. Skyway spokespersons blamed the poor downtown economy for the low ridership achieved so far, but argued that it would prove to be a success in the future.  As of 2004, fares were 35 cents for individual rides, 10 cents for elderly riders.

http://faculty.washington.edu/jbs/itrans/jack.htm

The actual cost per passenger boarded comes to $17.50. But this isn't the whole story, fact is if we ran the same figures for your neighborhood street or highway, you'd probably have a heart attack. Further? Well it is said that for every Amtrak passenger, the federal government lays out about $35.00... Would you believe for every airline passenger that number is closer to $130.00?? TRUE! Most Monorails/Skyways/Light Rail/Bus or BRT systems have numbers closer to the revenue, costs about $1 - 3.00 per passenger. Seattles is one of the lowest cost per passenger in the nation for ANY transit system.

The whole trouble in Jacksonville is we have not finished the Skyway in ANY FORM! We never replaced any surface buses with it, never built more then Rosa Parks, and frankly just walked away from it. There ARE cheaper ways to expand it, larger equipment to enhance it's abilitys, and many other improvements that could be done. It will take leadership at the top, and a good set of brass (male parts) to make it happen. My hope is EVERYONE will take the poll and give us a ballpark on where to start.

Ocklawaha

Run it to 295 & 10, 95 & JTB, The Gator Bowl, and out by Regency Square and use it instead of light rail because of right-of-way concerns and costs. MAKE it function as a commuter system as it should be. Send it up at least to Shands as well, with a feeder into Five Points, a few downtown spurs, spurs in San Marco to just beyond St. Nicholas, maybe as far as Beach & St Johns... then make connecvtors to an orange park light rail system, and run light rail from Baymeadows along that wide right of way there.
An intergrated system with park & rides would save so much fuel and parking fees that most downtown drivers would start using it. Make it $3-5.00 for a round trip park & ride. That would about equal parking fees, and save fuel, and more than pay for the lines, except light rail from OP and baymeadows, which should be about $8-10. Figure $3(+?+?+?) per gallon and two gallons a day, plus the time wasted and parking and many would jump on the train because it would actually save both time and money.
Since the light rail infrastructure is just about in place, start there with two Baymeadows and two Southside stations with parking and bus tie-ins dropping at the skyway terminal just before the bridge. NJTransit style cars would be ideal on an electrified track, but even a small diesel to start would do it. They could even use a work truck to move two cars if they had to. There are a lot of second hand cars around.
Once it is clear that someone could park and shoot straight downtown to the skyway anyone near that line who is sick of gas pumps, parking lots and traffic would jump on board real quick. The other line could be OP with two stops there, one at the base, Ortega naturally, one along Roosevelt across from Kent, and the last between Edgewood and McDuff, dropping either there with a bus or skyway hop into town, or maybe a transfer terminal just past Stockton by the creek, which is an easy extension for the skyway.
Picture someone getting on a train in OP, and beating traffic to Southside with no Buckman, let alone the fast run downtown! No 10/95 merge, lines, heavy traffic, costly parking, wear and tear on cars....
It might take two years to get real ridership, but once it did this city would have a better standard of living.

The skyway's technology isn't set up to be extended outside of the downtown core.  Its a slow moving expensive horizontal elevator.  Mass transit should be extended to the suburbs, feeding downtown riders into the skyway, but there are several more affordable options out there, then building elevated skyway infrastructure all over town.

I voted to send it to the stadium, replace the buses downtown and send it to 5 Points.  To clarify, when I say send it to five points I mean send it to Annie Lytle, not past I-95.  The complications with sending it under the bridge and then replacing some park area for a station are not appealing to me.  I just feel like as of right now it goes from one office building to another, without ever really serving any destination locations around the core.

WE CAN'T BE LOUD UNLESS YOU VOTE!  

Have you taken the poll on the Skyway? If I get enough numbers on this, I will carry it to Peyton and Company myself!

Ocklawaha

I voted for options:

(3.)  Expand it to Riverside - 5 Points
(4.)  Expand it to The Stadium area
(5.)  Expand it Across from Rosa Parks and into the Campus of FCCJ for student safety
(6.)  Operate some trains late night or all night

(8.)  Drop all fare on the Skyway, make it free
(9.)  Use Skyway to replace most buses on downtown streets
(10.) Tie the Skyway into regional rapid transit as a downtown feeder

(12.) Build more transfer facilities such as Rosa Parks  4 (3.1%)
(13.) Expand the Skyway to larger 4 or 6 car trains  7 (5.5%)
(14.) Shorten the headways between trains  5 (3.9%)
(15.) Complete the Skyway improvements BEFORE we build a BRT system


I would really like to see a completed system that extends to all the edges of the core.  From there rail, busses, and BRT would feed riders from the burbs into the system.  Making the Skyway free is a fantastic idea and should help to alleviate and transfer burdens.  Also, busses should be removed almost entirely from the core and replaced with free trollys (at least the rubber wheeled ones) that have clearly marked stations and route maps.  As the system grows more cars should be added, headways shortened, and operation hours extended (at least until after the bars close to keep people from behind the wheel).  I think the skyway should be THE system for downtown and other sections of town could be served by other modes.

NO need to post a reply, just make sure you take the Skyway Poll!  

Ocklawaha

When I lived downtown I took the skyway almost daily as my sister  lives in San Macro.  Extending the skyway to san marco square would be great. I had to hoof it to her house about a 15 minute walk from San Marco Station.

Not much time... If you have an opinion on the Skyway, TAKE THE POLL before it closes...

Top of this thread, just a few seconds to click a message to the City.

Gatorback, thanks for your input. I'd really like to see it connected to a new Zeppelin Aircraft pad in the Southside, so we could take that giant leap backwards in Style. Watch the Sky and not just the Skyway y'all because ZEPPELIN is back and coming to America! Being courted by available Cities from Coast to Coast, but not Jacksonville. Gatorback, if Austin get's a Zeppelin field, I'M MOVING!

SO MAYBE I'll do a Zeppelin poll next? For now... PLEASE DO THE SKYWAY POLL!
Ocklawaha

Great idea Ocklawaha and we shouldn’t stop there either. Let’s extend the skyway down onto the St. Johns River at water level.  This way, we can take our hovercraft service from green cove springs to downtown jax, hop on the skyway all the way back to South Point. Yes it's doubling back but heck the JEA has money to burn.  Is South Point the logical place for our Zeppelin Aircraft pad?  Wouldn't you want the pad at the top of a building in downtown?  We could grab a bite to eat at the rotating restaurant before our flight to that mountain you want to build on the north side.  ;D

GET THOSE SKYWAY OPIONION POLLS DONE FOLKS!

(Damn! I need my big purple crayon for that one)

Anyway, Gatorback, for all of my clowning about the new Zeppelin Aircraft field, believe it or not, it's a REAL thing. The first will be crossing the Atlantic any time now. They are just waiting on FAA approval... Something hung up about that damn Hindenberg or something. They'll have to prove to the FAA that Helium doesn't burn. If you want to see the prototype ships (already about a dozen) look online for ZEPPELIN AIRSHIP, or ZEPPELIN NT. Very cool. The only reason I am half way serious about them is the planned Zeppelin cargo ships will carry some 15-25 containers each. They will use as much fuel from Europe to Jacksonville (for example) as a 747 uses going from the gate to the end of the runway before takeoff. Add to that that those containers will be moving a 4-5 times the speed of ocean shipping and something like 20-30 hour service becomes a reality. Now yes, to all my fellow comics, this has met with REAL troubles in the past. Flying the Akron and Macon into gales with 1920's type instruments probably wasn't too smart. Filling the Hindenberg with Hydrogen (shades of JTA hybrid plans) then dragging WET mooring lines on a pavement full of metal tie - downs, at the end of an unstable day of electrical storms wern't too smart either.

But for the sake of argument, if Zeppelin pulls this off, and I think they will. Watch not just Jacksonville, but the whole South and Southwest, stand back and say: "Uhh Huh? Why'd they go and build the damned terminals in Akron, and Lakehurst, and Oakland...we NEVER get anything good!" I'm not saying make an all out Mayor/Council attack on getting Zeppelin (though California has), I'm saying a nice letter, welcome package, maybe a tour of the town, dinner and such is in order. We once had Lighter-Then-Air-Ships, Mayport, NAS or Cecil had portable masts, FRANCIS LTA base out by World of Golf Village, was a REAL LTA base. Brunswick, had a huge operation... (yes fella's I'm THAT OLD, I remember being in the hangers, and seeing the massive blimps). Bananna River, and Richmond, Florida were also home to the great ships. The Hindenberg even wintered here once, she took up the whole hanger with only 5-15 feet to spare... (*Okay, I'm not THAT OLD) but I know it happened.

So just for the sake of argument, worst thing that happens is we get a base for a VERY unique tourist attraction, people on the way to the Mouse-Sun combo down South, stop for a day or a week for a cruise, and a REAL ZEPPELIN ride. Small change maybe, but unique enough to be one of a few World sites. BEST? Well if the plans come to a success, we stand to be the 3Rd largest Container Port in the Eastern USA. What would it say for us if we were also the ONLY one at the party, that could get your high priority containers overseas in 2 days? The JIA and JAA would go sky-high, the JPA would look like a beacon in a World of "also ran" ports. It COULD happen...

Now that y'all have read the sense behind the jokes, time for that Skyway Quiz... I'll follow it with a quiz on the R-101, LZ, LTA, Graf and Italia...  Spppt spppt spppt spppt! Weee this helium is fun!

Ocklawaha

Ocklawaha I know you're serious.  This is exciting times we live in.  We could actually see that in our lifetime.  And I believe that it totally could work.  I was excited as a child to ride in one of the what, two Goodyear dirigibles, years ago--way before blimps where commoditized, now every sixteen year old whore has a blimp. I think I rode in Freedom in 1973 or '74. Add to the survey: 1) have you ridden in a blimp, 2) have you ever turned down riding in a blimp (my mom did, I guess she was afraid of flight, and 3) would you pay $40-50 to take a 45 minute ride.  Goodyear blimps are small.  They only seat like 10 people.  The insurance cost would prevent you from making any money.  I wonder how much money Goodyear looses flying those old things around.

Landing a blimp in fog or wind is tricky.  Sure you could fly from Paris to Jacksonville in a day or two,  but it might take you weeks to land in that wind.   ;D