How To Get A Streetcar System In Jacksonville
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1392970713_TXw5mzP-M.jpg)
Milwaukee provides us with a step-by-step blueprint for implementing a streetcar line in less than five years. What excuse can we come up with now to continue to do nothing to improve fixed-transit connectivity and bring economic redevelopment to downtown and the surrounding neighborhoods?
Full Article
http://www.metrojacksonville.com/article/2011-jul-how-to-get-a-streetcar-system-in-jacksonville
I know I'm warming to the idea.
SOS - Save Our Springfield
SOS- Start Our Streetcar
I'd volunteer to lay a section of track if it goes down Bay St. throgh the flex space. Break it down into pieces that can be seen and open it up to everyone. Make it FUN.
The Amazing Race.
The Amazing streetcar track laying team.
CSX- Where are You?
Make it Happen
What part of our local government is responsible for taking the first step? The Mobility Plan is the Planning Dept's baby - does that mean the ball is in their court?
Quote from: Noone on July 26, 2011, 06:49:08 AM
CSX- Where are You?
We don't need CSX for this baby. We'd be better off staying as far away from them as possible, in regards ROW.
Quote from: dougskiles on July 26, 2011, 07:13:39 AM
What part of our local government is responsible for taking the first step? The Mobility Plan is the Planning Dept's baby - does that mean the ball is in their court?
I'd say JTA opened the door with that prefeasibility study a couple of years ago, most likely after the community began to question the validity of their original BRT plan. The North Florida TPO followed by putting the streetcar/commuter rail projects in the LRTP, which will help us access federal funding if Jax chooses to go that route. The planning department was a huge help by getting council to adopt neighborhood visioning plans, a mobility plan and fee, which can serve as a funding mechanism for capital costs. Milwaukee's experience may serve as a great example of how to generate annual O&M costs to keep a line up and running without raising taxes. So at this point, I'd say the groundwork has been laid and it's time for the Mayor's Office to progress this to the next level, since the concept really isn't a top priority of JTA. However, to do that, I think we're going to have to generate some economic development and job creation numbers to prove that investing in fixed transit is worthwhile for turning downtown and the inner city neighborhoods around.
Yes. I agree the direction needs to come from the Mayor's office at this point for JTA to make it a priority.
Someone needs to bitch-slap JTA real soon.
-Josh
if we could expand the rail we already have downtown, or mix into a comprehensive system, that would be ideal. Something disparate from what exists would only add to the lack of cohesion which is among this city's primary challenges.
In NYC you can transfer from the subway onto a bus, which usually has either going in a direction you want to go, not so here
In regards ROW? I don't get it.
You have to include CSX. Every day we will be reminded by the Administration of PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP.
Wake up in the morning. What will you do today for your PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP. In all due respect Lake. "How Tomorrow Moves.....Just not with CSX in Jacksonville". The offer needs to be extended. In my opinion
I mention the Shipyards location because its a blank canvas. I've participated in two SOS Make it Happen events and once the track is laid I'd be on the phone to John to suggest the landscaping. SOS knows what I'm trying to convey.
Imagine the potential FUN of this project. I'm sure there are companies that would want to hire RR installers. What a combination of all types of experts that can oversee the installation of a streetcar line and once a section is done have it inspected and certified. We will be watching and offering someone a job.
Remember SCAD? Open this up to schools, Neighborhoods, Any company associated with the railroad.
Imagine a Save Our Springfield team.
Imagine a Pub Crawler Team. May start late. Track may be crooked. But you know they will show up and give it 100%. LOL
How development will move knowing that a streetcar line is right next to our St. Johns River our American Heritage River.
Quote from: Noone on July 26, 2011, 08:58:34 AM
In regards ROW? I don't get it.
You have to include CSX. Every day we will be reminded by the Administration of PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP.
Wake up in the morning. What will you do today for your PUBLIC/PRIVATE PARTNERSHIP. In all due respect Lake. "How Tomorrow Moves.....Just not with CSX in Jacksonville". The offer needs to be extended. In my opinion
Why specifically include CSX and not Fidelity, UNF, BCBS, Stein Mart or SJTC? I guess my point is that I want to make sure everyone understands that CSX or any other freight railroad's operations and ROW have nothing to do with the implementation of a streetcar system running on public ROW. I'm not saying that public private partnerships should not be explored. However, I am saying that there's no benefit in cherry picking CSX just because they happen to be a railroad company.
OK, ROW- Right of Way. Sure look at all the potential Downtown Partners. Include the television stations too.
I see what you are saying about streetcar and freight loading.
I've mentioned this in another thread so then who is the potential streetcar company that we would use?
How many companies are there?
Who is the contact person?
Have you or anyone with MJ been in communication with anyone?
I'm on your side. If we are going to get a Streetcar System in Jacksonville is there a company to start with?
As for laying track in the Shipyards......Any thoughts?
There are a million ways to set these things up. For instance, in Dallas the M-Line Streetcar is operated by volunteers. On the other hand, new systems in Charlotte and Milwaukee will be constructed and owned by those city governments, while their local transit authorities will operate them. At this point, it remains to be seen what model would work best for Jacksonville. As we progress with further study, detailed operational issues will be decided depending on the result of information learned from further studies.
What chance does this have of becoming a priority for the mayor?
It is a prioritty on the list of recommendations the Transition Team's Transportation Committee provided to the Mayor
Quote from: fsujax on July 26, 2011, 08:08:58 AM
Yes. I agree the direction needs to come from the Mayor's office at this point for JTA to make it a priority.
Great, now I know who to pester!
Will TransformJax be making a concentrated effort to the mayor? If so, please let us know how we can help.
The only way CSX would be involved is to provide some sort of financial backing due to their location along the proposed sreetcar line. As mentioned above, other employers along the line should be expected to contribute if CSX is.
Just because CSX is a railroad doesn't mean they will get anywhere near the construction or operation of any commuter rail system, let alone streetcars.
I believe the streetcar is #2 on TransformJax's list.
doug...yes, TransForm Jax will be working on streetcar....at the moment, they are focusing on possible layouts for the convention center...but streetcar is in the "on deck circle"
Thanks - I look forward to the updates.
Quote from: Gravity on July 26, 2011, 08:53:41 AM
if we could expand the rail we already have downtown, or mix into a comprehensive system, that would be ideal. Something disparate from what exists would only add to the lack of cohesion which is among this city's primary challenges.
In NYC you can transfer from the subway onto a bus, which usually has either going in a direction you want to go, not so here
WTF? What rail do we "already have?" There isn't ANY municipal rail passenger operation any closer then Tampa or Atlanta, except for some City or Jaxport owned freight trackage along Talleyrand or out on Blount Island, there isn't any municipal rail at all. So its sort of hard to be disparate from something that doesn't exist.
We'd all agree we're not New York City (THANK GOD!), but if your reasoning or excuse is that Jacksonville or any other city can't start a rail project because it won't go where you want to go, then you are defeated before you even try. Imagine if NYC had taken that view back in the 1800's? Today, there would be no rail transit system at all because they would never have started it. Every place has to start somewhere, and this seems to be our hour.
NYC due to geography is primarily a long narrow island or two, ideal for a lineal transit system. Jacksonville is more like a big square with a zigzagging river cutting through the center of it. As a result of the river(s) our developed areas follow equally predictable lineal routes, developed by streetcar, for streetcar... Gee I've got an idea! Let's build STREETCAR! OCKLAWAHA
Ock, I agree, but if we want to be unlike any other city, we need a streetcar that boards a water ferry to help it criss-cross the zig-zagging river.
I've looked but couldn't find any examples.
Think of a regular ferry with steel tracks in the deck to shuttle the streetcar across the river from riverside to san marco or DT to san marco or riverside to DT when traffic is backed up and clogging the shared streets.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 26, 2011, 09:10:00 PM
Ock, I agree, but if we want to be unlike any other city, we need a streetcar that boards a water ferry to help it criss-cross the zig-zagging river.
I've looked but couldn't find any examples.
Think of a regular ferry with steel tracks in the deck to shuttle the streetcar across the river from riverside to san marco or DT to san marco or riverside to DT when traffic is backed up and clogging the shared streets.
That sounds like a good idea, it would be very neat. But, it may drive up the fare.
^ Honestly, I meant it in a gimmicky, tongue-in-cheek-but-would-it-really-work kind of way. I don't know.
IMO, it's cheaper to build a boat than to build a bridge. (or I guess you could drop off passengers at ferry terminals, but what fun would that be?)
It wouldn't be practical since a streetcar still wouldn't be able to cross the FEC tracks at grade on the Southbank. Besides, we already have a river crossing in the Skyway. This is why many believe that extending the Skyway from Kings Avenue to Atlantic Blvd. makes the most sense for investing in fixed transit in the Southbank/San Marco. For anything further out, you'll have commuter rail running on the FEC one day.
I agree with an earlier post that there are many ways to implement a starter system. In San Diego, the long delayed initial streetcar line (Centre City Loop or Silver Line) is to begin in August with only ONE restored PCC! It is hoped that the reappearance of this piece of San Diego's past will excite the community and accelerate the process of expansion. Four more cars are in various states of restoration. The effort has been completely a volunteer affair although MTS allows use of its yards and equipment for ongoing restoration work.
Already, meetings are being held to expand the line to Balboa Park and beyond to North Park, Golden Hill, University Heights, Kensington and Hillcrest. Check out San Diego vintage trolley and San Diego Electric Railway. It is a slog, but once you get started, people will see the benefits and resistance will melt away.
Once the streetcar from Riverside to DT has experienced success, and the Skyway has been extended to Atlantic Blvd, I believe a great location for a streetcar would be on San Jose Blvd from San Marco to Mandarin.
Quote from: dougsandiego on July 27, 2011, 12:32:43 AM
I agree with an earlier post that there are many ways to implement a starter system. In San Diego, the long delayed initial streetcar line (Centre City Loop or Silver Line) is to begin in August with only ONE restored PCC! It is hoped that the reappearance of this piece of San Diego's past will excite the community and accelerate the process of expansion. Four more cars are in various states of restoration. The effort has been completely a volunteer affair although MTS allows use of its yards and equipment for ongoing restoration work.
Already, meetings are being held to expand the line to Balboa Park and beyond to North Park, Golden Hill, University Heights, Kensington and Hillcrest. Check out San Diego vintage trolley and San Diego Electric Railway. It is a slog, but once you get started, people will see the benefits and resistance will melt away.
Interesting. I didn't know that San Diego was working to bring streetcars back. I'm scheduled to be in San Diego August 5-9, so I'll have to check things out.
Quote from: thelakelander on July 26, 2011, 10:19:17 PM
It wouldn't be practical since a streetcar still wouldn't be able to cross the FEC tracks at grade on the Southbank. Besides, we already have a river crossing in the Skyway. This is why many believe that extending the Skyway from Kings Avenue to Atlantic Blvd. makes the most sense for investing in fixed transit in the Southbank/San Marco. For anything further out, you'll have commuter rail running on the FEC one day.
The only 'streetcar' line in the Southbank that makes any sense with regards to the FEC RY tracks is one that would run east m/l alongside I-95 or across the JEA site and pick up Atlantic/Beach in Saint Nicholas. From Saint Nic on eastward there are no obstructions and several areas of broads medians. I agree though that San Marco is a complete wash. OCKLAWAHA
Also, check: sdmts.com/streetcarstudy.asp for expansion information.
I believe once any city gets a small line built, people see the possibilities such systems offers for economic expansion and revitalization.
There is a tipping point one the skyway has not crossed. It can't be too small a line or the potential won't shine. As soon as it starts connecting people to where they want to go sparks will fly. If Avondale has a streetcar through Riverside and Downtown then San Marco will demand the skyway come to the square and bang our system looks pretty good.
Quote from: Non-RedNeck Westsider on July 26, 2011, 09:10:00 PM
Ock, I agree, but if we want to be unlike any other city, we need a streetcar that boards a water ferry to help it criss-cross the zig-zagging river.
I've looked but couldn't find any examples.
Think of a regular ferry with steel tracks in the deck to shuttle the streetcar across the river from riverside to san marco or DT to san marco or riverside to DT when traffic is backed up and clogging the shared streets.
(http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/ramon-2.jpg) (http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/ramon-3.jpg)
(http://people.virginia.edu/~ggg9y/ramon-1.jpg)
Been there, done that... LOL. Here you go, the car ferry Ramon, from the Sacramento Northern Railway, an electric interurban system that once ran from Chico, in Northern California south through Sacramento to the San Francisco Bay area. While not exactly a streetcar operation, most of the interurban lines also operated smaller city cars on their networks at various urban points.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1027/865920809_9badc482fc.jpg)
Here are some of the last remaining sections of the footings the track once was mounted upon. This is very near the end of where the tracks met the ferry slip at the Sacramento River. Taken from the levee on Montezuma slough just north of Pittsburg CA looking north east.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1279/852163651_6211face4d.jpg)
Near the end of the tracks at Molena CA, part of the Northern section. Needless to say it has been a long while since any train passed this way! The tracks ended about 25 yards down the line from here. The poles are what used to hold the overhead line for the electric trolleys
Milwaukee Streetcar Update: Basically, the county (Milwaukee County) doesn't like the idea of the city (Milwaukee) building a streetcar. They want the streetcar's money to go to buses. Sounds a lot like Jacksonville except they aren't consolidated.
QuoteMilwaukee: Panel Rejects Moving Streetcar Money
A Milwaukee County Board committee Wednesday rejected a resolution that would have urged Milwaukee city officials to help shift federal funding from the planned streetcar line to cash-strapped county buses.
QuoteThe city's $54.9 million was part of a $91.5 million pot of federal aid, the last remnant of $289 million appropriated some 20 years ago for a Milwaukee-area transit project. At the urging of Mayor Tom Barrett, the streetcar's chief advocate, Congress handed the city 60% of the cash for the streetcar and gave the rest to the county for buses.
Barrett has noted that Borkowski didn't mention the county's unused $36.6 million share. Borkowski claimed the county had already spent that money on new buses.
But Abele's aides confirmed none of the county's share had been spent. Abele and his predecessor, Gov. Scott Walker, tried unsuccessfully to use those funds for bus operating expenses and were rebuffed by federal transit officials. Walker then sought to use the money for a bus rapid transit plan rejected by supervisors. At this point, county officials have said the money can only be used to buy buses.
Mayo and Borkowski disputed claims that the money couldn't be used for anything else. Mayo noted Congress had previously changed the legislation on how the money could be used.
Borkowski also claimed Barrett wanted the county to pay the operating costs of the streetcar. Barrett has said he wants to contract with the transit system - which is managed by a nonprofit company - to run the streetcar, but operating costs would be paid by fares, parking revenue and advertising.
Nick DeMarsh, a representative of the Milwaukee Transit Riders Union, said Borkowski's resolution "makes a mockery of existing bus service and the streetcar," because it was clear the federal money couldn't be used for bus operating expenses and that Barrett had not asked the county to pay for operating the streetcar.
full article: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/county-panel-rejects-effort-to-shift-city-streetcar-funds-to-buses-132154768.html
I just dont understand this city. We are the biggest city land wise in the United States. We are sprawled out of control, and the only public transportation we have is the city bus? DUMB DUMB DUMB
Quote from: thelakelander on October 20, 2011, 03:18:50 PM
Milwaukee Streetcar Update: Basically, the county (Milwaukee County) doesn't like the idea of the city (Milwaukee) building a streetcar. They want the streetcar's money to go to buses. Sounds a lot like Jacksonville except they aren't consolidated.
QuoteMilwaukee: Panel Rejects Moving Streetcar Money
A Milwaukee County Board committee Wednesday rejected a resolution that would have urged Milwaukee city officials to help shift federal funding from the planned streetcar line to cash-strapped county buses.
QuoteThe city's $54.9 million was part of a $91.5 million pot of federal aid, the last remnant of $289 million appropriated some 20 years ago for a Milwaukee-area transit project. At the urging of Mayor Tom Barrett, the streetcar's chief advocate, Congress handed the city 60% of the cash for the streetcar and gave the rest to the county for buses.
Barrett has noted that Borkowski didn't mention the county's unused $36.6 million share. Borkowski claimed the county had already spent that money on new buses.
But Abele's aides confirmed none of the county's share had been spent. Abele and his predecessor, Gov. Scott Walker, tried unsuccessfully to use those funds for bus operating expenses and were rebuffed by federal transit officials. Walker then sought to use the money for a bus rapid transit plan rejected by supervisors. At this point, county officials have said the money can only be used to buy buses.
Mayo and Borkowski disputed claims that the money couldn't be used for anything else. Mayo noted Congress had previously changed the legislation on how the money could be used.
Borkowski also claimed Barrett wanted the county to pay the operating costs of the streetcar. Barrett has said he wants to contract with the transit system - which is managed by a nonprofit company - to run the streetcar, but operating costs would be paid by fares, parking revenue and advertising.
Nick DeMarsh, a representative of the Milwaukee Transit Riders Union, said Borkowski's resolution "makes a mockery of existing bus service and the streetcar," because it was clear the federal money couldn't be used for bus operating expenses and that Barrett had not asked the county to pay for operating the streetcar.
full article: http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/county-panel-rejects-effort-to-shift-city-streetcar-funds-to-buses-132154768.html
I'd expect that this kind of thing happens in a lot of cities. The smart ones will find a compromise to make good ideas work. Less smart ones will compromise the ideas entirely and end up with nothing.
Quote from: Tacachale on October 20, 2011, 03:52:56 PM
I'd expect that this kind of thing happens in a lot of cities. The smart ones will find a compromise to make good ideas work. Less smart ones will compromise the ideas entirely and end up with nothing.
Then there is the just plain stupid ones that shoot down the funding mechanism before it sees the light of day, and won't even hear the ideas that were proposed.
As Stephendare has said, at least we have half of a bus system that doesn't work. Hey Stephendare, pretty soon you'll be constricted to two lanes on our boulevards while the hourly buses have their own private BRT lane. And our BRT lanes will be under the Skyway or next to our railroads... Simply brilliant.
¿Qué pasa? I'm really starting to miss Medellin, at least they've entered the 21St century.
OCKLAWAHA