Metro Jacksonville

Okay Jaxson's here is you chance to be heard. The last readers poll was shared with the Transportation Transition Team and found its way to the highest levels of city government. The message for: 1. Streetcars, 2. Skyway Completion, was loud and clear and opened more then a few eyes. In fact the poll became the buzz.

Let's do it again and tell them what you really think of the JRTC, I will personally share this information with the City of Jacksonville, including your (printable - civil) comments.

OCKLAWAHA

I voted other.  I think it should be condensed signficantly by eliminating the office building and all structured parking for starters.  In addition all mode operations should be no further north than the existing skyway station on Bay Street.  If they can fit into the existing building with the convention center still in place?  Fine.  If they can't, then build the bus platforms in the convention center's parking lot south of Bay or the strip of blocks around the skyway station bounded by I-95, Forsyth, Lee and Bay Streets.  In all options, the existing building's concourse and lobby should serve as a shared terminal for all modes.  I'd also favor setting a budget under $50 million and forcing the creation of a final solution that does not exceed that number.

One building/complex, one block.  Two at most if absolutely essential.  As MJ articles and posters have proven ad nauseum, there is absolutely no reason it can't be done and there are PLENTY of other examples - especially from peer or near-peer cities - of how it can and should be done.  It ain't rocket science.

I had to go with "Other"...while the complex should be condensed significantly, I'm not sold that it all has to be (or even should be) in one building....I mean, the reality is the Skyway is already across the street, so using that block more fully is fine by me.

With the exception of the skyway, everything should be right next to the terminal (the convention center would be demolished). It's all been said before, but one large waiting room for all the modes of transportation. Put the bus terminals (including JTA) right behind Jacksonville Terminal on Bay St and connect the skyway with a skybridge. Get rid of the office building and don't add more parking. Keep the plaza where it was.

I like the suggestion on another thread about moving the convention center, temporarily, to the hotel space.  My guess is 'what'll we do with the convention center?' will be treated like a bigger problem than it really is, thus holding up progress on a decision on the JRTC.  We can pull out of the convention center game--that we're arguably not really in anyway--until we have a reason for people to choose Jacksonville for their conventions.  I also like the idea of giving them a price ceiling; it may force some actual thought be placed into the design.  Like you guys say all the time, there's already plenty of vacant office space and parking downtown, so there's absolutely no need to make more.

Quote from: kells904 on July 23, 2011, 10:52:42 AM
I like the suggestion on another thread about moving the convention center, temporarily, to the hotel space.  My guess is 'what'll we do with the convention center?' will be treated like a bigger problem than it really is, thus holding up progress on a decision on the JRTC.  We can pull out of the convention center game--that we're arguably not really in anyway--until we have a reason for people to choose Jacksonville for their conventions.  I also like the idea of giving them a price ceiling; it may force some actual thought be placed into the design.  Like you guys say all the time, there's already plenty of vacant office space and parking downtown, so there's absolutely no need to make more.

I totally agree.  The convention center should not be an obstacle to building a JRTC that makes sense.  I few months ago, I recommended that we at least move Amtrak to the Jacksonville Terminal building and then begin to move the convention center as plans unfold.  Another poster said that Amtrak should stay in its Amshack on Clifford Lane until the convention center moves.  Talk about stalling tactics.  Waiting for the convention center issue to be resolved will delay any real JRTC progress for another generation.   On the bright side, I will be eligible for a senior discount when I take Amtrak out of a downtown train station...

I voted with the majority here, keep it all in the historic station. REASON? The Skyway station is already across the street so it doesn't have to be built. There is nothing in keeping it in the original station to prevent platforms or curb cuts so we could line Bay and Forsyth to for that matter, with buses.

covered platforms, curb cuts, turnouts, parking, railroad track, pedestrian subways and concourses are not "new stations," merely the accouterments for one. We certainly don't have to build anything in the PO Box space and the only question would be how much of the 'box' would we want to remove before enclosing the balance into a more condensed building.

OCKLAWAHA

I vote to move the Bus Station next to the existing AMTRAK Station.  Demolish the existing Bus Station and use the land for additional parking.  This will relieve the pressure for parking at the Landing.  This also helps to keep the bums and lowlifes away from downtown.

Send JTA to the top of the King Street Garage for their Operations Center.  We moved 1200 persons to modular buildings on Fort Belvoir, Virginia at an extremely low cost.  The buildings were made in Georgia and extremely energy efficient.  We set them in place with cranes.   There is more than the 60,000 Square feet JTA is requesting available on the top floor of the parking Garage.  I firmly believe that figure is bloated by a factor of two.

Jacksonville's Downtown is long gone. A better move would be to demolish the old buildings and use the spaces generated for open space or a planned redevelopment with parking as other areas of the city have to offer.

John Malseed
771-6343

No, no.  The JTA offices should be in modular buildings at Cecil Field, but the employees should be required to park in the garage downtown and ride a bus to Cecil.

Quote from: malseedj on July 25, 2011, 09:52:30 AM
I vote to move the Bus Station next to the existing AMTRAK Station.  Demolish the existing Bus Station and use the land for additional parking.  This will relieve the pressure for parking at the Landing.  This also helps to keep the bums and lowlifes away from downtown.

Good grief!  I'm sorry, but the last thing DT needs is more surface parking.  I'm in the few, but I see the current Greyhound bus station as one of the only spots in DT with actually life.  Also, its time to move past the idea of relating public transportation to bums and lowlifes.  Removing Greyhound from the current location will have no impact on the amount of vagrants in downtown.  Here are a couple of Greyhound stations in peer cities.  Notice a difference in quality then what we have locally?

Milwaukee
(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231155755_tQXcZ-M.jpg)

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/photos/1231152609_w249k-M.jpg)

Salt Lake City
(http://www.metrojacksonville.com/photos/thumbs/lrg-4717-delts145-ssp-4.jpg)

Fort Worth
(http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicc/cfiles13533.jpg)

St. Louis
(http://media.connectingstlouis.com/500/st-louis-mo-transportation-center.jpg)

(http://www.bdcnetwork.com/photo/213/213185-bdc0902npp4b.jpg)

QuoteSend JTA to the top of the King Street Garage for their Operations Center.  We moved 1200 persons to modular buildings on Fort Belvoir, Virginia at an extremely low cost.  The buildings were made in Georgia and extremely energy efficient.  We set them in place with cranes.   There is more than the 60,000 Square feet JTA is requesting available on the top floor of the parking Garage.  I firmly believe that figure is bloated by a factor of two.

It would be cheaper and better for DT to send them to an existing empty office building in the Northbank.  There is plenty of cheap space available and having more employees clustered within a compact setting will help the struggling small businesses in DT.

QuoteJacksonville's Downtown is long gone. A better move would be to demolish the old buildings and use the spaces generated for open space or a planned redevelopment with parking as other areas of the city have to offer.

That would be worse thing to do.  In fact, we've been doing exactly this for the last three decades and things have gotten worse.  The best thing would do would be to leave Jax city limits and seriously take a look how just about every other city in this country has turned their downtown around.  Btw, if we can't turn DT around, there's really no hope for Jax.  There isn't a major city in the US today that is prospering economically with a semi-vibrant downtown.  We're mistaken if we believe Jacksonville can be the first.

no more tearing anything down for parking! period. Also, JTA or any other agency (TPO, FDOT, Highway Patrol, etc) that was slated to fill the TMC isn't moving into any new office space anytime soon, so move on past that one. Link the greyhound, Skyway and rail terminals as efficiently as possible. I really like some of the above samples.

Quote from: fsujax on July 25, 2011, 10:52:28 AM
no more tearing anything down for parking! period. Also, JTA or any other agency (TPO, FDOT, Highway Patrol, etc) that was slated to fill the TMC isn't moving into any new office space anytime soon, so move on past that one. Link the greyhound, Skyway and rail terminals as efficiently as possible. I really like some of the above samples.

+1

Quote from: thelakelander on July 25, 2011, 10:32:44 AM
Notice a difference in quality then what we have locally?

If by "quality" you mean "no one there" then, yeah, I guess so.

Quality in terms of atmosphere and cleanliness.  Here is an image of Milwaukee's with people there.

(http://photos.metrojacksonville.com/Learning-From/Milwaukee-WI-March-2011/DSC0115/1231147310_NvdiZ-M.jpg)

Greetings all, I'm home in New Jersey visiting family. That's why I've been out of the conversation, but this issue is important to me.

Echoing popular sentiment,  JTA needs to just forget about building office space, fill up the empty buildings we already have, unless there are prospects for other companies to move in. 121 Atlantic Place would be perfect. I was in there a few months ago; And they said they had only one tenant. JTA can easily fill that building!

And for the love of God, Please tear down the POCC! Replace the huge eyesore of a parking lot with tracks, as it was before!

Use the steal locomotive that sits there and rusts away as a living museum. Think of a new tourist attraction, steaming around Jax. Just think of the heads this would turn, especially for people that can see it from I-95. 

Quote from: stephendare on July 25, 2011, 12:56:53 PM

Quote from: malseedj on July 25, 2011, 09:52:30 AM
I vote to move the Bus Station next to the existing AMTRAK Station.  Demolish the existing Bus Station and use the land for additional parking.  This will relieve the pressure for parking at the Landing.  This also helps to keep the bums and lowlifes away from downtown.

Send JTA to the top of the King Street Garage for their Operations Center.  We moved 1200 persons to modular buildings on Fort Belvoir, Virginia at an extremely low cost.  The buildings were made in Georgia and extremely energy efficient.  We set them in place with cranes.   There is more than the 60,000 Square feet JTA is requesting available on the top floor of the parking Garage.  I firmly believe that figure is bloated by a factor of two.

Jacksonville's Downtown is long gone. A better move would be to demolish the old buildings and use the spaces generated for open space or a planned redevelopment with parking as other areas of the city have to offer.

John Malseed
771-6343

John,

Downtown isnt long gone, but it is in its present state exactly because everytime the issue comes up, someone suggests exactly this kind of nonsense.

You simply cannot demolish your way back to success.

If all it required was a big empty space, then the mohave desert would be the biggest metropolis that mankind has ever known.

And Downtown already has no lack of parking.  The Landing's situation is dedicated parking.

I voted other, primarily because of the convention center issue. I'd like to see the transportation center condensed (and the price reduced) as much as possible, but only with the understanding that the convention center may not be moving out of the building. We shouldn't force a plan that relies on the city coughing up millions it doesn't have for a new convention center, in order to save money in a transportation center.

If all the stations can be put in the same building with the convention center still there, great. If not, condense where possible outside.

I believe we can do without a convention center for a few years if need be. Afterall, we still have the fairgrounds with a big sprawlling building on it. The POCC just doesn't go with the old train station. See my opinion above.

Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2011, 02:18:53 PM
I voted other, primarily because of the convention center issue. I'd like to see the transportation center condensed (and the price reduced) as much as possible, but only with the understanding that the convention center may not be moving out of the building. We shouldn't force a plan that relies on the city coughing up millions it doesn't have for a new convention center, in order to save money in a transportation center.

If all the stations can be put in the same building with the convention center still there, great. If not, condense where possible outside.

As it is we only have a half rate, disfunctional "convention center" and if we followed your suggestion we'd have a half rate station AND a half rate convention center. Fact is we may not have the millions needed to build the JRTC complex, but the cost of ignoring this situation, doing nothing or doing only another half rate job will last for generations. We've got one shot at getting this right and I'm convinced that at this moment neither the COJ, JTA nor The PO's handlers have a clue what to do.

OCKLAWAHA

Condensed and shelved for a couple of years unless Congress approves another multi-billion transportation initiative and we put together a team that can present a package to Congress with local public support, ensuring we get something.

Atlanta is using private developers to redevelop/rebuild a union station and surrounding area.  We are putting to vote a transit only SPLOST tax next year.  We did receive the largest sum of any TIGER II grants, but only after we failed miserably in receiving anything in the TIGER I grants.  In other words, at this point there is a ton of public support and need for more rail and tolled HOV lanes, and a better Amtrak station to be built downtown, and we are not relying on our state or the feds for any of it.  The state has never really supported transit in Atlanta and the feds have, but it's getting harder and harder to receive fed money and competition is fierce.

I question how Jacksonville is going to afford this without federal or state money, of which we have little chance of getting at this point (most cities have little chance of getting anything at this point in time).  What are our absolute priorities right now and is it on the table to either raise taxes for such projects (yikes, that is not happening), or is it on the table to gin up support and put a transit SPLOST tax up to vote (A LOT of support would have to be raised and people might view it as a breaking of Mayor Brown's promises, even if it is a public initiative and not from the mayor's office).

For seeking federal money, should we focus on public transit or should we focus on the port?  We'll have to choose which one is more important to us because we may get neither and we may get one.  I believe the port is more important for Jacksonville's economy at this point in time.

And, why not work on low-cost methods for improving our bus system first?  It's by far the worst bus system I have ever seen and there are so many ways we can help it, a) by getting people like Bill Brinton out of the way somehow.

I think until we master our bus service, we have no duty trying for something much bigger.  Right now our density is at a max high enough for hour long headways on bus service on some corridors.  We need to get density up a little, or at least heavily prepare for and promote higher density so that we can justify permanent rail transit and recover expenses with a higher tax base due to newly built higher density.  We need better stations and better routes so that more people will actually ride the busses.  BTW, Jacksonville has the nicest cop cars and nicest busses I have ever seen.  We really spend money on all the wrong things.  Unfortunately right now, the busses are even emptier than they are nice/clean.

Quote from: simms3 on July 25, 2011, 08:44:17 PM
I question how Jacksonville is going to afford this without federal or state money, of which we have little chance of getting at this point (most cities have little chance of getting anything at this point in time).

With the bloated price tag of $180 million, nothing is going to happen.  They've been struggling to get funding for this for well over two decades now.  There's no reason to believe anyone will find the federal pot of gold at the end of the rainbow now.  Imo, significantly cutting the scale down would help get this whale of a project off the ground.

QuoteFor seeking federal money, should we focus on public transit or should we focus on the port?  We'll have to choose which one is more important to us because we may get neither and we may get one.  I believe the port is more important for Jacksonville's economy at this point in time.

I agree here, although I'm not completely sold on our port being becoming the container mecca some think it will grow into if we come up with $800 million to dredge the river to 48-50' deep.

QuoteAnd, why not work on low-cost methods for improving our bus system first?  It's by far the worst bus system I have ever seen and there are so many ways we can help it, a) by getting people like Bill Brinton out of the way somehow.

Yes, there are several improvements we can do right now.  Reissuing that bus shelter RFP would be a great start in improving the system.  Streamlining the DT loops and implementing a no-frills version of BRT through system redesign (instead of waiting on millions from the FTA) would be others.

QuoteI think until we master our bus service, we have no duty trying for something much bigger.  Right now our density is at a max high enough for hour long headways on bus service on some corridors.  We need to get density up a little, or at least heavily prepare for and promote higher density so that we can justify permanent rail transit and recover expenses with a higher tax base due to newly built higher density.

I disagree here.  You will rarely find examples of cities that built density before investing in fixed transit.  If you want density, invest in the infrastructure that stimulates that style of growth.  Recent LRT/streetcar projects in places like Salt Lake City, Charlotte, Phoenix, Dallas, Tucson and now Detroit are all examples of this.  Luckily, we are putting some funding mechanisms (mobility fee) in place that will enable us to get a starter corridor or two out of the ground this decade without having to raise taxes.

QuoteWe need better stations and better routes so that more people will actually ride the busses.  BTW, Jacksonville has the nicest cop cars and nicest busses I have ever seen.  We really spend money on all the wrong things.  Unfortunately right now, the busses are even emptier than they are nice/clean.

I think our bus system is stretched to thin.  I'd endorse giving up on trying to provide bus service in some far flung areas of the city in favor of using our existing resources to improve areas where we're likely to get higher ridership.

Get rid of bus service in Mandarin, Tinseltown, Gate Parkway, Baymeadows and JTB. These are areas where people have money, and therefore, do not ride. These areas have the most anti transit, anti pedestrian people in all of Jax. Just stop bus services in this part of town and bring the buses to bare in places where they're needed more.

Quote from: urbaknight on July 26, 2011, 12:35:20 AM
Get rid of bus service in Mandarin, Tinseltown, Gate Parkway, Baymeadows and JTB. These are areas where people have money, and therefore, do not ride. These areas have the most anti transit, anti pedestrian people in all of Jax. Just stop bus services in this part of town and bring the buses to bare in places where they're needed more.

so basically your argument is to continue serving only the transit dependent population?

That's no way to build a better transit system...and I have news for you....most people that have no other option ride the bus anyway regardless of how infrequent or inconvenient the service might be....what should happen here is increased ridership such that more revenue comes in...which then allows for service expansion (more routes and/or more frequency)

Quote from: urbaknight on July 26, 2011, 12:35:20 AM
Get rid of bus service in Mandarin, Tinseltown, Gate Parkway, Baymeadows and JTB. These are areas where people have money, and therefore, do not ride. These areas have the most anti transit, anti pedestrian people in all of Jax. Just stop bus services in this part of town and bring the buses to bare in places where they're needed more.

That would lead to less people using it. A few months back, there was an article in the T-U about JTA. One person lived on the Northside but worked on the Southside. I'm pretty sure he's not alone. Cutting bus service to those areas of town will do more damage to the bus system.

What needs to happen is streamlining bus service by eliminating route duplication.  Eliminating duplication on certain corridors will allow for better service utilization and frequencies in other areas.

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 25, 2011, 07:27:08 PM

Quote from: Tacachale on July 25, 2011, 02:18:53 PM
I voted other, primarily because of the convention center issue. I'd like to see the transportation center condensed (and the price reduced) as much as possible, but only with the understanding that the convention center may not be moving out of the building. We shouldn't force a plan that relies on the city coughing up millions it doesn't have for a new convention center, in order to save money in a transportation center.

If all the stations can be put in the same building with the convention center still there, great. If not, condense where possible outside.

As it is we only have a half rate, disfunctional "convention center" and if we followed your suggestion we'd have a half rate station AND a half rate convention center. Fact is we may not have the millions needed to build the JRTC complex, but the cost of ignoring this situation, doing nothing or doing only another half rate job will last for generations. We've got one shot at getting this right and I'm convinced that at this moment neither the COJ, JTA nor The PO's handlers have a clue what to do.

OCKLAWAHA

It's not my "suggestion", it's the reality of the situation. If we don't have the millions for a transpiration center that's been in the works for years, we certainly don't have millions to build a new building for a convention center that's not working to begin with.

I'm with you that we should never do a half rate job. But if your definition of doing it right includes dropping millions we don't have to move the convention center just to free up space, you've lost me. I'd potentially be okay with getting rid of the convention center for the time being, but until that's on the table, work with what we have and condense where we can.

I took the bus to the sjtc area, on Gate Parkway with a friend that lives there; And no one was on it. There were three people the whole hour. People in that area simply don't ride the bus, it's beneath them. The only reason my friend was on it was cuz she had a dui.

Ok, here's an idea that might work. Instead of using the regular buses, they could use  the shorter buses. In New Jersey, we have buses that are only half the size of the standard buses. And I think they have better fuel economy as well.

The entire system needs to be revamped - period.  You can't eliminate services in an area just because too few people use it.  You have to have better service, which would encourage more people to use it.

NRWs (very basic) fix to the JTA system: 

Eliminate the DT loops for all busses.  You would reduce the headtimes anywhere from 8-18 minutes each way. 

Coordinate the routes to utilize the main hubs with 10-15 minute headways along the main corridors and use the smaller busses as feeders to loop around the area.  Yes, you increase transfers, but if I have to transfer 4 times and it saves me 30-45 minutes - I'm all for it.  But they have to have the coordination down pat.

Use the Express Routes for just that - Express.  The Beaches Express should have 2 Stops - Regency and the Beach - that's it.  The OP Express should have 3 stops - Blanding/103rd, OP Mall, K-Mart.   Air Express - 2 Stops -  RCMP & JIA.   An Avenues Express - 3 Stops - Phillips at University, Phillips @ Baymeadows & Regency Mall - there may be others, but this is just a basic idea

Force people on the skyway.  (See eliminating DT loop) - Terminating the bus-line at the proposed JRTC could do that as well, but a usable DT loop (<10 minute loop) would have to be created to cater to all of the workers east of Hogan. 

This can all be acheived WITHOUT SPENDING ANY ADDITIONAL MONEY!  Everything is in place except for the leadership to make it happen.