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King Street Station and Union Station in Seattle, TWO DEPOTS NOT ONE, this is not a transportation center.
Let's make it official, I'm against the so called JRTC as planned. I'm calling this a disaster... yet ANOTHER disaster brought to us by the good folks over at JTA. 30 years from now I won't be blamed for this - rather I'll be saying "I told you so..." again." FIX IT OR DON'T BUILD IT. Greyhound on Adams? DON'T DO IT AND CALL THIS MESS "A" TRANSPORTATION CENTER, AND DON'T PISS ON MY LEG AND TELL ME IT'S RAINING.
In the old days of pre-1971 passenger trains, different railroads operated different stations. Some would go together and group up in a single station but often a city would have a "Union Station" and a "Terminal Station" and possibly 2 or 3 others. So historically two stations always equals = 2 stations, never call a collection of stations ONE. Going between stations, even if they were close together (Seattle's and Duluth's were across the tracks from eachother) was called a transfer. It often involved a taxi, and almost always involved porters or red caps to move the baggage. Jacksonville with just one grand station remains blissfully ignorant of this historic conundrum, so ignorant in fact that now we perpose to build a system of stations that apes the worst of old Chicago.
The executive director has informed us that Greyhound "insisted" on the location because of the exit and on ramps for I-95. If they did, it's only because we never attempted to sell them on another location, anything else just wouldn't fit our plan.
Giving up all of that land which would have developed commercially under private enterprise had they followed anything like a standard condensed model for the Terminal is just plain stupid.
This thing is sprawled over so much ground that it truly is the size of a small nation (the Vatican) and nearly as large as a second (Monaco).
Having a separate bus station, next to a separate BRT station, next to a city bus station, next to a Skyway station, down the street from Amtrak's station is perhaps the worst decision to come out of JTA since the Skyway itself, only this time it will impact far more people. How much do you want to bet it came from the same planner? Yeah, I thought so.
We need to quit calling it 'The JRTC' because it's NOT 'A' transportation center, it's a collection of neighboring stand alone stations that generally ignore walkability, distroy connectivity, and guarantee dangerous pedestrian crossings all along the street because nobody is going to want to walk the extra 2 blocks to get to and from the elevated sidewalk that they designed to connect it all.
Going from the bus to the train in this new nightmare is within one block of being the same distance one would walk today between Amtrak and Greyhound.,
What is this obsession with elevated structures? Elevated sidewalks? Why would I walk an extra 2 blocks, and go up and down 2 different flights of steps to walk between any two stations, when the street out front is so much shorter? Back to the tunnels? Why are we elevating a concourse over the top of pre existing pedestrian tunnels?
The railroad side will be completely underbuilt serving Amtrak trains which will split here (requires 2 tracks) and 3-4 commuter rail routes (most arrive and depart within minutes of eachother) with just 3 tracks! Must be modern math.
The day this mess is complete will be a sad day in Jacksonville, it will set in stone for the next 100 years that we are the one city that just doesn't get it.
Ignorance is bliss....
OCKLAWAHA
Yes, it has been brought up and I told them pretty much how I see it. They are going to need more pressure.
It was during this grilling that Mike Blaylock spoke up and said the new Greyhound station was really a union bus station for all three - four of the bus lines to the city. That doesn't fix the shotgun plan for the stations.
OCKLAWAHA
Try using analogies in the meeting.
Say they are doing the equivalent of building a O'Hare/JFK/Dullas Airport instead of a Denver/Atlanta Style.
Sure, they are both airports in one location but which airport would you rather transfer fights at? I hear transferring flights at Dullas is a nightmare and they are doing multi-million dollar fixes to fix that mess. In this case, important details like this matter.
If this plan is so bad, why on earth are they doing it this way? ???
Quote from: danem on June 29, 2011, 08:41:19 PM
If this plan is so bad, why on earth are they doing it this way? ???
For the blessing of JTA wisdom, simply look at the Skyway... a ball fumbled in the opponents end zone and a huge case of "I told you so." Deja vu anyone? Same planner...OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2011, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: danem on June 29, 2011, 08:41:19 PM
If this plan is so bad, why on earth are they doing it this way? ???
because some of the biggest contractors in this city are about to go broke, and without a project that has government funding, they will.
Which is basically how it works in every municipality.
The problem is that we don't have a mechanism in place to make sure that the spending is smart as well as sustaining.
So you get a massive project like this, and no one wants to slice the project in terms of dollars because they need the money.
That's not good either. I don't think any business can survive with a bunch of work one year and no work the next. It's like a bubble and a crash every few years.
What's a good fix that can satisfy this problem without sacrificing the transportation center?
First off, THERE IS NO TRANSPORTATION CENTER and what is on the drawing boards is NOT A TRANSPORTATION CENTER. We could consolidate all of the elements of a complete TC in the old 1919 station and use the convention center box space for buses, just south the railroad. Without getting this under one roof we will never have a transporation center. Imagine if JTA designed the airport? There would be a terminal building for Jet Blue, another one down the road for Delta, another for Southwest...etc... ABSOLUTELY INSANE.
OCKLAWAHA
Provide emails and I will get writing.
Seriously this s*** makes me so angry.
I am willing to testify that as a LEGALLY BLIND person, this JTA-proposed plan is actually IN VIOLATION of ADA accessibility. It would be a federal offense.
Trying to go across the crossing myself while the buses are rolling in is like suicidal EVEN if I would use it EVERYDAY to get to work. JTA = FULL LOAD OF CROCK OF S***.
-Josh
Why don't you tell us how you really feel Josh? It's funny because I was just on the Justice Departments website looking for a way to stop this with the ADA! 3 of the 5 streets this thing is sprawled across are freeway ramps where cars regularly are accelrating or decellrating from 60-70 mph, great place to be with a white cane.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 29, 2011, 10:36:51 PM
Why don't you tell us how you really feel Josh? It's funny because I was just on the Justice Departments website looking for a way to stop this with the ADA! 3 of the 5 streets this thing is sprawled across are freeway ramps where cars regularly are accelrating or decellrating from 60-70 mph, great place to be with a white cane.
OCKLAWAHA
PLEASE! Tell me what to do by coming in person, at the council meeting, emails, whatever to get my perspective across to them. We got to be ready for everything they might counter-throw us.
I would be willing to be on a video right now walking across those streets with the white crane and cause cars to steer out of my way, nearly getting hit in the process.
-Josh
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-kppG4SEqEpI/TgvfBmTnZVI/AAAAAAAAFN8/knpNHTu3heA/s800/JRTC%252520TRACK%252520PLAN%252520CONDENSED.jpg)
This is the track plan for the terminal according to JTA/FDOT. Note there are only platforms A/B and tracks 1,2,3.
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-e2H-3qPLGPI/TJt11hCczdI/AAAAAAAAFD0/rdCcImbt09w/s800/jacksonville%252520terminal%252520track%252520plan%2525202010AA.jpg)
Here is a plan for our terminal that is realistic in terms of Amtrak, and Commuter Rail. The lack of track in the JTA plan speaks volumes about their true intent in the rail v brt battles.
OCKLAWAHA
We can carry this on tomorrow, but I'd say we file with the Justice Department and slap them with an ADA complaint, in addition we should file with the Federal Railroad Administration for their idea to remove the fill, lower the tracks under the Lee Street Viaduct dropping the whole rail side into a flood zone, clearly illegal.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: cityimrov on June 29, 2011, 09:37:25 PM
Quote from: stephendare on June 29, 2011, 08:54:10 PM
Quote from: danem on June 29, 2011, 08:41:19 PM
If this plan is so bad, why on earth are they doing it this way? ???
because some of the biggest contractors in this city are about to go broke, and without a project that has government funding, they will.
Which is basically how it works in every municipality.
The problem is that we don't have a mechanism in place to make sure that the spending is smart as well as sustaining.
So you get a massive project like this, and no one wants to slice the project in terms of dollars because they need the money.
That's not good either. I don't think any business can survive with a bunch of work one year and no work the next. It's like a bubble and a crash every few years.
What's a good fix that can satisfy this problem without sacrificing the transportation center?
So who is actually calling the shots on this fiasco? What hold does a local, on the rocks, contractor have on the JTA to justify a waste of money, a signing off on an incomplete or incompetent design and the wholesale disregard for ideas put forth by obviously competent planners, just not on the in-house public payroll.
On a related note, our lame duck city council has exasperated the problem by making financial promises that should not be kept and by voting a land give-a-way that ignores the premise of fiduciary responsibility in stewardship of public property. The get it done now mentality will seriously shortchange what could have been expanding profitable commercial development radiating from the center of a compact Transportation Center rather than a long hike through blocks of rapidly moving traffic.
If the powers that be in the Greyhound Corporation cannot see a shortchange to their operation, somebody in their planning department needs to go back to school. I find it hard to believe that any higher up responsible for operations would NOT be boots on the ground studying the situation and ALL the available plans (not just JTA) before buying in to half baked claims presented as the best thing since white sliced bread.
What is the possibility that the vote could be nullified with new legislation by the incoming council? If the rule has it that there is a 3 year window to get development of the new bus terminal started, what is the big deal with a little more study and education OF the city council members. They each need to take their books and notepads home and DO THE HOMEWORK.
I shall inform Greyhound and the Justice Department, already called on the FRA.
OCKLAWAHA
Quote from: Ocklawaha on June 30, 2011, 11:29:50 AM
I shall inform Greyhound and the Justice Department, already called on the FRA.
OCKLAWAHA
Uncle Ockie,
Feel free to look at this :
http://www.teachamerica.com/roundabouts/RA057A_ppr_Baranowski.pdf (http://www.teachamerica.com/roundabouts/RA057A_ppr_Baranowski.pdf)
http://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6chklist.htm (http://www.ada.gov/pcatoolkit/chap6chklist.htm)
http://www.ada.gov/comprob.htm (http://www.ada.gov/comprob.htm)
It's about ADA Accessibility and pedestrian crossings to see if it can help in our cause. JTA is going to get so screwed over this.
-Josh