Quoteby Christian Conte Staff Writer
SOUTHSIDE-- Another Atlanta developer is planning a shopping center next to the St. Johns Town Center that is expected to cost $75 million.
Pinehill Development Co. will transform 52.5 acres fronting Town Center Parkway between the town center and Costco Wholesale Corp. into 350,000 square feet of retail space called The Markets at Town Center.
"We're real excited about it," said Pinehill partner Barrett Howell Jr. "We really want it be a quality project for the area."
Although Pinehill has invested in other properties in the Jacksonville area, this is the 25-year-old real estate investment company's first development project in Florida. Pinehill invests and develops retail, office and warehouse space, primarily in Georgia.
Duval County Clerk of the Courts records show the company bought the property for about $44 million Aug. 23 under the name Pinehill Markets Operating LLC from large-scale local landowners the Skinner family.
The first phase of the 1.2 million-square-foot St. Johns Town Center, a partnership between Ben Carter Properties Inc. and Simon Property Group Inc., opened in 2005. Ben Carter Properties Chairman Ben Carter, well-known in Atlanta for numerous mall projects, said the town center is his most successful in sales per square foot. Pinehill Investments and Ben Carter Properties have worked together on retail projects in the Atlanta area.
Howell would not disclose details about prospective tenants at The Markets at Town Center beyond saying the company is negotiating with retailers. The construction timeline will be determined once tenant leases are signed. Ben Carter Properties will be the leasing agent for The Markets at Town Center.
Carter doesn't see The Markets at Town Center as competition that could harm sales or the ability to attract new retailers at St. Johns Town Center. "It's complementary," he said.
He is already planning a third phase for St. Johns Town Center expected to start construction in 2008. It could include three department stores and an additional 150,000 square feet of specialty shops.
Pinehill partner Ron Bobo said the company has been waiting for the right opportunity to develop in Jacksonville and bought the property near J. Turner Butler Boulevard and Gate Parkway partly because of its proximity to Carter's project, which he considers one of the best examples of a lifestyle center in the Southeast.
The Howell and Carter families have a long history dating back to Barrett Howell Sr. and Frank Carter, Ben Carter's father, who were friends. Howell said he has been familiar with the Jacksonville area since childhood, when he and his family started vacationing in Ponte Vedra Beach. When here, the Howell family often ran into the Carters.
Phillips Partnership PC in Atlanta is designing The Markets at Town Center and Balfour Beatty Construction in Dallas will build the project, which is expected to be completed in 2009.
Geneva Henderson, executive vice president of the commercial brokerage firm Lat Purser & Associates Inc., said the property where The Markets at Town Center will be built is a great site because of its location and demographics.
"There's an awful lot of interest in the outparcels over there."
http://jacksonville.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/stories/2007/12/10/story1.html
I hope we get an organic grocery store. I am crossing my fingers for a second Whole Foods location.
This is going to help traffic, right?
So what will happen to the Southside when the "Town Center" looks like Gateway Mall? Can the SJTC decline like that or is it different in some way?
Come on y'all, this is the modern world... STJTC will slowly decay until it reaches the state of Regency or Gateway, then the big ticket boys will come in and slap down new plaster and paint for another 10 or 20 years. By then look for new INDOOR read that "AIRCONDITIONED" malls to pop up and replace Regency, Perhaps near River City Marketplace and the big hole in retail, the booming West Jax - Baldwin corridor. I would also think the three projects in St. Johns County and some big announcements on Flemming Island, Orange Park or even Middleburg will keep the shoppers fresh. When the malls are just too old to function, such as Roosevelt, they can be flattened into new Town-Centers, Condos or whatever the vogue is at the time. Just rest certain that whatever or where ever they are, if a bus passes nearby, they will be official TOD'S!
For myself, wife and daughters, we'd rather clone San Marco, Avondale or 5-Points 10,000 times then suffer another cookie cutter mall.
Ocklawaha
Cookie Cutter???? How can you call a place named "The Markets at Town Center" a cookie cutter mall? Sounds like a pretty unique place to me...
I agree that this is a sad story. All of this money could be invested into shops and mom and pop stores in San Marco, Riverside, Downtown, etc. Such an investment would improve the quality of life and walkable livability of those neighborhoods which do give Jax its only character. I think the SJTC is nice, but I do wish that it was in one of the historic neighborhoods. I wish the same for the "Market." It all boils down to zoning. The zoning department could limit development to the historic neighborhood's business areas, but alas they want to let the sprawl fest continue. No vision. No character.
Notice that the investor is from Atlanta. Does he really care about Jacksonville improvement?
There is going to be sprawl and suburban malls are not the worst thing in the world. They serve the people of this city, but we don't want sprawl to define us. The urban core of Jax seems to progressing. We need to fight the BRT and encourage urban development, but people in the burbs will use these malls.
Just imagine if there was some sort of rail system that stopped at the beaches, the SJTC, and then back to downtown, then connected with the other rail in the area. It would be a pleasure to ride to the SJTC then and not a traffic nightmare like it is now. In reality the SJTC is a really nice place and has a small downtown feel to it. It is a place I would take out of towners to.
Quote from: Lunican on December 10, 2007, 09:53:53 PM
So what will happen to the Southside when the "Town Center" looks like Gateway Mall? Can the SJTC decline like that or is it different in some way?
When do you really think the Town Center will "look like the Gateway Mall"?
Gateway's darkest days were in the mid 90s, a little more than 30 years after it opened. Regency's cycle has followed a similar path, although its still several notches above Gateway. The same goes for Roosevelt Square, Normandy and the mall off Emerson. They'll be linked to the rise and fall of their surroundings. Given the nearby apartments and condos shooting up are built like crap, my guess, if our growth continues to expand outward, probably around 2037. By then, half of the new complexes lining Gate Parkway will be in serious need of repair.
I don't know, but the lifespan of these malls is not infinite. Just look at all the deserted malls from the 70's and 80's around town that were the St. Johns Town Centers of their day.
It just seems like the Southside revolves completely around a mall that in 20 years may be a huge blight, taking the rest of the area with it.
One difference may be that there is an expanding university right next door?
Quote from: Lunican on December 11, 2007, 10:01:16 AM
I don't know, but the lifespan of these malls is not infinite. Just look at all the deserted malls from the 70's and 80's around town that were the St. Johns Town Centers of their day.
It just seems like the Southside revolves completely around a mall that in 20 years may be a huge blight, taking the rest of the area with it.
A website you might find interesting: http://www.deadmalls.com/ (http://www.deadmalls.com/)
Not that I even care about the SJTC, but it would be a smart move to incorporate some nightlife there that's geared to students at UNF. With UNF adding on new housing in the next upcoming years, on-campus life there will be at it's peak.
I just think 52 acres is an awful lot of land for 350,000 square feet. Sounds like it will be about 40 acres of parking, 5 acres of palms and palmettos, and then a small hint of a development. I would rather see them put in some dense mixed use that enhances the area, not detracts from it. If the commuter rail plan goes through, and a spur is run down JTB to the beaches (as many of us, well...I, have advocated for some time), SJTC might start to actually resemble an "urban" development. Plus, think of how nice of a TOD the guv'ment could say they had planned from the SJTC's inception. I wouldn't mind them taking the credit, it would be worth it to see SJTC grow into something regionally significant.
While most malls do have a life span, in some cases they can last for many years. Lenox Square in Atlanta is a good example. Lenox and Gateway were built about the same time, but the difference are the neighborhoods they are built in. Lenox is in a very weathly area that will never decline. Gateway was just the opposite, and it was just a large strip center in the beginning, with no upscale stores. They did land some more upscale stores in the late sixties but they really didn't last very long. Lenox has always been fairly upscale.
Also SJTC is built in a very good area. Granted I agree with Lakelander about the quality of many of the condos and apartments in the area. I looked at a condo in that area earlier this year and was disappointed at the poor quality. But since we are determined to build until every square inch of Jax is gone, I think most of Southside will be maintained. Where else can you go. I agree with Ocklawaha too about 5 Points, Avondale and San Marco, but I think most people in Jax will go to malls over neighborhood shopping areas. National chains don't seem to do the volume they expect in these areas. Chico's in Avondale is a good example. I'm sure the business was good there but not on the level it would be in a big shopping center, so the big guys won't open in those areas very often. So I personally try to shop at the local level first and if it's not there I head to SJTC.
The major difference is Buckhead developed along a single commercial corridor surrounded by established neighborhoods and served by heavy rail for nearly 30 years. The Southside has developed to this date to be more like Smyrna or Snellville. If you look at an aerial, it looks like someone kicked an ant hill, as opposed to one section being more of a central corridor of commerce.
That area of Southside reminds me of what the Emerson and Regency were during their heyday. The development patterns are the same (although Arlington was built to be much denser).
While Duval may build out fairly soon on the Southside, growth will just spread to Northern St. Johns County and the Nocatee area, similar to what happen with Orange Park, Fleming Island and Argyle on the Westside. Since there's nothing special or unique about the development going up in the SJTC area, it will probably fall to new development built out where cheap virgin land is available to house what ever is the latest trend in retail development at that time. Of course, this scenerio is totally dependent on how we handle the sprawl and address mass transit in the future.
Since the condos and houses built out there are basically built with paper mache, it's really set up nicely to become a future slum.
When all of the condos are 20 years old and falling into the ground, who is going to want to live there? Especially when just a "short drive" away there are nice new crappy condos and shopping. It's almost like a disposable neighborhood. Use it up and then just move on to the next thing.
As far as wealthy areas that "will never decline"... I doubt the people that lived in Springfield in 1910 ever could have imagined what it would become in 1980.
I do see the poorly constructed condos and apts falling into disrepair as an anchor that could over time drag down the SJTC. I spend some time in St. Louis that has a nice urban core surrounded by burbs and the older areas were the construction is brick, stone and wood can come back after periods of decay but the 80's malls and apartments are now the outlet centers and lower rent the new version up the street.
If the money the Atlanta developer was using to build the new shopping center on the Southside was somehow coming at the expense of more development in the core, I could see the cause for alarm/concern, but it honestly isn't. It isn't a situation where the developer is saying, "I could either build in an economically proven area next to the Town Center, or I could take a major chance building downtown." It's pretty much right next to the St. Johns Town Center, or it isn't happening at all. To me, all the grumbling and complaining about the Town Center and suburban development is almost counterproductive to the supposed aim. Jacksonville's a big city. There's plenty of room for development both Urban and Suburban. Any development on the south side that brings interest, warm bodies, and most importantly, revenue to Jacksonville is only going to residually help the whole city in the long run. It's delusional to think that the core would somehow be ANY better off if the Town Center didn't exist. It's one thing to comment on shoddy construction and sprawling parking lots, but to take pleasure in and almost root for the idea that the Town Center has the potential to fail down the road, again, seems counterproductive to me. Comparing the Gateway Mall to the Town Center is the very definition of apples and oranges, and believe it or not, not all shopping malls are doomed to failure. The Edison Mall in my hometown (Fort Myers, FL) is a prime example. I grew up shopping there. My parents shopped there growing up. And when I visit town and drop by the mall on the weekend, I still can't find a parking spot anywhere.
What's the old saying, no reason to cut off your nose to spite your face.
SJTC doesn't really hurt downtown and I think most of the vocal opposition would care less, if it were not for constant comparisons of an upscale strip mall with a real urban core.
Anyway, as stated by a few earlier, it really centers around the surrounding neighborhood. The area around Edison Mall is still pretty decent community. The neighborhoods around Gateway and Emerson went down the tubes and the shopping malls located there followed. SJTC's ultimate future will also be tied hand-in-hand with how it's surrounding neighbors and the current demographics age in the future.
I don't think anyone is advocating that this mall should have come downtown. I'm just wondering what the Southside has that will prevent it from the same fate as the Gateway and Emerson areas.
Quote from: Lunican on December 14, 2007, 03:56:04 PM
I don't think anyone is advocating that this mall should have come downtown. I'm just wondering what the Southside has that will prevent it from the same fate as the Gateway and Emerson areas.
Do you not think the location and it's proximity to UNF will help?
I know I'm a little late to the party here, but here goes...
The only reason there even is a SJTC is because of the New Urbanism movement. There is such a demand for the 'small-town' feel that developers and builders are moving toward "building communities" (as if an actual building makes a community) in which we can (supposedly) live, work and play. Being that to afford the homes in that area, you could not work at the local Healthy Way Cafe, makes the whole idea flawed from the get-go, but like them, we'll overlook that point.
The SJTC is a great idea and concept, but quality of life is not sustainable on a conceptual basis, it is only sustainable when ideas and concepts are a reality and people live by a PROVEN set of principles and ideals. Bottom line, building something that looks and feels like small town living does NOT make it small town living. Factually, the SJTC is filled with national chain stores. The same chain stores hocking the same products that you see everyday in Regency, The Avenues, and now ~gulp~ even in places like Avondale and San Marco. When you build something on false ideals, filled with smoke and mirrors, full of trendy stores, it will fall away just like all those before it. Baymeadows is a great example of that.
Here was a once great area filled with money and expensive homes. Close to the wonderfully new and trendy Avenues mall. Remove the golf course, replace the Talbot's full of overly-priced designer wares, and build a SJTC just a little more out of the way than is comfortable and what do you get? A road filled with potholes, businesses that fall out of favor, leave, and keep their deteriorating buildings there to crumble; declining housing prices which attracts lower-income households, which ultimately brings crime. Just come check out the Inn out there whose former glory rivaled that of hotels in Ponte Vedra. It's now home (yes, you can live there now...permanantly) to drug addicts and prostitutes. My kids and I found a crack pipe alongside the road on a walk through the neighborhood one summer afternoon. Fun.
New Stores Announced So Far:
* Golf Galaxy
* Best Buy
* West Marine
* Toys 'R' Us
* Babys 'R' Us
According to their billboard.
Are those stores going in the space next to coscto?
Quote from: Duke on January 23, 2008, 04:29:24 PM
Are those stores going in the space next to coscto?
Yes
www.themarketsattowncenter.com
Quote from: gradco2004 on January 23, 2008, 04:21:32 PM
New Stores Announced So Far:
* Golf Galaxy
* Best Buy
* West Marine
* Toys 'R' Us
* Babys 'R' Us
According to their billboard.
It's good to see new stores to Jacksonville going in there.
Quote from: gradco2004 on January 23, 2008, 04:21:32 PM
New Stores Announced So Far:
* Golf Galaxy
* Best Buy
* West Marine
* Toys 'R' Us
* Babys 'R' Us
According to their billboard.
I noticed West Marine was no longer on the sign.
Now its back!
I hope they put a Home Depot Expo Center by the SJTC eventually.