Metro Jacksonville

Dockery: Scott’s journey to the dark side is complete
Uncategorized â€" posted by aaron deslatte on July, 1 2011 1:05 PM


TALLAHASSEE â€" Sen. Paula Dockery, a Lakeland Republican who sat on Gov. Rick Scott’s transition team, released a scathing response to his decision to green-light SunRail today, saying he had completed a “transformation from businessman to political insider.”

Dockery, a longtime supporter of high-speed rail who has been one of the fiercest SunRail critics, said the governor had made a decision to “betray the trust of the conservative electorate who put him in office.”

Here’s her full release:

“This morning, Governor Scott had his Secretary of Transportation announce that he will betray the trust of the conservative electorate who put him in office by moving forward with the least cost-efficient commuter rail project in the nation.  This decision has completed the governor’s transformation from businessman to political insider.

When the SunRail/CSX commuter project is viewed from a purely business vantage point, the project falls so far below what a savvy business owner would accept that it is quite baffling.

It is unclear if when making the decision the governor had a change of heart, if he simply succumbed to the desires of the big money special interests, or if he has a severe case of amnesia and thought that he was supposed to be representing CSX instead of Florida’s taxpayers. Governor Scott’s general counsel, a former CSX executive, admitted to giving blatantly false financial facts regarding High Speed Rail in front of the Florida Supreme Court. For that reason, it is overwhelmingly disappointing but not altogether surprising that the facts about SunRail, a sacred cow of special interests, would be ignored and the decision would be based upon arguments put forward by highly paid public relations consultants, using Floridians tax dollars.

The facts are as follows:

nationwide, this is the lowest rated project for cost-effectiveness by the federal government, low ridership estimates, excessive liability is transferred from a for-profit corporation onto all Florida citizens, and it is a blank check waiting to be written by the taxpayers for any and all cost-overruns and operating subsidies.

While ‘warnings’ were given to the local governments during Tuesday’s dog and pony show, this fact remains: the agreement between the federal government and the State of Florida clearly places the financial responsibility for all but $300 million of a $2.6 billion project squarely on the backs of Florida taxpayers.”

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/2011/07/dockery-scotts-journey-to-the-dark-side-is-complete.html


How blatently ironic! What was it again that Scott repeated over and over again about HSR?

"The state would be on the hook for cost overruns," which in the case of HSR was patently untrue.

Now, for Sunrail, Rick Scott is absolutely willing to put the state on the hook for $2.3 billion!!!!!

Basically, you are saying that it should be the other way around. Kill the Sunrail, but re-plan the HSR and approve it.

Florida, The Dysfunctional State (Send the "Sunshine State" back to California, please)

-Josh

Quote from: wsansewjs on July 01, 2011, 01:38:53 PM
Basically, you are saying that it should be the other way around. Kill the Sunrail, but re-plan the HSR and approve it.

Florida, The Dysfunctional State (Send the "Sunshine State" back to California, please)

-Josh

So true!!

Florida's ($2.6 billion) HSR monies primarily went to CA. That's the kind of sunshine gift CA welcomes with open arms!!!

QuoteDockery, a longtime supporter of high-speed rail who has been one of the fiercest SunRail critics, said the governor had made a decision to “betray the trust of the conservative electorate who put him in office.”

Why would someone be for the HSR as planned but against the commuter rail in Orlando? The latter seems a lot more useful to me.

Quote from: danem on July 01, 2011, 02:08:51 PM

QuoteDockery, a longtime supporter of high-speed rail who has been one of the fiercest SunRail critics, said the governor had made a decision to “betray the trust of the conservative electorate who put him in office.”

Why would someone be for the HSR as planned but against the commuter rail in Orlando? The latter seems a lot more useful to me.

The two are not comparable.

1. One will benefit 2,000 commuters per day (Sunrail), whereas the other primarily relies on tourist ridership of 3 million per year which translates roughly to almost 30,000 riders per day

2. Sunrail is primarily paid for by state monies, whereas 95% of construction costs of HSR would be paid for by federal dollars.

So which one serves more people and costs our state least?

Aha, it's HSR!!!

There is no reason to for the discussion to be HSR or Sunrail. They would have complimented one another if they were both built.  Yes the HSR designs needed to be improved but the rfp had not gone out yet so we do not even know how great it could have been.  Sunrail is a good state plan HSR is an ok national plan.  The Governor probably only will sign off on Suntrail to cover his foolishness of killing HSR.  Which he did to sway the tea party and be anti Obama not on the projects merits. Even if you do not like the HSR plan you have to admit it was foolish to kill it weeks before the private sector was allowed to weigh in.

Quote from: FayeforCure on July 01, 2011, 02:18:25 PM
1. One will benefit 2,000 commuters per day (Sunrail), whereas the other primarily relies on tourist ridership of 3 million per year which translates roughly to almost 30,000 riders per day

What 3 Million tourists would be riding HSR between Tampa and Orlando?  I don't see that.  If you're in Orlando for vacation why would you want to go to Tampa?  What is there really to do there? Not much.  I could see people riding it to Cocoa Beach, but they train would have to go right out to the beach.

I thought HSR was for supposedly people commuting from Tampa to Orlando anyway?

Personally I think the first HSR line in FL needs to service the east coast I-95 corridor from Miami to points north out of Florida to bring the tourists in.  If you drive your car on vacation to Florida why would you want to get on a train and ride to Tampa or wherever leaving your car behind?  You wouldn't.

The HSR line was envisioned to connect South Florida with Orlando and Tampa.  The Orlando/Tampa segment got the nod first because it was shorter and cheaper to get off the ground.  However, the Orlando/Miami segment would have began construction and completed soon after the first segment was completed.  Holisitically, that thing would have been just fine with the connection between Orlando and South Florida as a part of it.  Unfortunately, we can't see past the trees when we plan and destroyed the thing before fully evaluating the pros and cons.

Yeah I'm sure a connection to So Fla from Orlando would have helped a lot with ridership.  But I still think that we need to start with bringing people in from up north, maybe Atlanta, maybe straight to Orlando.  Then focus on building feeder lines out from there. 

While I agree (well not about going from ATL to Orlando by bypassing Jax), that could have been done in addition to dead HSR plan.

Quote from: JeffreyS on July 01, 2011, 03:06:35 PM
There is no reason to for the discussion to be HSR or Sunrail. They would have complimented one another if they were both built.  Yes the HSR designs needed to be improved but the rfp had not gone out yet so we do not even know how great it could have been.  Sunrail is a good state plan HSR is an ok national plan.  The Governor probably only will sign off on Suntrail to cover his foolishness of killing HSR.  Which he did to sway the tea party and be anti Obama not on the projects merits. Even if you do not like the HSR plan you have to admit it was foolish to kill it weeks before the private sector was allowed to weigh in.

As long as FHSR ignores Orlando's metro area and runs from it's airport, to an amusement park, to a parking garage, it would NEVER see 3 million passengers. In fact I'd bet money that it would be the biggest gift to CSX in history because within 10 years it's weed choked tracks would be good for nothing else. NOBODY is going to travel from most anywhere in the Orlando metro to that damn airport in order to go to Tampa. The numbers were completely pie-in-the-sky, while Sunrail's are understated. We'll never know what the RFP would have shown but the state had already made it clear that it's stupid freeway plan, from airport to garage was the way it was going to be built. FHSR would have brought down the house on rail projects for the next 40 years, giving the Republican-Tea Party types all the ammunition they needed to kill HSR, kill AMTRAK, and Kill COMMUTER RAIL.

OCKLAWAHA

^I believe commuter rail with express trains, in the center of I-4, would have worked.  However, instead of 5 stops between the cities, you would need at least 17 local stops. There's a string of major attractions immediately adjacent to I-4 between DT Tampa and Orlando's airport to make it worthwhile.  In addition, it follows existing commuter patterns between the three metros.  Just off the top of my head, here is a list of stops along the dead HSR corridor that would have made commuter rail along the same path feasible, imo.

(From DT Tampa to Orlando International Airport)

DT Tampa
Ybor City
Seminole Hard Rock Casino/Florida State Fairgrounds/Amphitheater
County Road 579 (Seffner)
Thonotosassa Road (Plant City)
County Line Road (Plant City/Lakeland)
US 98 North (Lakeland Square Mall) - (Lakeland)
USF Poly (Lakeland)
US 27/Posner Town Center (Four Corners)
Champions Gate/Reunion Resort
Celebration
Walt Disney World/Downtown Disney (Lake Buena Vista)
Orlando Premium Outlets/Palm Parkway (Lake Buena Vista)
Orange County Convention Center/Sea World/I-Drive (Orlando)
Florida Mall (Orlando)
Orlando International Airport (Orlando)

^That's a powerful list of existing destinations within walking distance of I-4.  Couple that with infill TOD and you have yourself a winner.  Want to go into downtown Orlando?  A quick switch to Sunrail at a Secaucus Junction style station near 527, will get you there.

Unfortunately, the focus was on HSR along a corridor that should have catered to everyday commuters just as much as tourists.  After all, locals work at all those theme parks, hotels, resorts and shopping malls too.  My hope was to get the infrastructure in and once HSR ridership failed to materialize, we'd be forced to revise operations to serve the needs of people who drive the I-4 corridor everyday.

You'd need some things to make it work, like coming off the CSX south of Orlando, so that the line would run on the CSX tracks (Sunrail) then veer off along I-4. You'd need clustering transit buses to meet the train at each stop, and rail connections to Amtrak, as well as St. Petersburg, Brooksville etc... Lastly you would soon need the CSX line anyway as a secondary. You'd need to run into Tampa Union Station, and find a way into Lakelands station at a point where the line might again leave the highway for the rails of CSX. All told, something like that, running THROUGH the Orlando metro would indeed work.

HSR wouildn't work without about half of the above improvements, most of which would slow it down, but load it up. 

As I've said all along, I love HSR but forget it between Tampa and Orlando when that is clearly commuter territory. It all goes to prove that Florida can't plan a workable railroad line.

OCKLAWAHA

If you were preceptive, you knew the game was rigged when FHSR turned what should have been it's primary feeder (Sunrail) into a whipping boy, and created an 'us' against 'them' war, ignored Tampa Union Station, ignored ORLANDO, and ignored Floridians. The only thing it would have gotten fast was bankruptcy, and the operator bouncing back across the pond, never to be heard from again.

Also all of the people pushing or wishing for some sort of Orlando hub are out of touch with railroading, geography and historic travel patterns in Florida. Frankly we'd be better off with a CAL-TRAIN type system of fast frequent corridor trains connecting everyone with the organic hub of the states rail system, from which SEHSR could someday take us on to Washington. Oh that hub? A place they call JACKSONVILLE. 

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: Ocklawaha on July 01, 2011, 11:06:54 PM
You'd need some things to make it work, like coming off the CSX south of Orlando, so that the line would run on the CSX tracks (Sunrail) then veer off along I-4. You'd need clustering transit buses to meet the train at each stop, and rail connections to Amtrak, as well as St. Petersburg, Brooksville etc... Lastly you would soon need the CSX line anyway as a secondary. You'd need to run into Tampa Union Station, and find a way into Lakelands station at a point where the line might again leave the highway for the rails of CSX. All told, something like that, running THROUGH the Orlando metro would indeed work.

HSR wouildn't work without about half of the above improvements, most of which would slow it down, but load it up. 

As I've said all along, I love HSR but forget it between Tampa and Orlando when that is clearly commuter territory. It all goes to prove that Florida can't plan a workable railroad line.

OCKLAWAHA

Both routes have their pros and cons. The CSX corridor hits DT Lakeland and Tampa's Union Station but there's nothing else along the route that would pack in the riders that missed destinations like Seminole Hard Rock Casino, Florida State Fairgrounds, Lakeland Square Mall, USF Poly, Posner Town Center, Celebration, Disney, I-drive/convention center and Florida Mall would.  Historically, it would be great to reopen stations in smaller cities like Plant City, Auburndale, Lake Alfred and Haines City again.  But to be honest all those cities have grown towards I-4 that last 40 years.  So with either route, the majority of the residents would have an equal drive to their nearest station.  In any event, I agree that HSR doesn't make sense if it was just going to run between Tampa and Orlando's airport, but that wasn't the plan.  The plan included a second line to Port Canaveral and down the east coast to West Palm Beach, Ft. Lauderdale and Miami.  That's where the lion's share of HSR riders would have come from.  Given the distance between the cities, commuter rail with limited stop express trains or an Amtrak corridor service should have always been the plan for the entire state.

Regarding Scott's decision on both rail projects:

QuoteHis dramatically different response prompted a harsh reaction from a wide spectrum of critics, ranging from Democrats to staunch Tea Party supporters, who accused him of being hypocritical and caving in to big business.

Scott contended that, while he still had reservations about the 61-mile SunRail commuter line's long-term viability and potential ridership, his hands were tied by how far the project had progressed.

It had been approved by the Legislature and signed into law by former Gov. Charlie Crist.

His lawyers told him that if he blocked the project there was a good chance he would not prevail in court like he did when he turned down high-speed rail.

"In this case they said there was a significant risk that I would lose," Scott said to newspaper editors and reporters attending a conference in St. Petersburg.

http://www.theledger.com/article/20110701/NEWS/110709988?tc=cr

Good to know that MJ is on the dark side again.  8)

I found Mica's comments very interesting as he refered to HENRY FLAGLER, which I take was a thinly veiled push for the FEC RY-AMTRAK deal.  8)

OCKLAWAHA

Quote from: acme54321 on July 01, 2011, 04:16:18 PM

Quote from: FayeforCure on July 01, 2011, 02:18:25 PM
1. One will benefit 2,000 commuters per day (Sunrail), whereas the other primarily relies on tourist ridership of 3 million per year which translates roughly to almost 30,000 riders per day

What 3 Million tourists would be riding HSR between Tampa and Orlando?  I don't see that.  If you're in Orlando for vacation why would you want to go to Tampa?  What is there really to do there? Not much.  I could see people riding it to Cocoa Beach, but they train would have to go right out to the beach.

I thought HSR was for supposedly people commuting from Tampa to Orlando anyway?

Personally I think the first HSR line in FL needs to service the east coast I-95 corridor from Miami to points north out of Florida to bring the tourists in.  If you drive your car on vacation to Florida why would you want to get on a train and ride to Tampa or wherever leaving your car behind?  You wouldn't.

Actually there is things to do in Tampa

What things is there to do in Tampa that you can't do multiple times in Orlando?  Maybe go to the aquarium?

See an actual urban historic city, lol. Orlando is a Lakeland on steroids because of the rat down the street. Btw, i'm sitting in the middle of the parking lot also known as I-4 now.  Sunrail, HSR and any other option to get cars off the streets of this sprawl bug is overdue, imo.

I think that, as the 4th largest state in the U.S., we should be figuring to a larger degree actual commuter traffic within the state. HSR btwn Tampa and Orlando would have been an incredible asset for continued growth in all of Florida. The state is no longer exclusive towards tourism.

Quote from: thelakelander on July 02, 2011, 04:02:03 PM
See an actual urban historic city, lol. Orlando is a Lakeland on steroids because of the rat down the street. Btw, i'm sitting in the middle of the parking lot also known as I-4 now.  Sunrail, HSR and any other option to get cars off the streets of this sprawl bug is overdue, imo.

I hear you lake, Orlando is horrible if you want my opinion.  I just don't see your average out of state disney world tourist wanting to ride a train to Tampa for anything.  They are more interested in Harry Potter and Mickey Mouse.

Tampa would be popular for water or adult-based entertainment. Grown ups want to have fun too. But I agree that the HSR plan had some major flaws by ignoring the needs of the every coummter.

Quote from: jerry cornwell on July 02, 2011, 07:23:13 PM
I think that, as the 4th largest state in the U.S., we should be figuring to a larger degree actual commuter traffic within the state. HSR btwn Tampa and Orlando would have been an incredible asset for continued growth in all of Florida. The state is no longer exclusive towards tourism.

So true! HSR would have been a flagship for Florida at no cost to FL tax-payers.

Rick Scott called it Obama Rail and that is why he rejected it!!!!

QuoteFOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE CONTACT: MICHELLE DeMARCO
JULY 1, 2011 850.487.5833

SENATE DEMOCRATIC LEADER PRO TEM ARTHENIA JOYNER DENOUNCES GOVERNOR SCOTT'S APPROVAL OF SUNRAIL

TALLAHASSEE - Senate Democratic Leader Pro Tem Arthenia Joyner (D-Tampa) on Friday sharply denounced Republican Governor Rick Scott's approval of the $1.2 billion SunRail project, calling it "rank partisan politics at taxpayers' expense."

"Governor Scott used all the right arguments to green light the wrong rail project," Joyner said. "His support had nothing to do with good policy, good logic, or the good of Floridians. But it had everything to do with hypocrisy and allegiance to his Republican brethren."

Earlier this year, Senator Joyner was one of two senators to sue the governor in the state Supreme Court after he rejected $2.4 billion in federal stimulus money to build a state-of-the-art high speed rail system in Florida, part of a nationwide economic recovery package backed by the Obama Administration. The first leg would have linked Tampa to Orlando, creating tens of thousands of desperately needed jobs and alleviating congestion along the heavily traveled I-4 corridor. No state tax dollars would have been required for the project, nor were tax payers liable for future costs.

At that time, Scott claimed he would not support "trying to push our counties into taking an irresponsible act of taking the risk of a high speed rail project."

Which is exactly what the CSX SunRail project Scott approved Friday will do, noted Senator Joyner. "This boondoggle commits millions in state taxpayer dollars for a train that will carry primarily freight, few passengers, and bypasses any service to both Orlando International Airport and Disney World - two prime destinations for tourists and commuters.

"He torpedoed a much needed $2.4 billion high speed rail project, supported by President Obama, that would have benefited taxpayers without costing them a dime, and brought in real ridership dollars and real construction jobs," said Sen. Joyner. "Yet he justifies a train to nowhere, pushed by Republican Congressman John Mica who has received tens of thousands of campaign dollars from interests vested in the CSX project. He committed taxpayers and local communities to hundreds of millions of state dollars in construction costs, overruns, operating losses and potential liability.

"For someone who touts his status as an 'outsider' this decision reeks of an inside political deal. Gov. Scott allowed the questionable interests of a Republican Congressman to trump the best interests of Florida's taxpayers."

###

Michelle DeMarco
Press Secretary
Florida Senate Democratic Office
850-487-5833

Rant all you want Faye, Sunrail is needed far more then the 'flying fantasy Mickey Mouse train' ever was. The ridership numbers are going to prove me right, and if not, then you can laugh and tell the world how I was wrong.

In the first place, you'd have to have Sunrail AND Hart Rail AND Amtrak all physically connecting with HSR in order for it to even have a chance of working between Tampa and Orlando.

You'd have to abandon the dumb end point stations (one at an airport in the edge of civilization and the other in Tampa's version of a parking garage and transit stop) and move them into the heart of the city's or at least the nearest downtown rail terminals.

HSR isn't going to work as a transportation island, so EVERY stop would have to have not just provisions for bus transit, but actual bus transit itself.  Something Florida is woefully lacking. As a Tampa Bay area newspaper found out, going from the parking garage-HSR station in Tampa, to Clearwater took a couple of transfers and half of a day, we'd have to double, then triple, most every bus route that comes close to the train. We'd have to have added hundreds more transit connections. Even then it would fail if those streetcars and buses did not cluster around the station each time a train was due.

Scott might have been determined to kill HSR when he came into office, but in the process he probably guaranteed its survival in many states by not letting Florida commit Seppuku 切腹 on the alter of world class transportation failures.

Faye, I can still get you a deal on those Green Cove Springs to Chiefland HSR tickets.

OCKLAWAHA

Hmmm Ock..........and Sunrail sounds good to you?

It's the CSX sweetheart deal of a lifetime.

And the lies that were told along the way are incredible:

QuoteThe federal government, wary of financing boondoggle projects, has strict rules on how ridership projections are calculated. Florida’s Department of Transportation, mindful of Mr. Mica’s keen interest, looked for ways to push up the number of projected riders, efforts that federal regulators found dubious.

Florida officials, for example, assumed that large numbers of commuters heading from one point in the suburbs to another would be willing to undertake a bus-to-rail-to-bus trip, a travel pattern that federal officials told them “cannot be found on any existing commuter rail service in the United States.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/28/us/politics/28mica.html